Originally posted by Faunus
1) Since when do Jedi understand every language spoken?2) How is understanding a language remotely similar to forcibly implanting it in its entirety into someone's mind?
Bit of miscommunication. Jedi tend to use the Force to translate for them with other languages.
We've seen it in Shatterpoint, Tales of the Jedi off the top of my head and others.
Granted it's different than forcibly implanting in one's head
Originally posted by FaunusAlright, thats fine.
I'm not hostile when you're not being an idiot, as I thought I'd made clear in the past. Throwing in "zeh great gideon," "gideon sez," and "from gideon:" in every other post is obnoxious and pathetic. We get it, you respect him, you think he's awesome and knowledgeable, etc. He is. Now get over him.We've had great discussions, and I have nothing against you personally. But quite frankly, this is getting on my nerves. Coupled with the vehement and unbelievably stupid anti-Bane and anti-Sidious bitching going on, plus Dark Serpent posting in as massive font as possible just to be a dick, I get annoyed pretty quickly here.
But honestly i don't remember you telling me saying "zeh great gideon" is obnoxious, i think it was blax who said that.
Originally posted by Gideon
I do understand you and I enjoy your backhanded concessions. Like DarkSerpent, it just warms my heart when you criticise me or accuse of me of sophistry (suggesting that you're somehow in a position to judge me) and then concede the point in every argument we ever engage in.
If you'd like me to be more difficult, I'm sure that can be arranged as well.
He doesn't rule the galaxy twice. For you to suggest that he does is for you to mislead the people who take your opinions as gospel (Ivalice comes to mind).
"If you'd like for me to be more difficult..." lol. And they accuse me of egotism? You state that as though I'm threatened by it. You accuse me of sophistry and being a fanboy on a regular basis, yet you concede every argument we've ever had. LOL, and you expect me to believe that it's you "just going easy"?
That's why you're on ignore, my friend. If you're going to concede every argument, you're not really in a position to criticise me, now are you?
Originally posted by LightsnakeDo you have a quote? I'm not recalling anything, especially from Shatterpoint. We have Kar Vastor speaking through the Force, although that's a personal thing.
Bit of miscommunication. Jedi tend to use the Force to translate for them with other languages.We've seen it in Shatterpoint, Tales of the Jedi off the top of my head and others.
Granted it's different than forcibly implanting in one's head
Originally posted by EnyalusIvalice? Whos ivalice? Its "Big S" now, the way you address me 😉
If you'd like me to be more difficult, I'm sure that can be arranged as well.He doesn't rule the galaxy twice. For you to suggest that he does is for you to mislead the people who take your opinions as gospel (Ivalice comes to mind).
Originally posted by Gideon
For the record, I just checked, and no one's head is in my ass.
That doesn't necessarily indicate someone wasn't hiding up there before. And I wonder how you even figured that out in the first place...
As far as Great Vengeance's point is concerned, Advent, please enlighten those of us (such as myself) who are either too stupid to comprehend or too blind to see.
So those are the only two options if you don't understand? *sighs*, his argument is simple: if the narration is limited to the perspective of the character(s) in the sources, then the quotes could be declared invalid. I'm not saying he's right on all accounts or that Sidious isn't the most powerful, only that he has a point. You would have to review the sources itself to determine whether they are actually omniscient or third-person omniscient.
I'm sure some might be from an all-knowing perspective; although, in the case that some aren't, then it raises a question as to how recent the ones that are really are.
Originally posted by Faunus
Do you have a quote? I'm not recalling anything, especially from Shatterpoint. We have Kar Vastor speaking through the Force, although that's a personal thing.
I'll give a look later. Perhaps I'm off on Shatterpoint, though, but I could have sworn Vastor speaks in snarls and growls and it 'translates' via the Force as all of the Koruunai are Force sensitives anyways. Thon, however, I know speaks in a series of growls and snarls and the Force 'translates'...I'm pretty sure it's that way for Odan-Urr too.
And Advent is right on one end: We should examine narration, but as a matter of perspective...if it's the omniscient narrator or from a character's POV
Originally posted by Advent
That doesn't necessarily indicate someone wasn't hiding up there before. And I wonder how you even figured that out in the first place...So those are the only two options if you don't understand? *sighs*, his argument is simple: if the narration is limited to the perspective of the character(s) in the sources, then the quotes could be declared invalid. I'm not saying he's right on all accounts or that Sidious isn't the most powerful, only that he has a point. You would have to review the sources itself to determine whether they are actually omniscient or third-person omniscient.
I'm sure some might be from an all-knowing perspective; although, in the case that some aren't, then it raises a question as to how recent the ones that are really are.
While I haven't read Death Start myself, I'm pretty sure it's the purely omniscient narrator from what I've been told.
And the ROTS novel...Stover is ALWAYS using the purely omnipotent narrator no matter what he writes
Originally posted by Gideon
"If you'd like for me to be more difficult..." lol. And they accuse me of egotism? You state that as though I'm threatened by it.
Right. Because I think low enough of you to think you'd be somehow scared off by such a thing.
You accuse me of sophistry and being a fanboy on a regular basis, yet you concede every argument we've ever had.
Non sequitur, anyone? Because one is relevant to the other why? And for the record, you must indeed be quite egotistical to think I've conceded every argument we've had.
LOL, and you expect me to believe that it's you "just going easy"?
Because I'd think that it matters what you'd think, why?
That's why you're on ignore, my friend. If you're going to concede every argument, you're not really in a position to criticise me, now are you?
Because it's such a punishment to be on Gideon's ignore list, as though it hurts my pride or makes me less intelligent or less respectable to other KMC members. Truly, I could care less and you should've gotten that picture by now if you were able to think dynamically and creatively, instead of spitting sources verbatim like a parrot.
As for the criticism, I've disagreed with your position on a great many things. Your stance that DE Sidious could destroy four PT era Council members is ridiculous. And your 'sophistry' is a fact, not really a criticism. You seem to like flaunting it, so me actually calling you on it shouldn't come as a surprise. You simply don't need it - it was constructive criticism if anything.
That's about the extent of that.
Originally posted by LightsnakeCompletely different on Vastor's part. He is essentially a manifestation of the raw power of the Force that is inherent in the jungle, and as such he is simply incapable of human speech. When he is "talking" to an individual, only the subject of his attention understands what he's "saying." Everyone else hears snarls and barks. It's a form of telepathy more than anything.
I'll give a look later. Perhaps I'm off on Shatterpoint, though, but I could have sworn Vastor speaks in snarls and growls and it 'translates' via the Force as all of the Koruunai are Force sensitives anyways. Thon, however, I know speaks in a series of growls and snarls and the Force 'translates'...I'm pretty sure it's that way for Odan-Urr too.
And Advent is right on one end: We should examine narration, but as a matter of perspective...if it's the omniscient narrator or from a character's POVThe Death Star line is third-person - immediately after stating Palpatine to be the most powerful Sith Lord who ever lived, it says "... As Vader would be, someday." That particular segment is from his perspective.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
He couldn't see Malak open fire on him and he had defeats.
So what you would expect him to focus upon?
A) Malak, who was stationed on a different ship.
B) The Jedi Strike Team, which was standing near him.
Revan' exceptional precognitive capabilities were indeed put to test when he faced the greatest known Echani warrior - Yusanis in single combat and defeated him.
Also, keep in mind that distraction and betrayal has caused demise of many notable figures and the list includes Darth Sidious.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
We know he's powerful. And? At his best, he's still canonically weaker than Yoda
Yoda is believed to be second most powerful Jedi, who managed to stalemate the most powerful Sith Lord in history in single combat. However, Yoda' status as 2nd most powerful Jedi is also a contested issue.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
He slaughtered the Ssith Academy? Canon proof?
Originally posted by Lightsnake
this means...what, exactly? Quotes like this are great, but I can match them with plenty Palp quotes
Originally posted by Lightsnake
'Unprecedented?' This isn't hard for Force users
Originally posted by Lightsnake
They're ancient rituals, not 'techniques.' Revan would know how to use them, sure, but it's not something you pull off in combat
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Nobody ever denied Revan' powerful.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
He is, however, canonically weaker than Yoda according to the ROTS novelization-Revan as a Jedi>Revan as a Sith Lord and Yoda is the canonically most powerful Jedi
I don't understand why the 'Revan > Sidious' argument is still going on. I mean, JESUS, it's pretty much canonical fact that Sidious is more powerful than him. Not only that, he's actually smarter and more resourceful, displaying tactics in personal combat that, as far as we know, is beyond Revan's capacity, such as being able to defeat Yoda despite being locked in a potentially eternal stalemate with him.
According to the omniscent narrator of the RotS novel, Yoda is the 'most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known'. Sidious, by RotS, is Yoda's equal in power- by RotJ and DE he surpasses Yoda considerably. Conclusion? Sidious, as of RotS, is more powerful than Revan. As of RotJ, he's even more powerful than Revan. By DE, he will be able to nigh-curbstomp Revan.
Yeah, Sidious is more powerful than Revan. Now, I know power =/= win, but really, Revan, as far is we know, doesn't possess an uber (read: bullshit) artifact (orbalisks, amulets), and doesn't have an uncanny talent for tactics in personal combat (warfare tactics aren't personal combat tactics). Revan's saber skills are utterly unknown. Therefore, Sidious would logically lay the smack on Revan in combat.
If Bane was so powerful than why was he hesitant to unleash all the knowledge that Revan possessed?
POD Bane was hesitant to unleash some of Revans techniques, but ROT has a decade more training and experience as well as a power-boost.
And just because Revan knew them doesn't mean that he wasn't scared to used them too. She could have been shit scared of them.
Also do you think that Bane can over-power Revan through Force Lightning? Thats a wishful thinking. Keep in mind that Revan can unleash his Force Lightning Storm on him and this dark side technique is indeed the Force Lightning in its highest degree. (Source: KOTOR)
Again, you are technically correct, but only in that Revan knows a more advanced version of FL that is generally more potent. But Bane has mastered FL to a silly degree, he can disintergrate people with it. For all we know Revan might have been able to use it but not very well. Think of it as a game: who are you more afraid of , the guy with Adv. Fireball at level 1 or the gur with Reg. Fireball at level 200.
Let me remind you once again that mainly through knowledge and wisdom imparted by Revan, did Bane managed to change the future of the Sith and became one of the most powerful Sith Lords in the history of Star Wars. In other-words, Revan indirectly helped the Sith to get back on their feet once again after a long time.
Philosophy has no bearing on a fight (unless your Gandi).
The Rebels were turning out to be more troublesome than many had expected. The Emperor had known it would be thus, of course; the resistance had not been a surprise to him. The Emperor was completely in concert with the dark side of the Force. He was the most powerful Sith to have ever existed.
This quote was told from darth vaders perspective and therefor should be made invalid as a third-person opinion.
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
I don't understand why the 'Revan > Sidious' argument is still going on. I mean, JESUS, it's pretty much canonical fact that Sidious is more powerful than him. Not only that, he's actually smarter and more resourceful, displaying tactics in personal combat that, as far as we know, is beyond Revan's capacity, such as being able to defeat Yoda despite being locked in a potentially eternal stalemate with him.
Master Crimzon, how has Sidious display that he is smarter and more resourceful in personal combat beyond that of Revan?
1. How is a stalemate a win? Sidious survive because of the environment and time was on his side.
The only two exceptional people that Sidious fought definitely do not show Sidious as there superior (Mace and Yoda). As of ROTS Sidious cannot claim the title of most powerful or greatest force user of his era.
Sidious tactics would not have enable him to survive in the Kotor era. Killing his master in his sleep would not have gain the respect of any of his peers.
Originally posted by Darth Exodus
POD Bane was hesitant to unleash some of Revans techniques, but ROT has a decade more training and experience as well as a power-boost.
Also, what kind of other techniques that Revan knew, did Bane unleashed in ROT?
Originally posted by Darth Exodus
And just because Revan knew them doesn't mean that he wasn't scared to used them too. She could have been shit scared of them.
Also, Revan is "he" and nor "she." Seems to me that you defy canon more often than expected.
Originally posted by Darth Exodus
Again, you are technically correct, but only in that Revan knows a more advanced version of FL that is generally more potent. But Bane has mastered FL to a silly degree, he can disintergrate people with it. For all we know Revan might have been able to use it but not very well. Think of it as a game: who are you more afraid of , the guy with Adv. Fireball at level 1 or the gur with Reg. Fireball at level 200.
Originally posted by Darth Exodus
Philosophy has no bearing on a fight (unless your Gandi).
Round 1
1) Personally I think Dooku my take it, even though I don't think it will not be easy for him (after all malak killed 2 jedi knights quite easily with the force in the star forge).
2) I am giving this to kun, not due to his amulets balts but because his sheer power in the force, who was described as immense.
3) I don't know, maybe zannah? This is a tough one, personally I am seeing zannah with more to say in the force departmend then maul. However maul can't be a weak force user in order to be handpicked by sidious. Besides maul already killed a man with force choke in shadow hunter, so he also knows how to use the force in order to kill.
4) I am with Vader on this one.
5) Caedus of course even though I don't particullary like him
6) Tough one. Both were created by the same person, both seems quite powerful. Personally I see the contest as quite even. Bane showed quite some power with force lightning or even in his force wave against kasim for example, but Revan also showed quite some amazing power when he killed the rakata's scouts and their rancor beats with what it seems force storm (described by the one) or when he force choked to death an officer of his ship in something like 3 seconds (one of the fastest force choked deaths of the star wars universe), during the jedi knight's team attack. Maybe Revan, just due to the fact that Bane seems to pretty much worship his force knowledge.
7) I am with Sidious on this one. I don't think Luke was really on sidious' level in DE, at least in the force department. Close perhaps, but still weaker in my opinion, and with less offensive force attacks. Also I don't think ROTS sidious is that much different from the DE one even though many people here thinks that way so...
8) Sadow
Round 2
1) Maybe kun, maybe dooku, it's really hard to say. Maybe kun
2) Vader
3) Very hard to say. I think that between Revan, Bane or Caedus, any of them are quite capable in the force department.
4) Sidious obviously
Round 3
Well, the stronger is Sidious, however all the other foes are very powerfull as well. However, I am seeing Sidious masterminding his foes fighting each other and then he finishes off the one who remains.
How much power boost did he get?
At the end of POD Bane was able to liquidise bone etc with a force push, by the end of ROT he could disintergrate metal and man with ease.
The orbalisks gave him a significant darkside power boost alongside adrenaline (strength and speed) as well.
This is a bad assumption. Revan learned such deadly techniques for a reason. Now if he would be hesitant to use them, than why would he waste time to learn them in the first place?
Knowledge is power. Revan might not have been able to use them yet(he doesn't ever seem too) but one day he might be able too. Plus you have to remember that Revan was seeking to create a Sith dynasty, the more knowledge of the ancients that the Sith possess, the stronger they will become. Revan believed in passing down knowledge to her apprentices, like Bane.
Also, Revan is "he" and nor "she." Seems to me that you defy canon more often than expected
Yeah, it ain't easy, but that just proves how great I am 😎
Dude! "Force Lightning" at ridiculous levels take the form of "Force Lightning Storm" and does lots of damage. Revan mastered this technique and his Lightning will also do serious damage. You are once again making a stupid assumption that Revan might not be able to use Force Lightning very well. Do not forget that it was he who taught Bane how to make Force Lightning more potent.
For a start, Bane's lightning was compared to a storm way before his lehon training. And while its true that Revans lightning was probably very powerful, it isn't alright to just assume that its as good as Banes, which can vaporise people, without any proof.
Untill you have some, Bane will> Revan on the lightning front.
This shows that you can't grasp the bigger picture of the scenario or you don't want to. Revan' knowledge actually paved the way for the Sith to rise once again. Hence, you should accept this fact and move on. In other-words, only a Sith Lord with great potential and strong affinity with the Force would be able to do what Revan could do and become very powerful like him.
What? So, only a 'Sith Lord with great potential and a strong affinity to the force' can understand the Rule of Two?
Condescending answer: Why yes, you know, I've been having some trouble with it myself, I wish Malak could come over and explain it to me.
Again, a philosophy (ROT) has no bearing on a fight, passivism excluded.