His lightsaber leaped from its pocket within his vest and shot toward her like a bullet.
Her empty hand met it in midair; her pain-glazed eyes lost focus. He felt her in the Force: a sinking surrender like an exhausted swimmer drowning in a rising tide.
Slipping into Vaapad.
Eyes closed once more, she gave one slight nod.
Mace keyed a sequence on the pilot console. The open door stayed open. The troop door on the opposite side dropped open as well.
Particle beams streaked into the troop bay.
Both blades flashed.
The gunships outside bucked under the impact of their own cannonfire. On one, a turbojet engine blasted loose of its mount and tumbled away, bouncing down the mountainside trailing smoke and white-hot shreds of its cowling, and the gunship spun half out of control. The other gunship took its cannon blasts directly in the cockpit.
The transparisteel windscreen of a Sienar Turbostorm was thick and very durable; most kinds of shrapnel or fragments wouldn't scratch it. Even heavy-caliber bullets would leave only dents. A quad laser bolt could make a hole. One did.
The next five went through that hole.
The gunship spiralled into the jungle, its cockpit full of shredded flesh.
Depa opened her eyes.
They smoked with darkness.
--
That's the passage from Shatterpoint. I'll post the relevant and canon part from the RotS novel in a moment, and you can judge from there.
Also, Depa does all that with her eyes closed. Talk about badass.
Within the public office of the Supreme Chancellor of the Galactic Republic, a last Jedi Master battled alone, blade-to-blade, against a living shadow.
Sinking into Vaapad, Mace Windu fought for his life.
--
Mace Windu was cutting loose.
Mace was deep in it now: submerged in Vaapad, swallowed by it, he no longer truly existed as an independent being.
--
My interpretation of this is that Mace is sinking deeper and deeper into the grasp of Vaapad throughout the fight, until he finally gets to the edge and then defeats Palpatine. The novel's version of how his shatterpoint wins the duel is irrelevant, because it involves Anakin physically being there and Mace directly sensing his fear while mistaking it for Palpatine's. The duel then moves onto a wet and slippery ledge, Sidious tries to Force-grip it so as not to slip and fall, and that transfer of energy from speed to traction allows Mace to disarm him.
The movie's version, where Mace just "overpowers" the Sith Lord (according to Lucas), takes precedence.
And in regards to the statement we discussed before, about Depa surpassing Mace:
On that day in Nar Shaddaa, she showed me blade work that surpassed my own; she had continued to grow and study and progress in Vaapad as well as the Force.
She made me so very proud...
--
So it wasn't the innate nature of Vaapad in which she surpassed him, but the "blade work" itself, although Mace notes that she continued to grow in Vaapad as well as the Force.
Sorry for the relative incoherence and lack of direction in this post. I'm a little off.
Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Those Jedi who went to arrest him in ROTS were weak. And Anakin was MUCH weaker in AOTC when Dooku beat him. Anakin 'the chosen one' and Obi Wan in ROTS are alot more powerful and competent, I find it hard to believe DE Sidious would dispatch them like nothing. Remember that DE Luke fought Sidious to a standstill in lightsaber combat by himself, and DE Luke isnt nearly as powerful as he is later on in the EU. So its not like DE Sidious is the godlike opponent some people make him out to be, he cant defeat any opponent at will.
Luke could not of defeated Sidious alone. He had the help of Leia through the force to increase his own strenght in the force. When Luke challenged Sidious on byss, he failed, and could have been killed, but Sidious wanted to keep him as an apprentice.
However i do say that Mace, Yoda, Anakin, and Obi Wan could take him. I also think Obi Wan would die in a quickness.
As I look at it Sids could take Kenobi and Skywalker out as fast as he took out Tiin and Kolar. I mean this is DE Sids we're talking about. BUT, it is all dependant on the distance the combatants start at. If its in lets say the Senate Rotunda, then team Yoda is toast. But if they start out in lets say Palps office, things could get complicated.
Scenario: Team of Jedi move in to arrest Palps, as Mace is walking into the office he allows Vaapad to flow through him, They enter Mace gives the you are under arrest speech, Palps dismantles Obi, and Ani with ease and continues on the a Vaapad Mace and the Grand Master of the Jedi Order, who I personally believe can close the distance quickly as their two subordinates get WTF pwned.
Scenario II: Senate Rotunda, Palpatine is giving a speach Jedi waltz in arrest him, Palps blasts Obi, and Skywalker to bits and electrocutes mace before he can react, he then proceeds to steam roll over Yoda
Originally posted by Gideon
Palpatine's victory is dependent on a critical window of time. Kenobi and Skywalker are nonfactors in terms of an all out duel with the Emperor, but once Windu utilizes Vaapad to replicate Palpatine's ferocity, the duel is most decidedly in the Masters' favor.
I'd say Palpatine's victory is dependant on how much he increased in terms of power between RotS and DE. I mean hey...
a) We know that Yoda can deal with the power of RotS Sidious. So the DE version has to spent power on the level of his RotS incarnation to stop Yoda. While doing that he has to exert the same amount of power again to stop Mace. And then he - on top of that - needs the power of somebody on Dooku's level to deal with Anakin and Obi-Wan. You really think that he has almost become thrice as powerful as he was in RotS? Begs for proof.
b) I'm pretty sure that "filling the room with lightning" won't work. Think about it. Force lightning always strikes in an area of effect yet all the Jedi present have demonstrated the ability to "re-focus" lightning so that it doesn't hit anything but their lightsabers. Yet obviously the greater the breadth of the lightning, the less of the power arrives directly at the desired target. Yet even if we assume that Sidious can focus his lightning on four different targets using only two hands (and frankly...there is nothing to suggest that), he would still "only" hit each of the Jedi with 25 % of his complete power - at best. You think that is enough to kill any of them?
c) I'm pretty sure you're overestimating Sidious and underestimating Obi-Wan and Anakin. Especially the latter of those two beings. Think about it. Anakin must have at least the potential of Luke Skywalker. Yet he, unlike Luke, went to a decade of actual training adding three years of frontline combat. And if I may remind you: After his last lightsaber duel with Luke, when wanting Luke dead, Sidious attacks him with lightning and doesn't do much with it, except putting Luke on his ass for some seconds. Which leads to...
d) You should understand that Sidious display of force lightning aren't that impressive. Really. He annihilated several hundret Stormtroopers with it, who didn't have any defence. Who cares? He toasted some Sith Acolytes who probably hadn't too much of a defence against it. So what? Aside of that? He manages to knock Leia out, who didn't receive too much training up to that point. He managed to put Luke on his ass. And yes...her mortally wounded Empatayotos Brand - a guy in a life-support-system that he disabled with his force lightning. Are we going to use that as a reference to the ability of his force lightning to mortally wound Jedi?
So my conclusion would be that: Unless Sidious, with a Coup de grâce utilizing some really exotic force power, manages to get rid of at least three of the Jedi before they enter lightsaber combat [or kills Yoda and Mace on the spot] he's most likely facing his death in the shape of the lightsaber abilities of Yoda + X; Mace + X or the two combined. And yes...Obi-Wan and Anakin are the weak links here, but I doubt Sidious can that easily manhandle them while having to keep Mace and Yoda at bay at the same time.
Originally posted by Borbarad
I'd say Palpatine's victory is dependant on how much he increased in terms of power between RotS and DE. I mean hey...a) We know that Yoda can deal with the power of RotS Sidious. So the DE version has to spent power on the level of his RotS incarnation to stop Yoda. While doing that he has to exert the same amount of power again to stop Mace. And then he - on top of that - needs the power of somebody on Dooku's level to deal with Anakin and Obi-Wan. You really think that he has almost become thrice as powerful as he was in RotS? Begs for proof.
b) I'm pretty sure that "filling the room with lightning" won't work. Think about it. Force lightning always strikes in an area of effect yet all the Jedi present have demonstrated the ability to "re-focus" lightning so that it doesn't hit anything but their lightsabers. Yet obviously the greater the breadth of the lightning, the less of the power arrives directly at the desired target. Yet even if we assume that Sidious can focus his lightning on four different targets using only two hands (and frankly...there is nothing to suggest that), he would still "only" hit each of the Jedi with 25 % of his complete power - at best. You think that is enough to kill any of them?
c) I'm pretty sure you're overestimating Sidious and underestimating Obi-Wan and Anakin. Especially the latter of those two beings. Think about it. Anakin must have at least the potential of Luke Skywalker. Yet he, unlike Luke, went to a decade of actual training adding three years of frontline combat. And if I may remind you: After his last lightsaber duel with Luke, when wanting Luke dead, Sidious attacks him with lightning and doesn't do much with it, except putting Luke on his ass for some seconds. Which leads to...
d) You should understand that Sidious display of force lightning aren't that impressive. Really. He annihilated several hundret Stormtroopers with it, who didn't have any defence. Who cares? He toasted some Sith Acolytes who probably hadn't too much of a defence against it. So what? Aside of that? He manages to knock Leia out, who didn't receive too much training up to that point. He managed to put Luke on his ass. And yes...her mortally wounded Empatayotos Brand - a guy in a life-support-system that he disabled with his force lightning. Are we going to use that as a reference to the ability of his force lightning to mortally wound Jedi?
So my conclusion would be that: Unless Sidious, with a Coup de grâce utilizing some really exotic force power, manages to get rid of at least three of the Jedi before they enter lightsaber combat [or kills Yoda and Mace on the spot] he's most likely facing his death in the shape of the lightsaber abilities of Yoda + X; Mace + X or the two combined. And yes...Obi-Wan and Anakin are the weak links here, but I doubt Sidious can that easily manhandle them while having to keep Mace and Yoda at bay at the same time.
Beautiful! 😄
Originally posted by Nai Fohl
I'd say Palpatine's victory is dependant on how much he increased in terms of power between RotS and DE. I mean hey...
I'm not sure I follow, Nai. Palpatine has had twenty years of further study, handing day-to-day control of the Empire to the likes of Sate Pestage and Kinman Doriana, with access to extraordinary knowledge and esoteric techniques within the Force.
a.) We know that Yoda can deal with the power of RotS Sidious. So the DE version has to spent power on the level of his RotS incarnation to stop Yoda. While doing that he has to exert the same amount of power again to stop Mace. And then he - on top of that - needs the power of somebody on Dooku's level to deal with Anakin and Obi-Wan. You really think that he has almost become thrice as powerful as he was in RotS? Begs for proof.
As stated before, Darth Sidious's victory is dependent on a critical timeframe. But look at it like this: Kenobi and Skywalker, while being exceptional lightsaber duelists, have never demonstrated an exceptional command of the Force. As you have brought up on occasion, Count Dooku was able to deal with them rather easily when he utilized his Force powers, even when the Count was on the verge of Force exhaustion. Now, I do not mean to misconstrue your meaning, Nai, but are you meaning to imply that the reborn Emperor, at the height of his powers, cannot perform a feat that Tyranus could do on the verge of exhaustion? Moreover, Windu is a threat only once he submerges himself into Vaapad; against Sidious in the prequel trilogy, he was unable to defeat the Sith Lord until well into their duel: he was unable to capitalize on his advantages: namely numbers and teamwork with his fellow Jedi Masters, "celebrated swordsmen" all of them, who had the advantage of not only being aware of Palpatine's Sith allegiance -- but also had the advantage of being in combat stance before the Sith Lord attacked. And that is only regards into lightsaber combat. Force-wise, Windu laments that his prowess is not on par with the likes of Skywalker, Vastor, or Yoda. The same Vastor whom the suited-Darth Vader would "effortlessly" crush according to Coruscant Nights. So, we three of the Jedi are far weaker than the Emperor in terms of Force mastery -- and while they are all considerable threats in lightsaber combat (when submerged in Vaapad, Windu is a true monstrosity) -- who is to say that Palpatine would let them get that far? Only, in the end, is Yoda a threat here. And he is no match for the Emperor alone.
b) I'm pretty sure that "filling the room with lightning" won't work. Think about it. Force lightning always strikes in an area of effect yet all the Jedi present have demonstrated the ability to "re-focus" lightning so that it doesn't hit anything but their lightsabers. Yet obviously the greater the breadth of the lightning, the less of the power arrives directly at the desired target. Yet even if we assume that Sidious can focus his lightning on four different targets using only two hands (and frankly...there is nothing to suggest that), he would still "only" hit each of the Jedi with 25 % of his complete power - at best. You think that is enough to kill any of them?
Regarding the lightsabers, Palpatine seemingly casually disarmed Yoda with a gout of Force lightning, a second or two after the Jedi Master leaped upon the pod and resumed combat stance. He has also demonstrated the ability to disintegrate lightsaber hilts. So, I don't see how they will threaten him with lightsabers versus Force powers.
c) I'm pretty sure you're overestimating Sidious and underestimating Obi-Wan and Anakin. Especially the latter of those two beings. Think about it. Anakin must have at least the potential of Luke Skywalker. Yet he, unlike Luke, went to a decade of actual training adding three years of frontline combat. And if I may remind you: After his last lightsaber duel with Luke, when wanting Luke dead, Sidious attacks him with lightning and doesn't do much with it, except putting Luke on his ass for some seconds. Which leads to...
You're comparing two different things, though, Nai. You bring up periodically how Count Dooku was able to defeat both Kenobi and Skywalker on the verge of Force exhaustion. No one here has denied the threat that those two pose in lightsaber combat. But I am particularly disturbed regarding your insinuations that they'll somehow rival the Emperor when they couldn't do so much with the Count. Regarding Luke Skywalker and Anakin Skywalker; Anakin, in Labyrinth of Evil, was unable to breach a mere door with the Force and relied on Clone Commandos to destroy it in frustration. Luke was able to overpower an AT-AT. His Force mastery and defense are clearly greater than Anakin's, regardless of their relative potential.
d) You should understand that Sidious display of force lightning aren't that impressive. Really.
I completely disagree.
He annihilated several hundret Stormtroopers with it, who didn't have any defence. Who cares?
That he overpowered Stormtroopers isn't impressive, no. That he did so in one gout, simultaneously, in a large room? That is impressive.
He toasted some Sith Acolytes who probably hadn't too much of a defence against it. So what? Aside of that?
As I recall, according to the Dark Side Sourcebook, Sith alchemy is a particularly powerful discipline of the dark side. Only strong Force sensitives can master it. That Palpatine disintegrated them, casually, with one hand? That is impressive.
He manages to knock Leia out, who didn't receive too much training up to that point.
In a state that he "was barely able to walk" and that each further usage of the Force brought him closer to death? With the added power of the greatest of the three Solo children within her? That is impressive.
He managed to put Luke on his ass.
Skywalker was extremely powerful at this point, capable of overpowering an AT-AT without effort and -- if I recall -- absorbed their laserfire. Or did he block it with his lightsaber?
And yes...her mortally wounded Empatayotos Brand - a guy in a life-support-system that he disabled with his force lightning. Are we going to use that as a reference to the ability of his force lightning to mortally wound Jedi?
Again, Palpatine destroyed Jem Ysanna and mortally wounded Empatajayos Brand instantly in a state where he was teetering on the brink of death. Again, Nai, you seem to imply that Palpatine's lightning is nothing special.
So my conclusion would be that: Unless Sidious, with a Coup de grâce utilizing some really exotic force power, manages to get rid of at least three of the Jedi before they enter lightsaber combat [or kills Yoda and Mace on the spot] he's most likely facing his death in the shape of the lightsaber abilities of Yoda + X; Mace + X or the two combined. And yes...Obi-Wan and Anakin are the weak links here, but I doubt Sidious can that easily manhandle them while having to keep Mace and Yoda at bay at the same time.
As stated before, Kenobi and Skywalker will not last against the Emperor for any length of time in a Force contest. They can be brushed aside both easily and without effort. Windu is a threat only submerged in Vaapad, and at that point, he will be able to mimic Palpatine's greater speed and work in tandem with Yoda to defeat the Sith. But even armed with that, he is never a match for Sidious in terms of Force potency. Lastly, Yoda is no match for the Emperor alone, either. But, again, it's a critical timefield. If Vaapad engulfs Mace, the battle is in the Jedi's favor.
Originally posted by GideonHuh. See, now I thought it was Nick Rostu observing through the "dim wattage of his Force-connection" that Vader was more powerful than Vastor, and that it was he who noted that Vastor "wouldn't stand a chance" against Vader.
The same Vastor whom the suited-Darth Vader would "effortlessly" crush according to Coruscant Nights.
I don't see why a raw, untrained Force-user, regardless of his potential, should ever have been able to compete with a notable Sith Lord anyway, but please make clear the actual in-universe sources of information. To my knowledge the omniscient narrator never said anything about Vader being superior to Kar, although I could be wrong.
I have two questions.
1) In what arc does Palpatine disintegrate a large metal object with his Force Lightning? Is it DE or prior?
2) Is Leia's lightsaber the only one we have evidence of him destroying?
I do have the DE comics, but they're in a box in my closet, underneath Trinity, World War Hulk, and Sinestro Corps War...if you all have those answers off the top of your head, it'd be nice. It'd also help me cement the rest of my argument on the combat abilities of DE Sidious as opposed to other incarnations.
Question 1: If you are talking about the heavy piece of machinery Leia tried to smash him with, he did not use any lightning to disintegrate it. I don't if he telekenetically disintegrated it with some kind of force technique, or if the dark side energies surrounding him were so intense that it caused the metal object to disintegrate on contact. It never says how it was done. Im guessing it was some kind of technique by the way he desintegrated Leia's lightsaber. Yes this took place in DE, if it is the same instance i think you are talking about.
Question 2: Yes i believe that was the only evidence.
Originally posted by Faunus
Huh. See, now I thought it was Nick Rostu observing through the "dim wattage of his Force-connection" that Vader was more powerful than Vastor, and that it was he who noted that Vastor "wouldn't stand a chance" against Vader.I don't see why a raw, untrained Force-user, regardless of his potential, should ever have been able to compete with a notable Sith Lord anyway, but please make clear the actual in-universe sources of information. To my knowledge the omniscient narrator never said anything about Vader being superior to Kar, although I could be wrong.
"Vader was as tall as Vastor had been, but probably massed a good twenty kilos less. He wasn't physically impressive in the same way; no musculature was visible under the black armor. It didn't matter. There was no doubt in Nick's mind that, were Kar Vastor to be somehow to be pitted against Darth Vader, the feral Balawai wouldn't stand a chance. The Force was powerful in Vader; even the dim-wattage of Nick's connection could feel that. It was far more powerful than it had been in Kar Vastor. It had pulsed from Vastor in waves of fury, blasted like an open furnace. In Vader, it was -- contained. Pent. Waiting."
-- page 160. Nick believes Vader could defeat Vastor. The omniscient narrator makes note that the Force was far stronger in Vader, which "even Nick" could feel.
Originally posted by Faunus
He already said Coruscant Nights.Vader isn't even Vader yet in Shatterpoint.
And Gideon, I stand corrected, although I wonder why you quoted "effortlessly" (as in, 'would "effortlessly" defeat...'😉 if it wasn't actually stated that way.
*is a hardass*
Good point, sorry, i havent read Coruscant Nights.