DE Sidious vs ROTS Yoda, Mace, Anakin, and Obi Wan

Originally posted by Gideon
I'm not sure I follow, Nai. Palpatine has had twenty years of further study, handing day-to-day control of the Empire to the likes of Sate Pestage and Kinman Doriana, with access to extraordinary knowledge and esoteric techniques within the Force.

Yes, correct. I'm merely asking to what extend that studies have increased his power. Just seems to be a little bit out of proportion that he went to powerlevel x in about 60 years of Dark Side training and then went to 2.X times powerlevel x because of additional 20 years of studies.

As stated before, Darth Sidious's victory is dependent on a critical timeframe. But look at it like this: Kenobi and Skywalker, while being exceptional lightsaber duelists, have never demonstrated an exceptional command of the Force. As you have brought up on occasion, Count Dooku was able to deal with them rather easily when he utilized his Force powers, even when the Count was on the verge of Force exhaustion. Now, I do not mean to misconstrue your meaning, Nai, but are you meaning to imply that the reborn Emperor, at the height of his powers, cannot perform a feat that Tyranus could do on the verge of exhaustion?

Hmm. No. I'm quite sure that Sidious could crush Obi-Wan and Anakin into two little newbie cubes and have them dangling from the rear view mirror of the Eclipse. I'm merely questioning his ability to do that while having to deal with Yoda and Mace at the very same time.

Moreover, Windu is a threat only once he submerges himself into Vaapad; against Sidious in the prequel trilogy, he was unable to defeat the Sith Lord until well into their duel: he was unable to capitalize on his advantages: namely numbers and teamwork with his fellow Jedi Masters, "celebrated swordsmen" all of them, who had the advantage of not only being aware of Palpatine's Sith allegiance -- but also had the advantage of being in combat stance before the Sith Lord attacked. And that is only regards into lightsaber combat. Force-wise, Windu laments that his prowess is not on par with the likes of Skywalker, Vastor, or Yoda. The same Vastor whom the suited-Darth Vader would "effortlessly" crush according to Coruscant Nights. So, we three of the Jedi are far weaker than the Emperor in terms of Force mastery -- and while they are all considerable threats in lightsaber combat (when submerged in Vaapad, Windu is a true monstrosity) -- who is to say that Palpatine would let them get that far? Only, in the end, is Yoda a threat here. And he is no match for the Emperor alone.

The question is not if Windu is a threat to Sidious or not. I don't think that, even when submerging into Vaapad, he is a thread to the DE incarnation of Sidious. The point is that comparing the four Jedi to Sidious individually can't be used to conclude this fight as they will all jump him at the same time. So to me, it looks like that:

They face off all ready for battle and all expecting force attacks or lightsaber combat. Now Sidious, as I see it, has precisely two options:

a) Go for an area effect force attack and hope he can take out the Jedi and I'm quite certain that won't work with splitting his force lightning to attack them simultaneously.

b) Attempt to attack them individually. I'm rather certain that only Yoda could possibly surive that for more than a split second. Yet he has to take out Yoda and Mace or one of them + Obi-Wan and Anakin. Otherwise he will get screwed in lightsaber combat as Yoda or Mace will force him to focus on one opponent while he has a second master combatant incoming that he can't "force pwn" while duelling Mace or Yoda. So the point is: How many force attacks is Sidious capable of performing before the Jedi close distance and start engaging him with their lightsabers?

And on a sidenote: Do you really want to thrust Mace judgement about his own skills? I mean...we're talking about the same guy here that did put Obi-Wan above himself in terms of lightsaber ability. The same guy that is always putting most of his mates above himself. Yet his showings [just consider the scene in Shatterpoint when he stabilizes an avalange of dust, debris and stone with some area effect force grip; not to mention the guy tooled an entire droid army without having his lightsaber at hand] actually seem to suggest that he is in fact quite powerful. And I wouldn't take his actions on his home planet as a measure for his power as he constantly avoided using all he could, "fearing" that this could lead him down the path to the Dark Side.

Regarding the lightsabers, Palpatine seemingly casually disarmed Yoda with a gout of Force lightning, a second or two after the Jedi Master leaped upon the pod and resumed combat stance. He has also demonstrated the ability to disintegrate lightsaber hilts. So, I don't see how they will threaten him with lightsabers versus Force powers.

He disarmed Yoda a split second after the Jedi Master has landed on the pod. If he could do that on equal ground, why would he even engage Yoda in a lightsaber duel? And destroying a lightsaber being held by somebody almost entirely untrained when it comes down to using the force? If he could do that every time, why duel Luke at all instead of destroying his weapon and simply cut him down?

You're comparing two different things, though, Nai. You bring up periodically how Count Dooku was able to defeat both Kenobi and Skywalker on the verge of Force exhaustion. No one here has denied the threat that those two pose in lightsaber combat. But I am particularly disturbed regarding your insinuations that they'll somehow rival the Emperor when they couldn't do so much with the Count. Regarding Luke Skywalker and Anakin Skywalker; Anakin, in Labyrinth of Evil, was unable to breach a mere door with the Force and relied on Clone Commandos to destroy it in frustration. Luke was able to overpower an AT-AT. His Force mastery and defense are clearly greater than Anakin's, regardless of their relative potential.

Had Count Dooku Mace Windu and Yoda jumping at him while tossing around Kenobi and Skywalker? I'm afraid, Gideon but you're comparing two different things here. Sidious doesn't have to deal with that two Jedi only. He's up against four opponents. And mind you: Dooku also didn't simultaneously attack them with the force, much less attempted to instakill one of them.

That he overpowered Stormtroopers isn't impressive, no. That he did so in one gout, simultaneously, in a large room? That is impressive.

They still don't have any defence against his force abilities, Gideon. That he can do split his lightning that far and still kill regular people is nice, but that doesn't mean he can do the same to Jedi. I mean...Aleema Keto was capable of burning the skin and flesh of one of her servants down to the bone instantly - when she used the same attack against Exar Kun, he pretty much walked right through it and force pwned her.

As I recall, according to the Dark Side Sourcebook, Sith alchemy is a particularly powerful discipline of the dark side. Only strong Force sensitives can master it. That Palpatine disintegrated them, casually, with one hand? That is impressive.

No it isn't because you're using false premises. According to "The Essential Guide to the Force" the rather premitive original Sith before the exiled Jedi came across them, had already created Sith Alchemy. The very same people that were welcoming said Exiles as gods because of the power those Dark Jedi were wielding. And of course we have Shas Dovos constructing a suit of Sith Alchemy armor without any force training. So I doubt that those Sith Acolytes had to be powerful to archieve anything in the Alchemy field, especially since that art, as we see it appearing in the sources, is mostly practice through a previously created Sith Alchemy apparatus.

In a state that he "was barely able to walk" and that each further usage of the Force brought him closer to death? With the added power of the greatest of the three Solo children within her? That is impressive.

I was talking about the incident when she attempted to drop that huge metal piece on his head. And I didn't know that unborn children now grand there mothers some sort of automatic force protection.

Skywalker was extremely powerful at this point, capable of overpowering an AT-AT without effort and -- if I recall -- absorbed their laserfire. Or did he block it with his lightsaber?

As powerful as Mace, Yoda, Anakin or Kenobi? Or let me put that in other words: So much more powerful than any of these individuals that a force attack, that you assume to be capable to instantly kill one of that four Jedi, does nothing more but put him on his ass for some seconds?

Again, Palpatine destroyed Jem Ysanna and mortally wounded Empatajayos Brand instantly in a state where he was teetering on the brink of death. Again, Nai, you seem to imply that Palpatine's lightning is nothing special.

Erm? What, Gideon? Jem Ysanna is killed by Tedryn-Sha with a blaster when she and Leia confront him and Mordi while the two are attempting to assassinate Luke. And Sidious disabled Brands life-support-suit which was that killed the Jedi [after he first saves Anakin Solo by containing Sidious spirit in his only body before he dies].

As stated before, Kenobi and Skywalker will not last against the Emperor for any length of time in a Force contest. They can be brushed aside both easily and without effort. Windu is a threat only submerged in Vaapad, and at that point, he will be able to mimic Palpatine's greater speed and work in tandem with Yoda to defeat the Sith. But even armed with that, he is never a match for Sidious in terms of Force potency. Lastly, Yoda is no match for the Emperor alone, either. But, again, it's a critical timefield. If Vaapad engulfs Mace, the battle is in the Jedi's favor.

The point is, once again, that he has to deal with Skywalker and Kenobi while dealing with Mace and Yoda at the same time. Even if he can pwn them with a single force manouver (and I'm not saying that he can), the time he needs to do that will allow Mace and Yoda to attack him.

Then we have no idea how long it takes Mace to fully sink into Vaapad. Does that take a minute or ten seconds or can it even be performed almost instantly? The point here is that, notice, even when Mace was not fully submerged in Vaapad, Sidious in RotS did still not manage to kill him. And he was facing Mace alone, which won't happen here unless you assume that Sidious is going to get rid of the three other Jedi somehow. So you have an other combatant backing Mace, which could be Yoda [and that would be ownage], Anakin [who's just the finest Djem So duellist Dooku has ever seen - which means trouble] or Kenobi [who's probably one of the hardest opponents you can have in the lightsaber combat department due to his defensive abilities].

Of course you might say that he might play Dooku here and deal with the second opponent using the force while in melee combat [which we never saw Sidious doing at any point in time] but I doubt that he can pull that off, if one of the Jedi left for the lightsaber actions should be Yoda or Mace.

Originally posted by Gideon
"Vader was as tall as Vastor had been, but probably massed a good twenty kilos less. He wasn't physically impressive in the same way; no musculature was visible under the black armor. It didn't matter. There was no doubt in Nick's mind that, were Kar Vastor to be somehow to be pitted against Darth Vader, the feral Balawai wouldn't stand a chance. The Force was powerful in Vader; even the dim-wattage of Nick's connection could feel that. It was far more powerful than it had been in Kar Vastor. It had pulsed from Vastor in waves of fury, blasted like an open furnace. In Vader, it was -- contained. Pent. Waiting."

-- page 160. Nick believes Vader could defeat Vastor. The omniscient narrator makes note that the Force was far stronger in Vader, which "even Nick" could feel.

Okay, Gideon. Once more for the usage of quotes contained in literature. An omniscient narrator is characterized by knowing stuff that is not witnessed by any character inside the story. The typical omniscient narrator line starts with "But they couldn't have known that..." followed by something that none of the characters in the story could have perceived, known, thought etc.

What you face in Coruscant Nights (and almost every contemporary piece of fiction) is a omniscient narrator limited (also descriped as "effaced narration"😉 which means that the storytelling is limited to everything that can be known, perceived, thought or judged by any character appearing in the story. Yet the perspective can change. In that particular case above we're confronted with the thoughts of Nick Rostu which includes the statement that the force was stronger in Vader than it has ever been in Vastor. Despite that line coming from the narrator, it's still limited by the perspective the narration follows at that time, which would be Nicks.

Which means that it's still Nick thinking that Vader is more powerful than Vastor has ever been and not some definite tossed in by an omniscient source.

I think he means Rayf ysanna.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
I think he means Rayf ysanna.

That would be a 16-year-old boy who did at best have some weeks of actual training under Luke and who, before that, belonged to a tribe of people who, when combining their efforts, could come up with "weak movements" (as Luke and Corran perceive them) in the force. How does he even remotely compare to the likes of Obi-Wan, Anakin, Yoda or Mace?

In Rayf's defense, he was holding his own alongside Kam and Brand against numerous Dark Adepts in two different instances. Not a particularly sloppy or unskilled kid.

It's also entirely possible or even probable that Rayf and Jem were far more powerful in the Force than the average Ysanna, given that when she dies Jem fades into the Force. Also, that Palpatine's current rather poor bodily and mental status given the clone's degeneration.

Not saying it's a godly feat, but the Ysanna kids seemed to have some measure of ability.

Also, don't forget, for that 20 additional years of study, Palpatine was able to use:
A. Nihilus's Holocron if he didn't have it already
B. Andeddu's holocron- assuming he hadn't spent time with it when Dooku passed it on already
C. Adas's Holocron, described as falling into his hands during the Clone Wars
D. The walls and walls full of Sith Holocrons he took from the Jedi temple.
E. The Telos Holocron

Considering just studying Revan's Holocron for a few weeks took Bane from the level of 'prodigy' to 'Most powerful Darksider in the galaxy' (For comparison to Bane, let's use, say...Eragon becoming Godly magic user/sword fighter/lover/ballroom dancer in the span of a coupla weeks-months...Gary Stus and their learning rates surpass belief) and Palpatine, even if his learning potential and capacity isn't so absurdly high, from what we know, it's at the very least pretty damn good and he's got a lot to work with and the time to do it. It's more probable than not he became far more powerful from the time of ROTS.

i've gotta agree with borborad on everything he said on the last 3 posts. Very nicely put.

On the nick: vader-Vastor thing. The only time nick was around vastor, vastor was NEVER focusing on him. He ignored him as insignificant and totally focused on Windu. Shatterpoint says as much. When nick meets vader, vader is not only focusing on him, he's overpowering his mind to put into what he's going to do to nick's people. Of course Nick is going to come away from that with the impression that Vader is vastly beyond vastor. And that passage was nick's impression. NOT a narrator. there can be no question of that if the whole passage is read.

B. Andeddu's holocron- assuming he hadn't spent time with it when Dooku passed it on already

D. The walls and walls full of Sith Holocrons he took from the Jedi temple.

Considering just studying Revan's Holocron for a few weeks took Bane from the level of 'prodigy' to 'Most powerful Darksider in the galaxy'

(For comparison to Bane, let's use, say...Eragon becoming Godly magic user/sword fighter/lover/ballroom dancer in the span of a coupla weeks-months...Gary Stus and their learning rates surpass belief) and Palpatine, even if his learning potential and capacity isn't so absurdly high,

I'll get with you as soon as I can, Nai.

Originally posted by Faunus
It would be silly to assume that he could learn a fraction as much from any holocron post-RotS as Bane did from Revan's, speaking relatively.

Why?

Originally posted by Faunus
He wouldn't have risked losing any information he himself didn't have to his apprentice. And apparently, Andeddu's holocron didn't help much with the whole "undead" thing.

Seriously, whine more. 😛

Originally posted by Gideon
Why?

Palpatine was obviously set in his ways - he wasn't looking for new ideas or paths, he just wanted to learn more. He'd completed his immediate tasks.

Bane, on the other hand, wanted to upset the established order. He hated the way things were being run, and understood their flaws. He was looking for guidance and a new, revolutionary path. The holocron changed - or at least clarified - Bane's views. It's ridiculous to state that the then-Emperor of the Galactic Empire was looking to do something similar.

Even on the basis of knowledge itself; Bane was a relative neophyte, and Palpatine one of the most learned men in history. Palpatine couldn't possibly have gained as much from one holocron after RotS as Bane did from Revan's, as most of the greater leaps he made would've likely occurred during his training or the pre-TPM period.

I'm not saying that he couldn't have gleaned a fairly notable sum of new knowledge from a previously unfamiliar source, but he couldn't possibly have learned as much as Bane did from Revan's holocron, relative to their respective knowledge bases at the time.

Originally posted by Faunus
You'll note the use of the word "relatively."

Palpatine was obviously set in his ways - he wasn't looking for new ideas or paths, he just wanted to learn more. He'd completed his immediate tasks.

Bane, on the other hand, wanted to upset the established order. He hated the way things were being run, and understood their flaws. He was looking for guidance and a new, revolutionary path. The holocron changed - or at least clarified - Bane's views. It's ridiculous to state that the then-Emperor of the Galactic Empire was looking to do something similar.

Even on the basis of knowledge itself; Bane was a relative neophyte, and Palpatine one of the most learned men in history. Palpatine couldn't possibly have gained as much from one holocron after RotS as Bane did from Revan's, as most of the greater leaps he made would've likely occurred during his training or the pre-TPM period.

I'm not saying that he couldn't have gleaned a fairly notable sum of new knowledge from a previously unfamiliar source, but he couldn't possibly have learned as much as Bane did from Revan's holocron, relative to their respective knowledge bases at the time.

I'm getting you mean relatively here, though.

I got the impression he only wanted Darzu's Holocron for the knowledge of how to construct a holocron, lol....he should have wanted it so he could instruct Zannah better in Sith alchemy and sorcery. Greedy bastard.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
In Rayf's defense, he was holding his own alongside Kam and Brand against numerous Dark Adepts in two different instances. Not a particularly sloppy or unskilled kid.

I hope you aren't talking about the same Dark Adepts that were using blasters to attack Jedi and get owned at any given occassion without posing much of a threat to anybody who did use the force for more than two weeks?

It's also entirely possible or even probable that Rayf and Jem were far more powerful in the Force than the average Ysanna, given that when she dies Jem fades into the Force. Also, that Palpatine's current rather poor bodily and mental status given the clone's degeneration.

They joined forces and all that came up was some weak movements in the Force. Just for comparison. When doing the same, the Witches of Dathomir did bring down the Chu'unthor from orbit. And the latter were baffled by Luke's ability to levitate a lightsaber. So one might ask how "being more powerful" than the other Ysanna is a considerable feat at all.

Also, don't forget, for that 20 additional years of study, Palpatine was able to use:
A. Nihilus's Holocron if he didn't have it already
B. Andeddu's holocron- assuming he hadn't spent time with it when Dooku passed it on already
C. Adas's Holocron, described as falling into his hands during the Clone Wars
D. The walls and walls full of Sith Holocrons he took from the Jedi temple.
E. The Telos Holocron

Considering just studying Revan's Holocron for a few weeks took Bane from the level of 'prodigy' to 'Most powerful Darksider in the galaxy' (For comparison to Bane, let's use, say...Eragon becoming Godly magic user/sword fighter/lover/ballroom dancer in the span of a coupla weeks-months...Gary Stus and their learning rates surpass belief) and Palpatine, even if his learning potential and capacity isn't so absurdly high, from what we know, it's at the very least pretty damn good and he's got a lot to work with and the time to do it. It's more probable than not he became far more powerful from the time of ROTS.

The crux of the matter is this, Lightsnake: Sidious already was a powerful Sith Lord [according to you: the most powerful Sith Lord in history in his RotS incarnation] unlike Bane, who pretty much knew nothing about the actual Sith teachings. So the question is: How much new stuff could Sidious have gained out of the sources and how much, you think, can the actual force ability of a 60 year old man improve any further? See. Basically you can ask the same about Dooku here: He was already one of the most powerful individuals in his own era when he left the Jedi Order - then he went through more than a decade of Sith training, having access to at least some of the stuff Sidious knew. Yet...how much did he improve due to that? He was still not able to overcome Yoda with the force and, despite his lightsaber mastery even increased when he joined the Dark Side, Yoda still sees him and Mace Windu as equals [despite the fact that Dooku before seems to have been Windus superior in that department].

So I still wonder how much "new" knowledge Sidious could have gained from the sources and how much effect that would have had on his actual power level.

Originally posted by Borbarad
I hope you aren't talking about the same Dark Adepts that were using blasters to attack Jedi and get owned at any given occassion without posing much of a threat to anybody who did use the force for more than two weeks?

He was still not able to overcome Yoda with the force and, despite his lightsaber mastery even increased when he joined the Dark Side, Yoda still sees him and Mace Windu as equals [despite the fact that Dooku before seems to have been Windus superior in that department].

So I still wonder how much "new" knowledge Sidious could have gained from the sources and how much effect that would have had on his actual power level.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
If you're talking about Tedryn Sha, affter Sedriss died, Palpatine had personally empowered him and Nyst and named Tedryn his second, which would probably account for some power. It's a large group of Dark Jedi trained in the Empire for a good long while-the only ones who were new initiates where Tedryn and Nist.

Those poeple, Lightnsnake, do all not demonstrate any considerable kind of power. Kam slaugters Goir for example in the matter of seconds. Luke easily slaps Sedriss around, as if he's a ragdoll. And in lightsaber confrontation those people get owned by the likes of Jem and Rayf. Please. Those people are just the replacement for the original seven Dark Jedi, that Katarn walked over during the DF:JK storyline.

As Luke said, all of them needed training. Considering that's what Rayf and Jem got and considering Jem was able to bisect Mordi at the waste before he could react-and if Sedriss and Kam are any indication, the core seven Dark Adepts are nothing resembling weaklings.

Erm. No. Kam Solusar seems to be the by far most powerful of that people, given how he easily deals with his former trainer Goir. And as I said: They as a whole don't pose a threat to anyone with more than two weeks of force training, given how they are really owned in any given situation. The only impressive action performed by one of them is Sedriss final force move with that he manages to kill Ood Bnar. Anything else?

Considering Sedriss and Goir with the Force would have been capable of pretty much butchering the Ysanna beforehand, and Brand and Kam don't seem to need to carry Rayf in battle, not to mention that on Jem's death she achieves something that only a Jedi Master can...

And none of that changes the fact that they only had weeks to study some stuff under Luke. But I can make that here more easy: Do you really want to tell me that Jem and Rayf can be compared to the likes of Obi-Wan, Anakin, Yoda or Mace in their respective RotS shapes? People that went through decades (in Yodas case centuries) of force training and years of actual war? I hope not. And if they can't be compared to the Jedi, it makes Sidious feat to force pwn Rayf a non-issue in this debate.

"Age means nothing in matters of the Force." If Palpatine was able to access new Holocrons and new knowledge, it's likely his power would rise by quite a bit

I wasn't talking about age but about the mere fact that Sidious already had studied the secrets of the Dark Side for five or six decades. So how many "new" knowledge would that holocrons be able to offer to him. Enough to make him two or three times as powerful as he was already in RotS?

Considering it's said he became even stronger as a Sith, and this is considering the detail he was nothing more than a placeholder in Palpatine's eyes.

Yes. He became stronger as a Sith but as it seems he didn't receive a really considerable power boost, going by the fact that he appeared to be on a comparable power level to the one he already had when he was a Jedi.

Considering the sources of his knowledge and your saying in the past he would only have had access to truly significant knowledge post Order 66, it stands to reason he'd grow quite a bit more powerful.

The sources of his knowledge, aside from Revan's holocron - which knowledge went into the Ro2-era-Sith-line, are pretty much unknowns. And the same is the case with the stuff he looted from the Jedi Temple after Order66. I don't doubt that he has become more powerful - I'm merely asking how much more powerful in relation to his RotS shape.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Those poeple, Lightnsnake, do all not demonstrate any considerable kind of power. Kam slaugters Goir for example in the matter of seconds. Luke easily slaps Sedriss around, as if he's a ragdoll. And in lightsaber confrontation those people get owned by the likes of Jem and Rayf. Please. Those people are just the replacement for the original seven Dark Jedi, that Katarn walked over during the DF:JK storyline.

The sources of his knowledge, aside from Revan's holocron - which knowledge went into the Ro2-era-Sith-line, are pretty much unknowns. And the same is the case with the stuff he looted from the Jedi Temple after Order66. I don't doubt that he has become more powerful - I'm merely asking how much more powerful in relation to his RotS shape.

So much stuff typed up and the only statement that matters can be found here:

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Did I say that? No, they're just more powerful than you give them credit for

Was there any reason to engage in a debate about Rayf and the Dark Siders given the fact that you happily agree with me that none of them is compareable to the likes of Anakin, Obi-Wan, Mace and Yoda? No? Thanks for that.

So how does the point that Sidious was able to kill Rayf with his force lightning makes any difference for the issue of this thread? The mere fact that the four people he's put up against seem to be closer to DE Luke than to Rayf actually leads to the suggestion, that Sidious using lightning against them, would more probably archieve to put them on their asses or knocking them out for a brief period of time than to instantly kill them with that.

At his weakest in the entire saga

Now where is that premise coming from, Lightsnake? The guy is at the edge of death physically and he is insane to a certain extend. Yet, since when do those things affect the force powers of a person - especially someone already using the Dark Side?

he raises a hand and effortlessly kills a Jedi

No. He kills a boy with almost no actual training that resembles a "Jedi" as much as ANH Luke Skywalker does - just having less force potential, and he manages to electrocute a guy that wears a life-support-system making him vunerable against force lightning. Really big deal. Especially since that showing is what is used here to argue that Sidious could do the same to seasoned Jedi Warriors.

Dark Jedi with years worth of training had been killed by Rayf, that should say a little about him.

Or it simply says that those guys are acting stupid in combat situations. Really. Everybody with that training advantage should be able to kill Rayf and yet none of his opponents is capable of doing the job. Even if you want to equip Rayf with force potential and natural lightsaber talent that rivals that of Luke it would be a joke. In fact all of that Dark Jedi are simply non-issues if you compare them to people with similar training running around in the SW mythos. Just think about Ventress for example, or Anakin as he was in AotC.

Yet the Essential Guide to the Force claims pretty much that said "Dark Jedi" were chosen by Sidious via his Inquisitors and all of them shouldn't have been too powerful. In fact, as it seems, the most powerful servants of the Emperor (Vader aside) where his hands. You have to understand that Sidious didn't want successors and hence didn't train those people to an extend where they were even coming close to unleashing their entire potential. In fact that only one of his trainees who did come close to that (Jerec) had to steal knowledge from Sidious in order to archieve that goal.

If he was opened up to so much more Dark side knowledge since then? Unless he's already the most knowledgable there is circa ROTS

We don't know if there was anything new to him in said holocrons, Lightsnake. So why should we assume that they equiped him with knowledge making him destinctively more powerful than he was at the end of RotS?

We're also keeping in mind it's pretty doubtful Dooku was doing a great deal of Sith studying. Maybe Darth Andeddu's Holocron, but in all likelihood, he handed it right over

Oh. You call that doubtful. In fact Quinlan Vos in the Essential Guide to the Force notes that, going by the fact that Dooku was able to open the Sith holocron so fast, he has most likely come across at least one if not even more of those things.

Consider his Holocrons consist of Nihilus's and Andeddu's now if they didn't already, Bane's-the knowledge of Revan, Nadd, Belia Darzu and Bane...and not ignoring that he later came into possession of Adas's Holocron and the Telos Holocron, two highly treasured Sith holocrons

Now what? Nihilus didn't strike me as too knowledgeable as he was just dominated by his hunger. Andeddu? Don't know if he knew anything that Sidious didn't. He had Bane's before RotS. Adas just could have offered knowledge that was recorded when the Sith were still a premitive species. And the knowledge stored in the Telos Holocron is also an unknown - just as it's the case with almost every holocron we come across in the saga.

Originally posted by Borbarad
So much stuff typed up and the only statement that matters can be found here:

Was there any reason to engage in a debate about Rayf and the Dark Siders given the fact that you happily agree with me that none of them is compareable to the likes of Anakin, Obi-Wan, Mace and Yoda? No? Thanks for that.

And the knowledge stored in the Telos Holocron is also an unknown - just as it's the case with almost every holocron we come across in the saga.

After the Clone Wars, Palpatine had at least two of the most highly prized Holocrons in the entire Sith Line, both dating back to long ancient times, not to mention he had access to the spirits of the Ancients. It's a fair bet he found something he didn't know

As I recall, the endnotes of Dark Empire mention that "while none of [the dark side adepts] didn't compare to Palpatine's own level of power, many of them were quite powerful indeed."

Oh, and as you requested, LS. Straight from Publius:

While this statement may be true, it remains baseless supposition. The facts of the matter are that Freedon Nadd "has knowledge of" the disciplines described in the Tales of the Jedi Sourcebook, and certain unknown others found in "ancient Holocrons and tomes" (which remain undefined, and are therefore worthless in concrete terms); in contrast, Palpatine "has mastered nearly all the known powers, previously unknown powers, and devises new ones at his pleasure." On the basis of these two statements, the probability is that if Nadd knew of a discipline, Palpatine has probably mastered it ("nearly all the known powers"😉. If Nadd did not know if it, Palpatine has probably mastered it ("previously unknown powers"😉. If Nadd never imagined it, Palpatine may well have invented it ("and devises new ones at his pleasure"😉.

The evidence does not support the suggestion that Freedon Nadd had access to greater stores of knowledge than Palpatine. Freedon Nadd never even achieved the rank of Jedi Knight; the Dark Empire Sourcebook calls Palpatine a Jedi Master. The distinction is not insignificant: Revenge of the Sith reveals that a Jedi's access to Holocrons was restricted by rank (hence Anakin Skywalker's outrage that he was denied the rank of Jedi Master -- without it, he could not access the Temple's most valuable Holocrons to search for a way to save Lady Amidala's life). Nadd trained for some unspecified time under the reigning Jen'ari, Naga Sadow, but did not finish his training, and scavenged Sithian artifacts from various ruins; his training was restricted to incomplete terms under the Jedi and Imperial Sith, with whatever trinkets he could find along the way.

Palpatine, in contrast, had access to the Sith Archives (Episode I Journal: Darth Maul); his lair in the Chancellor Palpatine Surgical Reconstruction Center had "archives, Sith Holocrons, and other artifacts," an "environmentally controlled display case for Sith Scrolls," and a "massive Sith Holocron uncovered on Korriban" (Complete Locations). The Imperial Citadel on Byss was equipped with "a full library of Dark Side texts for the master's personal study" (Dark Empire Sourcebook), and he was said to have spent "decades studying the most arcane and esoteric Jedi disciplines" (id.). He gained access to all of the Temple's holocrons, including the "restricted holocrons" with "the deepest secrets of the greatest Masters of the Force" (Revenge of the Sith), which even included "the only known [to the Jedi] Sith Holocrons, whose very existence is revealed only to a handful of Jedi at the highest levels" (Attack of the Clones: The Visual Dictionary), and he went on to seize Bodo Baas's holocron from Master Jedi Ashka Boda (Dark Empire). Palpatine "gathered the greatest works of knowledge from over a million worlds" and "studied the Force in all its guises throughout the galaxy, whether it was the shamanism of the Jarvashqiine or the tales of the Tyia," so that he "had long ago gone beyond any knowledge to be found in the recovered teachings of the Krath or the Heresiarchs" (Dark Empire Sourcebook), and is known to have "studied [the Sorcerers of Tund] prior to their destruction" (The New Essential Guide to Characters). He recruited those who "had already mastered the unique sorceries of their own species" as his dark side adepts "as much to study their knowledge as to train them in his" (Dark Empire Sourcebook).

The evidence is quite clear. Palpatine's study of the Force is the most in-depth and wide-ranging ever seen in the whole of the canon, literally embracing millions of worlds and cultural traditions well outside the range of the Jedi and the Sith (both the Ordinal Sith and the Imperial Sith). No other character is known to have spent such effort and such time to the collection and integration of such a vast store of knowledge -- what's more, Palpatine is known to have been active in his studies, integrating and refining the wildly varying cultures into his "Science of Darkness," documenting much in his Dark Side Compendium (in fact, it is known that Palpatine's writings were sufficiently thorough that reading one of his books could give one a working knowledge of alchemy andits application to biological engineering).