DE Sidious vs ROTS Yoda, Mace, Anakin, and Obi Wan

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Referring to Rayf as an obvious weakling is ridiculous and considering Palpatine was able to take him, Leia and Brand at his absolute worst does say something for him

Yes. It says that he can own people who have absolutely know idea how to defend themselves against force lightning (Rayf, Leia) or people vunerable against that technique (Brand). Congratulations.

Anything of this contributing to the topic of this debate here? No. Then thank you for bringing it up.

When, in his normal states-IE: not empowered with the totality of the lightside, did Palpatine have any trouble with Luke?

When you have finished constructing arguments around obvious hyperboles you can give me a call.

And do you really see Anakin or Obi-wan doing well with the Lightning? The only one of this group who can block it barehanded is Yoda and given the storm of it Palpatine can unleash on sustained levels? If they're just knocked out-and I have a hard time believing any of them but Yoda can survive the lightning's initial burst, what exactly, happens next?

Oh yes. If they, ready for battle, don't already have their lightsaber in their hands, they deserve to die. As all of the combatants with the exception of Yoda usually ignite their lightsaber first when about to confront another force user I guess we can assume that Mace, Anakin and Obi-Wan have them out and ignited when the battle starts.

And as all three of those have demonstrated the ability to block force lightning with their sabers. Well. We know that Dooku's lightning is not powerful enough to pass said defence used by Kenobi (AotC) or Anakin (Clone Wars). We know that Mace can, using said defence, repel lightning shot at him from almost point-blank range by RotS Sidious - which Yoda can block with his bare hands.

So actually, Sidious has to attack them all at once, hitting two of the Jedi (Anakin, Obi-Wan) individually with more power than Dooku could come up with, and the other pair individually with more power than his RotS self could generate. This all, still, simultaneously. I doubt that he is powerful enough to do that.

Because, as his physician tells him right after, he can't even use the Dark Side or even get angry without killing himself and speeding up the degeneration. The body is barely holding itself together, how is it possible to argue that he can use his powers to the fullest when even a burst of force lightning could be fatal to him?

Oh well, Lightsnake. You do realize that he was about to archieve his goal (capturing Anakin Solo) which means that any care for his old body would be useless? And notice that his simple use of force lightning already proofs the physician wrong as it obviously didn't kill him. The same physician, by the way, that was responsible for manipulating all of Sidious remaining clones into being genetically unstable? Yeah. I bet we should thrust the comments of that guy. Especially since Sidious is using the force over and over again during Empire's End.

So it's quite reasonable to assume that he blasted Rayf and Brand with all he could - which is a non-issue anyways as, when clearly in a better shape and attempting to kill Luke, he just puts Luke on his ass for some seconds and that's it.

That 'boy' killed several of Palpatine's handpicked, personally empowered elite, along with that 'cripple,' killed by someone who shouldn't had the power to generate any lightning beyond that of Hetton in Rule of Two.

And gosh. That says what about his ability to defend himself against any kind of force attacks? May I remind you that Kam Solusar wasn't able to counter a force choke, hence Luke had to do the job for him on Ossus? And this is just telekinesis.

and the guy with the life support kind of had a saber that could block lightning.

A saber that was forged into his suit, meaning that the electicity would probably still have hit said life-support-system and disabled it? Face it: Sidious fried two entirely defenceless victims.

Considering this is a Palpatine capable of much more powerful and sustained lightning? Anakin and Obi-wan couldn't have competed with a Palpatine in ROTS, that doesn't give me great confidence in their abilities to survive a barrage like that

Which is, once more, arguing that Sidious will attack them individually. If Sidious decides to individually attack any of the four Jedi here, said Jedi
is most likely going to die. Yet that would leave him with another three opponents to deal with. So unless you want to assume that the Jedi will simply stand there and watch Sidious toasting their friends one after another, his individual superiority is a non-issue.

Considering these guys are picked, personally, by Palpatine from a very sizeable pool which includes people like Sariss, Arden Lyn, Jerec, Cronal, Droga and others...and then increased in power by Palpatine himself.

Is it much fun arguing in all that circles, knowing that this will get you nowhere? It doesn't matter where those individuals come from or what they've gone through. They appear on the field and get trashed in any given occassion. No archievements. No grandeur in terms of force powers or lightsaber ability. They come, they see, they get annihilated. You could blame the bad writing on that because it - logically - makes absolutely no sense. Yet, comparing them to almost any Dark Sider appearing in the mythos, they are absolute crappy in every single way.

I mean. Hey. "I stand next to a sleeping Luke Skywalker and have the command to kill him. Instead of taking my blaster and deliver a nice energy bolt right into his head or cut him to pieces with my lightsaber, I will attempt to poison him using some mechanical bugs." Smart. Even better: "Women with a lightsaber approaches me. I'd rather make some funny comment about her gender instead of...ARGH...where has the left side of my body gone?" Yeah. Really. Those people are the ultimate elite among Dark Side trainees across the Galaxy - and I'm the Emperor of China.

And last I checked, Rayf had about a year to train, did he not?

Yeah. We're all familiar with your love for details: Rayf gets picked up on Ossus -> journey to Pinnacle Base (which is destroyed when the Jedi arive) -> journey to New Alderaan -> one day of training -> journey to Nespis -> some days there (station gets attacked by Galaxy Gun after tracking back rebel ships) -> journey to Ossus -> journey to Vjun -> journey to Rebel command ship -> journey to Onderon, where he get's killed.

The total time Rayf did spent with Luke can obviously be measured in weeks.

Considering the head of these Dark Jedi is a Qel-Droma capable of matching Ood Bnar and who they're held above, this might get them some benefit of the doubt

So the action of their leader makes them all powerful individually? Can you come up with more illogical statements? Logically the best of them would be the leader. Yet the best of that Dark Jedi is not able to even remotely touch Luke. Compare that to Mara Jade who almost managed to kill Luke not even a year before that. Compare that to Asajj Ventress who almost managed to kill the likes of Obi-Wan and post-AotC Anakin. Compare that to Jerec who could instantly wipe Qu Rahn from existance. Really.

And 'shouldn't have been that powerful?' Palpatine was the one who empowered them himself and 'totally immersed' them in the Dark Side according to the Dark Side Compendium

With that, I meant that they shouldn't have been powerful enough to pose any threat to Sidious himself, as he didn't thrust anybody. And yes. He empowered them with the Dark Side. In the same manner that Ragnos sceptre did do the job with the Disciples of Ragnos. Still their amount of actual combat action, experience and so on is virtually zero.

He wanted enforcers and powerful servants, though. All of the Dark Side Elite, save for Kam's redemption, were fanatically loyal, even to Palpatine's memory

And he still didn't want them to be powerful enough to pose a threat to him.

A think a big wall full of them might have something he didn't know. This is a pretty weak supposition, Nai, and leads me to imagine an image of Palpatine sitting with a giant pile of Holocrons behind him, selecting one, taking a look, sighing and tossing it on the pile.

What big wall full of them, Lightsnake? You mean the ones from the Jedi Temple that, as Faunus had already pointed out, were "clever forgeries" as Sidious himself says in RoDV? I'm afraid. Doesn't work. Which limits the holocrons to precisely two: That of Adas and the Telos Holocron.

Yes, he did. Considering:
A. He and Lorian Nod had stolen one in Dooku's youth and checked it out before Lorian got his ass booted out
B. Dooku would have been one of the only Masters allowed to access Sith Holocrons in his time at the temple along with Yoda, Mace and a few others.

I'm afraid, Lightsnake. The Sith holocrons were only accessible for the Jedi Council Members - and Dooku didn't belong to that group. Aside of that he had access to the Telos Holocron, as he is one of the Gatekeepers...

Nihilus was still Dark Lord of the Sith and well trained at Malachor. A source of the lost knowledge. Sith don't usually make Holocrons unless they know something worth recording, given how taxing the ritual is

Malachor was still a training area for Ancient Sith newbies and we don't know how much time Nihilus did actually spent there. So to claim that he was "well trained" there lacks any basis. As does the claim that his holocron contained anything interesting besides some historical knowledge from Sidious point of view.

He's an Ancient Sith whose knowledge filled an entire room of scrolls and books. By your usual standards, the former should make him pretty knowledgeable

That doesn't matter, Lightsnake. Andeddus Holocron came into Sidious possession before RotS.

Are you kidding me? Adas's Holocron gave Freedon Nadd a huge burst of knowledge and power, being one of the most treasured and coveted Holocrons of the Ancient Empire according to Evil Never Dies.

Apparently not enough to instantly take it up with Sadow in that department, hence why he went to train under that Dark Lord, before killing him without finishing his training. Queen Amanoa is said to have learned and mastered all of the holocrons secrets. Doesn't strike me as being too impressive, though.

The Telos Holocron consisted of knowledge of Ajunta Pall, Naga Sadow, Kla, Seviss Vaa and was supposedly something very, very special to the Sith.

Doesn't matter for this particular argument, Lightsnake, as Sidious already had that holocron before the events in RotS - given that Darth Tyranus aka Dooku is one of the Gatekeepers.

After the Clone Wars, Palpatine had at least two of the most highly prized Holocrons in the entire Sith Line, both dating back to long ancient times, not to mention he had access to the spirits of the Ancients. It's a fair bet he found something he didn't know

I was asking for knowledge he discovered past ROTS, Lightsnake. The only thing matching this criteria that you listed is Adas's holocron.

Originally posted by Borbarad
[B]Yes. It says that he can own people who have absolutely know idea how to defend themselves against force lightning (Rayf, Leia) or people vunerable against that technique (Brand). Congratulations.

Anything of this contributing to the topic of this debate here? No. Then thank you for bringing it up.

When you have finished constructing arguments around obvious hyperboles you can give me a call.

Oh yes. If they, ready for battle, don't already have their lightsaber in their hands, they deserve to die. As all of the combatants with the exception of Yoda usually ignite their lightsaber first when about to confront another force user I guess we can assume that Mace, Anakin and Obi-Wan have them out and ignited when the battle starts.

And as all three of those have demonstrated the ability to block force lightning with their sabers. Well. We know that Dooku's lightning is not powerful enough to pass said defence used by Kenobi (AotC) or Anakin (Clone Wars).

We know that Mace can, using said defence, repel lightning shot at him from almost point-blank range by RotS Sidious - which Yoda can block with his bare hands.

So actually, Sidious has to attack them all at once, hitting two of the Jedi (Anakin, Obi-Wan) individually with more power than Dooku could come up with, and the other pair individually with more power than his RotS self could generate. This all, still, simultaneously. I doubt that he is powerful enough to do that.

Oh well, Lightsnake. You do realize that he was about to archieve his goal (capturing Anakin Solo) which means that any care for his old body would be useless?

And notice that his simple use of force lightning already proofs the physician wrong as it obviously didn't kill him.

The same physician, by the way, that was responsible for manipulating all of Sidious remaining clones into being genetically unstable? Yeah. I bet we should thrust the comments of that guy.

Especially since Sidious is using the force over and over again during Empire's End.

So it's quite reasonable to assume that he blasted Rayf and Brand with all he could - which is a non-issue anyways as, when clearly in a better shape and attempting to kill Luke, he just puts Luke on his ass for some seconds and that's it.

And gosh. That says what about his ability to defend himself against any kind of force attacks? May I remind you that Kam Solusar wasn't able to counter a force choke, hence Luke had to do the job for him on Ossus? And this is just telekinesis.

A saber that was forged into his suit, meaning that the electicity would probably still have hit said life-support-system and disabled it? Face it: Sidious fried two entirely defenceless victims.

Which is, once more, arguing that Sidious will attack them individually. If Sidious decides to individually attack any of the four Jedi here, said Jedi
is most likely going to die. Yet that would leave him with another three opponents to deal with.

So unless you want to assume that the Jedi will simply stand there and watch Sidious toasting their friends one after another, his individual superiority is a non-issue.

Is it much fun arguing in all that circles, knowing that this will get you nowhere? It doesn't matter where those individuals come from or what they've gone through. They appear on the field and get trashed in any given occassion. No archievements. No grandeur in terms of force powers or lightsaber ability.

They come, they see, they get annihilated.

You could blame the bad writing on that because it - logically - makes absolutely no sense. Yet, comparing them to almost any Dark Sider appearing in the mythos, they are absolute crappy in every single way.

I mean. Hey. "I stand next to a sleeping Luke Skywalker and have the command to kill him. Instead of taking my blaster and deliver a nice energy bolt right into his head or cut him to pieces with my lightsaber, I will attempt to poison him using some mechanical bugs."

Smart. Even better: "Women with a lightsaber approaches me. I'd rather make some funny comment about her gender instead of...ARGH...where has the left side of my body gone?" Yeah. Really. Those people are the ultimate elite among Dark Side trainees across the Galaxy - and I'm the Emperor of China.

Yeah. We're all familiar with your love for details: Rayf gets picked up on Ossus -> journey to Pinnacle Base (which is destroyed when the Jedi arive) -> journey to New Alderaan -> one day of training -> journey to Nespis -> some days there (station gets attacked by Galaxy Gun after tracking back rebel ships) -> journey to Ossus -> journey to Vjun -> journey to Rebel command ship -> journey to Onderon, where he get's killed.

The total time Rayf did spent with Luke can obviously be measured in weeks. [/B]

Originally posted by Borbarad
So the action of their leader makes them all powerful individually? Can you come up with more illogical statements?

I was asking for knowledge he discovered [b]past ROTS, Lightsnake. The only thing matching this criteria that you listed is Adas's holocron. [/B]

Why's this still an issue? As brought up the Project Holocron, DE Sidious' lightning cannot disintegrate large metal objects (or any metal objects for that matter), nor can he disintegrate lightsabers unless he's on a powerful Dark Side world such a Byss.

Since the OP doesn't state where this takes place, it should be a neutral world.

This alone should discredit half of LS's and Gideon's arguments for Sidious winning here.

If Bane's lightning can burn through techno beasts, nothing is going to stop Palpatine from turning metal to ash if he so desires. Moreover, nothing-absolutely nothing-says or indicates he's incapable of destroying sabers on a neutral setting.
Because it's an 'afterthought' to him there does not mean he'll be unable to reproduce the feat as the only one who has ANY hope in the Force here? Yoda. Or is Palpatine's self developed insta-kill dependent on the world, too?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
If Bane's lightning can burn through techno beasts, nothing is going to stop Palpatine from turning metal to ash if he so desires. Moreover, nothing-absolutely nothing-says or indicates he's incapable of destroying sabers on a neutral setting.
Because it's an 'afterthought' to him there does not mean he'll be unable to reproduce the feat as the only one who has ANY hope in the Force here? Yoda. Or is Palpatine's self developed insta-kill dependent on the world, too?

He clearly cannot disintegrate sabers (at least, modern sabers) at will anywhere he wishes, or he would have done so to Luke on Eclipse II, especially after being beaten and losing his hand. If he's angry enough to create a Force Storm because of Luke betraying him, then he's angry enough to blow up his lightsaber...if he could. He doesn't. He can't.

Furthermore, what is Palpatine's "insta-kill"? If you're referring to Force Storm, even Gideon wrote that idea off as they're too close to accurately control it without risking killing himself.

One more thing - your assertion that, "Since Bane's lightning can, Sidious' lightning can" is totally unfounded. Show me evidence that Sidious' lightning is superior or equal to Bane's and then you'll have a case. Until then, DE Sidious gets owned completely by the team present.

The explanation of 'he wanted to crush Luke in battle' doesn't fly then? Same as when he defeated him on Byss? He got so furious he decided to obliterate the fleet and destroying Luke's saber wouldn't do a thing.

and his insta-kill. The technique he created to locate an individual anywhere and kill them through the Dark Side via anger?

And gee, let's think...Palpatine is:
A. more powerful than Bane.
B. specializes in lightning
C. Has displayed more powerful and wider lightning.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
The explanation of 'he wanted to crush Luke in battle' doesn't fly then? Same as when he defeated him on Byss? He got so furious he decided to obliterate the fleet and destroying Luke's saber wouldn't do a thing.

and his insta-kill. The technique he created to locate an individual anywhere and kill them through the Dark Side via anger?

And gee, let's think...Palpatine is:
A. more powerful than Bane.
B. specializes in lightning
C. Has displayed more powerful and wider lightning.

He wanted to crush Luke in battle and failed. He lost the duel. He got his hand cut off. He doesn't disintegrate Luke's saber afterwards and use his other hand to fry him with Force Lightning why? Because he can't.

Where is this instant kill ability displayed? Palpatine said he can kill from afar. Which he can. With Force Storms.

As for point B) my answer is so does Bane, clearly. See his numerous Force Lightning feats, his Force Storm against the mercenaries, and his Force Storm (weather alteration) to cripple the Army of Light.

As for point C) my response is prove it. Which, you'll be unable to do.

Originally posted by Enyalus
He wanted to crush Luke in battle and failed. He lost the duel. He got his hand cut off. He doesn't disintegrate Luke's saber afterwards and use his other hand to fry him with Force Lightning why? Because he can't.

As for point C) my response is prove it. Which, you'll be unable to do.

Point in time where Bane reduces a group of Force users to charred bone with one hand? Or killed over a hundred people with it? Who's more powerful?
The answer to those is Palpatine.

Enyalus, I suggest you take note: I won't be repeating myself on this issue again.

The Dark Side Sourcebook refers to Palpatine as being "the most powerful [of Bane's Order]." Who is also a member of Bane's Order? Darth Bane. Heritage of the Sith, the Essential Guide to the Force, and Death Star all make note how the Emperor was "the culmination of Sith philosophy and teachings" and the last source refers to Palpatine as being "the most powerful Sith in a thousand years."

Lastly, the sprinkles on the ice cream of ownage:

"The Sith have waited for a millennium for the birth of one who is powerful enough to return them from hiding. Darth Sidious is that one -- the Sith's revenge on the Jedi order for having nearly eradicated the practitioners of the dark side of the Force."

-- Complete Visual Dictionary, page 194.

That's funny. In all of that, I don't see Bane's name being labelled as such once. So any comparisons between the two are unfavorable to Bane; he's weaker. No, it's not up for debate. No, you're not going to get anywhere arguing it.

And if you bring up "well, lolz, i only implied as much, i was referring to teh lightning" -- if it is your suggestion that a weaker, younger, and less experienced Sith Lord will have more potent lightning from a life long user like the Emperor, it is your burden to prove.

You've made it clear you admire, emulate, and worship Nebaris. One would hope that, while he is certainly a clever guy, you haven't picked up his habits that tend to lead him to losing an argument. I suggest you end it now before you make it habitual.

Sorry, I need to nitpick.

that wasn't a 'Force Storm' on Ruusan...it was a massive wave of destruction and he didn't do it alone

Point in time where Bane reduces a group of Force users to charred bone with one hand?

Or killed over a hundred people with it?

The most impressive part of that display wasn't the mass-killing, which apparently isn't unique to Palpatine (Revan vs. Rakata, Dooku vs. Kiffar), but the fact that the Emperor managed to direct the bolts of energy around his own Red Guards. That was awesome.

Which is surprising, really, since you'd think he wouldn't give a shit.

The Emperor has groupies.

Originally posted by Faunus
Sorry, I need to nitpick.

It was called a storm by narration, if I'm not mistaken.

He reduces three people to ashes and a ten-meter flying beast to charred bone with one hand while flying over a kilometer in the air, ten years before the later events of RoT.

The most impressive part of that display wasn't the mass-killing, which apparently isn't unique to Palpatine (Revan vs. Rakata, Dooku vs. Kiffar), but the fact that the Emperor managed to direct the bolts of energy around his own Red Guards. That was awesome.

Originally posted by Gideon
Enyalus, I suggest you take note: I won't be repeating myself on this issue again.

The Dark Side Sourcebook refers to Palpatine as being "the most powerful [of Bane's Order]." Who is also a member of Bane's Order? Darth Bane. Heritage of the Sith, the Essential Guide to the Force, and Death Star all make note how the Emperor was "the culmination of Sith philosophy and teachings" and the last source refers to Palpatine as being "the most powerful Sith in a thousand years."

Firstly, don't imply what isn't there. He's the most powerful. Period. And I've acknowledged that. Time and again.

But guess who has the higher displays of Force Lightning feats? Bane. Ergo, Bane's lightning is more impressive - based upon displays. Quote all the sourcebooks you want, you won't find a quote stating "Darth Sidious' lightning is the most powerful version of Sith lightning ever."

EDIT: LS, Revan annihilates entire party groups of Rakata with his Force Storms. I don't recall the Dooku feat, but someone else said he did that, as well.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Considering he doesn't just overpower Rayf- and considering Force lightning can, y'know be resisted- but blasts a hole right through him, killing him instantly...while Rayf is armed-it takes what skill to raise your saber to block for Rayf and Brand? From a weakened Palpatine...and he incapacitates Leia who just flung him across the room.

He didn't blast a hole into Rayf - he destroyed his clothes. And defending themselves with a saber? Yes. Not only that this technique must have been learned (putting your saber in the way alone won't help). As I already said: Brands saber was built into his arm, Rayf didn't know any defence. And hell...I don't see anybody with the powerlevel of Mace Windu running around there.

I'm going to take this as typical Nai refusal to see reason and ask again: At what point, in normal states, did the 'powerful and skillful' Luke who displayed more power in DE than almost any Jedi Master of old remotely contend with Palpatine?

What point is it, that you don't get, Lightsnake? It doesn't matter if Luke can contend with Sidious. Point is: Sidious attempts to kill him with force lightning and manages to do nothing more but putting him on his ass. End of story. I may ask once more: Do you think the likes of Yoda, Mace, Anakin and Obi-Wan are closer to DE Luke in terms of power - or would rather compare then to untrained Rayf, untrained Leia and weak-against-force-lightning Brand? Is that question simple enough for you, or do I have to find somebody that speaks fluent moron?

Yes, because a saber held at one angle is going to block a massive storm of lightning directed at every part of their body.
We can also assume that they're going to be blocking at one part of their body while the lightning hits them everywhere that isn't blocked.

Rofl. Are you the same guy that told me two paragraphs in the past that holding up your saber is enough to defend against Sidious force lightning? Hilarious.
And no. I'm assuming it will work like it always work, Lightsnake. The Jedi can refocus the lightning to hit nothing but their lightsaber. I wonder that you didn't notice that.

Yes, because Dooku has ever demonstrated anything remotely close to the lightning Palpatine can use by ANH
Mace can block with his bare hands now? And he can deflect it at...close angles. Against a weaker Palpatine. Compared to a more powerful one with far more powerful lightning that won't be concentrated on the saber.
Lightning that fills an entire room. How, exactly, do you survive by blocking that with a saber?

Oh holy shit, dude. Get your head out of your ass. If you don't read what I write, you can simply go and shut up, because I won't waste 2 more minutes of my free-time with you.

Anakin and Obi-Wan can defend themselves against lightning on Dooku level. Got that? Mace and Yoda can defend themselves against lightning on RotS Sidious level. Got that? Okay. If you have understood it that far: Even if Sidious can shoot lightning that fills the entire room, the Jedi will probably be able to draw it to their lightsabers (or in Yoda's case: hands). Then, to overpower them all together with one simultaneous force attack, he needs to generate power on a level that more than doubles his own as seen in RotS (to overpower Mace and Yoda at the same time), adding more than twice the power Dooku could come up with (to simultaneously own Anakin and Obi-Wan).

If you come up with another stupid reply like you presented here, I will happily write that on a nice, heavy piece of wood and whack your head with it.

Considering neither of them has any defense to Force lightning and Palpatine can generate it with enough strength to instantly incapacitate or rip through a human body, their chances are...not good if he goes even remotely all out

Oh cool. Notice people: Neither of that Jedi has any defence to force lightning, hence we saw all of them defending themselves against that ability at least in one instance of the SW mythos. Hooray.

Considering Luke was right there, along with several other Jedi, it's not like he could forgo all care and concern for himself. When you have literally one final chance and all...

Gosh. This is Earth talking, Lightsnake. Yes. Sidious had one last chance. So he was capable of making a decission between trying all he could to get rid of the Jedi and maybe lose his body in the process (which didn't matter as the child was near anyways) or getting killed without defending himself with all he could.

The body was falling apart on him and as the physician said: He was killing himself
He genetically altered one clone and continuously warns Palpatine that he's just going to kill himself faster. "My lord, you're killing yourself!"
Palpatine doesn't disagree.

No, Lightsnake. The physician said that any anger or use of the force would speed up the degeneration of his body. In fact going so far that telling Sidious a single force use will kill him. And it's still the same guy who was responsible for said Clone failing at all.

'Attempting to kill?' He hits Luke full on with just a small blast. Considering he expresses zero surprise that Luke is able to stand and even continues his speech with no pause or shock. he even then tells Luke "YOU can be stronger than he was! Are you going to let your sister get the better of you!"
Palpatine's priorities are rather mixed up if he aims to kill Luke and THEN wants him to grow stronger than Vader

Is that the same Sidious who, at that point in time - as mentioned in the appendix to the DE comic, wanted to summon another force storm to kill Luke and Leia? Uh-hu. So apparently he wanted to kill Luke before the duel, in the duel and after the duel.

Kinda puts paid to the idea Kam was the most powerful of these group, considering Goir and Sedriss both knew how to use, as Luke says 'the old Sith trick.'
And unless Palpatine has forgotten to throw up a force shield, his ability to defend is kind of strong

Note: I question Rayfs ability to defend himself against Force Lightning. Lightsnake replies talking some random crap. Admit it. You're a bot programmed to random quote-and-answer me...

Yes, the guy who just disabled a Dark Side adept with no effort and the old Republic Jedi are 'totally' defenseless. Again: They have sabers. Since when did Obi-wan ever encounter Force Lightning before Dooku now? And how would lightning hitting Brand's saber-where the energy is absorbed by it- damage his suit whatsoever?

Oh look. After telling me that putting your saber in the way of Sidious lightning would help, then telling me it won't do anything, we're now back at the "Oh they could just have moved their saber into the way" scenario. Brilliant.

And if the Jedi he chooses to kill is Yoda? If he decides to lash out with an attack of Malacia or Morichro at Obi-wan and Anakin while he does it? If he uses his own invented technique to instantly slaughter one Jedi and then uses the same on another?

Oh cool. Now Lightsnake is reacting on something I basically asked 30 replies ago: How many force attacks do you think Sidious can use before the Jedi reach him. No answer. But obviously. Our Sidious fanboy number one would answer this question with "Whatever number of opponents he's facing - that is the number of force attacks he can perform before having to engage them in a lightsaber duel. And of course, he will perform four force attacks simultaneously if that's the only way for him winning."

And if Yoda's the one he kills? By the time the others are attacking him, he could turn his attention to them and Yoda'd be the only one to keep the time alive. Which is a moot point if Palpatine unleashes the same technique on him as well

Lightsnake is talking in a language you can't understand. First: There is nothing to suggest that he even can kill Yoda with a single, instantenous working force attack. Second: Even if we assume that he can do the job, that means he has to engaged Anakin, Mace and Obi-Wan in lightsaber combat. Unless we're arguing that they are attacking him from a mile of range, because we're fanboys and need him to perform 120 force attacks before he even gets in the remote danger of getting cut into pieces.

Taking the leaf from Gideon:
"while none of [the dark side adepts] didn't compare to Palpatine's own level of power, many of them were quite powerful indeed."
Funny how you suddenly decide on this double standard considering many of your beloved Ancients just appear on the field and get trashed in any given occasion. No achievment, no grandeur in terms of force powers or lightsaber ability.
The Dark Side Elite might get trashed by a quartet of Jedi, but at least nobody's touting them as the most powerful people ever

Oh look. Lightsnake demonstrating his superior fishing skills, presenting us a big, nice and fat Red Herring in his desperate attempt to get away from the topic. Bohoo. Thanks for agreeing that they aren't powerful. I'm going to leave it like that.

Because going after Luke when he isn't poisoned isn't going to result in a horribly messy death.

Yes. Because he will dodge blaster bolts and lightsaber strikes while being asleep and lying on his bed.

He has a year between first appearance and EE and considering his and Jem's apparent potential? He goes from that to being able to take on the most powerful Dark Siders in the Galaxy.

Hey. Look. LIEsnake is on the run again. I could swear I just demonstrated that there isn't a year passing between the events shown in DE II and the events shown in EE.

Should say something about his potential then.

Oh? It should? As far as I recall Luke Skywalker, still holding the greatest force potential ever (Anakin aside) after going to longer "training" and more combat action than Rayf, was still not able to block weakend force lightning by Sidious, who used it in a weak application to torture the young Jedi in front of him. Luke was also without defence against that particular technique. So what? Sidious was still attacking a defenceless target.

Oh, do stop your hypocrisy. As someone who adores the Ancients, you've the least right of anyone to make that argument. Gideon provided a quote saying the Elite are 'quite' powerful and their leader is strong enough to take on Ood Bnar going all out

Hey look. Lightsnake spent his last holidays in the nature and not only has brought us another Red Herring, nope, he also comes up with an original straw man. As the guy, who doesn't know a damn thing about my opinions, you should better waste your time with something else but attempting to call me out because of my supposed "hypocrisy". And yes. "Quite powerful" is such a decent measure of force abilities. TPM Kenobi was also "quite powerful".

And please. Two of those guys together with the support of several Storm Troopers aren't able to stop Boba Fett. The same two that, in a grandeur action of stupidity, manage to destroy their own ship by pulling a traffic control pylon straight through it. One must be astonished by those people.

I'm just saying that almost every Dark Sider in the SW mythos > the Dark Side elite. You have anything to argue against this? No? How about a nice cup of STFU then?

And this IS the same Mara who kills the extremely powerful Joruus C'Baoth, right? Palpatine's finest assassin? Trained by him personally? Extremely powerful fighter and all with far more combat experience than Luke?

Thanks for repeating my previously made point again (Mara Jade > Dark Jedi elite). If I'll ever develop the desire to own a parrot, you will get the job.

Are you seriously going to attempt to argue that Luke in DE is weaker than Ventress or Jerec? Really, now? When I see them effortlessly take someone who can match power with ancient Jedi Masters in the Force, bring down AT ATs or perform a feat of power that wa extremely difficult to master by old Republic standards, that might hold water

Oh look. Another nice straw man. Nope, dude. I'm suggesting that Ventress and Jerec are more powerful than every single member of the supposed Dark Jedi "Elite".

Leaving him with the most prized knowledge of the best of the Ancient Sith Empire-not counting their spirits at his call, all the knowledge of the Jedi Exiles

Their spirits at his call. Lmao. The same spirits he does visit on Korriban which are questioning him, because he had only ruled for some decades and therefor shouldn't been able to command those who "held dominion over centuries"? Yes. I'm sure they would give Sidious anything he wants - which is why he still has to go and question them after already having access to their knowledge directly (as you suppose) for at least 30 years. Or can it be that the only quote mentioning his summoning of Sith spirits is hyperbole on the same level with that quote in the DSSB which states that he was "blotting out the stars" and "spread his rule to other galaxies"?

Last I recall, it says only 'select Jedi Masters,'

And last I recall, Anakin desperately wanted a seat on the Jedi Council because only with that he would be allowed to access said information in the archieves. Aside of that I don't see why anybody would grant Dooku, one of the people who constantly opposed the Council, access to such information.

Under Traya's tutelage? You don't make a Sith Holocron unless you know a LOT by the very nature of it.

Creating a holocron is a certain technique, Lightsnake. And given that most of the Sith known to us where quite eager to prolong their own existance (through Force stasis, Alchemy, Clones etc.) one could develop the thought that creating a holocron is one path to "immortality" in a certain sense. And please. Bastilla Shan's father constructed a holocron that he used as journal. If the technique is so demanding, one should assume that it wouldn't be used for every-day-routine.

Sith leave a bit of themselves there, including all their intellect and Krayt's accessing of the Holocron? It'd stand to reason there's a little bit more than 'oooh, history!'

Go on and prove it, Lightsnake. Oh. You can't? Unless the knowledge contained in a source is defined in any way, it's worthless in concrete terms. So even if Sidious had a gigantic pile of holocrons in a storehouse on Coruscant, it doesn't matter unless you can come up with any information stored within them.

Where exactly did Amanoa learn all its secrets? Considering Nadd used its knowledge as well as it being such a legendary and treasured Holocron amongst the Sith, even after the Exiles arrived?

Oh what, Lightsnake? Are we only blindly thrusting quotes when they say anything that matches our opinion? Was that you who called me a hypocrite? See. The matter of fact is this: We don't know what the holocron contained. It could be priceless Ancient Sith knowledge, the personal journal of said Ancient Sith King, or a user manual for Adas's DVD-Recorder. The fact that Nadd studied it and still sought training under Sadow and that Amanoa as well studied it, and was still defeated by Arca Jeth, actually lead to the suggestion that the knowledge contained within seems to be rather limited.

There's a recording of Dooku on it, yes. There's also one of Qordis...and Qordis never so much as touched a Sith Holocron containing any wisdom from the ages.

Says who, Lightsnake? You? I'm afraid. To record things in a holocron you must have access to said holocron, meaning the facts are simply contradicting your personal opinion.

Refer to Gideon's post last page

You mean the one where he quotes Publius? Who does nothing but list sources of Ancient Sith knowledge that Sidious had access to, without closer defining when he gained them (which makes them worthless for answering my question) and without specifying the knowledge they contained, making them - by Publius own words - "worthless in concrete terms"?

Enyalus, when I see your arguments, I'm practically suffocating beneath the fog of WRONG! that you seem to create.

Prove that Bane's lightning is more powerful than Palpatine's.