Originally posted by Gideon
Palpatine is the pinnacle of self preservation (so long as he doesn't need to use himself as bait a la Coruscant or Endor) and would likely remove Kenobi and Skywalker from the fight in an effortless sweep of the Force.
Except for the fact that that's an outright lie. Perhaps it was during Revenge of the Sith, but as you're so fond of reminding me, this is Dark Empire Sidious. Against Galen Marek on the Death Star, Palpatine tells Marek to strike him down. Again in Return of the Jedi, Palpatine taunts Luke into striking him down. He's nonchalant about it each time. Then in Dark Empire (at the back of the comics, the author's text) we find out why - because he didn't care if he lived or died at that point - he'd just inhabit one of his clone bodies. He does the same thing yet again in Dark Empire itself - taunting Luke into striking him down while still in his decayed and ravaged body. So if anything, post-ROTS he's shown a willingness, even an urge, to die. Why? Because it won't do him any harm. It's essentially an upgrade.
Originally posted by Gideon
It would seem fairly common sense to casually eliminate the weakest of the bunch before they could capitalize on a position to become a threat to him, does it not? The man's a genius, after all. None of his enemies are.
Common sense, yeah. But does DE Sidious demonstrate that kind of combat sense? Let's take a look:
He was able to easily dismiss Leia early on in Dark Empire by waving his hand and disintegrating her lightsaber. He also uses Force Lightning to knock her out. He makes all of this look painfully easy. During the final duel in the series, he's dueling Luke in sabers while Leia stands on watching. Clearly, he waves his hand and knocks Leia unconscious before she can become a threat or screw up his plans to fully turn Luke to the Dark Side. Except, wait - he doesn't. He doesn't bother with he at all, and allows her to go into battle meditation. Even while she's in this state, he doesn't attempt to do anything to her. And guess what? He loses to Luke because of the battle meditation boost he had gotten.
Now, that was a serious threat. And if Palpatine is such a genius, why didn't he deal with it before his downfall? The conclusion - his supreme arrogance. He might have had to worry about staying alive and preserving himself during Revenge of the Sith, but circa Dark Empire he is functionally immortal, and that must seriously play havoc with a Sith Lords combat instincts.
Two brand new arguments for you to dance around, Gideon. If you don't want to, that's understandable as well. And if by some miracle you manage to find a satisfactory explanation as to why Sidious wouldn't show the same blunt battle stupidity that he does in Dark Empire, then you win, because I can't think of any more valid reasons to make you see that Sidious loses this battle - hard.
One would hope that certain individuals would have the presence of mind to not confuse arrogance with stupidity. Can arrogance result in miscalculations that were forseeable and ironic? Certainly. But Palpatine's status as a genius is unquestionable, and though he may have miscalculated, that does not make him stupid.
One would hope that certain individuals would have the presence of mind to not confuse calculated attempts at seducing one's prey to the dark side as a lifelong death wish. Palpatine's goal was to ensnare Galen Marek as a replacement for Darth Vader; nothing indicates that Palpatine, laughing casually after being electrocuted and hurled into the ceiling, would have actually allowed Galen to execute the swing. Notice that, in the other scenario you propose, Palpatine clearly counted on Darth Vader to interfere before Skywalker could strike him; he's hardly going to actually let himself die to acquire an apprentice. In this scenario, he is not trying to ensnare Kenobi or Skywalker or Yoda or Windu. He is trying to kill them. Curious how your "new arguments" carry your old mistakes.
Thank you for reminding me why I put you on ignore in the first place. We are done, for good. Back on ignore you go.
Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
Yep *wink wink* and it kinda got interesting, but that is enough for now.
Heh.
I gotta say, though. The debate in this thread was practically the most aggressive debate I have ever seen... well, a debate that doesn't involve Nebaris, in any case.
Btw, Arnold, do you think Sidious will take this one? Because I find it hard to believe he will.
One would hope that certain individuals wait until they've won their debate until resuming their arrogant and gloating attitude over someone who's points still hold validity.
Originally posted by Gideon
One would hope that certain individuals would have the presence of mind to not confuse calculated attempts at seducing one's prey to the dark side as a lifelong death wish. Palpatine's goal was to ensnare Galen Marek as a replacement for Darth Vader; nothing indicates that Palpatine, laughing casually after being electrocuted and hurled into the ceiling, would have actually allowed Galen to execute the swing. Notice that, in the other scenario you propose, Palpatine clearly counted on Darth Vader to interfere before Skywalker could strike him; he's hardly going to actually let himself die to acquire an apprentice.
Your statement is complete speculation. Completely false speculation, at that.
This is from issue 2 of Dark Empire, from the omniscient writer to the reader of the comic:
"The Emperor's confidence rested on a sure knowledge of what he had become...and what the Dark Side could do for him. He seemed open to all possibilities at the moment: Luke's death, Vader's death...even his own death! No matter what the outcome of this terrible confrontation, he, Emperor Palpatine, would conquer.
And now we know, at that fateful moment the Emperor already possessed a great secret: he was utterly unafraid to die, because death could lay no claim on him!
When Darth Vader hurled Emperor Palpatine to his doom, it seemed to Luke and the Alliance that the rule of Darkness had come to an end. But in that moment when flashing blue energy rushed from exploded flesh, the Emperor entered a bodiless transitional state. As conscious Dark Force he was transported across the galaxy..
In the clone labs on Byss, a young emperor opened his eyes...and laughed. He had won. The empire would survive."
Clearly, in his Dark Empire incarnation, he does not care if he dies, because it means nothing to him. He doesn't wave his hand and take Leia out of their fight before she uses battle meditation to help Luke's duel, nor does he during. And after one of his hands is severed, he does not use his free hand and Force Lightning Leia or Luke while they are in a meditative state attempting to Force Sever him, nor does he wave his hand and dismiss either one of them.
You see, I've provided factual, actual evidence of not what he can do - dismissing all other circumstances - but what he will do based on what he's already done. And it is not in DE Sidious' character to worry about removing two potential low-level threats to him so that he has an even chance against Mace and Yoda. You clearly didn't take into account Palpatine's psychological state. Based on all evidence, he's not going to give a damn if Obi-Wan and Anakin are in this fight, because of his supreme arrogance and his certainty that death has no claim over him.
The entire foundation of your argument for Sidious winning, "DUDE HE WAVEZ HIS HAND AND POOF LULZ," is false. Because DE Sidious has shown that it isn't in his nature to worry about such things. He should have dealt with Leia both times. Or Luke during the Force Sever. He doesn't. Even though they both stand there, side by side, seemingly defenseless. Even if he doesn't want to kill them, it is within his ability to incapacitate them. He chooses not to. And even though Luke had already defeated him and cut his hand off. If that doesn't qualify as 'threatening,' nothing does. He was taunting them until the very end when he's cut off from the Force, exactly like he taunts Yoda in their fight, exactly how he taunts Galen, exactly how he taunts Luke both times. It's in Palpatine's nature, as of DE, to simply not give a damn. He won't remove Obi-Wan and Anakin instantly because that's the smart thing to do - what does survival of Palpatine's current body mean to him when he has a nigh-limitless supply of clone bodies to inhabit?
Nothing. Exactly like what your argument comes to. Now if you're going to debate with me, please try to keep it civil and use all the facts, not just the ones that suit your fancy.
Originally posted by EnyalusExcept for the fact that that's an outright lie. Perhaps it was during Revenge of the Sith, but as you're so fond of reminding me, this is Dark Empire Sidious. Against Galen Marek on the Death Star, Palpatine tells Marek to strike him down.
Again in Return of the Jedi, Palpatine taunts Luke into striking him down. He's nonchalant about it each time.
Then in Dark Empire (at the back of the comics, the author's text) we find out why - because he didn't care if he lived or died at that point - he'd just inhabit one of his clone bodies. He does the same thing yet again in Dark Empire itself - taunting Luke into striking him down while still in his decayed and ravaged body. So if anything, post-ROTS he's shown a willingness, even an urge, to die. Why? Because it won't do him any harm. It's essentially an upgrade.
Common sense, yeah. But does DE Sidious demonstrate that kind of combat sense? Let's take a look:He was able to easily dismiss Leia early on in Dark Empire by waving his hand and disintegrating her lightsaber. He also uses Force Lightning to knock her out. He makes all of this look painfully easy. During the final duel in the series, he's dueling Luke in sabers while Leia stands on watching. Clearly, he waves his hand and knocks Leia unconscious before she can become a threat or screw up his plans to fully turn Luke to the Dark Side. Except, wait - he doesn't. He doesn't bother with he at all, and allows her to go into battle meditation.
Even while she's in this state, he doesn't attempt to do anything to her. And guess what? He loses to Luke because of the battle meditation boost he had gotten.
Now, that was a serious threat. And if Palpatine is such a genius, why didn't he deal with it before his downfall? The conclusion - his supreme arrogance.
He might have had to worry about staying alive and preserving himself during Revenge of the Sith, but circa Dark Empire he is functionally immortal, and that must seriously play havoc with a Sith Lords combat instincts.
This is ridiculous. I wasn't aware that Gideon needed help from Faunus and Lightsnake in a debate. Here's a thought, LS - since you agree that the team would win, why don't you come up with some points that Faunus or I haven't thought of and see if you can do any better? Unless Gideon's intimidated you into not refuting him here as well, even though its evident that he's completely wrong.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
He does the same thing to Luke. It's a TAUNT. If Galen went to cut Palpatine down, he'd give in to the Dark Side and Palp would win...That's not because he doesn't care if he dies, it means a total victory for him. Plenty of eivl guys go with the 'strike me down' stuff, when their deaths are more permanent
Nice strawman, but unfortunately it isn't really relevant at all. "He was utterly unafraid to die," this coming from the writer of the Dark Empire arc. I would say that his opinion is the officially recognized one and trumps yours.
'Urge?' In DE, he says the process is almost unbearably painful and he knows it's not something to be done lightly. Why would he even want to lose the fight here?
Urge, yes. You read DE you so know. Do you recall how he initially gets into that young clone body? But again, nice strawman. I never claimed he wants to lose the fight. But he literally doesn't care if his body is destroyed. So he isn't going to take the time to think, "Hey, I have a better chance at winning if I remove Obi-Wan and Anakin from the battle for a few moments by tossing them somewhere with a wave of my hand." From everything shown in TFU, ROTJ, and DE, it's clear that he doesn't care about his personal safety. Especially when you realize that he used himself as bait on the Death Star in ROTJ, knowing that the entire Rebel Alliance fleet would be attempting to destroy it. Body-double, anyone? Misinformation? No. Supreme arrogance. And it won't be any different here in this battle.
Furthermore, did you seriously use the justification, "Palpatine won't want to die because it hurts."? This might come as a surprise, but so does being trapped in a rotting and decaying body, that as of ANH everytime he uses his Force Lightning he's barely able to stand afterwards. And since when is pain a deterrent to the Sith? They feed on pain. Darth Maul said "There is no pain where strength lies." Which is a teaching he would have learned from Sidious himself.
This is misrepresenting it completely. In the audiobook, Leia is NOT using BM, she merely clears away the shadows from Luke's mind
I've only read the comic, but even should that be true, she was still assisting him. And Palpatine still wanted Luke as an apprentice. What better way to piss Luke off and make him use his anger than to harm - or look like he's harming - Leia. There is no reason why he does nothing to her during their confrontation. And what is the excuse you or Gideon will come up with for him attempting to do nothing to either her or Luke when they begin to glow and attempt to sever his connection to the Force? It's clear that his newfound power went to his head. He thought he could survive Luke and Leia, underestimated them, and lost.
The outcome won't be any different here.
Oh, more proof that Sidious' lightning doesn't instantly kill powerful Force users - in The Force Unleashed Sidious intends to hit Kota with yet another gout of Force Lightning, wanting to kill him and bring out Galen's anger. Galen jumps in front, taking the full force of his blast at point blank range and rechannels it back into The Emperor himself. Post ROTS Sidious.
Originally posted by Enyalus
This is ridiculous. I wasn't aware that Gideon needed help from Faunus and Lightsnake in a debate. Here's a thought, LS - since you agree that the team would win, why don't you come up with some points that Faunus or I haven't thought of and see if you can do any better? Unless Gideon's intimidated you into not refuting him here as well, even though its evident that he's completely wrong.
I'm refuting points I think are heavily inaccurate. On either side
Nice strawman, but unfortunately it isn't really relevant at all. "He was utterly unafraid to die," this coming from the writer of the Dark Empire arc. I would say that his opinion is the officially recognized one and trumps yours.
Urge, yes. You read DE you so know. Do you recall how he initially gets into that young clone body? But again, nice strawman. I never claimed he wants to lose the fight. But he literally doesn't care if his body is destroyed. So he isn't going to take the time to think, "Hey, I have a better chance at winning if I remove Obi-Wan and Anakin from the battle for a few moments by tossing them somewhere with a wave of my hand." From everything shown in TFU, ROTJ, and DE, it's clear that he doesn't care about his personal safety.
And he'd want to WIN. Kill his enemies. Why wouldn't he care about that, exactly? This is a vs. fight, is it not?
Especially when you realize that he used himself as bait on the Death Star in ROTJ, knowing that the entire Rebel Alliance fleet would be attempting to destroy it. Body-double, anyone?
Misinformation? No. Supreme arrogance. And it won't be any different here in this battle.
Furthermore, did you seriously use the justification, "Palpatine won't want to die because it hurts."? This might come as a surprise, but so does being trapped in a rotting and decaying body, that as of ANH everytime he uses his Force Lightning he's barely able to stand afterwards.
I'm asking why he'd forgo victory for no good reason to put himself through horrible agony later on rather than just win the fight and skip that part?
And since when is pain a deterrent to the Sith? They feed on pain. Darth Maul said "There is no pain where strength lies." Which is a teaching he would have learned from Sidious himself.
I've only read the comic, but even should that be true, she was still assisting him. And Palpatine still wanted Luke as an apprentice. What better way to piss Luke off and make him use his anger than to harm - or look like he's harming - Leia.
There is no reason why he does nothing to her during their confrontation.
And what is the excuse you or Gideon will come up with for him attempting to do nothing to either her or Luke when they begin to glow and attempt to sever his connection to the Force? It's clear that his newfound power went to his head. He thought he could survive Luke and Leia, underestimated them, and lost.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Most Jedi are utterly unafraid of death. Does this mean they're not going to defend themselves?
Another strawman? This is irrelevant.
Since then he'd switched clones a few times so he's fully alright with Luke killing him.
Precisely. And since this is also DE Sidious, he wouldn't care if his body was destroyed in this senario, either.
The Alliance had the information for that. Palpatine had every reason to think the rebel Fleet would be obliterated there, too.
Right. Yes he did. So, tell me the reason why he needed to use himself as bait then, instead of getting a body double or simply spreading the rumor that he would be there? Yes. Arrogance. That's the only reason. It is Palpatine's M.O.
Umm...Palpatine's arrogant, sure, but he'd save any toying until he's whittled the team down as not to be a danger.
And that's why he rushed and engaged the four Council members sent to arrest him in a duel immediately? Do you even see what I'm pointing out. He's not going to wave his hand and dismiss one or two from the fight. He's too confident in his abilities. It's even one of his maxims:
"How can one who doesn't believe in his own powers stand against the power of another? It is impossible."
I'm asking why he'd forgo victory for no good reason to put himself through horrible agony later on rather than just win the fight and skip that part?
Ask Sidious that. It's simply the way he thinks. It's his psychology. He's not going to eliminate Obi-Wan and Anakin immediately. I've given you and Gideon specific examples of his arrogance and why he would not do this, and I get speculation like your arguments above in return? Post some hard evidence. Or better yet, simply watch the fight in Palpatine's Senate chamber against the team sent to arrest him. He's even more powerful now, and more arrogant - as I've shown.
Because he COULDN'T?
No? He can't stretch out his arm and shoot another gout of lightning to interrupt their concentration? How pitiful.
Lightsnake I would like to have your view on this. I not going to address the silly responses from Gideon who is in denial. Faunus gave a good description on how the Jedi could win but not for Sidious.
Here is my view of the fight and I would like your thoughts. In ROTS Sidious did not feel threaten when the Jedi approach him to arrest him. Instead of using force attacks he engaged in a saber fight. This I attribute to Sidious arrogance, which every sith has.
Dooku used force attacks on Yoda, Anakin and Obi Wan in Star Wars Episode II: Attack of the Clones to show that he had become more powerful and than any of them could imagine. They already new he was a skilled swordsman.
Unlike Dooku and just like Sidious did in ROTS, I believe DE Sidious would engage the jedi in a saber duel, since he will not feel threaten by them due to his arrogance now that he is younger and stronger.
Sidious only used force against Yoda to show him his power and also since he was threaten by him. As everyone has agreed a saber fight would be Sidious doom.
Now let us say Sidious starts of using force attacks, (I am not going to get into the debate about the power of his force lightning or storm) Sidious could definitely win if what is said about him knowing dark techniques of old is true.
If DE Sidious knows force drain I do not see how the Jedi would survive that since I do not know of a case if which it has been defended. Also I do not think the Jedi would be aware of that technique.
I have asked for other force techniques Sidious could used but have not received any answers. Do you know some Lightsnake? For the record I agree with GV and Enyalus on this subject. DE Sidious would lose due to his arrogance which would lead him into a saber duel.
All that typing and it seem that Enyalus already said this.
Originally posted by Enyalus
Another strawman? This is irrelevant.
Precisely. And since this is also DE Sidious, he wouldn't care if his body was destroyed in this senario, either.
Right. Yes he did. So, tell me the reason why he needed to use himself as bait then, instead of getting a body double or simply spreading the rumor that he would be there? Yes. Arrogance. That's the only reason. It is Palpatine's M.O.
And that's why he rushed and engaged the four Council members sent to arrest him in a duel immediately? Do you even see what I'm pointing out. He's not going to wave his hand and dismiss one or two from the fight. He's too confident in his abilities. It's even one of his maxims:
Ask Sidious that. It's simply the way he thinks. It's his psychology. He's not going to eliminate Obi-Wan and Anakin immediately. I've given you and Gideon specific examples of his arrogance and why he would not do this, and I get speculation like your arguments above in return?
Post some hard evidence. Or better yet, simply watch the fight in Palpatine's Senate chamber against the team sent to arrest him.
He's even more powerful now, and more arrogant - as I've shown.
No? He can't stretch out his arm and shoot another gout of lightning to interrupt their concentration? How pitiful.
The Dark Side Sourcebook says he knows every Dark Side power, and has invented new ones (such as Force Storm). A few of his attack options with the Force would be: Force Lightning, Force Choke, Force Crush, Force Drain, Life Drain [Malak uses both at once], Force Horror, and probably several I'm forgetting.
The problem is that he doesn't ever show such a variety. He uses Force Drain on Byss, but over years and not all at once, certainly not as an offensive technique. Considering the limited number of Jedi he's fought, it's plausible that he would have difficulty performing it on them in combat, even though he's Force abilities are much greater.
For instance, if I said "I'm fluent in French," but time and again all you've heard me say is "Je ne sais pas." Well, there's nothing to conclusively prove I can say more, especially when confronted with a native French speaker.
I know your question was addressed to LS. I just wanted to get my opinion in there to see how LS's might compare.
EDIT: Lemme respond to this here, briefly:
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Where he instantly slaughtered three quarters of his enemies?
Not by waving his hand. And not with the Force.
he was able to rush and eliminate three from the fight with Mace, two here seems less than a stretch and his intentions there are questionable anyways. If he does the same here, how are Anakin and Obi-wan surviving for a moment?
Obi-Wan probably won't. Anakin though was described as one of the fastest and strongest Jedi alive. I think he'd be able to parry enough to be a help in the fight, especially with Yoda and Mace there. But again, I'm disputing Palpatine instantly owning the two with the Force, which I've shown isn't what he typically does. It isn't his style.
No, you haven't shown it, Enyalus. I've explained exactly why it was. Again: In a vs. fight, we assume parties will fight to win
Yes, of course they're both out to win. But in vs. fights we also take into account the psychology of the combatants. Which is why anytime there is a fight involving Anakin we have to specify whether he's in the zone or not, or if he's conflicted as on Mustafar or in ROTJ. Psychology matters. And Palpatine's shown he doesn't give a damn if his body is destroyed, and he's shown no proof that he would attempt to kill or remove Anakin and Obi-Wan by waving his effing hand.
Originally posted by Enyalus
The Dark Side Sourcebook says he knows every Dark Side power, and has invented new ones (such as Force Storm). A few of his attack options with the Force would be: Force Lightning, Force Choke, Force Crush, Force Drain, Life Drain [Malak uses both at once], Force Horror, and probably several I'm forgetting.The problem is that he doesn't ever show such a variety. He uses Force Drain on Byss, but over years and not all at once, certainly not as an offensive technique. Considering the limited number of Jedi he's fought, it's plausible that he would have difficulty performing it on them in combat, even though he's Force abilities are much greater.
For instance, if I said "I'm fluent in French," but time and again all you've heard me say is "Je ne sais pas." Well, there's nothing to conclusively prove I can say more, especially when confronted with a native French speaker.
I know your question was addressed to LS. I just wanted to get my opinion in there to see how LS's might compare.
Appreicated! Those who supported Sidious did not even state those techniques when I asked them to or give examples as to how he would use them here. Actually isn't Malak the only person we know to use Force Drain and Life Drain at the same time?
Originally posted by Enyalus
The Dark Side Sourcebook says he knows every Dark Side power, and has invented new ones (such as Force Storm). A few of his attack options with the Force would be: Force Lightning, Force Choke, Force Crush, Force Drain, Life Drain [Malak uses both at once], Force Horror, and probably several I'm forgetting.
The problem is that he doesn't ever show such a variety. He uses Force Drain on Byss, but over years and not all at once, certainly not as an offensive technique. Considering the limited number of Jedi he's fought, it's plausible that he would have difficulty performing it on them in combat, even though he's Force abilities are much greater.
There is zero reason to expect he won't rip loose with high level Force powers if he truly believes his life in danger against multiple enemies
For instance, if I said "I'm fluent in French," but time and again all you've heard me say is "Je ne sais pas." Well, there's nothing to conclusively prove I can say more, especially when confronted with a native French speaker.
I know your question was addressed to LS. I just wanted to get my opinion in there to see how LS's might compare.EDIT: Lemme respond to this here, briefly:
Not by waving his hand. And not with the Force.
Obi-Wan probably won't. Anakin though was described as one of the fastest and strongest Jedi alive. I think he'd be able to parry enough to be a help in the fight, especially with Yoda and Mace there. But again, I'm disputing Palpatine instantly owning the two with the Force, which I've shown isn't what he typically does. It isn't his style.
Yes, of course they're both out to win. But in vs. fights we also take into account the psychology of the combatants. Which is why anytime there is a fight involving Anakin we have to specify whether he's in the zone or not, or if he's conflicted as on Mustafar or in ROTJ. Psychology matters. And Palpatine's shown he doesn't give a damn if his body is destroyed, and he's shown no proof that he would attempt to kill or remove Anakin and Obi-Wan by waving his effing hand. [/B]
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Dozens more, assumedly'Difficulty performing it in combat?' What sense does this MAKE? The Sith learn techniques just for that purpose. It isn't plausible in the least...by this logic, Bane's even more limited as he hardly uses any Force abilities in combat. and Palpaitne's likely killed more than a few Jedi. Bane's Order just kept their murders secret...
So he doesn't show a variety, and? He hardly fights when he appears and tends to fight lesser opponents or ones where the force becomes irrelevant.There is zero reason to expect he won't rip loose with high level Force powers if he truly believes his life in danger against multiple enemies
And when an omniscient narrator says you know it in a story?
And?
Oh, so you know his style in a hypothetical match against three of the strongest Jedi ever, two of whom he's personally dueled?
and Anakin can't hope to touch Palpatine. According to GL in The Making of ROTS, you need to be Mace or Yoda to compete with Palpatine, that's it.I'm pretty sure Palpatine'd consider it highly humiliating to be beaten by Yoda and Mace in his DE incarnation. He doesn't have a grand scheme at place here. if Dooku is able to remove Obi-wan and Anakin so easily, Palpatine certainly can as well.
Stop going into psychology without remembering in all those instances, Palpatine had plans set up
So Lightsnake in all reality you feel that DE Sidious should be able to defeat all four Jedi through force attacks? If DE Sidious can, why are so many people on this thread doubtful of DE Sidious winning?