DE Sidious vs ROTS Yoda, Mace, Anakin, and Obi Wan

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Palpy isnt that far ahead of Yoda in the force, and not so far ahead of the others that he would defeat them with ease.

As of RotS, he was the most powerful Sith Lord in history. Powerful enough to defeat Yoda. Powerful enough to make Mace Windu - freakishly strong, exceptionally powerful, master of Vaapad - realize that he was being overwhelmed. Powerful enough that Yoda deemed Kenobi too weak to even try and confront him.

By DE, he can create wormholes that rip Luke Skywalker off of one planet and deposit him inside a capital ship. He can create storms that rend the fabric of space-time and can tear the surfaces off of worlds. His mere presence can create a dark taint on an entire planet. His Sith lightning has increased in power and potency to the point that he can casually wipe out dozens of armored soldiers and vaporize lightsabers, experienced Force-users, and large chunks of space age metal. He has mastered every single technique of the dark side and invents some of his own.

He is a notch above Yoda, and the rest can't even compete on any level. Yoda himself, the only one here who could challenge Sidious under his own power, has no shot of actually winning an engagement, only stalling the inevitable.

Obi wan maybe, but killing Obi wan would be all that he would be to get off before the lightsaber combat was engaged. If he was focusing his power on keeping everyone at bay, than even Obi wan would be able to stand his ground for a little while.

For starters, Obi-Wan - with his mastery and control of the Force taken into account - is as much a threat in the Force as Anakin is. In this case that doesn't mean much, but Anakin's effective power is no greater than that of Kenobi's, as proved on Mustafar in their Force-push contest. So if Kenobi can die, so can Anakin, and they both will die almost immediately if Palpatine wills it.

And I explained how the attack against their lightsabers would be questionable at best, in my previous post.

Hell, they don't even have to die (they will). Even a fraction of a second of exposure to Sidious' lightning will take them out of the fight - Dooku's done it more than once, as I've already said, and so can Palpatine.

See above. And Sids cant use stasis or something at the same time as his lightning attack. Its one or the other.

Edit - nevermind.

I'm on an extraordinarily limited timeframe here, so I will not be able to address everyone's arguments until later on tonight. But, as I see, Lightsnake and Faunus have been manhandling GV's argument in the past few hours that there is very little for me to point out other than a few scathing insults for his apparent ignorance and wanton lecturing about bad arguments.

Kotor3, I promise you, I will light into you once I get back, thus concluding your 15 minutes of fame by flame. LS, thank you for the grunt work, and Faunus, I'd like to give you mad props. Even though we've had our disagreements, it is truly amusing to see you kick the ass of someone who agrees with you. You da man.

EDIT: I might quickly address Enyalus's response.

Stop praising people and apologizing and shit. It's kinda scary.

Ah, whatever. *basks in the glory*

EDIT -- And why isn't "shit" censored?

Originally posted by Faunus
Stop praising people and apologizing and shit. It's kinda scary.

Ah, whatever. *basks in the glory*

EDIT -- And why isn't "shit" censored?

I will have no time to address Enyalus's argument. I was going a bit more in depth when I get back.

Enlayus, Kotor3... and should I even bother with GV?

I can't believe you lumped me in with KOTOR3 and GV. *sniffles* I thought I was special to you!!

Originally posted by Enyalus
I want someone who is taking up DE Sids for the win here to address this. And please, don't say something like, "Well, thats your speculation."

Two more things to consider: we don't know that Leia's lightsaber was made out of any kind of metal. Did you see how it looked? And its 10,000 years old ontop of it, so even if it was metal, it would have been worn out clearly.

Secondly, and most importantly, the idea that Palpatine can reduce any of these Jedi lightsabers to ash is absurd.

Palpatine's own saber was made of phrik, which is lightsaber resistant and nearly unbreakable. We don't know that their weapons aren't made of the same.

Furthermore, in Yoda and Sidious' ROTS duel, Yoda loses his balance, exposes the hilt of his lightsaber, and Palpatine hits it with a direct burst of his lightning.

What happens? Nothing. It gets knocked out of his hand, falls hundreds of feet to the Senate floor, and is shown afterwards looking completely fine. Evidence that his lightning cannot simply disintegrate PT era Jedi lightsabers.

Even if it could, they would never be stupid enough to expose the hilt of their weapons like Yoda did, because he was off balance.

Originally posted by Gideon
I'm on an extraordinarily limited timeframe here, so I will not be able to address everyone's arguments until later on tonight. But, as I see, Lightsnake and Faunus have been manhandling GV's argument in the past few hours that there is very little for me to point out other than a few scathing insults for his apparent ignorance and wanton lecturing about bad arguments.

Kotor3, I promise you, I will light into you once I get back, thus concluding your 15 minutes of fame by flame. LS, thank you for the grunt work, and Faunus, I'd like to give you mad props. Even though we've had our disagreements, it is truly amusing to see you kick the ass of someone who agrees with you. You da man.

EDIT: I might quickly address Enyalus's response.

Please hurry and give us some of your time oh great one. Don't compare your invalid arguements to Lightsnake's. Come back and do the one thing you have been good at on this thread and that is entertaining us.

What are your arguments, anyway? From what I've seen they're exactly the same as GV's and Enyalus', and those have been dealt with.

Originally posted by Faunus
What are your arguments, anyway? From what I've seen they're exactly the same as GV's and Enyalus', and those have been dealt with.

Obviously Faunus not everyone is in agreement with your statements. I am not going to repost every statement that has not been addressed, I have a simple question:

Can you or anyone provide an example in which Sidious or DE Sidious was able to kill a powerful Jedi on the level of Anakin and Obi Wan with force lighting? If you can I will concede to that arguement.

If you cannot, then that arguement that they will die quickly due to force lighting should be excluded because one:
How much DE Sidious exceeds ROTS Sidious in power seems to be up for debate.
Two:
If there are no examples then you are speculating which I have been explained to on more than one occassion that this is not acceptable on KMC.

I will be gone for a while. I will come back because I egarly await Gideon responses.

Originally posted by Kotor3
Can you or anyone provide an example in which Sidious or DE Sidious was able to kill a powerful Jedi on the level of Anakin and Obi Wan with force lighting? If you can I will concede to that arguement.

And really, anything that someone like Dooku has done with lightning, Sidious can do as well. The Count regularly knocks people out with lightning, telekinesis, and other more obscure techniques. Sidious, who is tremendously more powerful and infinitely more well-versed in the dark side can do that and so much more.

Plus, Yoda believed that Obi-Wan was to weak to even try and confront Sidious. Obviously, he was right.

If you cannot, then that arguement that they will die quickly due to force lighting should be excluded because one:
How much DE Sidious exceeds ROTS Sidious in power seems to be up for debate.

Two:
If there are no examples then you are speculating which I have been explained to on more than one occassion that this is not acceptable on KMC.

Originally posted by Kotor3
[B]Obviously Faunus not everyone is in agreement with your statements. I am not going to repost every statement that has not been addressed, I have a simple question:

Can you or anyone provide an example in which Sidious or DE Sidious was able to kill a powerful Jedi on the level of Anakin and Obi Wan with force lighting? If you can I will concede to that arguement.

If you cannot, then that arguement that they will die quickly due to force lighting should be excluded because one:
How much DE Sidious exceeds ROTS Sidious in power seems to be up for debate.

Originally posted by Faunus
What are your arguments, anyway? From what I've seen they're exactly the same as GV's and Enyalus', and those have been dealt with.

Pfft, my arguments weren't totally dealt with. Unless you want to say that a machine cutting a lightsaber in half is equal to the mechanism Sidious' lightning would attempt to destroy them.

Also, Leia's lightsaber example - she was standing still and looking stupid, and had very little lightsaber or force defense training at that point. Yoda, in my opinion, was off-balance. Wasn't he scrambling up the pod and attempting to leap before his saber was blasted? Otherwise I don't see any reason why his hand would go flying out to the side.

So ROTS Sidious couldn't disintegrate a saber hilt. Perhaps DE Sidious can. No one can just assume it would happen. They're Jedi. They know how to guard. And know that blocking Force Lightning with your hilt is not the way to go. Even if he blasts Obi-Wan or Anakin at the start, it's not going to last long enough for them to be killed. They'd catch it with their blades, perhaps be either pushed back or thrown back (unlikely), until Yoda or Mace decides to Force Push (or some equally foolish Jedi attack) Sidious away. We saw what Yoda's Force Push can do to ROTS Sidious. And Mace's Force Push is top-notch as well, if the CWC is a credible source. Sidious can't use Force Lightning and Force Shield at the same time. Each takes concentration. If you're focused on one, you aren't on the other. Hell, even when a pre-ANH Sidious (post ROTS by what, 18 years?) was standing face to face and fully prepared, Galen Marek was able to Force Grip Sidious up in the air about 30-40 ft and slam him down.

And like I said before, if he splits the Lightning four ways to hit everyone, Mace's Vaapad and Yoda's Force strength will be able to handle it, and he more than likely wouldn't kill anyone. There's no possible way he wins this match up. At all. It's unlikely he'd even kill more than one member of the team. Two at most.

Originally posted by Faunus
Uh, Mace Windu? Overwhelming Yoda in their first exchange?

Faunus I am quite disappointed that you used Mace and Yoda. I specifly said kill which Sidious did not do to either. Bad examples. Here is an example for you:

ROTJ Vader (who body is weak to force lightning) was able to endure force lightning throughout his body long enough to kill Sidious. Vader did not die immediately.

Originally posted by Faunus

And really, anything that someone like Dooku has done with lightning, Sidious can do as well. The Count regularly knocks people out with lightning, telekinesis, and other more obscure techniques. Sidious, who is tremendously more powerful and infinitely more well-versed in the dark side can do that and so much more. ?

True statement.

Originally posted by Faunus

Plus, Yoda believed that Obi-Wan was to weak to even try and confront Sidious. Obviously, he was right.

This is a good point Faunus. We really do not know how long Obi Wan could last though, but we do know he would lose.

Originally posted by Faunus

To my knowledge, everyone here agrees that DE Sidious is well above his RotS incarnation in power, mastery, and understanding of the Force. The only people who disagree that he can accomplish things that his younger self cannot are those desperately trying to downplay his abilities.

Ok, just something I have notice within threads.

Originally posted by Faunus

Are you serious? Or are you really unaware that everything that goes on in the Versus forum is speculation based on fact? It's not like Bane has ever dueled Mace, or Luke has ever fought Maul. We speculate as to what we believe the outcome of such battles would be.

Yes I am. I fully agree with your statement and no matter how silly it sounds people have told me that speculation is not used here. The point though Faunus is that you are speculating that force lightning will disable or kill Obi Wan and Anakin quickly. DE Sidious might use other techniques such as force drain, but no one has mention other techniques that Sidious might use.

As you can see I have not left yet.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Pfft, my arguments weren't totally dealt with. Unless you want to say that a machine cutting a lightsaber in half is equal to the mechanism Sidious' lightning would attempt to destroy them.

Also, Leia's lightsaber example - she was standing still and looking stupid, and had very little lightsaber or force defense training at that point.

Yoda, in my opinion, was off-balance. Wasn't he scrambling up the pod and attempting to leap before his saber was blasted? Otherwise I don't see any reason why his hand would go flying out to the side.

So ROTS Sidious couldn't disintegrate a saber hilt. Perhaps DE Sidious can. No one can just assume it would happen.

They're Jedi. They know how to guard.

Anakin and Obi-Wan, while formidable in their own right, cannot even slow Sidious' Force-assault. Even in RotS, Yoda could barely handle them, and the novel reveals that Mace himself couldn't handle them.

Even if he blasts Obi-Wan or Anakin at the start, it's not going to last long enough for them to be killed.

They'd catch it with their blades, perhaps be either pushed back or thrown back (unlikely), until Yoda or Mace decides to Force Push (or some equally foolish Jedi attack) Sidious away.

We saw what Yoda's Force Push can do to ROTS Sidious.

Sidious can't use Force Lightning and Force Shield at the same time. Each takes concentration. If you're focused on one, you aren't on the other. Hell, even when a pre-ANH Sidious (post ROTS by what, 18 years?) was standing face to face and fully prepared, Galen Marek was able to Force Grip Sidious up in the air about 30-40 ft and slam him down.

And like I said before, if he splits the Lightning four ways to hit everyone, Mace's Vaapad and Yoda's Force strength will be able to handle it, and he more than likely wouldn't kill anyone.

There's no possible way he wins this match up. At all.

It's unlikely he'd even kill more than one member of the team. Two at most.

Originally posted by Kotor3
Faunus I am quite disappointed that you used Mace and Yoda. I specifly said kill which Sidious did not do to either. Bad examples. Here is an example for you:

ROTJ Vader (who body is weak to force lighting) was able to endure force lighting throughout his body long enough to kill Sidious. Vader did not die immediately.

True statement.

This is a good point Faunus. We really do not know how long Obi Wan could last though, but we do know he would lose.

So not that long.

Yes I am. I fully agree with your statement and no matter how silly it sounds people have told me that speculation is not used here.

The point though Faunus is that you are speculating that force lighting will disable or kill Obi Wan and Anakin quickly. DE Sidious might use other techniques such as force drain, but no one has mention other techniques that Sidious might use.

Originally posted by Faunus
He killed Mace, he should've killed Yoda when he was lying on the ground unconscious. If less than a second of exposure to the Sith Lord's full power was enough to knock him out cold, another few would kill him.

In all seriousness Faunus I do not know what more to argue here. Everyone knows that Mace got his hand cut off was not in a defensive mode and mostly likely cause of death was falling out of a window from a building that was quite high.

Yoda knockout? Sidious ran remember. Yoda was in no danger at all. Sidious survived that fight due to circumstances.

Originally posted by Faunus

Sidious wasn't aiming his lightning at Vader, as can be seen when his hands are facing up and the lightning is arcing back down to Vader.

What should I say here, Vader whole body was engulfed in force lightnting. He had his decapticated arm in Sidious back with force lightning circulating all through Vader's circuits. Yet he was able to do what Luke could not and that is walk to a location and throw Sidious down to his death.

Originally posted by Faunus

Seven seconds to take down three of the greatest swordsmen in the Order, the first of whom was named as one of the greatest "bladesbeings" in the history of the Jedi.

So not that long.

Perhaps not but this is not a one on one situation and has nothing to do with force ligthning.

Originally posted by Faunus

Whoever told you that is completely clueless.

Agreed.

Originally posted by Faunus

That's because, realistically, there're too many to mention. It was said that he mastered every technique of the dark side and created new ones "at his leisure." That's every technique ever used by a dark sider under his or her own power, in the hands of the most powerful Sith Lord to ever live. Plus, he has an incredible knowledge of the Jedi techniques, since he took everything from the Archives and Temple once the Jedi were ransacked.

Faunus a few mention could have probably closed out this discussion in Sidious favor. Please mention any that could be used and I will concede. I stated this along time ago in this thread.

I am leaving now so I will be back later. Still waiting on my boy Gideon.

Originally posted by Kotor3
In all seriousness Faunus I do not know what more to argue here. Everyone knows that Mace got his hand cut off was not in a defensive mode and mostly likely cause of death was falling out of a window from a building that was quite high.

The point that I believe Faunus is trying to make is that Mace barely able to block the lightning as the novel states his blade was pushed so far back that he choking on it is ozone. Then there is the fact that Sidious suddenly stopped his lightning and pretended to show weakness.

Yoda knockout? Sidious ran remember. Yoda was in no danger at all. Sidious survived that fight due to circumstances.

Yoda was knocked back during the begining of the duel by Sidious's lightning. Yoda was in danger of losing he was never safe in the fight. The circumstances of Yoda's lost is that he reached is limit and was too slow as the novel states here in this passage

The shadow could feel how much it cost the little green freak to bend back his lightnings into the cage of energy that enclosed them both; the creature had reached the limits of his strength.The shadow released its power for an instant, long enough only to whirl away through the air and alight upon one of the delegation pods as it flew past, and the creature leapt to follow-Half a second too slow.

The shadow unleashed its lightning while the creature was still in the air, and the little green freak took its full power. The shock blasted him backward to crash against the podium, and he fell.

He fell a long way.

This fight could have gone either way but Yoda was destined to lose. Sidious used the landscape to his advantage and there is nothing wrong with that. Yoda essentially chose the dueling area and it hurt him in the end tough luck for him that he coudln't hang on.

Originally posted by Faunus
Doesn't really matter. Anakin and Obi-Wan aren't nearly powerful enough to fend off Palpatine's lightning. End of story.

For any length of time, absolutely. But they are certainly capable of blocking his lightning with their sabers, which may or may not either push them back or knock them back. It's hardly going to rip through a plasma saber blade.

You can check it on Youtube if you're that unsure. Yoda jumps up, lands on the pod, saber in hand. He's in a ready stance, he's not unbalanced. He's fine. And then Sidious knocks the weapon out of his hand with a lightning blast and they start their little contest, and then Yoda's probably struggling with balance.

You might be right. I'm too lazy to go and look. 😉 (Your avatar and all.) Nevertheless, by ROTS he wasn't able to disintegrate lightsabers. We've got that down - so I'll let this line of thought drop.

And for the third or fourth time, you ignore that he completely disintegrated a chunk of metal considerably larger and more massive than a lightsaber hilt, plus the fact that he's already done it.

Did it to a 10,000 year old lightsaber in poor condition (as is stated in the comic by Palpatine himself) without Leia attempting to do anything to stop it. Him disintegrating the large chunk of metal is probably enough indication to confim he could do it to the PT Jedi lightsabers. But then again, Force shields, combat stances, and the fact that they're going to attempt to block it with thei blades and not their hilts makes it highly unlikely that he'd be able to in a battle situation.

Sure they do. That's why when a BM'd Farfalla tried to put up a Force-barrier to stop Bane's lightning, it was simply torn through.

You can't just spin the facts the way you want so that it leaves out the most important details. The same lightning that vaporized 3 beastriders, that practically charred drexls, and that ripped through Farfalla's shields while coming at him in a dozen arcs, were all caught by Raskta's spinning blades and absorbed. Proof that incredibly powerful, ROTS-esque Sidious-like Lightning can be parried with a mere lightsaber. And easily.

Anakin and Obi-Wan, while formidable in their own right, cannot even slow Sidious' Force-assault. Even in RotS, Yoda could barely handle them, and the novel reveals that Mace himself couldn't handle them.

See above.

Considering, again, that Yoda and Mace were at one point or another overwhelmed by a far weaker Palpatine's lightning, these two would get bowled over, knocked out, or simply ripped apart on the spot.

Yeah, when Yoda wasn't expecting it, when Yoda had to face it with his bare hands, and when Mace was missing an arm and his force shielding and Vaapad concentration were broken. Nice examples. Yoda with a saber + his shielding = Palpatine's lightning not doing a whole lot.

And we've seen what that same Sidious' lightning can do to Yoda - knock him out for several seconds and later almost overload his defenses.

Yet, it didn't kill Yoda in an instant, as you and Gideon claim it can. It didn't kill Mace Windu when he took it's full force point blank. The fall did that. It didn't kill Vader immediately. It didn't kill Luke (granted, he wanted to drag it out). It also didn't kill General Kota (see The Force Unleashed 1-Shot comic, page 112). PT Jedi must be tough, huh?

Passage, pics?

I don't have a scanner, so unfortunately I can't post the pics. It's shown in The Force Unleashed 1-Shot, though. Page 115. (By the way, Sidious is drawn horribly in it.)

Really? Then explain to me how the Jedi are going to win if he starts off by focusing all of his energies on Mace, whose Vaapad is the only thing that can really allow any of these guys to kill the Sith Lord. Or what about Yoda, who happens to be their most powerful teammate and the only one who can stand against Sidious' Force power for more than a few seconds? No, it's a very real possibility that, with a little planning and proper execution, Sidious could take this.

If he focuses on any single opponent, the others are either going to 1) rush him, or 2) use a Force attack of their own to interrupt him. Furthermore, if he used Force Lightning on Yoda, it's unlikely that it would even immediately kill him (as I've listed several defenseless Jedi he's done so to who have survived, and Yoda will be far from defenseless here.) Ditto with Mace if he is submerged in Vaapad. Now if he isn't, there is a strong possibility he dies. But there's also a strong possibility that Yoda uses a Force Push or TK to interrupt him, or the three other members of the team rush forward to cross blades while he's distracted.

And I'm sure you'll eventually come up with something that shows Anakin and Obi-Wan can defend against the infinite number of Force-attacks he can throw at them, because again, lightning is far from being his only tool of destruction. Any manner of telekinesis, any ancient Jedi or Sith technique, anything he came up with himself...

In combat, he shows TK, Force Lightning, and Force Storm. That's all the evidence we have, that's what we should go on. What we can prove he can do in combat. You acknowledge that the quote in Dark Side Sourcebook (?) is ridiculous.

I also thought you agreed that the Jedi would win. What's up with that? You sound like you're giving Sidious a reasonable shot now, when he clearly has none. No member of this team is going to just stand there, twiddling their thumbs while one of their own is struggling to combat the effects of Force Lightning. I've also given five examples of when Sidious using his lightning against powerful Force opponents did not instantly kill, or kill period, them. These combatants are fully capable of fending off his Force attacks, at least for a few moments. Anakin and Obi-Wan might be the exception there, with TK or Force Grip and the like - but again, if he concentrates on one or two opponents here, he's going to be counterattacked via the Force or sabers. He won't have enough time to kill, unless he manages to take one or two of them with him in the saber duel.

I'm back.

I have six or seven arguments to address, but I want to save time and space by addressing common points and themes throughout my opposition's posts. For the record, I would like to state that I am not going to be particularly kind since each and every one of you (minus Faunus) seem to be unwilling to read or accept valid evidence from the source material. As far as Faunus's seeming anti-Jedi arguments are concerned, he doesn't disagree with the outcome you share, he disagrees with the ridiculous syllogism you use. Since you all seem unwilling to actually read and move on, don't expect me to be particularly nice about this. For the record: being intentionally dense is neither charming nor amusing; it is the very essence of stupidity and may God have mercy on your wretched souls.

Let us begin:

In regards to the claim that Obi-Wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker will be challenging opponents:

In lightsaber combat only (as I have stated numerous times before, were this a sheer lightsaber match, the Emperor would be annihilated to an unquantifiable degree). Numerous sources have given us accolades of how effective Kenobi and Skywalker were as a duo, how well they knew one another's moves and styles and could complement their strengths and weaknesses. Yet, Revenge of the Sith displayed that they were coordinated only to fight large numbers of enemies, not an individual gifted with the strength of the dark side of the Force -- something Count Dooku observes and muses verbatim. Despite being pushed back, desperate, and on the verge of total shut down, Dooku manages to easily toss Kenobi aside twice throughout the duel via telekinesis; the second time he does this, he also simultaneously incapacitates Skywalker through his greater command of the Force.

Here, we are dealing with Emperor Palpatine circa Dark Empire. Not only is he the greatest proponent of self preservation, but he is more powerful than the Count many times over. It is not up for debate. So, if Dooku was able to defeat/incapacitate them with the Force in a state of desperation, what the hell makes you think that they'd somehow be able to resist the Force as commanded by a vastly more powerful opponent?

Conclusion: they can't and you're being completely ridiculous.

In regards to Palpatine's knowledge of the Force:

The Dark Empire sourcebook has already confirmed it (thank you, Faunus), in addition to this little nugget provided by Publius:

As noted earlier, Palpatine must have become a Sith Lord no later than 23 BrS or so, being apprenticed to Darth Plagueis, whom he betrayed and murdered in order to become the reigning Sith Master, devoting an extraordinary amount of time and effort into study; the Dark Empire Sourcebook mentions that after becoming Galactic Emperor he "gathered the greatest works of knowledge from over a million worlds" and "studied the Force in all its guises throughout the galaxy, whether it was the shamanism of the Jarvashqiine or the tales of the Tyia," to the point that "he had long ago gone beyond any knowledge to be found in the recovered teachings of the Krath or the Heresiarchs." In The New Essential Guide to Characters, the scribe writes that "Palpatine was known to have studied [the Sorcerers of Tund] prior to their destruction." In Revenge of the Sith it is said that "wherever darkness dwelled, the shadow [Sidious] could send perception"; his own Sith Apprentice, Darth Tyranus, described him as "an event horizon," "absolute, perfect nothingness," "darkness beyond darkness," and "a black hole of the Force."

...Palpatine's knowledge of the Force is broader and deeper than any singular individual's in the whole of canon. Accept it and move on.

In regards to Palpatine and his ability to disintegrate lightsabers:

In Dark Empire, he used the Force (not lightning) to disintegrate Princess Leia's lightsaber rather casually. As Faunus has also pointed out, he was also able to disintegrate an object of much greater mass and weight with equal disregard. As to why he was unable to do it in the prequel trilogy? There is roughly thirty years between the prequel trilogy and Dark Empire. Common sense, please.

In regards to Palpatine and Force lightning:

Palpatine, in Revenge of the Sith, demonstrated the ability to knock out the most powerful Jedi in history with a single burst. And later casually disarmed that same Jedi Master with a single gout. Moreover, despite Mace Windu's incredible physique (which is great enough that he could destroy entire armies of super battle droids with his bare hands), his greater position (he was standing over the Dark Lord), armed with a lightsaber, submerged in Vaapad (that gave him access to a superconducting loop), he was still nearly killed by the Emperor who was: a.) on his ass, b.) in incredible pain, and c.) feigned weakness. In the original trilogy, Palpatine obliterates an entire batallion of stormtroopers and disintegrates Sith acolytes casually. In Dark Empire, he mortally wounds Jedi with instantaneous blasts in a time when he is "barely able to walk" and where each usage of the Force "brings him closer to death."

Conclusion: the Jedi can't handle his lightning with or without a lightsaber. Accept it and move on.

Stop being morons.