Anakin vs DN Luke (Saber Battle)

Originally posted by truejedi
if he did use shatterpoint... what difference does it make?he still did it, and he could do it again... and to argue that Mace used shatterpoint on grievous is the complete opposite of your post: He didn't tap grievous he crushed him. You don't crush something in shatterpoint. You tap something, that's made clear from many sources.

"Put simply: when I look at you through the Force I can see where you break"

Once he sees where you break it doesnt matter if he hits him with his hand or threw the Force.

im not downplaying the feat. Shatterpoint is an amazing ability. im saying you cant use that as proof that Mace is stronger than all the other jedis, (including Yoda and Sidious) because they cant do that.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon

And nothing refutes the Clone War's canonicity. Sorry, your observations, as intelligent as they are, don't overwrite canon. Don't you think I'd be happy to declare all post-RotJ Sith non-canonical because Anakin was supposed to bring balance to the force? Yeah, SW is full of inconsistencies. Deal with it.

The movies override every othe cannon source.

Dooku takes Obi1 out with a kick in the ROTS novel, but with a Force move in ROTS movie.

So which one overrides? the movie of course.

Look its fine if the events of CW cartoons are cannon. but you they were brought to us in very kiddish exaggerated cartoons suitable for cartoon netwrok.

So you can not COMPARE feats of one person in the cartoon to feats of someone ealse Outside the cartoon!! for GODS SAKES thats just common sense!!!

since we dnt see Dooku fight droids in the cartoon we simply can not compare. Otherwise CW cartoon Mace is 1000 times stronger that AOTC Mace!!! so mace is harder than mace!! you see you cant compare!!

Do you understand that simple logic yet???

Originally posted by truejedi
You know what's ridiculous? treating Mace's Vapaad like its a special ability. Saying "he can't block sidious's strokes until he had sank into vapaad" is the same as saying "Yoda was unable to block dooku's attacks until he had raised his saber"
Vapaad was his lightsaber FORM. It was how he fought with his LIGHTSABER. We have NO SOURCE that says its takes any certain time to sink into Vapaad. In fact, considered vapaad is a lightsaber FORM, the very first stroke of a the blade puts Mace "into vapaad"

Vapaad is a state of mind. It is a technique for Mace to use the darkness in his heart as a weapon of the light. Effectively, he can use the dark-side boost against non-dark Force users (and droids) without the danger of falling himself. Also, against dark side users (read: Palpatine) he can copy some of their speed or force attacks. and turn them against the originator. This is the superconducting loop phenomenon.

Originally posted by Jbill311
Vapaad is a state of mind. It is a technique for Mace to use the darkness in his heart as a weapon of the light. Effectively, he can use the dark-side boost against non-dark Force users (and droids) without the danger of falling himself. Also, against dark side users (read: Palpatine) he can copy some of their speed or force attacks. and turn them against the originator. This is the superconducting loop phenomenon.

i don't deny any of that: however, since it is still explicitly expressed as his lightsaber form, we shouldn't assume that it takes him any more time to fully use Vapaad then it takes yoda to use ataro. Anything else is just speculation.

As far as the blade work, you are correct. When the mental component comes into play, the situation changes. It takes him time to focus, and time to 'strip layers of his control' and let loose. The RotS novelization describes him being 'fully submerged in vapaad' only after quite some time of dueling.

perhaps, but we shouldn't believe that he can't compete with any opponent any less fully at the beginning of a duel as he can in the middle of the duel because of this. Just because he is letting loose, does that actually help his combat abilities? probably not: consider, before he was "cutting loose" he was fighting sidious one on one, and neither could defeat the other. After he was letting loose, he was fighting sidious one on one and neither could defeat the other. It was only when he used his shatterpoint ability that he was able to gain an edge in fighting.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Oh please.. he easily handled GG's barrage easily, while lecturing him throughout the fight, and easily disarming him. There was no contest there.

OMGW TEH CONTRADICTION!11!!!

LoE maintains that Dooku was often 'hard-pressed' to defeat Grievous in combat. While you're right that there appeared to be no significant effort on Dooku's part, it's very much plausible that Dooku, in fact, had more difficulty than appeared to be.

For example, when he fought Anakin in Attack of the Clones, there appeared to be no effort on his part- however, several sources maintain that he was surprised by Anakin's power and ferocity. Really, the fact that Dooku doesn't appear to be exerting himself doesn't necessarily mean that he isn't, especially when we consider what LoE says.

and of course GG went all out in his sparring sessions. the CW cartoon made that perfectly clear. hed try his best to defeat Dooku in the saber fight, but Dooku handled it easy. i mean he wasnt teaching kids boxing sparring u know.. he was teaching GG to KILL Jedis!! and still admitted GG culdnt beat the best of the Jedis, whilst Dooku himself believed hed have a shot at any Jedi.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I mean does anyone here actually believe GG would even have a chacne against Dooku in a Saber fight???

I would make a case for Grievous having a chance in a saber battle against Dooku if there wasn't textual evidence to suggest that Grievous never beat Dooku in a sparring match. As it stands, no, I don't think Grievous could beat Dooku in a lightsaber duel.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
If you want to beleive that GG always went easy on Dooku, then you believe that, but its COMPLETE speculation on your part.

Correct. However, we know that Grievous respected and admired Count Dooku, and wouldn't have any reason to go all "20 strikes per second" on Dooku's ass. He doesn't want to kill him, so I think it's more than plausible that he never fought to his peak against Dooku.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
"Imagine a Corusca gem: a mineral whose interlocking crystalline structure makes it HARDER THAN DURASTEEL. You can strile one with a five-kilo hammer and do no more than dent the hammer's face. Yet the same crystalline structure that gives the Corusca strength also give it shatterpoints: spots where a precise application of carefully measured force-NO MORE THAN A GENTLE TAP- WILL BREAK IT INTO PIECES. But to find these shatterpoints, to use them to shape the Corusca gem into beauty and utility, requires years of study, an intimate understanding of the crystal structure, and rigorous practice to train the hand in the perfect combination of strength and precision to produce the desired cut.

UNLESS YOU HAVE A TALENT LIKE MINE.
I CAN SEE SHATTERPOINTS..............
...........

Put Simply: WHEN I LOOK AT YOU THROUGH THE FORCE, I CAN SEE WHERE YOU BREAK"

So when Mace looked at Greivous he could see where he breaks. and Force crushed him there.

when he sees the droids hes fighting, again he can see where they break, and all it takes is a gentle tap to break them.

If thats not proof that Mace punches through Durasteel using his Shatterpoint ability(something that weve never even witnessed Yoda or Sidious doing) then I dnt know what is!

Otherwise if you just want to believe that Mace does that by his own Raw Force Power, and therfore Mace has more Raw Strength in the Force than weve seen ever shown by even Yoda or Sidious, then fine you believe that. but AGAIN its complete speculation on you part.

Err... no, both Yoda and Sidious have raw power feats that trump Mace's. All the way from Yoda manipulating those ships in the CW Cartoon, to Mace admitting his inferiority in Shatterpoint, to Sidious overwhelming and overpowering him with lightning, to Sidious wielding those Senate Pods with immense speed and percision. With one hand.

Okay. Let's say some guy learned a killing technique. Then, let's say he fought another guy and killed him. Now, nothing in either the visualization of that fight or the description of it suggests the killer used that certain technique he had, although he possesses mastery of it- are we forced to assume that he used that technique to kill him?

The answer is no. If Mace used his Shatterpoint ability, there would have been some sort of indication of it in either the visual evidence or the text- there ISN'T, so drop the point already. You're the one speculating- simply because Mace has the Shatterpoint ability doesn't mean that he uses it in every single one of his feats. If he used it, there would be something to suggest that he did.

As for the CW Cartoon point, you are, once again, holding the belief that you > GL. SW is full of stupid inconsistencies- Anakin was supposed to bring balance to the force, but instead Sidious comes back by DE and the Sith reemerge in the form of Lumiya and Caedus. So, can I just declare NJO and LotF non-canon? No, I can't. You can't do that to the cartoon, either, because no one has ever retconned it or implied that it wasn't canon.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
LoE maintains that Dooku was often 'hard-pressed' to defeat Grievous in combat. While you're right that there appeared to be no significant effort on Dooku's part, it's very much plausible that Dooku, in fact, had more difficulty than appeared to be.

Speculation, and no proof. GG was using 2 sabers in that match. so when Dooku said he was "AT TIMES" hard pressed to fend him off we can safely assume that was GG going all out.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
For example, when he fought Anakin in Attack of the Clones, there appeared to be no effort on his part- however, several sources maintain that he was surprised by Anakin's power and ferocity.

Yeah i dnt remember Dooku lecturing Anakin and constantly disarming him and tossing him around in their duel. it was quite obviuos Dooku was fully concentrating in that fight.

And it doesnt matter if GG respected Dooku. If he was clearly no match for Dooku then of course he could go all out on him. If he culdnt go all out on him, then hed need to find a new sparring partner. Clearly youve never sparred yourself. If you had ud know you never hold back on your teacher, no matter how much you like him. because you knowyour not gna beat him, and if you do... Then Great! Youll be filled with confidence!

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
As it stands, no, I don't think Grievous could beat Dooku in a lightsaber duel..

Then you admit Dooku is fast enough to handle GG's 20 strikes per second. Therfore case closed, and pointless argument.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Err... no, both Yoda and Sidious have raw power feats that trump Mace's. All the way from Yoda manipulating those ships in the CW Cartoon,..

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
to Mace admitting his inferiority in Shatterpoint,,..

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
to Sidious overwhelming and overpowering him with lightning,,,..

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
to Sidious wielding those Senate Pods with immense speed and percision. With one hand.,,,..

Thats nothing compared to Mace's CW cartoon feats. so by your argument, Mace has better Force feats than Sidious upto (before Dark Empire).

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
The answer is no. If Mace used his Shatterpoint ability, there would have been some sort of indication of it in either the visual evidence or the text- there ISN'T, so drop the point already. You're the one speculating- simply because Mace has the Shatterpoint ability doesn't mean that he uses it in every single one of his feats. If he used it, there would be something to suggest that he did..,,,..

Im not sure.. so ill let you have this one.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
As for the CW Cartoon point, you are, once again, holding the belief that you > GL........

You can't do that to the cartoon, either, because no one has ever retconned it or implied that it wasn't canon.

I never once sed CW was not cannon. I sed the powers were Greatly Amped up in that. therfore it is not fair to compare one characters feats from CW cartoons to another characters feats from Outside of CW cartoons, otherwise as I have already pointed out Mace's Force feats seem Much Much greater than ROTS Sidious's!!!!!

Or are you denying those feats to be AMPED Up.... and im not contradicting Lucas, as Lucas himself said that was his "Ideal Vision of Jeids" therfore they were Amped up in the cartoon to fit his "Ideal Vision". and therfore in most other parts of the SWU including the movies his "ideal vision" is not portrayed, therefore simple logic dictates you can not compare feats from within CW cartoons to feats Outside them! theres no denying that.
its not rocket science you know, but your just clinging on to him because thats the only place youll see Mace's Force feats greater than Dookus, because we only saw Dooku sparring GG and Ventress in those cartoons!!

And by the way theyre not that amped up in the new animation.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Speculation, and no proof. GG was using 2 sabers in that match. so when Dooku said he was "AT TIMES" hard pressed to fend him off we can safely assume that was GG going all out.

No, at 'times' could suggest that Grievous occasionally performed better. It's plausible, you know.

And besides, by LoE, I'm fairly certain that Dooku made a quote about his dislike of Grievous using four lightsabers. I'm sure Dooku would encourage him to fight with the more... well... 'graceful' style of using two lightsabers.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yeah i dnt remember Dooku lecturing Anakin and constantly disarming him and tossing him around in their duel. it was quite obviuos Dooku was fully concentrating in that fight.

No, it wasn't. It's all very much open to speculation, as we hadn't seen Dooku sweat and shout during the fight, like he did against Yoda.

And besides, you're not thinking of saying AotC Anakin is even close to Grievous, are you?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And it doesnt matter if GG respected Dooku. If he was clearly no match for Dooku then of course he could go all out on him. If he culdnt go all out on him, then hed need to find a new sparring partner. Clearly youve never sparred yourself. If you had ud know you never hold back on your teacher, no matter how much you like him. because you knowyour not gna beat him, and if you do... Then Great! Youll be filled with confidence!

RIGHT, I've never sparred before. Don't insult me. You don't go absolutely all-out on someone you don't want to hurt, even if it's subconsciously- I really, really have my doubts Grievous went all '20 strikes per second' on Dooku's ass during the sparring matches.

Do I have proof? No, I don't have proof, but neither do you.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Then you admit Dooku is fast enough to handle GG's 20 strikes per second. Therfore case closed, and pointless argument.

I'm sure Dooku would beat Grievous in a fight, but not only due to his saber combat abilities. Force counts, too. Even in the sparring match, he utilized the force to stop Grievous' assault- you don't do that if you're absolutely confident that your skill > your opponent's skill, considering Dooku preferred usage of pure saber combat in comparison to force abilities.

And besides, I'm sure Grievous is faster than Dooku- he can certainly produce more attacks. However, the same applies for Obi-Wan- it is directly said in the novelization that Grievous could move his arms faster than Obi-Wan could, but yet Obi-Wan beat him. Conclusion? Speed doesn't necessarily equal victory. But it helps.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
yes too bad we didnt get to see Dooku take on ships and multiple opponents in the CW cartoon, because that would have finished your argument there and then.

Good for me.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
nice to see you accept that quote, but have trouble accepting the narrator of Dark Rendezvous clearly stating Dookus blade work being equal to Mace's in Speed and Lethalness??? Or the quote on Anakin possibly being the fastest Jedi there is??? your just picking and chosing the quotes you want to believe.

Dooku may have been Mace's equal, but, for god's sake, he is never said to be as fast as Mace. Or as strong as Mace. In those last two categories, Mace curbstomps Dooku. Dooku has other advantages- like percision, accuracy, grace, and dueling experience/technical skill. That quote doesn't refute my argument- you don't have to be as fast as someone in order to beat them.

And 'possibly' is 'possibly'. I accept that quote, but hey, we have two Jedi who have him beaten in speed displays- possibly implies doubt, and those two Jedi can cause that doubt.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
and Dooku EASILY overwhelmed Ventress and Sora Bulq using the Force, something Mace COULD NOT DO when fighting them, otherwise neither one would have escaped him!

I am not arguing that Mace > Dooku in the force. Just that Mace > Dokou in the sheer power of his force feats. Dooku would certainly win in a force battle, because of his finesse and experience- Mace's feats, however, are simply more powerful.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Thats nothing compared to Mace's CW cartoon feats. so by your argument, Mace has better Force feats than Sidious upto (before Dark Empire).

Incorrect- Mace's 'force feats' mainly involve owning a ton of droids with a force wave. He never displayed the power to lift so many heavy objects, and wield them with such accuracy and speed.

However, it's very much true that Sidious' TK isn't his best force power. His lightning is- and that lightning was more than a match for Mace.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I never once sed CW was not cannon. I sed the powers were Greatly Amped up in that. therfore it is not fair to compare one characters feats from CW cartoons to another characters feats from Outside of CW cartoons, otherwise as I have already pointed out Mace's Force feats seem Much Much greater than ROTS Sidious's!!!!!

Or are you denying those feats to be AMPED Up.... and im not contradicting Lucas, as Lucas himself said that was his "Ideal Vision of Jeids" therfore they were Amped up in the cartoon to fit his "Ideal Vision". and therfore in most other parts of the SWU including the movies his "ideal vision" is not portrayed, therefore simple logic dictates you can not compare feats from within CW cartoons to feats Outside them! theres no denying that.
its not rocket science you know, but your just clinging on to him because thats the only place youll see Mace's Force feats greater than Dookus, because we only saw Dooku sparring GG and Ventress in those cartoons!!

Yeah, they're 'amped up', but are still useable in debates, simply because the Cartoon- and, in turn, anything that happens in it- is canonical. Nothing retconned that, nor did anybody say the feats displayed there aren't canon.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And by the way theyre not that amped up in the new animation.

Good, but I'm not sure the movie is indication for everything in the series.

By the way Anakin has some pretty amazing Force feats in the CW cartoons as well, but theyre usually missed because his scenes you jus see for a second, while Mace had a whole episode dedicated to his Force feats.

In the first episode at the beginning they show a scene where Padawan Anakin is surrounded by battle driods, but drpos them all by simply lifting his hands.

Also in Volume 2 after being Knighted they show Anakin throwing a massive object at a huge driod to smash them, as well as freeing his comrades from some kind of wierd bubbles they were trapped him, by just using the Force.

So I personally feel Lightside Anakin as being a match for Mace in Sabers and the Force. Certainly a very powerful opponent not to be underestimated unless you want to end up like Dooku.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon

RIGHT, I've never sparred before. Don't insult me. You don't go absolutely all-out on someone you don't want to hurt, even if it's subconsciously- I really, really have my doubts Grievous went all '20 strikes per second' on Dooku's ass during the sparring matches.

Do I have proof? No, I don't have proof, but neither do you.

When u have 1 on 1 sessions with an instructor thats always the best sparring training. and its always your instructor holding back and controlling the fight, which is EXACTLY what they showed with Dooku vs. Greivous. So im afraid your the one wholl have to prove GG never went pretty much all out in his sparring sessions because he Lol"Luved Dooku 2 much"!!!

Even with 2 sabers GG's speed is still blindingly fast.. and Dooku can handle with it. Theres nothing anywhere to say he cant.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Dooku may have been Mace's equal, but, for god's sake, he is never said to be as fast as Mace. Or as strong as Mace. In those last two categories, Mace curbstomps Dooku. Dooku has other advantages- like percision, accuracy, grace, and dueling experience/technical skill. That quote doesn't refute my argument- you don't have to be as fast as someone in order to beat them.
And 'possibly' is 'possibly'. I accept that quote, but hey, we have two Jedi who have him beaten in speed displays- possibly implies doubt, and those two Jedi can cause that doubt..

Iv just reread the ROTS novels version of the fight between Anakin, Dooku and Obiwan, and im afraid all 3 of them displayed "Blinding Speed", especially Anakin and Dooku. You obviously completely blocked that out of your mind when you read the novel. Theres now absolutley no evidence whatsoever that Mace is faster than Dooku or Anakin. Theres no point in just sticking to that made up theory of yours just because you prefer Mace.
and btw even in strength, Dooku has displayed tremendous Force enhanced strength(kicking the chosen one half way accross the room right onto his butt)..so until his Force Reserves tire theres no reason to suggest Mace will even be srtonger than Dooku.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
I am not arguing that Mace > Dooku in the force. Just that Mace > Dokou in the sheer power of his force feats.

Yeah jus becuase we saw more of him in the CW cartoons. whether u like it or not ALL the Jedis were more powerful there. Deal with it. Otherwise Maces Force feats are more powerful than Sidious's as well. because yes Taking down an entire driod army single handedly is more impressive than throwin senate pods! Lol!

Weren't we done with this?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
When u have 1 on 1 sessions with an instructor thats always the best sparring training. and its always your instructor holding back and controlling the fight, which is EXACTLY what they showed with Dooku vs. Greivous. So im afraid your the one wholl have to prove GG never went pretty much all out in his sparring sessions because he Lol"Luved Dooku 2 much"!!!

When you fight against someone you have no intention of killing, you, at least subconsciously, hold back. That's the sad truth. Of course it applies to Dooku, as well, but these sparring matches don't necessarily completely reflect a real-world confrontation.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Even with 2 sabers GG's speed is still blindingly fast.. and Dooku can handle with it. Theres nothing anywhere to say he cant.

OF COURSE he can. I couldn't possibly argue agains that- but the truth is that Grievous would be a very devastating foe, even against Dooku, when he rocks his four lightsabers to his fullest extent.

Only the fact that Grievous apparently never beat Dooku in a sparring match will prevent me from making an argument as to why I believe Grievous can contend with- and possibly defeat- the Count in lightsaber combat.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Ivejust reread the ROTS novels version of the fight between Anakin, Dooku and Obiwan, and im afraid all 3 of them displayed "Blinding Speed", especially Anakin and Dooku. You obviously completely blocked that out of your mind when you read the novel. Theres now absolutley no evidence whatsoever that Mace is faster than Dooku or Anakin. Theres no point in just sticking to that made up theory of yours just because you prefer Mace.

I PREFER MACE? Don't bullshit me, and don't make any vague 'lol you're a fanboy!' insult attempt. I don't even like Mace that much. I like Dooku a lot more than him, for example, but I simply don't believe that Dooku can match him in physical attributes.

And provide quotes, and then substantiate as to why they rival Mace's 'invisble' speed and capability of appearing to wield multiple blades at once.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
and btw even in strength, Dooku has displayed tremendous Force enhanced strength(kicking the chosen one half way accross the room right onto his butt)..so until his Force Reserves tire theres no reason to suggest Mace will even be srtonger than Dooku.

Ripping durasteel apart with bare hands > force kicking someone.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yeah jus becuase we saw more of him in the CW cartoons. whether u like it or not ALL the Jedis were more powerful there. Deal with it. Otherwise Maces Force feats are more powerful than Sidious's as well. because yes Taking down an entire driod army single handedly is more impressive than throwin senate pods! Lol!

Yeah, and Sidious overpowered Mace in a force contest. He also launched world-class force techniques and rituals- and while his TK may not seem to be 'the uberz!11!!', he was able to wield three heavy objects with more speed and percision than Mace ever displayed.

I'm a purple belt in Tae Kwon Do, and for the record, I never attacked my instructor to the best of my ability. Not that it would have made a difference, since he's a fifth degree black belt and was trained since adolescence, but I know for a fact that most of us in our class never tried to attack him to the best of our ability.

Damn straight. During sparring matches, you simply don't go all-out against someone you don't want to cause serious harm to.

There were a lot of moments, though, when I did against my fellow classmates. Mostly because a lot of them were pricks. There was this fat one, Julia. Just a monstrosity. She sucked at sparring, but admittedly, she was amazing on technique. Knew all the stances, vocabulary, correct poses. When we'd spar, there were moments when I intentionally kicked the shit out of her ribs. And I enjoyed every minute of it.

That's downright evil, brotha. 😐

Most fat chicks in my karate class happened to back down before they were 'seriously' into it. I remember, one time, I fought this guy who kind of pissed me off, mainly 'cuz he was an arrogant douche. So I beat him 'till he dropped on the floor. I lost points for that, though. I'm lucky, 'cause most people in my class are cool, though. There's only one guy I never beat, and he's damn tough.

I'm kind of crappy in technique. I'm much more of a 'practical' martial artist than an actual 'artist', lol.

EDIT

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Weren't we done with this?

we were until i found all these quotes about Kenobi, Dookus and Anakins Blinding speed, which kind of makes your whole apparent "proof" that Mace is faster just speculation. you dnt have to look any further than their fight in the ROTS novel.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
When you fight against someone you have no intention of killing, you, at least subconsciously, hold back. That's the sad truth. Of course it applies to Dooku, as well, but these sparring matches don't necessarily completely reflect a real-world confrontation.

yeah except amateur sparring is a bit different to training someone to be a killer! natrually in that situation your instructor has to be harsher, and sparring much more intense. and like youve already pointed out, Dooku would have subconciously held back just as much as GG, as he wuldnt have trained him all that time just to accidentally kill him.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
I PREFER MACE? Don't bullshit me, and don't make any vague 'lol you're a fanboy!' insult attempt. I don't even like Mace that much. I like Dooku a lot more than him, for example, but I simply don't believe that Dooku can match him in physical attributes......And provide quotes, and then substantiate as to why they rival Mace's 'invisble' speed and capability of appearing to wield multiple blades at once.

calm down. no ones insulting u. dnt be so insecure man! ill give u all the quotes now, its just that the fact u dnt have to look further than the ROTS novel for the proof shows u just jumped to that conclusion that Mace is clearly faster than Dooku or Anakin. and by the way you Never once gave an Actual quote of Maces speed, so u were very Vague in your proof. Neway....

ROTS novel pg.72 Kenobis speed " 'Very well, then,' the jedi said, and shot up straight upward over Dooku's head so fast it seemed hed vanished."

moving so fast that it looked like he vanished = invisible speed.

ROTS novelpg.75
Kenobis speed: "he finally registered the source of that BLINDING defence velocity Kenobi had used a moment ago.."

yes thats right Kenobi with BLINDING speed, so Mace clearly isnt the only one.

ROTS novel pg.76
Anakins speed: "That blue blade was everywhere, falshing and whirling faster and faster until Dooku saw the room through an electric haze.."

this is easily equal to Mace appearing to wield mutiple blades at once as Anakins blade appeared to be everywhere.

ROTS novel pg.77
Dookus speed: "Before their pieces could even hit the floor Dooku was in motion, landing a spinning side stamp that folded skywalker in half; he used his last burst of dark power to continue his spin into a BLINDINGLY FAST wheel kick that brought his heel agaisnt Kenobis chin..."

and there we go.. Dooku is also blindingly fast!

ROTS novel pg.79
Anakin and Dooku's speed: "They stood toe- to- toe, blades flashing faster than the eye could see.

Both Dooku AND Anakin display Invisible/Blinding speed, with their blades appearing to be everywhere.

So there u have it! Iv given more proof theyre than uv given in 6 pages on Maces speed. and they all(including Obi1) display it in their balde work and in their general physical speed.

So clearly having blinding type speed is normal when u get to the top-tier jedis.

So in future when U want to make up specualtion like "Mace is the only one whose ever displayed blinding speed" try doing your research first, especially if your going to try and impose that view on other people.

Seriously iv learned you cant believe anything you here from people on these boards. You have to go check out the proofs yourself. and you Master Crimzon have finally confirmed how unreliable speculation is all you get form these boards. Thanks for that 🙂

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
yeah except amateur sparring is a bit different to training someone to be a killer! natrually in that situation your instructor has to be harsher, and sparring much more intense. and like youve already pointed out, Dooku would have subconciously held back just as much as GG, as he wuldnt have trained him all that time just to accidentally kill him.

In order to increase somebody's technical skill to its utmost extent, you cannot fight as you would in a real-life situation- the intensity of 'real', and not simulated combat, can prevent gaining a better mastery and understanding of the blade.

All I'm saying is that Dooku's and Grievous' sparring matches do not entirely reflect a real-life situation. I'm sure Dooku would beat him, though- if not via sabers, than via the force.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
calm down. no ones insulting u.

Don't make unsupported claims like 'You like Mace more!!!' without knowing my opinions, please. I'm not really that offended.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
dnt be so insecure man!/[QUOTE]

[Emo Music]I feel sooooo inseccurree... oh god... life's a *****... I want to dieeeeee[/Emo Music]

What. 😮

[QUOTE=11144941]Originally posted by DARTH POWER
ill give u all the quotes now, its just that the fact u dnt have to look further than the ROTS novel for the proof shows u just jumped to that conclusion that Mace is clearly faster than Dooku or Anakin. and by the way you Never once gave an Actual quote of Maces speed, so u were very Vague in your proof. Neway....

O-kay.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
ROTS novel pg.72 Kenobis speed " 'Very well, then,' the jedi said, and shot up straight upward over Dooku's head so fast it seemed hed vanished."

Highly impressive, but appearing invisible for a split second < raping an army of droids unarmed and appearing 'invisible' next to the absolutely beastly Kar Vastor.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
ROTS novelpg.75
Kenobis speed: "he finally registered the source of that BLINDING defence velocity Kenobi had used a moment ago.."

Yes. Kenobi's bladework is certainly fast, but how is that any different from Mace's? He is capable of moving his blades so quickly there are appear to be multiple ones. Which is very, very impressive.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
yes thats right Kenobi with BLINDING speed, so Mace clearly isnt the only one.

Did I even suggest as much? Yoda and Sidious are most decidedly faster than him during the PT. Other than them, though, I'm not so certain.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
ROTS novel pg.76
Anakins speed: "That blue blade was everywhere, falshing and whirling faster and faster until Dooku saw the room through an electric haze.."

this is easily equal to Mace appearing to wield mutiple blades at once as Anakins blade appeared to be everywhere.

Nice quote. But the fact is, Anakin had never displayed the movement speed- 'invisible' and sufficient to destroy an army of droids while appearing as a blur and dodging incredibly fast blaster-fire- or the other varieties of Mace's speed, such as registering six blows on Kar Vastor before he could blink.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
ROTS novel pg.77
Dookus speed: "Before their pieces could even hit the floor Dooku was in motion, landing a spinning side stamp that folded skywalker in half; he used his last burst of dark power to continue his spin into a BLINDINGLY FAST wheel kick that brought his heel agaisnt Kenobis chin..."

Great. Still does not compare to the feats I've listed.

and there we go.. Dooku is also blindingly fast!

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
ROTS novel pg.79
Anakin and Dooku's speed: "They stood toe- to- toe, blades flashing faster than the eye could see.

Both Dooku AND Anakin display Invisible/Blinding speed, with their blades appearing to be everywhere.

There's hardly rare, you know- there is rarely a duel in which the blades aren't noted for appearing faster than the eye could view.

In addition, while that's enough for me to concede that they can contend with Mace in terms of speed, I'd still say that they are slower. From massacring that droid army, to being far faster than Kar Vastor (appearing truly 'invisible', and the six blows before Vastor could blink), to moving his blade with enough speed for it to appear like multiple blades, I'd say that he is faster than them.

In addition, he was capable of forcing Grievous on the defensive- something that Dooku, apparently, did not do during their sparring matches, even though Grievous wielded two lightsabers in both confrontations.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
So there u have it! Iv given more proof theyre than uv given in 6 pages on Maces speed. and they all(including Obi1) display it in their balde work and in their general physical speed.

Uhh? Somehow, some impressive descriptions of speed > moving 'invisible' compared to Vastor, decimating a droid army using pure speeds and hand to hand combat, landing six blows on Vastor before he could blink, and moving a blade with enough speed to make it appear like it was multiple blades? Sorry. Dooku, Anakin, and Obi-Wan never displayed these sorts of speed.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
So clearly having blinding type speed is normal when u get to the top-tier jedis.

Clearly. Mace is very upper-tier in speed, though.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
So in future when U want to make up specualtion like "Mace is the only one whose ever displayed blinding speed" try doing your research first, especially if your going to try and impose that view on other people.

Did I ever actually say that? He's displayed speed in excess of the three above mentioned combatants- the only one who may truly be able to rival him in that department is Anakin. He's far from the fastest force user in the mythos, though.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Seriously iv learned you cant believe anything you here from people on these boards. You have to go check out the proofs yourself. and you Master Crimzon have finally confirmed how unreliable speculation is all you get form these boards. Thanks for that 🙂

Umm, no problem? That was a bit vague. Was that some sort of insult, or something?