Originally posted by Gideon
I wasn't arguing that Skywalker was capable of defeating anyone here in a duel. But he's far better conditioned as a fighter than his son, possesses more prodigious strength, and vast reserves of Force energy as well. Obviously, though, he hasn't mastered the Force to nearly as great of an extent.
yeah, i'd definitly agree with that.
Originally posted by Gideon
I wasn't arguing that Skywalker was capable of defeating anyone here in a duel. But he's far better conditioned as a fighter than his son, possesses more prodigious strength, and vast reserves of Force energy as well. Obviously, though, he hasn't mastered the Force to nearly as great of an extent.
I like agreeing with you. I should do so more often. It gives me a fuzzy warm feeling.
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Anakin = Dark Side. Vaapad = Works well against dark siders. Conclusion?
well it depends of course if we are talking about Jedi Anakin or Sith Anakin. cause Vapaad wuldnt do anything against Jedi Anakin.
Even agaisnt Sith Anakin Vapaad wuld put Mace in Anakin's league, in terms of Strength and Speed, which wuld certainly give Mace the advantage.. but then it wuld be like the Mace vs. Sidious fight where they were both equal. so I still think it wuld be a bit of a stretch to say Dark Side Anakin wuld not even have a hope of defeating Mace.
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Plus, Mace is a lot physically stronger, more durable, and faster than Dooku- Anakin will not be able to beat him into submission, or exhaust him. Certainly not as he did to Dooku.
Physical strength doesnt mean squat next to Strength in the Force. Dooku has tremendous strength in the Force which is how he was able to kick ROTS Anakin far away landing on his rear. Yoda describes Dooku in Dark Rendevouz as "Most Learned in the ways of the Force", and that was Dooku as a Jedi. ROTS tells us that Dooku was one of the "MOst Powerful Jedis in its 25000 year history, and an Even More Powerful Sith!"
The AOTC novel describes the way Dooku fights Yoda as "Letting the Force flow through him as if his physical form was a mere conduit for its Power." Dark Rendezvous says something similar as well. and the ROTS novel describes how Dooku constantly replenishes his strength through the Force. All this of course was next to useless against Anakin who has near limitless Force Reserves.
I mean seriously Yoda and Sidious are "Physically" very weak, probably much weaker than Dooku. So What??
As for Mace being Faster than Dooku??? dnt knw where you got that from considering Dooku had the Speed to compete against Yoda whereas Mace did not have the speed to compete against Sidious before his Superconducting loop came into play.
Hers what it says in Dark Rendezvous "The Counts blade was as quick as a viper striking. Among the other jedi perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground:"
That doesnt sound like Mace is Faster to me. In fact it sounds like at best Mace could hope to be as fast as Dooku.
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
And Anakin aimed to kill Dooku; he was going all-out, Yoda wasn't. Both outclassed Dooku, and, actually, when Yoda wanted to, he simply jumped and leapt all over Dooku, easily dodging or blocking Dooku's attacks.
Actually according to Rots novel Anakin decided to win.. not kill. and we all know Anakin was in 2 minds about killing Dooku from that scene in the movie.
This is proof that just because your not aiming to kill, doesnt mean you have to hold back to win. Theres still nothing stopping Yoda chopping Dookus limbs off, or at least his hands. Or simply just cut him the way Dooku cut Obi-1.
as for Yoda simply outclassing Yoda, lets not forget Dooku still managed to parry off all his attacks. On Yodas first Lightsbaer Attack of Dooku when his lightsaber outshone both of Anakins at the peak of his dance, the AOTC novel says "Dooku held strong, though, his red blade parrying brilliantly,"
Though Yodas second and third attack were Forcing Dooku back.. his third attack even putting Dooku of balance for the First Time, yet Dooku still parryed the attacks.
Then the fight ended with Yoda and Dooku locked "in a contest of strength, physical and of the Force.." where Yoda was forcing Dooku back "Just a Little.." while congratulating him on how well hes fought.
Then after Dooku escapes Anakin and Obi1 walk over to the "Exhausted Yoda." So clealry though Dooku could Never have Actually Won, he clearly does have the speed and strength to Compete against the likes of Yoda/Sidious even exhausting them in fighting him.
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
And yeah, I know Vader is a '9'. But that's not just skills, that's abilities with a saber, period. Force prowess included. Sorry, Anakin never demonstrated the speed necessary to deal with Yoda and Sidious; he never, ever duelled someone as fast as they are.
Your not making any sense. if Anakin didnt have the necessary speed to contend with Yoda or Sidious then he wuldnt be a Level 9 right up there with them.
Your trying very hard to prove hes not in their league in a saber fight when its already been said by Nick Gillard that he is. Seriously your argument is pointless.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
well it depends of course if we are talking about Jedi Anakin or Sith Anakin. cause Vapaad wuldnt do anything against Jedi Anakin.
When Anakin goes 'in teh zone', I'm fairly certain he uses the dark side; besides, he's never displayed the speeds Mace was capable of displaying. I'll substantiate on that later.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Even agaisnt Sith Anakin Vapaad wuld put Mace in Anakin's league, in terms of Strength and Speed, which wuld certainly give Mace the advantage.. but then it wuld be like the Mace vs. Sidious fight where they were both equal. so I still think it wuld be a bit of a stretch to say Dark Side Anakin wuld not even have a hope of defeating Mace.
It's not like the fight with Sidious, where Sidious outclassed Mace in terms of speed; Anakin is slower than Mace, even in Mace's 'regular' form. Anakin's advantages of force power, energy, and strength will be easily negated; and Anakin's not exhausting Mace, which is a big reason as to why he was capable of beating Dooku, because Mace is a built, physically fit Jedi, capable of breaking through durasteel with his bare hands.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Physical strength doesnt mean squat next to Strength in the Force. Dooku has tremendous strength in the Force which is how he was able to kick ROTS Anakin far away landing on his rear. Yoda describes Dooku in Dark Rendevouz as "Most Learned in the ways of the Force", and that was Dooku as a Jedi. ROTS tells us that Dooku was one of the "MOst Powerful Jedis in its 25000 year history, and an Even More Powerful Sith!"
And your point is...? I've always argued for Dooku's proficiency.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
The AOTC novel describes the way Dooku fights Yoda as "Letting the Force flow through him as if his physical form was a mere conduit for its Power." Dark Rendezvous says something similar as well. and the ROTS novel describes how Dooku constantly replenishes his strength through the Force. All this of course was next to useless against Anakin who has near limitless Force Reserves.
And Yoda freakin' outclassed him. Yoda is more controlled and reserved than Anakin, and while holding back considerably- to prevent himself from dealing lethal damage to Dooku (Ataru isn't known for its percision, accuracy, and smooth disarming capabilities)- he still jumped circles around Dooku, causing him to "skip backward desperately"; in their first confrontation, although Dooku went into a 'wild flurry' (read: Going all-out), Yoda, without even MOVING, blocked all of the blows effortlessly.
Stop denying it. Yoda outclassed Dooku, plain and simple, despite holding back.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I mean seriously Yoda and Sidious are "Physically" very weak, probably much weaker than Dooku. So What??
You just said it; strength in the force > physical strength, and therefore, Sidious and Yoda- who have a mastery of the force unparalleled within the PT- should be able to utilize considerably more strength than Dooku. Hell, the AotC novel notes that Yoda's strikes would have 'driven through' the Count's defenses if it wasn't for his force abilities.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
As for Mace being Faster than Dooku??? dnt knw where you got that from considering Dooku had the Speed to compete against Yoda whereas Mace did not have the speed to compete against Sidious before his Superconducting loop came into play.
Okay. Sidious outclassed Mace considerably in speed, BUT Mace was still able to keep up, although he held the defensive. Jesus, if he couldn't keep up, he would have lost his head. Now then, you think Yoda isn't considerably faster than Dooku?
"It went on and on for many moments, but eventually Dooku's flurry began to slow, and the Count, recognizing the Futility of this attempt to overwhelm, stepped back fast.
Not fast enough.
With a sudden burst of sheer power, Master Yoda flew forward, his blade working so mightily that its residual glow outshone even those of both of Anakin's lightsabers when he was at the peak of his dance."
"Just as he was about to launch a counter, though, Yoda was gone, leaping high and turning a somersault to land right behind Dooku, in perfect balance, striking hard."
"Never could he strike low, though, for never did Yoda seem to be on the ground, leaping and spinning, flying all about, parrying each blow and offering cunning counters that had Dooku skipping backward desperately."
"Dooku stabbed up high, turning the angle of his lightsaber in anticipation that Yoda would dodge left. But Yoda, as if in complete anticipation of the movement, veered neither left nor right, but rather, dropped to the ground. The Count had already retracted the missed thrust, and began a second stab, this time down low, but Yoda had anticipated that, too, and went right back up behind the stabbing blade."
Yeah. You know what all these quotes have in common? They all describe just how BADLY Yoda outclassed Dooku in speed, jumping all over him, overwhelming him, and blocking or dodging every single one of his attacks effortlessly, forseeing them beforehand. Honestly, if Yoda went all-out, his speed would be far too much for the Count to handle.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Hers what it says in Dark Rendezvous "The Counts blade was as quick as a viper striking. Among the other jedi perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground:"That doesnt sound like Mace is Faster to me. In fact it sounds like at best Mace could hope to be as fast as Dooku.
According to Shatterpoint, there are all sorts of quotes that state that Mace was 'invisible' in comparison to the beastly Kar Vastor, for example. He was, using force speed, capable of owning an entire army of droids with his bare hands, dodging all of their blaster bolts easily and ripping them apart with super-fast punches.
Dooku is not as fast as Mace. Now, display to me where Dooku was able to move at speeds even close to that.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Actually according to Rots novel Anakin decided to win.. not kill. and we all know Anakin was in 2 minds about killing Dooku from that scene in the movie.This is proof that just because your not aiming to kill, doesnt mean you have to hold back to win. Theres still nothing stopping Yoda chopping Dookus limbs off, or at least his hands. Or simply just cut him the way Dooku cut Obi-1.
as for Yoda simply outclassing Yoda, lets not forget Dooku still managed to parry off all his attacks. On Yodas first Lightsbaer Attack of Dooku when his lightsaber outshone both of Anakins at the peak of his dance, the AOTC novel says "Dooku held strong, though, his red blade parrying brilliantly,"
Though Yodas second and third attack were Forcing Dooku back.. his third attack even putting Dooku of balance for the First Time, yet Dooku still parryed the attacks.
Then the fight ended with Yoda and Dooku locked "in a contest of strength, physical and of the Force.." where Yoda was forcing Dooku back "Just a Little.." while congratulating him on how well hes fought.
Then after Dooku escapes Anakin and Obi1 walk over to the "Exhausted Yoda." So clealry though Dooku could Never have Actually Won, he clearly does have the speed and strength to Compete against the likes of Yoda/Sidious even exhausting them in fighting him.
Oh, no, he doesn't. Yoda completely and utterly outclassed him. Please, stop denying it- the entire damn fight scene describes how much Yoda was owning him.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Oh come on! your telling me Yoda wasnt Willing to Even HARM Dooku. next youll tell me Yoda refused to even give Dooku a smack bottom!!
With Yoda's speed, ferocity, and acrobatics, it's very difficult to land a percise, incapacitation (but not killing) strike.
Your not making any sense. if Anakin didnt have the necessary speed to contend with Yoda or Sidious then he wuldnt be a Level 9 right up there with them.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Your trying very hard to prove hes not in their league in a saber fight when its already been said by Nick Gillard that he is. Seriously your argument is pointless.
There could be very much a considerable difference between 'level 9's'. Somebody could get a 91 on a quiz and another guy can get a 99. They're both in the '90's' range, but there's a difference between them.
Besides, Anakin IS, and will be able to give any of them a very good fight, and he is capable of feats they are incapable of of- his force reserves are unmatched and his 'Stronger a fight progresses' ability is completely unique to him. Point being, Anakin is a badass in saber abilities, but he doesn't have the speed or the agility to defeat the likes of Yoda.
haha! me and you always get into really long debates, neither of us giving in.. but thats ok. Neway....
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
When Anakin goes 'in teh zone', I'm fairly certain he uses the dark side;
he might do... but im sure Vapaad's superconducting loop works against actual Darksiders, and not Lightsiders with a bit of Rage in them. If it does work against Anakin then ill admit Mace wins more times than not, but only because Mace will use Anakins own power against him, not because Mace is faster or more powerful in any way.
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
besides, he's never displayed the speeds Mace was capable of displaying. I'll substantiate on that later.
have you seen the new animated movie. Anakins shown to be extremely fast and agile. and it doesnt look exaggerated or overblown like the CWmini series.
Anyway he doesnt have to show it. The narrator of the ROTS novel tells us "The Fastest. The Strongest." his strength and speed have been put together there. Implying hes just as fast as he is strong, because his almost limitlees Force Reserves give him both those things above everyone elses.
Not to mention Durge tells him in Obsessions that hes the Fastest Jedi hes ever come across. So im not sure where your getting this that Mace is Faster. Iv not seen any proof of that.
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
It's not like the fight with Sidious, where Sidious outclassed Mace in terms of speed; Anakin is slower than Mace, even in Mace's 'regular' form..
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Anakin's advantages of force power, energy, and strength will be easily negated; and Anakin's not exhausting Mace, which is a big reason as to why he was capable of beating Dooku, because Mace is a built, physically fit Jedi, capable of breaking through durasteel with his bare hands.
Was that his actual physical strength? or was it his strngth in the Force + Shatterpoint ability combined. thats the impression i always got.
Also you seem to think Anakins huge Force Energy and Reserves only grant him strength. It grants him just as much speed.
But hey ok, your saying Mace will last longer because he has better stamina than Dooku. becuase he wnt tire that easily. Hey thats fine. I can agree with that. You see im reasonable if I feel im getting a good argument back backed by proof. But I still see Mace struggling against someone SO Powerful, who just gets stronger as the fight progresses.
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
And Yoda freakin' outclassed him. Yoda is more controlled and reserved than Anakin, and while holding back considerably- to prevent himself from dealing lethal damage to Dooku (Ataru isn't known for its percision, accuracy, and smooth disarming capabilities)- he still jumped circles around Dooku, causing him to "skip backward desperately"; in their first confrontation, although Dooku went into a 'wild flurry' (read: Going all-out), Yoda, without even MOVING, blocked all of the blows effortlessly.
Stop denying it. Yoda outclassed Dooku, plain and simple, despite holding back.
Well im not so sure on how much he was holding back. I mean the Novel doenst state Yoda as holding back. and I dnt think the word "Capture" on its own says much, considering Mace went to Capture/Arrest Palpatine.. so do you think Mace was holding back in their fight as well??? and I think using Ataru as an excuse for him not cutting Dooku anywhere but his Head is a bit Lame.
If he was really outclassing him SO BADLY then Jumping all around him he should have been able to cut him somewhere.
And you say Yoda did so "Effortlessly", but clearly it wasnt Effortlessly otherwise the Jedi Master wuldnt have been "Exhausted" after the fight, and wuldnt have felt like he doesnt need to Saber sparring practice for a Good while now.
But I admit Yoda did outclass him. Of course he did. Dooku wuld never be able to beat him. But he did have the "Speed" and "Power" to compete otherwise he wuldnt have been able to keep parrying the attacks, and he would have been "Captured" for sure.
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Yeah. You know what all these quotes have in common? They all describe just how BADLY Yoda outclassed Dooku in speed, jumping all over him, overwhelming him, and blocking or dodging every single one of his attacks effortlessly, forseeing them beforehand. Honestly, if Yoda went all-out, his speed would be far too much for the Count to handle..
Yeah because your being quite selsctive in your quotes. You missed out the part "Dooku held strong though, his red blade parrying brilliantly." Now how do you think Dooku could have done that if he didnt have the speed to compete?? I know Yoda is faster, but you cant deny the Counts speed and precision there.
It seems Dooku tended to do worse in the fight when he got frustrated that he could never gain any kind of advantage.
Also You also missed out the part where the fight ended with the 2 of them locked in a saber lock, on a "contest of strength" where Yoda started to overpower him "just a little", and congratulated the Count on giving him a good fight.. and finally uv missed the end where it states Yoda was Exhausted.
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
According to Shatterpoint, there are all sorts of quotes that state that Mace was 'invisible' in comparison to the beastly Kar Vastor, for example. He was, using force speed, capable of owning an entire army of droids with his bare hands, dodging all of their blaster bolts easily and ripping them apart with super-fast punches.
Dooku is not as fast as Mace. Now, display to me where Dooku was able to move at speeds even close to that. ..
you still seem to ignore what the narrators tell us.. which is in Bladework(which included speed) that Dooku was easily Maces equal. Also they fought in Obsession, and they both kept their gorund fighting completley even.. and Mace WAS trying to KILL him.. now you tell me If Mace was so much faster why he didnt just strike him down there and then???
but you have convinced me that Mace would eventually win the saber fight against dooku simply because Dooku would tire first. so I guess our debates arnt entirely pointless 🙂
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
haha! me and you always get into really long debates, neither of us giving in.. but thats ok. Neway....
Yes. There's been longer, though. Like... 13 page arguments.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
he might do... but im sure Vapaad's superconducting loop works against actual Darksiders, and not Lightsiders with a bit of Rage in them. If it does work against Anakin then ill admit Mace wins more times than not, but only because Mace will use Anakins own power against him, not because Mace is faster or more powerful in any way.
We don't exactly know percisely how Mace's superconducting loop works, but we can assume that it reproduces dark side energies within others and uses it for the user's own benefit. For once, even lightsiders with a 'bit of rage' within them generate dark side energy- everyone using the dark side to some extent does, and therefore, Mace's Vaapad will certainly come into play.
Mace IS faster than Anakin. Anakin possesses different advantages, true, but Mace IS faster.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
have you seen the new animated movie. Anakins shown to be extremely fast and agile. and it doesnt look exaggerated or overblown like the CWmini series.
Nope. Not sure I intend to, either. How is it?
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Anyway he doesnt have to show it. The narrator of the ROTS novel tells us "The Fastest. The Strongest." his strength and speed have been put together there. Implying hes just as fast as he is strong, because his almost limitlees Force Reserves give him both those things above everyone elses.
Not to mention Durge tells him in Obsessions that hes the Fastest Jedi hes ever come across. So im not sure where your getting this that Mace is Faster. Iv not seen any proof of that.
Okay. The only other truly notable Jedi in Anakin's actual generation is Obi-Wan (Durge also came across him). So, all that means is that Anakin is faster than Obi-Wan; and look how that turned out. Obi-Wan held his own nicely, which requires keeping up with a crazy Anakin.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Nope. still not buying that. I just dnt think that youve proven that Mace is faster than the Strongest and Fastest Jedi.
'Of his generation'. Kindly remember that.
Mace's speed depictions, from Shatterpoint to the CW series > Anakin's.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Was that his actual physical strength? or was it his strngth in the Force + Shatterpoint ability combined. thats the impression i always got.
Maybe it's physical strength aided by the force, but he didn't actually tough their bodies in percise locations; he just punches them and ripped out their circuits.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Also you seem to think Anakins huge Force Energy and Reserves only grant him strength. It grants him just as much speed.
Yeah, it does, but to Sidious', Yoda's, and Mace's extent? All are vastly more potent and masterful force users. In the case of Yoda and Sidious, they're frail old dewds who are forced to rely on the force to an extreme level to compete with physical opponents; their speed is simply incredible. Well beyond Anakin's own.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
But hey ok, your saying Mace will last longer because he has better stamina than Dooku. becuase he wnt tire that easily. Hey thats fine. I can agree with that. You see im reasonable if I feel im getting a good argument back backed by proof. But I still see Mace struggling against someone SO Powerful, who just gets stronger as the fight progresses.
🙂
Look. Anakin won because he physically overpowered the Count with his massive Djem So strikes, and proceeded to tire him out- if I remember correctly, Dooku felt 'trapped in his skull'. Now, all that doesn't mean that Anakin is not the more versatile and effective swordsmen, but it simply won't WORK against Mace, who possesses incredible stamina and physical power- Vaapad also relies on kinetic, powerful energy.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well im not so sure on how much he was holding back. I mean the Novel doenst state Yoda as holding back. and I dnt think the word "Capture" on its own says much, considering Mace went to Capture/Arrest Palpatine.. so do you think Mace was holding back in their fight as well??? and I think using Ataru as an excuse for him not cutting Dooku anywhere but his Head is a bit Lame.
'Capture' = 'not kill'. Now, y'see, Ataru isn't known for its percision; Yoda would simply become a 'whirlwind of destruction'. He's never accomplished any incredible feat of percision with his sabers, and Ataru isn't known for gracefully disarming its opponents.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
If he was really outclassing him SO BADLY then Jumping all around him he should have been able to cut him somewhere.
And you say Yoda did so "Effortlessly", but clearly it wasnt Effortlessly otherwise the Jedi Master wuldnt have been "Exhausted" after the fight, and wuldnt have felt like he doesnt need to Saber sparring practice for a Good while now.
But I admit Yoda did outclass him. Of course he did. Dooku wuld never be able to beat him. But he did have the "Speed" and "Power" to compete otherwise he wuldnt have been able to keep parrying the attacks, and he would have been "Captured" for sure.
Let me ask you- how does that, exactly, differ from Dooku's fight with Anakin? Dooku BLOCKED all of Anakin's attacks until Anakin feinted, grabbed him, and cut off his hands, which is a show of power or anything; Dooku kept up with Anakin's strikes, albeit with extreme difficulty. Same with Yoda; he blocked most of Yoda's attacks with great difficult. His bladework become messy, uncontrolled, and you know how much Dooku hates that, being obsessed with grace and fluency.
The differences? Anakin was using the dark side, was less controlled than Yoda, and his duel lasted a lot longer than Yoda's duel. Yoda, on the other hand, was holding back, was more controlled, and fought a far shorter duel with Dooku- and Dooku ran away from Yoda, and actually prepared the missle in orbit, KNOWING that Yoda would own him, even in Vjun. And Dooku is arrogant.
For all we know, if Yoda's duel lasted longer, he could've overpowered Dooku, like Anakin did. Dooku certainly thought so.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yeah because your being quite selsctive in your quotes. You missed out the part "Dooku held strong though, his red blade parrying brilliantly." Now how do you think Dooku could have done that if he didnt have the speed to compete?? I know Yoda is faster, but you cant deny the Counts speed and precision there.
It seems Dooku tended to do worse in the fight when he got frustrated that he could never gain any kind of advantage.
Also You also missed out the part where the fight ended with the 2 of them locked in a saber lock, on a "contest of strength" where Yoda started to overpower him "just a little", and congratulated the Count on giving him a good fight.. and finally uv missed the end where it states Yoda was Exhausted.
Yeah. You're ignoring the fact that Anakin didn't outclass Dooku in speed, like Yoda did. You're also ignoring other facts I've listed.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
you still seem to ignore what the narrators tell us.. which is in Bladework(which included speed) that Dooku was easily Maces equal. Also they fought in Obsession, and they both kept their gorund fighting completley even.. and Mace WAS trying to KILL him.. now you tell me If Mace was so much faster why he didnt just strike him down there and then???but you have convinced me that Mace would eventually win the saber fight against dooku simply because Dooku would tire first. so I guess our debates arnt entirely pointless 🙂
In obsession? Their duel was brief. And, really, speed doesn't mean you can simply blitz someone and one-shot them, unless you're Sidious and you're owning Agen Kolar. And Mace's actual displays of speed are considerably greater, too, from decimating an army of durasteel-built, rapidly firing droids with his bare hands to his displays in Shatterpoint.
And yeah, I guess our debates aren't pointless, eh? 😄
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Nope. Not sure I intend to, either. How is it?
It was decent. I cant believe not even Star Wars fans have turned up to watch it. No wonder its not made any money! Lol.. thats and the fact that there was little or no hype and marketing for it. Neway you watched the CW mini series right?? so u shuld defo watch the animated movie then.
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
'Of his generation'. Kindly remember that.
Perhaps of ANY Generation!!! please dnt forget that. the "perhaps" wuld not be there if his speed was clearly no match for Mace or Yodas.
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Mace's speed depictions, from Shatterpoint to the CW series > Anakin's..
Urm please your not getting his speed from CW series. did you fail to notice Asajj Ventress was depicted being just as fast in that series???
The animated movie would be a much better source for cannon feats. and like I said theyve shown Anakin to be very fast and agile. If they ever show animated Mace to be clearly faster than Anakin or Dooku, then ill buy it.
Again Dark Rendezvous depicts Mace and Dooku as equals in the speed and lethalness of their bladework! So theres no reason to suggest that Dooku culdnt reach the same sorts of speeds that Mace was depicted to reach in shatterpoint.
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Look. Anakin won because he physically overpowered the Count with his massive Djem So strikes, and proceeded to tire him out- if I remember correctly, Dooku felt 'trapped in his skull'. Now, all that doesn't mean that Anakin is not the more versatile and effective swordsmen, but it simply won't WORK against Mace, who possesses incredible stamina and physical power- Vaapad also relies on kinetic, powerful energy. ..
Anakin won because of his limitless force reserves. because he gets stronger as the fight progresses, and because he "decided to win" and he stopped holding back for the first time.
He could potentially have all those advantages against Mace, but ill give you that Mace would last longer due to his physical strength and stamina. but i still think hed lose but after a really long fight. simply because Anakin will just keep getting stronger, and theres only so long Mace wuld be able to keep up.
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Yeah. You're ignoring the fact that Anakin didn't outclass Dooku in speed, like Yoda did. You're also ignoring other facts I've listed...
doesnt really matter, because I think both Dooku and Anakin are incredibly fast, and Anakins Force Reserves could help him to keep up with Yoda's speed better than Dooku could.
As far as the Mace thing goes, again it doesnt matter because we know Sidious(whose just as fast as Yoda) was much Faster than Mace, so for that reason I dnt see him really being any faster than Dooku or Yoda.
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
In obsession? Their duel was brief.
well it lasted a few scenes which is long enough in a comic book. but the point is they were exactly even! both holding their ground perfectly. unlike the Yoda vs. Dooku and the Anakin vs. Dooku. Add that to Dark Rendezvous stating them to be equal in sabers, and the conclusion is obvious.
Though like iv alreadly admitted, Mace would take the sabers in the end due to Dooku getting tired and relying on the Force to keep replenishing him.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
It was decent. I cant believe not even Star Wars fans have turned up to watch it. No wonder its not made any money! Lol.. thats and the fact that there was little or no hype and marketing for it. Neway you watched the CW mini series right?? so u shuld defo watch the animated movie then.
Now, I don't know about that. I'm not exactly a fan of the 'kiddy Star Wars', which is why I find RotJ and TPM to be the low points of the saga; sure, they both have good parts (Emperor/Vader/Luke scenes in RotJ, for example), but all in all, they're overwritten by childishness. Ironically, my problem with TPM is kiddy Anakin a LOT more than Jar Jar; I find him to be somewhat amusing. Kiddy Anakin sucks ass.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Perhaps of ANY Generation!!! please dnt forget that. the "perhaps" wuld not be there if his speed was clearly no match for Mace or Yodas.
Or, 'perhaps' would not have been there if he was faster than Yoda and Mace. It works both ways.
By the way, I don't think any of them would just blitz him, but he can't last a very long duel against someone who outclasses him in speed, agility, and overall offensive capability.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Urm please your not getting his speed from CW series. did you fail to notice Asajj Ventress was depicted being just as fast in that series???
Not only the visual depictions of that speed, but the actual feat- easily dodging fast blaster bolts and pummeling droids with his bare hands, which moved faster than anything Asajj was shown to do.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
The animated movie would be a much better source for cannon feats. and like I said theyve shown Anakin to be very fast and agile. If they ever show animated Mace to be clearly faster than Anakin or Dooku, then ill buy it.
Sure. The Clone Wars cartoon, despite showing all characters and 'exagerrated' or whatever, depicts Yoda and Mace to clearly move faster than Anakin.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Again Dark Rendezvous depicts Mace and Dooku as equals in the speed and lethalness of their bladework! So theres no reason to suggest that Dooku culdnt reach the same sorts of speeds that Mace was depicted to reach in shatterpoint.
You know speed isn't the only thing in lightsaber dueling, right? Technical skill, percision, and general grace apply as well, and in that scenario, Dooku > Mace.
Mace is faster and stronger. Deal with it; his displays of speed are considerably superior.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Anakin won because of his limitless force reserves. because he gets stronger as the fight progresses, and because he "decided to win" and he stopped holding back for the first time.
He could potentially have all those advantages against Mace, but ill give you that Mace would last longer due to his physical strength and stamina. but i still think hed lose but after a really long fight. simply because Anakin will just keep getting stronger, and theres only so long Mace wuld be able to keep up.
Shatterpoint? Vaapad? Anakin isn't known for his uber defenses. Even disregarding his speed, Mace could find a flaw in Anakin's bladework and proceed to pwn him.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
doesnt really matter, because I think both Dooku and Anakin are incredibly fast, and Anakins Force Reserves could help him to keep up with Yoda's speed better than Dooku could.
Anakin NEVER actually DISPLAYING blinding speed; so, unless you quote me an actual quote lauding his speed levels, I won't concede the point. Be logical, please. If in the millions of times Anakin was described fighting he was never shown to move at speeds on Yoda, Sidious, or Mace's levels, we have to assume we can't; he's fast, very fast, and he may be able to keep up with Mace, but honestly, his advantages lie elsewhere.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
As far as the Mace thing goes, again it doesnt matter because we know Sidious(whose just as fast as Yoda) was much Faster than Mace, so for that reason I dnt see him really being any faster than Dooku or Yoda.
Right. We can ignore Mace's speeds in Shatterpoint and the CW cartoon, right? Riiight?
No, we can't; he simply shows himself to be insanely fast, but I'll concede the Mace won't be able to win virtue of pure speed. His Vaapad, Shatterpoint, and physical ability spell that.
And if you think Sidious and Yoda are 'much faster' than Mace- and you don't think Anakin is necessarily faster than Mace- I'm sure you can see that they are faster than Anakin too, right? Sidious outclassed Mace in speed and was rapidly overpowering until Mace was fully 'immersed in Vaapad'; Anakin won't be able to do that.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
well it lasted a few scenes which is long enough in a comic book. but the point is they were exactly even! both holding their ground perfectly. unlike the Yoda vs. Dooku and the Anakin vs. Dooku. Add that to Dark Rendezvous stating them to be equal in sabers, and the conclusion is obvious.
1. A>B>C fails. Stop constantly using it.
2. It's plausible Mace's powers increased between Shatterpoint and RotS.
Really, even you conceded that Mace would beat Dooku in a fight.
Well I actually loved TPM and ROTJ.. and I even thought little Anakin was cute.. and a bit of a smooth talker for such a young one: "Are u an Angel?" Lol! and I thought Jar Jar was just chilling. I didnt mind him too much either. but still if youve seen the CW mini series and even use that as proof in your debates, than I seriously suggest you watch the Animated movie, which is more "realistic" in Star Wars terms at leats, and just a much better cartoon.
Neway back to our Never Conceeding debate...
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Or, 'perhaps' would not have been there if he was faster than Yoda and Mace. It works both ways.
yes but it shows that he must at least be close to them in speed, otherwise the "perhaps" would not be there. so it supports my argument a lot more.
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Not only the visual depictions of that speed, but the actual feat- easily dodging fast blaster bolts and pummeling droids with his bare hands, which moved faster than anything Asajj was shown to do. .
Not only did Asajj show the same blinding speed, but when she did that she took down a whole arena of deadly killers and monters.
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Sure. The Clone Wars cartoon, despite showing all characters and 'exagerrated' or whatever, depicts Yoda and Mace to clearly move faster than Anakin..
yeah it also showed Ventress moving fatser than we saw Aankin move. So your point is moot.
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Shatterpoint? Vaapad? Anakin isn't known for his uber defenses. Even disregarding his speed, Mace could find a flaw in Anakin's bladework and proceed to pwn him.
yes... a possibility. another one is that even Mace has difficulty dealing with an opponent who gets stronger as the fight proceeds, and Anankin overpowers him with his far superior raw power and force reserves.
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Anakin NEVER actually DISPLAYING blinding speed; so, unless you quote me an actual quote lauding his speed levels, I won't concede the point..
So "Fastest jedi of his generation, Perhaps ANY generation," is not a quote for you?? Also I just realised, Anakin at the very least has faster reflexes than Mace, because thats whats always helped him to be an exceptional pilot. Better than any of the other jedis, including Mace and Yoda.
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Be logical, please. If in the millions of times Anakin was described fighting he was never shown to move at speeds on Yoda, Sidious, or Mace's levels, we have to assume we can't;
Well I think in the animated movie he was shown to be as fast and agile as Yoda and Sidious were in the actual movies. A brillaint scene is when he leaps from bike to bike destroying the droids and then gets on one of those bikes himself and shows off his piloting skills. This scene showed how amazing a jedi Anakin has become.
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Right. We can ignore Mace's speeds in Shatterpoint and the CW cartoon, right? Riiight?
well im not sure about shatterpoint. not read the whole thing. could you give me the page no., so I can check it myself please?
but yeah as for CW cartoon, yeah we should ignore his speed depictions, because he was shown to be no faster than Ventress as iv already mentioned.
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
And if you think Sidious and Yoda are 'much faster' than Mace- and you don't think Anakin is necessarily faster than Mace- I'm sure you can see that they are faster than Anakin too, right??
Yoda and Sidious probably are faster, with Anakin maybe being the next fastest, and definetely able to compete with them in Sabers at least. Might even have a shot of winning a Sabers Only contest.
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
It's plausible Mace's powers increased between Shatterpoint and RotS.Really, even you conceded that Mace would beat Dooku in a fight.
Dark Rendezvous took place only 6 months before ROTS. Obsessions was even closer to ROTS than that. So I doubt Mace inproved much in that time.
And No I didnt Conceed Mace would definetely beat Dooku in a fight. I conceeded that he would EVENTUALLY win the sabers. But while the sabers lasts(and it will last a while) Dooku and Mace will be quite evenly matched.
Of course in an all out fight Dooku always has a chance to take Windu with his superior Force powers whether Windu is Faster or Not. Of course thats just my opinion but based on the kind of people Dooku has dominated with his Superior Force powers even in the middle of a Saber fight.. Sora Bulq, ObiWan Kenobi, Vos, Tholme.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well I actually loved TPM and ROTJ.. and I even thought little Anakin was cute.. and a bit of a smooth talker for such a young one: "Are u an Angel?" Lol! and I thought Jar Jar was just chilling. I didnt mind him too much either. but still if youve seen the CW mini series and even use that as proof in your debates, than I seriously suggest you watch the Animated movie, which is more "realistic" in Star Wars terms at leats, and just a much better cartoon.]
Really? You must be the only person in existence who thinks the the CW movies is better than the cartoons. I gotta admit, though, I'm not -too- big a fan of them. Random action gets tiresome after a while.
But little Anakin was cute? He was f*cking TERRIBLE. I can't stand the little piece of crap.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Neway back to our Never Conceeding debate...
Yes. You could make an exception, though. 😄
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
yes but it shows that he must at least be close to them in speed, otherwise the "perhaps" would not be there. so it supports my argument a lot more.
No, it doesn't it works BOTH ways. 'Perhaps' could be because certain people are faster than him- Mace and Yoda are the only two swordsmen in the Order who are lauded for incredible displays of speeds. And, in Mace's case, strength.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Not only did Asajj show the same blinding speed, but when she did that she took down a whole arena of deadly killers and monters.
Can you substantiate the power of those killers? And besides, use your logic. Visual displays can only take you so far; Mace fought a deadlier army of super fast-firing droids, and he tore them apart. He also punched them at superhuman speeds. Asajj didn't.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
yeah it also showed Ventress moving fatser than we saw Aankin move. So your point is moot.
Don't diss Ventress. She's a damn fast swords... err... woman.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
yes... a possibility. another one is that even Mace has difficulty dealing with an opponent who gets stronger as the fight proceeds, and Anankin overpowers him with his far superior raw power and force reserves.
Right, that's also a possibility; however, I find that HIGHLY unlikely. Let's analyze how his 'raw power and force reserves' came into play against the Count, shall we? Dooku's Makashi does not GENERATE the force to meet against the power of Djem So strikes, especially strikes such as Anakin's. The force of these strikes caused Dooku's swordplay to be more difficult to execute- it also caused him to tire rapidly and be unable to stand before Anakin, who gained power as the fight progressed.
Mace is faster, more agile, and A LOT physically stronger than Dooku- he has stamina, too boot. His Vaapad generates as much physical force as Djem So, and his individual strength feats rival, if not surpass, Anakin's own. The ever-increasing power granted to him by the 'unleashed' raw power and the dark side energy will be granted to Mace, as well. It's only a matter of time before a flaw in Anakin's swordplay is seen and Anakin is taken down.
You see?
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
So "Fastest jedi of his generation, Perhaps ANY generation," is not a quote for you?? Also I just realised, Anakin at the very least has faster reflexes than Mace, because thats whats always helped him to be an exceptional pilot. Better than any of the other jedis, including Mace and Yoda.
That's not only reflexes; it's foresight, attunement to the force, and natural talent. Most of his piloting skill is natural. That doesn't mean his reflexes are superior to Mace.
I've already dealt with this quote.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well I think in the animated movie he was shown to be as fast and agile as Yoda and Sidious were in the actual movies. A brillaint scene is when he leaps from bike to bike destroying the droids and then gets on one of those bikes himself and shows off his piloting skills. This scene showed how amazing a jedi Anakin has become.
Nice. Though, to be fair, it would be FAR easier to animated fast moves than to actually display them onscreen. The fact that Yoda and Sidious' speed still match Anakin's is a testament for their ability; I'll guarantee that they'll be both individually faster if depicted in that cartoon.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
well im not sure about shatterpoint. not read the whole thing. could you give me the page no., so I can check it myself please?
but yeah as for CW cartoon, yeah we should ignore his speed depictions, because he was shown to be no faster than Ventress as iv already mentioned.
As already mentioned, visual evidence =/= all.
And the quote goes something like "If Vastor was moving fast, Mace might as well have been invisible.", I think. Something that implies that he's moving considerably faster than Vastor is- and Kar is a BEAST.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yoda and Sidious probably are faster, with Anakin maybe being the next fastest, and definetely able to compete with them in Sabers at least. Might even have a shot of winning a Sabers Only contest.
'Compete'? Yeah. 'Defeat'? No.
Speed isn't everything, but Anakin is certainly slower than both of them. Probably slower than Mace, too, but that's up for debate.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Dark Rendezvous took place only 6 months before ROTS. Obsessions was even closer to ROTS than that. So I doubt Mace inproved much in that time.
Makes sense. Still, the duel was far shorter than Anakin vs. Dooku.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And No I didnt Conceed Mace would definetely beat Dooku in a fight. I conceeded that he would EVENTUALLY win the sabers. But while the sabers lasts(and it will last a while) Dooku and Mace will be quite evenly matched.
I see.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Of course in an all out fight Dooku always has a chance to take Windu with his superior Force powers whether Windu is Faster or Not. Of course thats just my opinion but based on the kind of people Dooku has dominated with his Superior Force powers even in the middle of a Saber fight.. Sora Bulq, ObiWan Kenobi, Vos, Tholme.
All of them inferior to Mace. I disagree, but Dooku is arguably the better pure force user.
Master Crimzon I think iv seen the deal with the speed with Mace and Dooku at least.
Mace might be able to generally move and leap around faster using Vapaad. But when it comes to sword duelling Dookus superior duelling skill using minimal effort and precise parries e.t.c gives him that extra quickness in duelling.
In the AOTC novel when Dooku fights Obi it says Dooku attacks with his blade and then retracts it so quick that most Obi1's parries would just hit the air.
So this would satisfy your eveidence about how much faster Mace is accrding to Shatterpoint, but also satisfy Dark Rendezvous claim that in pure Bladework/Duelling Mace and Dooku are equals. N.B it made that claim in reference to the quickness and lethalness of Dookus sword fighting.
As for the Force Fight. I know those guys Dooku dominated are not Mace's equal, but they are all powerful opponents. and Dooku seriously dominated them with mere flick of the hand.
and Mace has fought Sora Bulq and Ventress but did not defeat either as easily as Dooku did, mainly due to Dookus swift and powerful Force Moves. So Dooku is definetely significantly superior in the Force.
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Really? You must be the only person in existence who thinks the the CW movies is better than the cartoons.
Really? Strange. I thought it was quite good, for a cartoon. Action and visuals were really good, and story was decent too.
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Mace fought a deadlier army of super fast-firing droids, and he tore them apart.
haha! shame he didnt do that in AOTC. he culd have saved many jedis from dying. it was clearly a kids special exaggerated feat. If he did defeat that army in continuity, then it would have been in a very different fashion to how the cartoon showed it.
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
That's not only reflexes; it's foresight, attunement to the force, and natural talent. Most of his piloting skill is natural. That doesn't mean his reflexes are superior to Mace.
NO NO... his natural talent is mostly down to his Force powers. TPM made that clear. thats why he was the only human who could pod race, at the age of 10! so he will almost definetely have the fastest reflexes. a jedi gets their super reflexes from their attunement to the force and foresight.
"He can see things before they happen. Its why he appears to have such fast reflexes." Qui-Gon Jinn in TPM.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Master Crimzon I think iv seen the deal with the speed with Mace and Dooku at least.Mace might be able to generally move and leap around faster using Vapaad. But when it comes to sword duelling Dookus superior duelling skill using minimal effort and precise parries e.t.c gives him that extra quickness in duelling.
It does. But Dooku's feats do not rival Mace's "multiple visible blades" bladework in speed; it's plausible his strikes are of greater percision but quickness, but Mace is able to strike far more times per, say, a second than Dooku is capable of.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
In the AOTC novel when Dooku fights Obi it says Dooku attacks with his blade and then retracts it so quick that most Obi1's parries would just hit the air.
Dooku's strikes are quick, but it's evident that he simply can't strike as many times and with as speed as Mace is capable of. Don't even think of comparing AotC Obi-Wan to Mace.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
So this would satisfy your eveidence about how much faster Mace is accrding to Shatterpoint, but also satisfy Dark Rendezvous claim that in pure Bladework/Duelling Mace and Dooku are equals. N.B it made that claim in reference to the quickness and lethalness of Dookus sword fighting.
PURE BLADEWORK? Technical skill? Dooku is most decidedly superior. Quickness and lethality? No, no, no. Mace possesses the deadliest and most dangerous combat style within the mythos; his feats of speed, from movement to the amount of times he is capable of striking, is superior to Dooku. Dooku is better in elegance and percision, but that's it.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
As for the Force Fight. I know those guys Dooku dominated are not Mace's equal, but they are all powerful opponents. and Dooku seriously dominated them with mere flick of the hand.and Mace has fought Sora Bulq and Ventress but did not defeat either as easily as Dooku did, mainly due to Dookus swift and powerful Force Moves. So Dooku is definetely significantly superior in the Force.
Dooku never the sheer power of Mace's abilities. He didn't crush durasteel, he didn't lift massive objects; all of his feats are about refinement and small-scale abilities. He's certainly more masterful than Mace, but I think that Mace's feats- in sheer power necessary- trump Dooku's.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Really? Strange. I thought it was quite good, for a cartoon. Action and visuals were really good, and story was decent too.
Didn't watch it yet, but as expected, 'hardcore fans' hate it.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
haha! shame he didnt do that in AOTC. he culd have saved many jedis from dying. it was clearly a kids special exaggerated feat. If he did defeat that army in continuity, then it would have been in a very different fashion to how the cartoon showed it.
He beat that army in continuity. There's nothing to suggest that he didn't, and it was retconned, nor did Lucas say it wasn't canon. Incosistency aside, it's evident that Mace's feats are legit.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
NO NO... his natural talent is mostly down to his Force powers. TPM made that clear. thats why he was the only human who could pod race, at the age of 10! so he will almost definetely have the fastest reflexes. a jedi gets their super reflexes from their attunement to the force and foresight."He can see things before they happen. Its why he appears to have such fast reflexes." Qui-Gon Jinn in TPM.
Makes sense, I guess.
And the quote goes something like "If Vastor was moving fast, Mace might as well have been invisible.", I think. Something that implies that he's moving considerably faster than Vastor is- and Kar is a BEAST.
Shatterpoint:
But where Vastor's speed was blinding, Mace's was invisible.
I'll post the rest later, I've gotta go to x-country.