DE Sidious vs ROTS Yoda, Mace, Anakin, and Obi Wan

@ LS

It's still enough to kill. Someone as powerful as Palpatine is going to generate remarkably powerful lightning, no matter how spread out

Please learn what you are talking about. At that point, according to sources as the audiobook, Luke and Palpatine essentially entered into avatar states of the Force, Luke of the light and Palpatine of the dark.

Alright I'll grant this.

And Palpatine won't be faking any weakness in this duel, either, nor will he be needing to turn Anakin. This is a different and more powerful Palpatine.

The argument that Palpy lost on purpose to Mace to turn Anakin has always been sketchy at best. Palpy is stronger this time, but now hes facing four opponents.

One needs a moment of concentration and clarity. Vader's attack caught him totally off guard.

If stasis needs concentration to power up, than hes already dead from the charging Jedi. Gideons argument requires that he dispatch Anakin and Obi wan before the saber battle is even engaged. Afterwards Sids will be too occupied.

He's powerful enough so it would hardly matter anyways

Obi-wan and Anakin or Mace can really defend from him in the Force?

Im not debating they would not lose individually in an extended force battle. Palpy doesnt have alot of time though, Yoda and Mace will be down his throat within seconds.

He disintegrates an army of battle droids with a wave of his hand. Just ONE is a difficult technique from the old republic times.

Whats your source for this and why is destroying a droid so difficult? Its simple machinery.

And the first duel had Luke bested rather easily

@Faunus

It's canon. Nejaa Halcyon used it to break every bone in a Dark Jedi's body, and I'm pretty sure it's mentioned in the New Essential Guide to the Force.

"[Sidious] has fully mastered every single dark side technique ever devised and invents new ones at his leisure."

It doesn't really matter. You think Anakin or Obi-Wan's Force-defenses can halt Palpatine's lightning?

Yeah, long enough. And even if he breaks there lightsaber defense, lightning doesnt kill powerful force users instantly. Even ROTJ Luke could survive for awhile. And Palpy has very limited time to carry out the deed.

Because I agree that Sidious dies, but pieces of your argument are flawed and invalid.

All arguments have holes. Yes you or LS point have pointed out some trivia that I was unaware of, but my central point remains untouched as Gideons argument is based on Sids pulling out his wtfpwn moves to defeat 3 powerful Jedi in a matter of seconds.

If you haven't read Dark Empire - I've looked at the ten relevant pages - at least Wiki it. Luke tried to destroy Palpatine's clones when the Sith Lord was attempting to possess them, and he missed one. He Force-pushed Sidious down for a moment, and then they both summoned lightsabers. They clashed once, and the next panel Luke was on his ass, with his lightsaber flying away.

Yeah LS informed me of this.

You tell me what Anakin's ever done with the Force that remotely approaches those feats in magnitude. He's a better duelist, but an inferior master of the Force.

Surviving being cut in half and burned alive in lava for one. Its agreed though that overall DE Luke has shown more impressive force feats. Keep in mind though that lightsaber skill is heavily correlated with ability in the force.

Originally posted by Gideon
Oh, where to begin? We'll deal with kotor3 first.

Originally posted by Gideon

I would use the same "I wasn't being serious" excuse as well if I didn't create a thread and then offer serious(ly stupid) rebuttals and watched them get shredded. Sadly, I've never found myself in such a predicament, though I'm fairly certain I could manage it with greater class than you can muster.

A definite appropriate statement showing that you are purely full of yourself. I like that because it will be very nice to humble someone like you.

Originally posted by Gideon

I have already done so. Your inappropriate sarcasm was equally unnecessary. It's evident that you're not held in high regard, so let's not pretend that your opinion actually means something in the grand scheme of things. This is the status quo. Save your personal outrage with me until such a time when you can actually summon the ability to debate on a level exceeding that of your local Special Ed. class, which I would highly recommend that you join.

Wrong you have not. If anyone sarcasm was inappropriate it was yours. As for all of your sarcasm and little jokes, believe me you do not want to get into that with me.

So far, once again your statements show nothing!

Originally posted by Gideon

Your apparent inability to read makes me question why I should take the time to answer you again and again. This will be for the final time. Despite the fact that he was pushed on the defensive, desperate, and in the throes of what would be a "Force shut down", Count Dooku managed to disable Obi-Wan with mere telekinesis not once but twice, while simultaneously keeping Skywalker at bay. Moreover, Skywalker later demonstrates Force mastery that is only equal to Kenobi's during their duel on Mustafar. Here, we are dealing with an individual whose potency and mastery of the Force is lightyears ahead of Count Dooku's. It is logical that Darth Sidious, at this point, would be easily capable of manhandling Kenobi and Skywalker simultaneously with sheer telekinesis, since he is aware of their abilities intimately and is a strong proponent of self preservation.

Finally you decide to address the topic. Anakin and Obi Wan vs DE Sidious no doubt would be destruction for Anakin and Obi Wan. However there are two more people who are more powerful than Anakin and Obi Wan, Yoda and Mace who DE Sidious has to contend with.

So tell me as DE Sidious is using telekinesis on Obi Wan or Anakin or both at the same time, would that not leave him open to Mace and Yoda?

Also while DE Sidious throws one or both of them, Yoda could one save one or two while Mace engages DE Sidious who is left open. So I do not see how telekinesis or force lighting would be able to save DE Sidious from engaging in a saber fight.

Originally posted by Gideon

Do you typically laugh when being beaten in an argument? That's actually quite admirable. The rest of us laugh when we find genuine humor in situations, such as the sheer hilarity of your rebuttals and apparent illiteracy.

Full of yourself. Stay on topic.

Originally posted by Gideon

Someone has spent too much time playing KotOR and actually hasn't watched the movies. For the record, the movies are vastly more important or better than that game. Here is one clear statement from Mace Windu in Attack of the Clones: "We're keepers of the peace, not soldiers."

I do not know where you get the Kotor thing from, but I do like kotor as I believe everyone else here does.

Gideon are not cops keepers of peace? There are government agencies that focus on terrorism that can be considered keepers of peace. They are all soldiers, trained in a specific duty to protect but there abilities can cause them to kill someone who disturbs the peace or law.

So tell me, in star wars Jedi are different? They help the republic to fight against enemies and sith. They are trained to protect but there abilities can cause them to kill which they will do at times. Jedi are not monks or priest.

Originally posted by Gideon

Moreover, I've explained to you once that a powerful, seasoned duo (the Jedi Order's greatest team) was unable to fight efficiently against Dooku. What makes you think that the presence of Windu or Yoda would make a difference, since they have never worked with Skywalker or Kenobi in combat?

See statement above.

Originally posted by Gideon

In essence, your syllogism is absolutely retarded. Since you cannot summon the courtesy of actually forming a logical argument, perhaps you would spend the rest of your overabundant time making up better excuses for your grotesque failures?

Thanks,
Gideon.

On to Great Vengeance.

Oh Gideon hopefully you have better responses then the ones you came up with in this post. You need to stop praising yourself and look at your arguments.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
@Faunus

Alright. But do you really think that Sids will overpower the defenses of Anakin and Obi Wan and crush them with the force before somone can intervene?

Force crush no doubt takes time and alot of concentration. And there defenses arent going to be overwhelmed instantly.

Yeah, long enough. And even if he breaks there lightsaber defense, lightning doesnt kill powerful force users instantly.

Even ROTJ Luke could survive for awhile.

And Palpy has very limited time to carry out the deed.

Surviving being cut in half and burned alive in lava for one.

Its agreed though that overall DE Luke has shown more impressive force feats. Keep in mind though that lightsaber skill is heavily correlated with ability in the force.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
[B]@ LS

I have to disagree with this. His watered down lightning is not enough to overpower two powerful Jedi Anakin and Obi wan, before the saber battle is engaged.

Alright I'll grant this.

The argument that Palpy lost on purpose to Mace to turn Anakin has always been sketchy at best. Palpy is stronger this time, but now hes facing four opponents.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
If stasis needs concentration to power up, than hes already dead from the charging Jedi. Gideons argument requires that he dispatch Anakin and Obi wan before the saber battle is even engaged. Afterwards Sids will be too occupied.

Granted. [/QUOTE]

DE Sidsious owns the force battle... Now those who disagree let it go.

Lightsnake I want to address this one to you. I have seen different responses but how much more powerful is DE Sidious to ROTS Sidious?

Also I have seen threads in which it has been argued that DE Sidious could defeat two powerful sith lords who work together to defeat him such as, Revan and Bane. People would argue that Yoda and Mace could fair well if not defeat Revan and Bane.

I guess my next question is even if Obi Wan and Anakin were taken out by force lighting could DE Sidious defeat Mace and Yoda?

@Faunus

Again, Dooku it. So can Sidious.

Force-crush takes no such thing. It's applied telekinesis. None of the CWC instances (Mace, Anakin) take more than a gesture.

It can. Sidious, with one hand, completely disintegrated three dark side acolytes. If this lightning is going to hit Anakin and Obi-Wan after reducing their metal lightsaber to ash, they're going to die.

As Ive stated before, some lowly acolytes are in no way comparable to Anakin and Obi wan.

Enyalus post said that Palpy waved his hand and destroyed Leias saber, not lightning. That implies some kind of telekinesis.

When Palpatine was torturing him. It's relative to the scenario, and even at the "now you die" point he wasn't using his full, demonstrated power.

Yes ofcourse, but if Palpy is filling the room with lightning it will not be full power either.

He wasn't in lava, he was in really hot sand. Luke, meanwhile, walked on lava and killed some giant monster while doing it.

He was engulfed in flames from the heat of it though. Surviving the deadly wound and then being burned alive is nothing to scoff at any way you look at it.

On a basic level, yes. But Anakin's quality and duration of training completely eclipses that of Luke, and he's done considerably more impressive things with it than Luke has. He would take a duel, but lose dramatically in a Force-battle. It's not like Luke himself hasn't shown a tendency for Force-choking people.

Anakin has had considerably more training in using the force as well. Do you think that they only teach lightsaber combat at the Jedi temple?

@ LS

Spread out lightning, when he was not even trying, annihilated over a hundred human beings. Obi-wan and Anakin have displayed no resistance to lightning and Palpatine can reduce human beings to smoking bone or ash if he wishes.

Killing human beings is like killing sheep to a Sith, I dont consider the feat that impressive. By virtue of being strong in the force, Obi Wan and Anakin must have some resistance to it, and they still have their lightsaber. I havent seen a convincing argument yet which would show that Sidious can destroy a powerful opponents lightsaber at will. He only used it to destroy Leias outdated lightsaber.

The saber duel is one thing, the lightning duel emphatically is not. Lucas outright said Palpatine was faking his weakness and in no way did the lightning deform him to that degree. I believe the most agreed upon definition was Palpatine using a previously unknown force technique to alter his face at a molecular level-we see him change his face in one comic- and either removed it or the lightning removed it.

Yes he was faking his weakness when he was whining about how he was too weak, that he couldnt continue the lightning assault. Palpy no doubt could of continued alot longer, but Mace was redirecting it in his face and lightning directly in the face will do damage to anyone. And arguing that Palpy could of overpowered Mace if he wanted to is stretching it. The movie doesnt suggest it, you would be relying entirely on supposition.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Spread out lightning, when he was not even trying, annihilated over a hundred human beings. Obi-wan and Anakin have displayed no resistance to lightning and Palpatine can reduce human beings to smoking bone or ash if he wishes.

I asking more than stating here Lightsnake, don't you have to be force sensitive or a force user in order to survive or even resist force lighting for any length of time?

If that is true then Sidious killing humans who were not force sensitive would have not bearing on Anakin and Obi Wan.

Originally posted by Lightsnake

The saber duel is one thing, the lightning duel emphatically is not. Lucas outright said Palpatine was faking his weakness and in no way did the lightning deform him to that degree. I believe the most agreed upon definition was Palpatine using a previously unknown force technique to alter his face at a molecular level-we see him change his face in one comic- and either removed it or the lightning removed it.
And he's pretty much facing three opponents. Obi-wan is a non issue for Palpatine. If anyone dies first it's him.

Do you have a reference for your statement concerning Lucas? I have heard different so many times.

Originally posted by Lightsnake

And why is the notion that the guy who had the galaxy dancing to his tune for over a decade and has never shown himself unwilling to put his neck on the line be above trusting himself to Anakin? In the ROTS novel, Mace found Palpatine's shatterpoint: He trusted Anakin. Completely.

Sidious took a big chance with Anakin as he did with Luke in ROTJ. I believe that Palpatine's was powerful enough and did not really feel in danger, thus allowed himself to seem as if he was in a dying position in order to seduce Anakin. The only one he ever felt in danger of losing was obviously Yoda.

@ LS

Concentrate to power up? Powerful Jedi and Sith unleash power almost instantly and Palpatine's as powerful as they come.

Yes but in the previous argument you stated that stasis would require some concentration. If it was an attack that could be used instantly and at will theres no reason Sidious would not have used it against Vader. He was suprised yes, but that doesnt magically disable his powers.

In the force, Palpatine exceeds any of them. By far. And he's using an unfamiliar attack on their sabers.

Palpy isnt that far ahead of Yoda in the force, and not so far ahead of the others that he would defeat them with ease. Obi wan maybe, but killing Obi wan would be all that he would be to get off before the lightsaber combat was engaged. If he was focusing his power on keeping everyone at bay, than even Obi wan would be able to stand his ground for a little while. And I explained how the attack against their lightsabers would be questionable at best, in my previous post.

In a force fight, though, Palpatine is capable of staying ahead and unleashed a full storm of lightning to hold them at bay. This isn't even counting the abilities he knows that can render his opponents pretty ineffectual

See above. And Sids cant use stasis or something at the same time as his lightning attack. Its one or the other.

He does it early DE-audiobook elaborates on the numbers- and as we know from TOTJ, this is not an easy technique and takes some time to master....even for one droid at a time

Alright.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Ugh.

KotOR 3, why make this thread?

I guess we can't ask this question anymore, look at the responses.

Well, I guess the thread is not as ridiculous as it first sounded, eh?

By the way, I still think Sidious will die. But people make good arguments here.

IMO the fight goes like this. Palpy overwhelms Obi wan with the full blast of his lightning, and then gets drawn in the lightsaber duel with the trio and loses. Or, Sids uses his lightning to keep them all at bay, but it just delays his fate because the watered down lightning wont be enough to kill both Anakin and Obi Wan before Yoda breaks out of it and forces it into a lightsaber duel that Sids eventually loses.

I havent seen a more reasonable scenario from the opposition.

How is his 'watered down lightning' not going to be enough to kill Obi-wan and Anakin? Prolonged exposure will burn them to ash when it hits them and even if they survive, they'll be in no state to fight.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
[B]@ LS

Yes but in the previous argument you stated that stasis would require some concentration. If it was an attack that could be used instantly and at will theres no reason Sidious would not have used it against Vader. He was suprised yes, but that doesnt magically disable his powers.

Concentration isn't something Sith and Jedi struggle with. And again, the combatants will be ready for battle

Palpy isnt that far ahead of Yoda in the force, and not so far ahead of the others that he would defeat them with ease.

Obi wan maybe, but killing Obi wan would be all that he would be to get off before the lightsaber combat was engaged.

If he was focusing his power on keeping everyone at bay, than even Obi wan would be able to stand his ground for a little while.

And I explained how the attack against their lightsabers would be questionable at best, in my previous post.

See above. And Sids cant use stasis or something at the same time as his lightning attack. Its one or the other.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Dooku didnt use force crush against the duo. And again, Dooku lost.

Twice in their duel, Dooku put Obi-Wan on his ass with a flick of his wrist. The first time was momentarily, the second was for the duration of the duel. He picked him and smacked him into something, and Kenobi was done. Dropping the balcony on him was unnecessary.

At the same time, he kicked Anakin backwards and had him on the ground for several seconds. Now, in that time, immediately after tossing away Obi-Wan, he could've easily killed Skywalker. Lightning, telekinesis, that thing he did to Ventress, whatever. The Count's Sith lightning has knocked out Anakin instantly before, and he replicated the feat on Sora Bulq.

Now, Sidious as of DE is far faster than Dooku. He's stronger, he's tremendously more powerful and masterful. His arsenal of lethal or crippling techniques is vastly larger and more comprehensive than that of his former apprentice. If Dooku could do it Anakin and Obi-Wan, so can Sidious. And he can do it faster and better.

Its a gesture to start it, but the actual crushing will take time to carry out. And to do it to two opponents? Too much time.

Anakin does it to several Techno Union fools when he gets ticked off, and he does it instantly. Mace does it to General Grievous. Halcyon, as I've already told you, does it to the dark Jedi immediately. It's an instant attack.

Stop grasping for straws.

As Ive stated before, some lowly acolytes are in no way comparable to Anakin and Obi wan.

Now, DE Sidious, younger, faster, stronger, and more powerful than anyone who has ever lived before him, is going to do that to Anakin and Obi-Wan. And they are going to die. Yoda could barely hold back a weaker Palpatine's lightning. Mace couldn't hold back a weaker Palpatine's lightning.

Anakin and Obi-Wan are dead.

Enyalus post said that Palpy waved his hand and destroyed Leias saber, not lightning. That implies some kind of telekinesis.

And of course, you're forgetting that Sidious ripped a lightsaber out of Yoda's hands. You know, the most powerful Jedi in history.

He was engulfed in flames from the heat of it though. Surviving the deadly wound and then being burned alive is nothing to scoff at any way you look at it.

I pose the question again: What has Anakin done?

Anakin has had considerably more training in using the force as well. Do you think that they only teach lightsaber combat at the Jedi temple?

Your arguments are slipping, GV.

I want someone who is taking up DE Sids for the win here to address this. And please, don't say something like, "Well, thats your speculation."

Originally posted by Enyalus
I see Palpatine killing two members of the team, before being forced into a duel and losing. Obi-Wan and Anakin would be the most likely. If Sidious is good at making split second, in-combat decisions, he'll target Mace and Anakin though.

Mace's submersion in Vaapad doesn't take that long. He was holding his own against Palpatine from the outset. If he wasn't submerged in Vaapad for the first few moments of that duel, it only adds to his saber skills. I think if Sidious from the outset strikes at Mace with Lightning, he wouldn't be able to handle it and it would end up killing him. Ditto with Anakin.

However, Obi-Wan and Anakin would be easier to kill with the Force, and if he opts for that, then he's going to have to deal with Yoda and Mace in sabers and will be screwed.

Attempting to strike Yoda and Mace, or even Yoda, with the Force - is going to take a lot of power and most likely not even kill Yoda, so that would be a wasted effort. If he takes out Anakin and Mace (assuming he can take Mace before he uses Vaapad), that leaves Yoda and Obi-Wan to fend off in sabers - Obi-Wan would more than likely use Sorseu and be defensive, which would be DE Sidious' only chance to win this battle.

Any other attempt is going to end in failure. If he attempts to use Force Storm and hit all four members, it isn't going to be strong enough to kill anyone. Perhaps it incapacitates Anakin. Hardly going to disintegrate them, though. These are four of the best PT Jedi of their era. And have lightsabers to defend themselves and soak some or all of the damage.

Also keep in mind that in KOTOR3's original post he doesn't specify sabers, force, and all-out. So I'm assuming he only wants the all-out senario.

Two more things to consider: we don't know that Leia's lightsaber was made out of any kind of metal. Did you see how it looked? And its 10,000 years old ontop of it, so even if it was metal, it would have been worn out clearly.

Secondly, and most importantly, the idea that Palpatine can reduce any of these Jedi lightsabers to ash is absurd. Palpatine's own saber was made of phrik, which is lightsaber resistant and nearly unbreakable. We don't know that their weapons aren't made of the same. Furthermore, in Yoda and Sidious' ROTS duel, Yoda loses his balance, exposes the hilt of his lightsaber, and Palpatine hits it with a direct burst of his lightning. What happens? Nothing. It gets knocked out of his hand, falls hundreds of feet to the Senate floor, and is shown afterwards looking completely fine. Evidence that his lightning cannot simply disintegrate PT era Jedi lightsabers. Even if it could, they would never be stupid enough to expose the hilt of their weapons like Yoda did, because he was off balance.