DE Sidious vs ROTS Yoda, Mace, Anakin, and Obi Wan

Also in the resurrection comic (Pre ANH) btw Sidious's lightning chars 3 dark acolytes into skeletons. So I don't see how DE Sidious couldn't do the same .

Oh, where to begin? We'll deal with kotor3 first.

Originally posted by kotor3
You are quite funny. You are being nice as if I need you to be. Get off the high seat. I already stated that I was not serious when I made this thread. But look the great debater is going to show everyone how DE Sidious could win.

I would use the same "I wasn't being serious" excuse as well if I didn't create a thread and then offer serious(ly stupid) rebuttals and watched them get shredded. Sadly, I've never found myself in such a predicament, though I'm fairly certain I could manage it with greater class than you can muster.

Great debaters do not need to throw in insults, they give good and valid arguments as to why there points are correct.

I have already done so. Your inappropriate sarcasm was equally unnecessary. It's evident that you're not held in high regard, so let's not pretend that your opinion actually means something in the grand scheme of things. This is the status quo. Save your personal outrage with me until such a time when you can actually summon the ability to debate on a level exceeding that of your local Special Ed. class, which I would highly recommend that you join.

Here is some point’s great debater, you never gave any examples as to what force attacks Sidious would use to take Anakin and Obi Wan out quickly. Clearly if you have you could have changed people minds. All you said was "Palpatine's mastery of the Force at this point is demonstrably higher by a notable degree than Kenobi's, Skywalker's, Windu's, or Yoda's". Duh!

Your apparent inability to read makes me question why I should take the time to answer you again and again. This will be for the final time. Despite the fact that he was pushed on the defensive, desperate, and in the throes of what would be a "Force shut down", Count Dooku managed to disable Obi-Wan with mere telekinesis not once but twice, while simultaneously keeping Skywalker at bay. Moreover, Skywalker later demonstrates Force mastery that is only equal to Kenobi's during their duel on Mustafar. Here, we are dealing with an individual whose potency and mastery of the Force is lightyears ahead of Count Dooku's. It is logical that Darth Sidious, at this point, would be easily capable of manhandling Kenobi and Skywalker simultaneously with sheer telekinesis, since he is aware of their abilities intimately and is a strong proponent of self preservation.

Gideon you are full of yourself and you make me laugh with your arguments.

Do you typically laugh when being beaten in an argument? That's actually quite admirable. The rest of us laugh when we find genuine humor in situations, such as the sheer hilarity of your rebuttals and apparent illiteracy.

Oh and you are the silly one to think that two Jedi won’t work coordinate together under the right leadership. They are trained soldiers but once again I should be quite against the great debater.

Someone has spent too much time playing KotOR and actually hasn't watched the movies. For the record, the movies are vastly more important or better than that game. Here is one clear statement from Mace Windu in Attack of the Clones: "We're keepers of the peace, not soldiers."

Moreover, I've explained to you once that a powerful, seasoned duo (the Jedi Order's greatest team) was unable to fight efficiently against Dooku. What makes you think that the presence of Windu or Yoda would make a difference, since they have never worked with Skywalker or Kenobi in combat?

In essence, your syllogism is absolutely retarded. Since you cannot summon the courtesy of actually forming a logical argument, perhaps you would spend the rest of your overabundant time making up better excuses for your grotesque failures?

Thanks,
Gideon.

On to Great Vengeance.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
@'Schwarzenegger' I have no time to respond to dumbasses like you. You didnt provide any arguments at all, all you did was try to protect Gideon like hes your boyfriend or something. Grow up, Gideon can handle himself.

@Faunus

So they do infact wave there hand and annihilate people then? Sources would be nice, or atleast identify the attack you are talking about.

Umm show me where DE Sids can vaporize lightsabers or even people and then we will talk.

Lightning is a form of energy. Energy is more potent when its concentrated. Physics 101.

No, he wouldnt. Theres nothing to suggest Anakin and Obi wan would be teared apart here before Yoda and Mace can even get in range. And by that time Sids will be too occupied with protecting himself, if he went all out against Anakin or Obi Wan by that time he would lose his head to Yoda or Mace.

Ill agree that Luke is stronger, but not by as much as you think. And if DE Luke can give DE Sids a run for his money, do you really think its reasonable that DE Sids would annihilate Anakin in .5 seconds?

And for the record Faunus I respect you, and think your a pretty cool guy.

But I think your just doing this to help Gideon out, and hes quite capable of arguing this himself.

I called him a fanboy because thats what he is, hes supported Sidious ever since Ive known him. Calling somone a fanboy isnt a bad insult though, unlike some of the shit thats been going down in this thread.

Originally posted by Gideon

I have already done so. Your inappropriate sarcasm was equally unnecessary. It's evident that you're not held in high regard, so let's not pretend that your opinion actually means something in the grand scheme of things. This is the status quo. Save your personal outrage with me until such a time when you can actually summon the ability to debate on a level exceeding that of your local Special Ed. class, which I would highly recommend that you join.

Lol this was funny as hell so considered it profiled.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
ROFL why is this still going on. Stop being a fanboy Gideon.

You will pardon me if I don't take demands of an individual who, judging by the extent of his claims (LOLZ REVAN > YODA and REVAN > SIDIOUS; your ignorance of the items regarding Dark Empire), apparently has no understanding of canon or of continuity. Given your incredible ignorance, rather than attack me and accuse me of fanboyism, you would do better to ask questions rather than assume I'm wrong.

Palps doesnt magically wave his hand and annihilate people.

Count Dooku did it to these very same individuals, despite being pushed on the defensive, desperate, and going into Force shut down during their lightsaber exchange. The Emperor is considerably more powerful than the Count as of Revenge of the Sith and vastly so circa Dark Empire.

Force storm isnt applicable here, so that leaves us with Palpys force lightning as his primary force attack.

Palpatine is the undisputed master of Force knowledge in the mythos. His knowledge of the Force and its technique surpass any and all individuals in depth and width. I find it a bit silly to assume he'll just rely on Force lightning. Not that it matters, of course, since it is all he'll need. He's capable of, around A New Hope, disintegrating three powerful Sith acolytes into ash with a casual burst; lighting up his entire office and destroying a batallion of stormtroopers; and mortally injuring two Jedi at a time when each usage of the Force brought him closer to death's door and he was "barely able to walk."

I already explained to Darkserpent how this will not be effective against 4 opponents because he will have to split his power, and Yoda or Mace will inevitably break out of his half assed lightning attack and then force it into a saber battle.

He's capable of waving his hand and disposing of the lesser Jedi. Windu can only compete with Sidious on a physical level after the many seconds it takes to submerge in Vaapad, but otherwise he is equally vulnerable to the Emperor's superior command of the Force. The only Jedi here remotely comparable to the Emperor is Yoda.

1v4 with two opponents being rather close to Sids in power, I think you will agree that the Jedi win out.

It won't be one versus four and none of them are "close." Though, I already said, if this were a saber fight, he'd be ****ed to an unquantifiable degree.

And your underrating Anakin and Obi Wan alot. They are far from weak, in fact it could stand to reason that Anakin is close to DE Luke in power. Think about it, Anakin has as much potential as Luke does if not more, and has trained alot longer. I'll grant that DE Luke has shown more impressive feats.

Your suppositions =/= fact. I don't necessarily disagree with the comparison to Luke, but you'll need to provide far more proof than this.

But either way, Sids dies in this battle, the odds are stacked against him.

You, actually, haven't proven that at all nor come close.

Gideon, can you give us a senario where Sidious will be able to beat the team? I think they're smart enough to know that sabers is their best chance, and Sids is smart enough to realize that he must avoid a duel.

How many feet should be separating the team from Sidious to give him a chance, would surrounding him make a difference (I assume not with Bane's type of Force Storm [not the wormhole type] coming into play), etc.?

All-out, of course.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
@'Schwarzenegger' I have no time to respond to dumbasses like you. You didnt provide any arguments at all, all you did was try to protect Gideon like hes your boyfriend or something. Grow up, Gideon can handle himself.

He certainly can and, if he may say so, doing a spectacular job.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
So they do infact wave there hand and annihilate people then? Sources would be nice, or atleast identify the attack you are talking about.

Simple. Telekinesis. Revenge of Sith. Final time I will offer such an explanation.

Umm show me where DE Sids can vaporize lightsabers or even people and then we will talk.

Show you where Dark Empire Sidious can vaporize lightsabers? I'm going to go out on a limb here and say... Dark Empire.

Lightning is a form of energy. Energy is more potent when its concentrated. Physics 101.

Irrelevant. Palpatine can create lightning storms that fill rooms. He's already demonstrated the ability to overpower Yoda and Windu with lightning even when they're armed with lightsabers.

No, he wouldnt. Theres nothing to suggest Anakin and Obi wan would be teared apart here before Yoda and Mace can even get in range. And by that time Sids will be too occupied with protecting himself, if he went all out against Anakin or Obi Wan by that time he would lose his head to Yoda or Mace.

He waves his hand, Kenobi and Skywalker are gone. It's as simple as that.

Ill agree that Luke is stronger, but not by as much as you think. And if DE Luke can give DE Sids a run for his money, do you really think its reasonable that DE Sids would annihilate Anakin in .5 seconds?

Luke can't do shit against Palpatine in this era in the Force and his lightsaber victory was under ambiguous circumstances, though, as I said, Palpatine would be royally ****ed if this came down to a lightsaber fight. It won't, though.

And for the record Faunus I respect you, and think your a pretty cool guy. But I think your just doing this to help Gideon out, and hes quite capable of arguing this himself. I called him a fanboy because thats what he is, hes supported Sidious ever since Ive known him. Calling somone a fanboy isnt a bad insult though, unlike some of the shit thats been going down in this thread.

This is where people confuse fanboyism with reality. Canon has shown that Palpatine is stronger than previous Sith, smarter than previous Sith, is more knowledgeable than previous Sith, and more successful than previous Sith. I'm just the messenger. You want the real Sidious fanboys? Take it up with LFL.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Gideon, can you give us a senario where Sidious will be able to beat the team? I think they're smart enough to know that sabers is their best chance, and Sids is smart enough to realize that he must avoid a duel.

None of them have ever faced Dark Empire Sidious before. In his previous incarnation, Yoda was able to fight him to a standstill and Windu was able to gain a legitimate victory over him. He knows far more about his opponents than they know about him.

How many feet should be separating the team from Sidious to give him a chance, would surrounding him make a difference (I assume not with Bane's type of Force Storm [not the wormhole type] coming into play), etc.?

All-out, of course.

It doesn't matter. As I said, if it's close enough that they can just rush him in three tenths of a second and make this a lightsaber duel, he'll be owned. But he is faster than all four of them. Moreover, yes, he can overpower any of them with Force lightning and is capable of spreading it out to encompass a room.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
@'Schwarzenegger' I have no time to respond to dumbasses like you. You didnt provide any arguments at all, all you did was try to protect Gideon like hes your boyfriend or something. Grow up, Gideon can handle himself.

If its anyone being a dumbass, its you hun, making absurd claims without backing it up and calling other people a dumbass?

Again i made it clear(its a pity you don't know how to read) as to why i didn't make any arguments in the first place, your inability to read is completely not my damn problem.

Oh and i didn't "protect" gideon, i simply respect him and needed to shut up a kotor fangay that tried to make gideon look like a dumbass, and people like you lack respect for anyone hence nobody is going to take you seriously.

Not happy with me? Do as the man faunus said, ignore me, theres a reason why they put the "ignore" option in the first place.

Originally posted by Kotor3
You really handed my ass to me with those statements. Cool down Schwarzenegger, nobody is calling you gay. Cursing now are we? Even though this is quite entertaining to me I will leave you alone since you are so sensitive.

I just happen to enjoy insulting people with ragiing shemale hormones(like you).

Thats enough.. for now, i'll just add both of you into my "ignore list" for the time being so don't even bother thinking of replying.

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
If its anyone being a dumbass, its you hun, making absurd claims without backing it up and calling other people a dumbass?

Again i made it clear(its a pity you don't know how to read) as to [b]why i didn't make any arguments in the first place, your inability to read is completely not my damn problem.

Oh and i didn't "protect" gideon, i simply respect him and needed to shut up a kotor fangay that tried to make gideon look like a dumbass, and people like you lack respect for anyone hence nobody is going to take you seriously.

Not happy with me? Do as the man faunus said, ignore me, theres a reason why they put the "ignore" option in the first place.

The thing is i AM gay, in the sense that i'm "happy and cheerful".

I just happen to enjoy insulting people with ragiing shemale hormones(like you).

Thats enough.. for now, i'll just add both of you into my "ignore list" for the time being so don't even bother thinking of replying. [/B]

@Faunus

Force-crush, Morichro/Malacia (although these take longer), the grip/choke/throw that Dooku did to Kenobi, Force-sever, or simply lock them into stasis. Master Farfalla managed to do this to Bane for a split second, so Sidious would certainly be able to do it to people not even remotely close to him in Force mastery.

Force crush is an attack in kotor, its a game mechanic so I doubt its even canon. And Sidious has certainly not shown to be able to do it so lets leave it at that. Being the top sith isnt proof that he knows all techniques, like you and Gideon seem to believe. As you said, Morichro would take too long to save himself from getting engaged in a lightsaber duel. Force choke would take too long, force grip and throw arent fatal attacks they would merely buy him a bit of time. Sidious has never shown force sever, and I dont believe hes shown force stasis. Its possible he knows these attacks, but already your assuming much, and why doesnt he ever use them in situations where they would of been useful? Against Vader for instance. Stasis would of saved his ass from dieing.

See Enyalus' post.

Okay granted, but notice Enyalus' arguments also. And he used it against Leia. I doubt it would work as easily against a competent force user.

Sidious, with one hand, disintegrated a lightsaber. If he does this to Anakin, Obi-Wan, or Mace, they're rendered useless.

See above.

That's my point. I'm not giving Sidious a real chance to win, here not at all. I don't see him overwhelming Anakin and Obi-Wan before Yoda gets in his face and/or Mace dips into Vaapad and basically leeches whatever speed he tries to use.

It seems you agree with me totally and completely here, so why are you arguing again?

Luke, when by himself, got owned in two moves by Sidious. Anakin would last a little longer in a duel for sure, but his mastery of the Force pales in comparison to that of the older Luke, who can blow up droids with a gesture in a manner similar to the ancient Jedi Masters, shield himself against AT-AT laser blasts, and literally force said machine into the ground.

Umm how did Luke get owned in two moves against Sidious? According to the material that Darkserpent supplied, the battle between Luke and Palpatine was something of an epic duel. I already acknowledged that DE Luke has shown better force feats, but they arent that amazing. Notice that in all three examples you have shown, Luke was dealing with a machine. That hardly proves he was more equipped to deal with Palpys dark side attacks than Anakin.

I'm sure he is. And trust me, there's no reason for me to come to his defense. But if I see faulty arguments and I'm interested enough, I respond to them.

Fair enough. Though you havent proven my arguments are faulty yet, and it seems that we agree on the main idea here. Sids loses this fight.

I'm going to deny bias, but calling someone a fanboy's a copout.

Calling somone a fanboy is only a copout if you dont supply arguments to go along with it.

Force crush is an attack in kotor, its a game mechanic so I doubt its even canon. And Sidious has certainly not shown to be able to do it so lets leave it at that.

Mace Windu used Force Crush on Grevious' body during the Clone Wars, and Darth Zannah used it against the healer Caleb as torture...just two examples, non-game, off the top of my head.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Mace Windu used Force Crush on Grevious' body during the Clone Wars, and Darth Zannah used it against the healer Caleb as torture...just two examples, non-game, off the top of my head.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
[B]@Faunus

Force crush is an attack in kotor, its a game mechanic so I doubt its even canon. And Sidious has certainly not shown to be able to do it so lets leave it at that. Being the top sith isnt proof that he knows all techniques, like you and Gideon seem to believe. As you said, Morichro would take too long to save himself from getting engaged in a lightsaber duel. Force choke would take too long, force grip and throw arent fatal attacks they would merely buy him a bit of time. Sidious has never shown force sever, and I dont believe hes shown force stasis. Its possible he knows these attacks, but already your assuming much, and why doesnt he ever use them in situations where they would of been useful? Against Vader for instance. Stasis would of saved his ass from dieing.

Okay granted, but notice Enyalus' arguments also. And he used it against Leia. I doubt it would work as easily against a competent force user.

See above.

Umm how did Luke get owned in two moves against Sidious? According to the material that Darkserpent supplied, the battle between Luke and Palpatine was something of an epic duel. I already acknowledged that DE Luke has shown better force feats, but they arent that amazing. Notice that in all three examples you have shown, Luke was dealing with a machine. That hardly proves he was more equipped to deal with Palpys dark side attacks than Anakin.

You will pardon me if I don't take demands of an individual who, judging by the extent of his claims (LOLZ REVAN > YODA and REVAN > SIDIOUS; your ignorance of the items regarding Dark Empire), apparently has no understanding of canon or of continuity. Given your incredible ignorance, rather than attack me and accuse me of fanboyism, you would do better to ask questions rather than assume I'm wrong.

Its funny you mention that previous debate, you conviently left in the middle of the debate.

I'll grant to you that I havent read as much Post ROTJ stuff as you have. Its not my cup of tea. But I can still smell bad arguments, you inflate Sids powers to ridiculous levels.

Count Dooku did it to these very same individuals, despite being pushed on the defensive, desperate, and going into Force shut down during their lightsaber exchange. The Emperor is considerably more powerful than the Count as of Revenge of the Sith and vastly so circa Dark Empire.

Umm, Anakin owned Dooku, as is clearly evident by anyone that watched the movie. Ill grant that he used the force to defeat Obi wan, but that was by moving that HUGE object on top of him after the force grip. Force grip alone cant defeat somone. And if Dooku was so desperate and defensive, that was because he was being out maneuvered. I fail to see the relevence. Also The Emperor isnt vastly more powerful than Dooku, thats ridiculous. Dooku was able to hold off Yoda for a good while. The Emperor is stronger, but not by a vast amount.

Palpatine is the undisputed master of Force knowledge in the mythos. His knowledge of the Force and its technique surpass any and all individuals in depth and width.

And the hyperbole begins.

I find it a bit silly to assume he'll just rely on Force lightning. Not that it matters, of course, since it is all he'll need. He's capable of, around A New Hope, disintegrating three powerful Sith acolytes into ash with a casual burst; lighting up his entire office and destroying a batallion of stormtroopers; and mortally injuring two Jedi at a time when each usage of the Force brought him closer to death's door and he was "barely able to walk."

Force lightning has proven time and time against to be Sids staple and most effective attack. Force storm is more powerful, but its not applicable in close quarters.

I hardly consider Sids defeating some lowly acolytes to be relevent here. The Jedi he is facing are some of the most powerful the galaxy has ever known. Stormtroopers........? Your stretching now. I assume the Jedi you mean were in Lukes strike force when Palpy goes after the child. They were new order Jedi, and hardly comparable to Anakin 'The Chosen One' or Obi Wan much less Yoda.

He's capable of waving his hand and disposing of the lesser Jedi. Windu can only compete with Sidious on a physical level after the many seconds it takes to submerge in Vaapad, but otherwise he is equally vulnerable to the Emperor's superior command of the Force. The only Jedi here remotely comparable to the Emperor is Yoda.

No he isnt going to wave his hand and destroy 3 very powerful Jedi. You have no proof at all, and frankly your being ridiculous.

Though, I already said, if this were a saber fight, he'd be ****ed to an unquantifiable degree.

Agreed.

Your suppositions =/= fact. I don't necessarily disagree with the comparison to Luke, but you'll need to provide far more proof than this.

Your suppositions dont =/= fact either. You accuse me of needing proof when atleast my supposition was reasonable(like you yourself said) while the main point of your argument is that Sidious would wave his hand and defeat 3 of the most powerful Jedi ever?

Simple. Telekinesis. Revenge of Sith. Final time I will offer such an explanation.

Show you where Dark Empire Sidious can vaporize lightsabers? I'm going to go out on a limb here and say... Dark Empire.

He waves his hand, Kenobi and Skywalker are gone. It's as simple as that.

You'll excuse me if I ignore these, Ive addressed them already.

Irrelevant. Palpatine can create lightning storms that fill rooms. He's already demonstrated the ability to overpower Yoda and Windu with lightning even when they're armed with lightsabers.

No its still relevent. Lightning that fills a room cannot be as powerful as a concentrated blast.

Did you watch the same movie I did? It seemed pretty clear to me that Yoda stopped Sids force lightning with his bare hands and then threw it back at his ass. Mace stopped the lightning also and redirected it in his face. Mace was only defeated when Anakin cut his arm off and he lost his lightsaber. Mace will have his lightsaber in this duel.

Luke can't do shit against Palpatine in this era in the Force and his lightsaber victory was under ambiguous circumstances, though, as I said, Palpatine would be royally ****ed if this came down to a lightsaber fight. It won't, though.

Even with some support from Leia, Luke still won and that sheds an unfavorable light on DE Sids supposedly godlike powers.

This is where people confuse fanboyism with reality. Canon has shown that Palpatine is stronger than previous Sith, smarter than previous Sith, is more knowledgeable than previous Sith, and more successful than previous Sith. I'm just the messenger. You want the real Sidious fanboys? Take it up with LFL.

This fight isnt related to the sith. And your far from an objective messenger.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
I hardly consider Sids defeating some lowly acolytes to be relevent here. The Jedi he is facing are some of the most powerful the galaxy has ever known. Stormtroopers........? Your stretching now. I assume the Jedi you mean were in Lukes strike force when Palpy goes after the child. They were new order Jedi, and hardly comparable to Anakin 'The Chosen One' or Obi Wan much less Yoda.

No he isnt going to wave his hand and destroy 3 very powerful Jedi. You have no proof at all, and frankly your being ridiculous.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
You'll excuse me if I ignore these, Ive addressed them already.

No its still relevent. Lightning that fills a room cannot be as powerful as a concentrated blast.

This fight isnt related to the sith. And your far from an objective messenger.

I see Palpatine killing two members of the team, before being forced into a duel and losing. Obi-Wan and Anakin would be the most likely. If Sidious is good at making split second, in-combat decisions, he'll target Mace and Anakin though.

Mace's submersion in Vaapad doesn't take that long. He was holding his own against Palpatine from the outset. If he wasn't submerged in Vaapad for the first few moments of that duel, it only adds to his saber skills. I think if Sidious from the outset strikes at Mace with Lightning, he wouldn't be able to handle it and it would end up killing him. Ditto with Anakin.

However, Obi-Wan and Anakin would be easier to kill with the Force, and if he opts for that, then he's going to have to deal with Yoda and Mace in sabers and will be screwed.

Attempting to strike Yoda and Mace, or even Yoda, with the Force - is going to take a lot of power and most likely not even kill Yoda, so that would be a wasted effort. If he takes out Anakin and Mace (assuming he can take Mace before he uses Vaapad), that leaves Yoda and Obi-Wan to fend off in sabers - Obi-Wan would more than likely use Sorseu and be defensive, which would be DE Sidious' only chance to win this battle.

Any other attempt is going to end in failure. If he attempts to use Force Storm and hit all four members, it isn't going to be strong enough to kill anyone. Perhaps it incapacitates Anakin. Hardly going to disintegrate them, though. These are four of the best PT Jedi of their era. And have lightsabers to defend themselves and soak some or all of the damage.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Force crush is an attack in kotor, its a game mechanic so I doubt its even canon.

And Sidious has certainly not shown to be able to do it so lets leave it at that. Being the top sith isnt proof that he knows all techniques, like you and Gideon seem to believe. As you said, Morichro would take too long to save himself from getting engaged in a lightsaber duel. Force choke would take too long, force grip and throw arent fatal attacks they would merely buy him a bit of time. Sidious has never shown force sever, and I dont believe hes shown force stasis. Its possible he knows these attacks, but already your assuming much, and why doesnt he ever use them in situations where they would of been useful? Against Vader for instance. Stasis would of saved his ass from dieing.

From the Dark Empire Sourcebook, apparently. A ridiculous quote from a presumably ridiculous book, but it stands. Sidious can do pretty much anything any previous Dark Lord has done under his/her own power.

Okay granted, but notice Enyalus' arguments also. And he used it against Leia. I doubt it would work as easily against a competent force user.

It seems you agree with me totally and completely here, so why are you arguing again?

Umm how did Luke get owned in two moves against Sidious?

He got owned.

Notice that in all three examples you have shown, Luke was dealing with a machine. That hardly proves he was more equipped to deal with Palpys dark side attacks than Anakin.

Calling somone a fanboy is only a copout if you dont supply arguments to go along with it.

I certainly agree that DE Sidious is no god, but you're downplaying his abilities considerably.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Mace's submersion in Vaapad doesn't take that long.