Originally posted by Master Crimzon
It does. But Dooku's feats do not rival Mace's "multiple visible blades" bladework in speed; it's plausible his strikes are of greater percision but quickness, but Mace is able to strike far more times per, say, a second than Dooku is capable of.
more strikes per second? well maybe not since Dookus strikes will be close parries.. add that to Dooku being incredibly fast anyway...
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Dooku's strikes are quick, but it's evident that he simply can't strike as many times and with as speed as Mace is capable of. Don't even think of comparing AotC Obi-Wan to Mace.
thats like me saying dnt even think of comparing the droids Mace defeated to Dooku! Lol Look we know Dookus very fast, fast enough to deal with Greivous's 20 strikes per second, who also has blinding speed by the way.
Add that to the fact that we know Mace is nowhere near as fast as Sidious, and the fact that Dooku has speed to compete with Yoda(though granted he does get overpowered quite badly)... and then add Dookus style of close quick precision parries... add all that and do you really think theres NO WAY Dooku can match Mace in Speed even in a Saber duel where Dooku is at his fastest??
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Dooku never the sheer power of Mace's abilities. He didn't crush durasteel, he didn't lift massive objects; all of his feats are about refinement and small-scale abilities. He's certainly more masterful than Mace, but I think that Mace's feats- in sheer power necessary- trump Dooku's.
The smashing Durasteel is due to Maces shatterpoint ability. and what massive objects does Mace lift?? whilst weve seen Dooku rip apart stone roofs in seconds, push massive pillars, and throw huge platforms onto his opponenets. theres no evidence anywhere that Mace's TK is superior to Dookus.
However there is plenty of evidence that Dooku can Force fight other Force powered opponents much better than Mace can. Ventress and Bulq come straight to mind, as both Mace and Dooku have fought them.
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
He beat that army in continuity. There's nothing to suggest that he didn't, and it was retconned, nor did Lucas say it wasn't canon. Incosistency aside, it's evident that Mace's feats are legit.
Do u not accept that that was a blatantly exagerated feat.. why didnt Mace just do that in AOTC?? also Yoda sends massive space ships back into the sky in that cartoon, whilst in the film he has trouble catching a large pillar. so seriously stop using TK feats from the CW cartoon series as evidence.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
more strikes per second? well maybe not since Dookus strikes will be close parries.. add that to Dooku being incredibly fast anyway...
Again: I'm not suggesting that Dooku can't compete with Mace's speed. Mace isn't gonna blitz him, nor will he blitz Anakin- but he's simply faster. All evidence points towards it; there is rarely a piece of Mace fighting without describing and emphasizing his speed. He's simply faster than Dooku. Stronger, too.
Now, I'm not saying that Dooku doesn't have his advantages, but physically, Mace kicks the crap out of him.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
thats like me saying dnt even think of comparing the droids Mace defeated to Dooku! Lol Look we know Dookus very fast, fast enough to deal with Greivous's 20 strikes per second, who also has blinding speed by the way.
There is no proof Grievous has made it up to 20 strikes per second in his regular 'sparring' matches with Dooku; I find it doubtful that he would go all-out against someone he respects and doesn't want to kill.
And Mace forced Grievous on the defensive. He can more than compete with Grievous.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Add that to the fact that we know Mace is nowhere near as fast as Sidious, and the fact that Dooku has speed to compete with Yoda(though granted he does get overpowered quite badly)... and then add Dookus style of close quick precision parries... add all that and do you really think theres NO WAY Dooku can match Mace in Speed even in a Saber duel where Dooku is at his fastest??
He'll be able to match him, but Mace is simply superior. Get OVER it already. His displays of speed >>> Dooku's, he's in far better physical shape, and he also relies on his speed- which is more substantiated upon than Dooku's- to a far greater extent.
And really, it's not like Mace didn't compete with Sidious, either. The difference is, Mace just saw a bunch of his friends butchered before his eyes. Oh, and Sidious, unlike Yoda, was going for the kill- a vast advantage. Still, Mace survived long enough to tap into Vaapad's energies and match Sidious. Mace surviving some time against a bloodlusted Sidious > Dooku surviving some time against a Yoda holding back.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
The smashing Durasteel is due to Maces shatterpoint ability. and what massive objects does Mace lift?? whilst weve seen Dooku rip apart stone roofs in seconds, push massive pillars, and throw huge platforms onto his opponenets. theres no evidence anywhere that Mace's TK is superior to Dookus.
However there is plenty of evidence that Dooku can Force fight other Force powered opponents much better than Mace can. Ventress and Bulq come straight to mind, as both Mace and Dooku have fought them.
Prove that it's due to his Shatterpoint ability and not pure power. He simply crushed Grievous- there's nothing to indicate it was due to some sort of special use of the force.
In power, Mace's feats are simply superior to Dooku's. In finesse, Dooku's are better, but I think that Mace's actual power is likely superior.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Do u not accept that that was a blatantly exagerated feat.. why didnt Mace just do that in AOTC?? also Yoda sends massive space ships back into the sky in that cartoon, whilst in the film he has trouble catching a large pillar. so seriously stop using TK feats from the CW cartoon series as evidence.
Why can't you accept that nothing refutes the canonicity of the Cartoon? We're forced to accept it, considering GL had a heavy hand in it and stated that it was his vision for Jedi Knights.
Prove that the feats aren't canon, or drop the point.
Originally posted by DARTH POWERAdd that to the fact that we know Mace is nowhere near as fast as Sidious, and the fact that Dooku has speed to compete with Yoda(though granted he does get overpowered quite badly)... and then add Dookus style of close quick precision parries... add all that and do you really think theres NO WAY Dooku can match Mace in Speed even in a Saber duel where Dooku is at his fastest??
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
The smashing Durasteel is due to Maces shatterpoint ability. and what massive objects does Mace lift?? whilst weve seen Dooku rip apart stone roofs in seconds, push massive pillars, and throw huge platforms onto his opponenets. theres no evidence anywhere that Mace's TK is superior to Dookus.
However there is plenty of evidence that Dooku can Force fight other Force powered opponents much better than Mace can. Ventress and Bulq come straight to mind, as both Mace and Dooku have fought them.
The feats of the Jedi Masters and Knights as performed during the Clone Wars television series are mentioned specifically even in the New Essential Chronology. George Lucas stated that his ideal Jedi would demonstrate such potency; it's evident that the only reason that we don't see Jedi playing ping pong with planets or moving faster than the eye can see is because a.) contrary to popular belief, Lucas's budget is limited and b.) you can't witness a duel between two people moving faster than the eye can see.
Originally posted by Lt. Valerian
Indeed, but I do not believe it was necessary at all to make Windu completely annihilate an entire army of battle droids all by himself.
I agree, but if someone wanted to downplay that particular feat they could mention how in some scenes that he is surrounded in. Only the droids in front of him shoot while the ones behind him with the best chance to kill him just stand there.
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Still usable in arguments.But yeah, stupid inconsistency = fail.
how can you use stupid inconsistencies in your arguments. by using them your thereby admitting that your argument is full of stupid inconsistencies.
we cant compare CW cartoons "ideal vision of jedi knights" to the movies and novels version. therefore you can not compare Mace's feat from the CW cartoon to Anakin and Dookus feats from the movies and the novels.
Originally posted by Gideon
The feats of the Jedi Masters and Knights as performed during the Clone Wars television series are mentioned specifically even in the New Essential Chronology. George Lucas stated that his ideal Jedi would demonstrate such potency; it's evident that the only reason that we don't see Jedi playing ping pong with planets or moving faster than the eye can see is because a.) contrary to popular belief, Lucas's budget is limited and b.) you can't witness a duel between two people moving faster than the eye can see.
Yes but when we see 200 jedi including Mace getting battered by army droid army, and then we see Mace (without his lightsaber half the time) beating down a droid army single handedly, then we of course can not compare feats.
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
There is no proof Grievous has made it up to 20 strikes per second in his regular 'sparring' matches with Dooku; I find it doubtful that he would go all-out against someone he respects and doesn't want to kill.
And Mace forced Grievous on the defensive. He can more than compete with Grievous.
Mace only saber fought Greivous when he was wielding 2 sabers. Dooku on the other hand sparred with Greivous constantly to train him to be the perfect jedi killer. so of course he fought him at his full potential. saying he didnt is complete speculation. If anything it was Dooku holding back!
and we saw in the CW cartoons Dooku EASILY handling Greivous with 2 sabers, therfore its only logical to assume that when Dooku was "Hard Pressed" to handle GG at times it was when GG was fighting with 4 sabers at full potential.
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Mace surviving some time against a bloodlusted Sidious > Dooku surviving some time against a Yoda holding back.
Dnt forget until submerged in Vapaad, Mace was being forced back the entire time, so he basically was just surviving, whilst even though Yoda was holding back(to an extent) Dooku was giving good enough competition, good enough to exhaust Yoda and leave Yoda thinking he doesnt need to practice sparring for a Long time.
So no I dnt believe Mace(before submerging into Vapaad) did better against Sidious than Dooku did against Yoda.
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Prove that it's due to his Shatterpoint ability and not pure power. He simply crushed Grievous- there's nothing to indicate it was due to some sort of special use of the force.
One of the first pages of Shatterpoint states Mace as being able to smash a crystal which is harder than Durasteel using his Shatterpoint ability. So im afraid your the one wholl need to provide the proof that he can do it without Shatterpoint and just using he Force and Physical Strength.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Mace only saber fought Greivous when he was wielding 2 sabers. Dooku on the other hand sparred with Greivous constantly to train him to be the perfect jedi killer. so of course he fought him at his full potential. saying he didnt is complete speculation. If anything it was Dooku holding back!
and we saw in the CW cartoons Dooku EASILY handling Greivous with 2 sabers, therfore its only logical to assume that when Dooku was "Hard Pressed" to handle GG at times it was when GG was fighting with 4 sabers at full potential.
NOT THE EVIL, NON-CANONICAL CARTOON!
Jesus effin' Christ. There exists no textual evidence that proves that Dooku sparred with Grievous while the latter went all-out; when Grievous was bloodlusted against Mace, Mace attacked him and forced him on the defensive. If we go by the CW Cartoon, Dooku didn't manage to launch a single solid saber attack within the entirety of the duel.
And nothing refutes the Clone War's canonicity. Sorry, your observations, as intelligent as they are, don't overwrite canon. Don't you think I'd be happy to declare all post-RotJ Sith non-canonical because Anakin was supposed to bring balance to the force? Yeah, SW is full of inconsistencies. Deal with it.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Dnt forget until submerged in Vapaad, Mace was being forced back the entire time, so he basically was just surviving, whilst even though Yoda was holding back(to an extent) Dooku was giving good enough competition, good enough to exhaust Yoda and leave Yoda thinking he doesnt need to practice sparring for a Long time.So no I dnt believe Mace(before submerging into Vapaad) did better against Sidious than Dooku did against Yoda.
He survived nicely, just like Dooku- the fact that basically makes his feat superior is the fact that Palpatine is a newly-unleashed Sith Lord, who happens to be bloodlusted, didn't overpower Mace fast enough. Yoda? He's a calm, reserved Jedi Master who was fighting his beloved apprentice and was holding back.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
One of the first pages of Shatterpoint states Mace as being able to smash a crystal which is harder than Durasteel using his Shatterpoint ability. So im afraid your the one wholl need to provide the proof that he can do it without Shatterpoint and just using he Force and Physical Strength.
No, I don't. You made the claim, you prove it. Nothing within either the text or the actual visual evidence suggests that it had anything to do with his Shatterpoint ability. If it's not mentioned, we have to assume that he accomplished this feat without the Shatterpoint ability.
You know what's ridiculous? treating Mace's Vapaad like its a special ability. Saying "he can't block sidious's strokes until he had sank into vapaad" is the same as saying "Yoda was unable to block dooku's attacks until he had raised his saber"
Vapaad was his lightsaber FORM. It was how he fought with his LIGHTSABER. We have NO SOURCE that says its takes any certain time to sink into Vapaad. In fact, considered vapaad is a lightsaber FORM, the very first stroke of a the blade puts Mace "into vapaad"
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
If we go by the CW Cartoon, Dooku didn't manage to launch a single solid saber attack within the entirety of the duel.
Oh please.. he easily handled GG's barrage easily, while lecturing him throughout the fight, and easily disarming him. There was no contest there.
and of course GG went all out in his sparring sessions. the CW cartoon made that perfectly clear. hed try his best to defeat Dooku in the saber fight, but Dooku handled it easy. i mean he wasnt teaching kids boxing sparring u know.. he was teaching GG to KILL Jedis!! and still admitted GG culdnt beat the best of the Jedis, whilst Dooku himself believed hed have a shot at any Jedi.
I mean does anyone here actually believe GG would even have a chacne against Dooku in a Saber fight???
If you want to beleive that GG always went easy on Dooku, then you believe that, but its COMPLETE speculation on your part.
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
No, I don't. You made the claim, you prove it. Nothing within either the text or the actual visual evidence suggests that it had anything to do with his Shatterpoint ability. If it's not mentioned, we have to assume that he accomplished this feat without the Shatterpoint ability.
"Imagine a Corusca gem: a mineral whose interlocking crystalline structure makes it HARDER THAN DURASTEEL. You can strile one with a five-kilo hammer and do no more than dent the hammer's face. Yet the same crystalline structure that gives the Corusca strength also give it shatterpoints: spots where a precise application of carefully measured force-NO MORE THAN A GENTLE TAP- WILL BREAK IT INTO PIECES. But to find these shatterpoints, to use them to shape the Corusca gem into beauty and utility, requires years of study, an intimate understanding of the crystal structure, and rigorous practice to train the hand in the perfect combination of strength and precision to produce the desired cut.
UNLESS YOU HAVE A TALENT LIKE MINE.
I CAN SEE SHATTERPOINTS..............
...........
Put Simply: WHEN I LOOK AT YOU THROUGH THE FORCE, I CAN SEE WHERE YOU BREAK"
So when Mace looked at Greivous he could see where he breaks. and Force crushed him there.
when he sees the droids hes fighting, again he can see where they break, and all it takes is a gentle tap to break them.
If thats not proof that Mace punches through Durasteel using his Shatterpoint ability(something that weve never even witnessed Yoda or Sidious doing) then I dnt know what is!
Otherwise if you just want to believe that Mace does that by his own Raw Force Power, and therfore Mace has more Raw Strength in the Force than weve seen ever shown by even Yoda or Sidious, then fine you believe that. but AGAIN its complete speculation on you part.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Oh please.. he easily handled GG's barrage easily, while lecturing him throughout the fight, and easily disarming him. There was no contest there.and of course GG went all out in his sparring sessions. the CW cartoon made that perfectly clear. hed try his best to defeat Dooku in the saber fight, but Dooku handled it easy. i mean he wasnt teaching kids boxing sparring u know.. he was teaching GG to KILL Jedis!! and still admitted GG culdnt beat the best of the Jedis, whilst Dooku himself believed hed have a shot at any Jedi.
I mean does anyone here actually believe GG would even have a chacne against Dooku in a Saber fight???
If you want to beleive that GG always went easy on Dooku, then you believe that, but its COMPLETE speculation on your part.
"Imagine a Corusca gem: a mineral whose interlocking crystalline structure makes it HARDER THAN DURASTEEL. You can strile one with a five-kilo hammer and do no more than dent the hammer's face. Yet the same crystalline structure that gives the Corusca strength also give it shatterpoints: spots where a precise application of carefully measured force-NO MORE THAN A GENTLE TAP- WILL BREAK IT INTO PIECES. But to find these shatterpoints, to use them to shape the Corusca gem into beauty and utility, requires years of study, an intimate understanding of the crystal structure, and rigorous practice to train the hand in the perfect combination of strength and precision to produce the desired cut.
UNLESS YOU HAVE A TALENT LIKE MINE.
I CAN SEE SHATTERPOINTS..............
...........Put Simply: WHEN I LOOK AT YOU THROUGH THE FORCE, I CAN SEE WHERE YOU BREAK"
So when Mace looked at Greivous he could see where he breaks. and Force crushed him there.
when he sees the droids hes fighting, again he can see where they break, and all it takes is a gentle tap to break them.
If thats not proof that Mace punches through Durasteel using his Shatterpoint ability(something that weve never even witnessed Yoda or Sidious doing) then I dnt know what is!
Otherwise if you just want to believe that Mace does that by his own Raw Force Power, and therfore Mace has more Raw Strength in the Force than weve seen ever shown by even Yoda or Sidious, then fine you believe that. but AGAIN its complete speculation on you part.
if he did use shatterpoint... what difference does it make?he still did it, and he could do it again... and to argue that Mace used shatterpoint on grievous is the complete opposite of your post: He didn't tap grievous he crushed him. You don't crush something in shatterpoint. You tap something, that's made clear from many sources.
Originally posted by truejedi
You know what's ridiculous? treating Mace's Vapaad like its a special ability. Saying "he can't block sidious's strokes until he had sank into vapaad" is the same as saying "Yoda was unable to block dooku's attacks until he had raised his saber"
Vapaad was his lightsaber FORM. It was how he fought with his LIGHTSABER. We have NO SOURCE that says its takes any certain time to sink into Vapaad. In fact, considered vapaad is a lightsaber FORM, the very first stroke of a the blade puts Mace "into vapaad"
We mean Vapaad's "Superconducting loop" which made Mace as fast as Sidious. but only temporarily while he was fighting Sidious. Hes not that fast when fighting anyone else. He wuldnt be that fast while fighitng Anakin or Dooku. So thats why we differentiate between how Mace was fighting Sidious before and after Vapaad formed a "Super-Conducting loop" between them making Mace temporarily as fast as Sidious.