Anakin vs DN Luke (Saber Battle)

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
First; against Palpatine, Anakin would be forced to go 'in teh zone' and 'crystal clear' in order to even stand a hope of outduelling Sidious; he wasn't able to focus while fighting against Obi-Wan, who is most decidedly inferior to both Sidious and Yoda. A simple taunt is all that's necessary to make Anakin go crazy, lose his concentration, and be killed by the infinitely more cunning, crafty, and intelligent Sidious.

I don't know how many times you have to be told that psychology of characters are not taken into account in vs. matches. And that wouldn't even be true. Dooku taunted Anakin. Look how that turned out. Furthermore, Anakin's only battle during ROTS was when he was 'in the zone'. The other fights? Vader. Who is stronger, faster, and better than in the zone Anakin. The one who was able to annihilate the Jedi Temple Battlemaster one-handed while using his free empty hand to kill his padawan. The one who first landed on Mustafar to destroy the Trade Federation and was so deeply immersed in the Dark Side that his eyes were red and yellow. That one.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Still, Yoda DESTROYED Dooku, as well. Dooku wasn't able to get in a position of advantage during the entire duel, and while Anakin was an enraged combatant, Yoda was calm, focused, and unwilling to kill or to harm Count Dooku. Yoda simply jumped circles all over him; Dooku, aware of the fact that he could not win, escaped. Even on Vjun, the regularly arrogant Dooku created the missle, knowing Yoda was simply too much for him.

Dooku was fast enough to parry all of his strikes and deal with Yoda's ridiculous leaping around.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Yeah. Not only that, but your A>B>C logical fails utterly EPICALLY, considering that Sidious and Yoda are faster, more physical, have better reflexes, are more agile, and have superior force reserves in comparison to Dooku; aside from brute strength and unyielding power, Anakin's got nuthin' on them.

I sense you're either ignoring what myself and others have been pointing out, or just not reading them. Dooku was able to compete with Yoda. Dooku was able to parry all of Yoda's attacks. And Anakin destroyed Dooku. That means that Anakin should be able to compete with Yoda in a saber match. Make him Vader, who is even stronger, faster, and more skilled - and he would be able to do more than simply "compete."

Also, Yoda and Sidious 'more physical' than Anakin? That wasn't serious, was it? Since you yourself said he had the advantage in 'brute strength.' Anakin's much more physically strong than either.

As for reflexes - you mean the Yoda who didn't react fast enough to put up a barrier to Sidious' lightning, and got knocked out? Or when he had the lightsaber blown out of his hand because he didn't react fast enough to parry?

And more agile? Yoda perhaps. Against Sidious? Um, no. You did see the twisting backflip Anakin uses to close a good 20 ft distance against Obi-Wan at the beginning of their battle, right?

'Superior force reserves'? Anakin's got the highest Force reserves in the PT era by far, bar none. Enough to make Sidious or Yoda's look like a joke.

I don't know how many times you have to be told that psychology of characters are not taken into account in vs. matches. And that wouldn't even be true. Dooku taunted Anakin. Look how that turned out.

pg. 76 RotS Novelization:
[...]This boy had the gift of fury.
And even now, he was holding himself back; even now, as he landed at Dooku's flank and rained blows upon the Sith Lord's defenses, even as he drove Dooku backward step after step, Dooku could feel how Skywalker kept his fury banked behind walls of will: walls that were hardened by some uncontrollable dread.
Dread, Dooku surmised, of himself. Of what might happen if he should ever allow that furnace he used for a heart to go supercritical.
Dooku slipped aside from an overhand chop and sprang backward. "I sense great fear in you. You are consumed by it. Hero With no fear, indeed. You're a fraud Skywalker. You are nothing but a posturing Child."
He pointed his lightsaber at the young Jedi like an accusing finger. "Aren't you a little old to be afraid of the dark?"
Skywalker leapt for him again, and this time Dooku met the boy's charge easily. The stood nearly to to toe, blades flashing faster than the eye could see, but Skywalker had lost his edge: a simple taunt was all that had been required to shift the focus of his attention from winning the fight to controlling his own emotions.

Dooku was fast enough to parry all of his strikes and deal with Yoda's ridiculous leaping around.

Originally posted by Enyalus

I don't know how many times you have to be told that psychology of characters are not taken into account in vs. matches. And that wouldn't even be true. Dooku taunted Anakin. Look how that turned out. Furthermore, Anakin's only battle during ROTS was when he was 'in the zone'. The other fights? Vader. Who is stronger, faster, and better than in the zone Anakin. The one who was able to annihilate the Jedi Temple Battlemaster one-handed while using his free empty hand to kill his padawan. The one who first landed on Mustafar to destroy the Trade Federation and was so deeply immersed in the Dark Side that his eyes were red and yellow. That one.

In-correcto. In his fight against Obi-Wan, Anakin was unfocused and full of rage- so much for him being teh uberz in terms of speed and skill, considering Obi-Wan kept up with him very nicely. The RotS novel even elaborates that in an unseen section of the duel, Obi-Wan disarmed and hesitated to kill Anakin. He could have, but didn't.

So, unless you think Obi-Wan can keep up with Yoda or Sidious, do you honestly think that Anakin even approaches the two in terms of speed and skill?

Oh, and against Dooku, Anakin never once outclassed him in terms of speed. Hell, even you conceded the point. Yoda vastly outclassed him and was rapidly overwhelming him. Anakin exhausted him, performed a feint, grabbed his hand, and cut off his saber hand. Point is, Anakin simply could not outclass Dooku in speed like Yoda did. Sidious is Yoda's equal in speed. Conclusion? Sidious and Yoda are both considerably faster than lil' Skywalker.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Dooku was fast enough to parry all of his strikes and deal with Yoda's ridiculous leaping around.

To barely block them. And that's different than his fight against Anakin... how?

Originally posted by Enyalus
I sense you're either ignoring what myself and others have been pointing out, or just not reading them. Dooku was able to compete with Yoda. Dooku was able to parry all of Yoda's attacks. And Anakin destroyed Dooku. That means that Anakin should be able to compete with Yoda in a saber match. Make him Vader, who is even stronger, faster, and more skilled - and he would be able to do more than simply "compete."

Anakin 'in teh zone' = able to outclass Dooku physically and in terms of stamina. God, he never came close to leaping around Dooku and overwhelming him with speed like Yoda did.

Anakin 'Vader' = Was defeated by Obi-Wan. After Obi-Wan kept up with him quite nicely.

Originally posted by Enyalus
lso, Yoda and Sidious 'more physical' than Anakin? That wasn't serious, was it? Since you yourself said he had the advantage in 'brute strength.' Anakin's much more physically strong than either.

As for reflexes - you mean the Yoda who didn't react fast enough to put up a barrier to Sidious' lightning, and got knocked out? Or when he had the lightsaber blown out of his hand because he didn't [b]react fast enough to parry?

And more agile? Yoda perhaps. Against Sidious? Um, no. You did see the twisting backflip Anakin uses to close a good 20 ft distance against Obi-Wan at the beginning of their battle, right?

'Superior force reserves'? Anakin's got the highest Force reserves in the PT era by far, bar none. Enough to make Sidious or Yoda's look like a joke.

All of my points are actually about Dooku, not Anakin. Sidious is more agile than Anakin, in any case; his duel with Mace proves it.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
In-correcto. In his fight against Obi-Wan, Anakin was unfocused and full of rage- so much for him being teh uberz in terms of speed and skill, considering Obi-Wan kept up with him very nicely. The RotS novel even elaborates that in an unseen section of the duel, Obi-Wan disarmed and hesitated to kill Anakin. He could have, but didn't.

So, unless you think Obi-Wan can keep up with Yoda or Sidious, do you honestly think that Anakin even approaches the two in terms of speed and skill?

So you're saying that Obi-Wan can keep up with and defeat Count Dooku because he did so to Vader? Clearly, that was a low showing due to Vader's mental condition at the time. Peak showing for Vader would be the Cin Drallig dismantling. And, again - according to the sourcebook, Vader's saber skills are a 9, on par with Yoda and Sidious.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Oh, and against Dooku, Anakin never once outclassed him in terms of speed. Hell, even you conceded the point. Yoda vastly outclassed him and was rapidly overwhelming him. Anakin exhausted him, performed a feint, grabbed his hand, and cut off his saber hand. Point is, Anakin simply could not outclass Dooku in speed like Yoda did. Sidious is Yoda's equal in speed. Conclusion? Sidious and Yoda are both considerably faster than lil' Skywalker.

Dooku could not properly angle his blade to simply deflect Anakin's. This was due to Anakin's power and speed. Not allowing Dooku to be in a proper position. I'll find the quote tonight, when I'm home. And no, Yoda did not rapidly overwhelm Dooku. 'Slowly, slowly.' So don't lie.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Anakin 'in teh zone' = able to outclass Dooku physically and in terms of stamina. God, he never came close to leaping around Dooku and overwhelming him with speed like Yoda did.

Anakin 'Vader' = Was defeated by Obi-Wan. After Obi-Wan kept up with him quite nicely.

Again, low showing. Vader is more skilled and better than ROTS Anakin. Also, since when does Anakin leap around, anyway? He uses Djem So, not Ataru, so he'd have no reason to.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Sidious is more agile than Anakin, in any case; his duel with Mace proves it.

No.

Originally posted by Enyalus

So you're saying that Obi-Wan can keep up with and defeat Count Dooku because he did so to Vader? Clearly, that was a low showing due to Vader's mental condition at the time. Peak showing for Vader would be the Cin Drallig dismantling. And, again - according to the sourcebook, Vader's saber skills are a 9, on par with Yoda and Sidious.

No. But Obi-Wan could certainly keep up with Dooku, even if he doesn't have a real hope of beating the Count in a lightsaber duel...

And, seriously, 'mental condition' may affect skill and percision, but speed and strength? Hardly. If anything, the dark side would heighten Anakin's physical attributes.

And yeah, I know Vader is a '9'. But that's not just skills, that's abilities with a saber, period. Force prowess included. Sorry, Anakin never demonstrated the speed necessary to deal with Yoda and Sidious; he never, ever duelled someone as fast as they are.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Dooku could not properly angle his blade to simply deflect Anakin's. This was due to Anakin's power and speed. Not allowing Dooku to be in a proper position. I'll find the quote tonight, when I'm home. And no, Yoda did not rapidly overwhelm Dooku. 'Slowly, slowly.' So don't lie.

Yeah. But Nick Gillard told me that Anakin is really a level 6. I'm a personal friend of his. Great guy.

And pff!! How dare you call me a liar, foo!

Seriously. Provide the quote and we can elaborate. 'Till you can, drop the point.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Again, low showing. Vader is more skilled and better than ROTS Anakin. Also, since when does Anakin leap around, anyway? He uses Djem So, not Ataru, so he'd have no reason to.

Anakin does have some rudimentary training in Ataru, if I'm not mistaken- the two blades form was based on that- but we can see how epically THAT failed. He's never fought with an extremely agile opponent, in any case; his defense is fairly limited, so there's no knowing how he'll deal with the fast, rapid, multi-angular and unpredictable bladework of Yoda and Sidious.

Honestly. Sidious is ONLY matched in 'natural' speed by Yoda. Mace was forced to rely on a different technique, and the people who didn't possess it- namely Kolar, Tiin, and Fisto- were quickly overwhelmed and struck down by Sidious' incredible speed. I'm not saying Anakin will just be speed-blitzed, but he's never displayed the ability to deal with someone of that levels of speed.

And Yoda vs. Dooku elaborated on Yoda jumping around, overwhelming, and confusing Dooku's bladework- speed advantages. Anakin vs. Dooku was about Dooku tiring out and being overwhelmed by Anakin's incredible strength and stamina. Nothin' bout speed.

Originally posted by Enyalus
No.

Yes.

He's never fought with an extremely agile opponent, in any case; his defense is fairly limited, so there's no knowing how he'll deal with the fast, rapid, multi-angular and unpredictable bladework of Yoda and Sidious.

Originally posted by Kotor3
Darth Power I am not sure of what you are referring to. I believe you have misunderstood my statement. My statement is one of observation. I was referring to the many quotes or posts that I have read from members within KMC, like you, who feel that Dooku can compete with Sidious, Yoda, and Mace in a saber battle.

You should note that I said if we are to take Lucas quote literally.

Not sure if this clarifies my statement for you.

Oh sorry about that.. Must have misread your quote.. I just get really frustrated when people take that quote out of context like so many people do on these boards.

Originally posted by Faunus
Ventress.

Oh, yeah.

She's not Sidious or Yoda, though. Not even close.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Merci, Monsieur Power.

So then, I stand by what I said. Anakin can compete, and defeat, Sidious in sabers. And the next time one of you attempts to use a half-assed GL quote against me claiming it to be canon and that's that, I'm going to get very angry. And you wouldn't like me when I'm angry. 😈

No problem. i learned long time ago on these boards not just to accept the quotes people give you here without checking it up yourself.

Originally posted by MC
Honestly. Sidious is ONLY matched in 'natural' speed by Yoda.

And have you never asked yourself why this is? Hmmm....because they're two of the strongest of anyone in the PT era in the Force, maybe? Which means greater Force Speed?

And...who, exactly has the highest potential and Force Reserves to call upon such Force Speed, especially as Vader?

And..."I'm more powerful than Palpatine now. I can overthrow him."
"I'm more powerful than any of you! [talking to the Jedi Council]"
"My powers have doubled since we last met."
And Mace Windu calling him the fastest and most powerful Jedi.

And this is before his power increases from turning to the Dark Side (except the first one). So 😛

Mace never calls him the fastest and most powerful Jedi. He's noted to be the strongest and fastest of his generation, and Mace believes that he is the most powerful Jedi alive (duh).

And really, don't take Anakin's statements about power at face value, ever.

Originally posted by Faunus
Mace never calls him the fastest and most powerful Jedi. He's noted to be the strongest and fastest of his generation, and Mace believes that he is the most powerful Jedi alive (duh).

And really, don't take Anakin's statements about power at face value, ever.

Thank you, I couldn't recall word for word what Mace said. However, he tells the council directly, "I'm more powerful than any of you," and they don't really correct him...

Originally posted by Faunus
Mace never calls him the fastest and most powerful Jedi. He's noted to be the strongest and fastest of his generation, and Mace believes that he is the most powerful Jedi alive (duh).

And really, don't take Anakin's statements about power at face value, ever.

The omniscient narrator also refers to him as "perhaps [the strongest and fastest] of any generation. Stop bitching, sir. Anakin's l33t amongst duelists.

"Perhaps," and since he's clearly not (Yoda, Sidious), moot "point."

Originally posted by Faunus
"Perhaps," and since he's clearly not (Yoda, Sidious), moot "point."

Like I said, pre-suited Vader...I see no reason why he couldn't beat either of them in a pure saber duel. Especially with the increased power.

Originally posted by Faunus
"Perhaps," and since he's clearly not (Yoda, Sidious), moot "point."

The quote is a sign that he can contend with just about anyone in pure speed and strength. No moot point.

Don't try and force your own interpretation upon the quote, Gideon, especially when the novel itself contradicts such an idea by having Anakin be dumbfounded by the speed and ferocity of the duel between Mace and Sidious, and has Obi-Wan - "strong enough to defeat the Emperor, you will never be" - in a position to kill a disarmed Anakin.

Originally posted by Faunus
Don't try and force your own interpretation upon the quote, Gideon, especially when the novel itself contradicts such an idea by having Anakin be dumbfounded by the speed and ferocity of the duel between Mace and Sidious, and has Obi-Wan - "strong enough to defeat the Emperor, you will never be" - in a position to kill a disarmed Anakin.

Did you get enough sleep today?

This is what I said: "The quote is a sign that he can contend with just about anyone in pure speed and strength. No moot point."

That he was impressed with Palpatine's speed (not Mace's) and that he was nearly killed by Obi-Wan aborts the idea that he can contend with just about anyone in pure speed and strength?

That's... um... pretty dumb.

there is obviously a lot more to a duel than strength and speed though... or else grievous would be the number one guy of all time, MORE THAN CAPABLE of beating sidious.

Would you pick grievous over sidoius in a saber's only battle? (one saber only, because we are relying merely on grievous's speed and strength to be too much for sidious) Or would you pick grievous over mace? or even grievous over obi-wan? Because Grievous was obviously stronger and faster than each of these duelists individually, but you throw in the force element, (to the extent that they can duel normally) which you HAVE to throw it in, if any Jedi EVER has a chance, and all of those fights involving grievous go back to the opponent.

So Anakin, even if he can "compete" against the top tier fighters in speed and strength, he still lacks the sword fighting ability to compete with the masters.
e.g. ("Don't try it! " you underestimate my power raaaaaaahhhh!!! *doom and destruction ensuing* "i hate you... blah blah blah)

If you can prove that anakin is as fast as mace, (which you can't, conclusively) and if you can prove that anakin is as strong as mace (which i don't think anyone is arguing with) then what have you proved? that Reggie Bush is as good as Ladanian Tomlinson? I think we all know the answer to that. There is a lot more to winning a fight than speed and power. (Leonidas killing the giant mutant dude comes to mind as i wrap this up)

I wasn't arguing that Skywalker was capable of defeating anyone here in a duel. But he's far better conditioned as a fighter than his son, possesses more prodigious strength, and vast reserves of Force energy as well. Obviously, though, he hasn't mastered the Force to nearly as great of an extent.