Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
EDIT.I just observed the SK vs vader fight again, vader only got beaten down when he hurled away the massive pillar that SK threw at him and was immediately hit with a massive force blast that resulted him losing balance and then getting smashed with 3 pillars which damaged him greatly, still he shrugged off that attack(possibly throwing those pillars away, why would SK remove them if he wants to kill vader?) and then got a chop to the face, pushed into some shield generator and then slammed through a wall.
Well, yes. But that's how all-out fights work. I'd still believe that in an all-out fight Marek would probably defeat Vader again.
Canon has shown that Starkiller increased in mastery by a significant amount between his battle with Shaak Ti and his battle with Vader. Clarity has nothing to do with it. Moreover, PROXY's narration is suspect -- while he does state that "no one" could hold Starkiller, I will remind you that he is not the only narrator of the comic; Juno Eclipse takes over the rest after the events that left PROXY deactivated by Vader's hand. Having never seen the Emperor or Vader fight before, truly, it's not something that can be used.
I know you weren't implying as much, Enyalus, but you can't even use that as an example. That Vader challenged a more potent Starkiller is remarkable. Nothing suggests that Shaak Ti would be able to defeat him.
Originally posted by Gideon
Canon has shown that Starkiller increased in mastery by a significant amount between his battle with Shaak Ti and his battle with Vader. Clarity has nothing to do with it. Moreover, PROXY's narration is suspect -- while he does state that "no one" could hold Starkiller, I will remind you that he is not the only narrator of the comic; Juno Eclipse takes over the rest after the events that left PROXY deactivated by Vader's hand. Having never seen the Emperor or Vader fight before, truly, it's not something that can be used.I know you weren't implying as much, Enyalus, but you can't even use that as an example. That Vader challenged a more potent Starkiller is remarkable. Nothing suggests that Shaak Ti would be able to defeat him.
does he increase in anything other than feats? or game points, (whatever the system for advancement is there)
Because his increasing in feats truly means nothing. Just because someone doesn't do something before a certain time doesn't mean they aren't capable of it. That's like saying Darth Vader is incapable of throwing things at Obi-Wan during their fight on Mustafar, because he doesn't throw things at anyone until RODV.
Wow, Vader would destroy Shaak Ti, even on Felucia. What you fail to realize is that Shaak Ti had been on Felucia for over a decade. It wans't like she landed on the pplanet and suddenly it was all light and good. she took control of it over a matter of YEARS. Secondly, Vader would curbstomp Felucians. They are a non-factor. Shaak Ti with the sarlaac is dangerous, but Vader can still win, with relative ease. Shaak Ti would not be able to use the sarlaac against Vader because if she stops for half a second, he will snap her neck. Seriously, Vader is MCUH stronger than her.
Originally posted by Gideon
I know you weren't implying as much, Enyalus, but you can't even use that as an example. That Vader challenged a more potent Starkiller is remarkable. Nothing suggests that Shaak Ti would be able to defeat him.
I think we agree, if I'm understanding you.
My opinion:
1) Shaak Ti could defeat the Starkiller who she lost to on Felucia.
2) Shaak Ti could not defeat Starkiller at his prime.
3) Shaak Ti, however, could defeat Darth Vader.
You were implying the first two, right?
Originally posted by EnyalusUh, that wouldn't be a reason why he beat Shaak Ti. That'd be an excuse if he lost to her.
Let's see: I say she had her back turned and lightsaber put away. In the scan, she has her lightsaber off even when stabbed in the chest, and her back was turned to Starkiller. How is that proving me wrong? Furthermore, the narration is by PROXY - not an objective viewer and not even at the battle. He says, "no one could [hold him]." Does "no one" now include Emperor Palpatine? Are you saying Galen is more powerful than the Emperor now? PROXY seems to think so, afterall. PROXY = canon?
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Look at the starkiller duel vs shaak ti duel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6JsMpa61Zs
He OVERPOWERS her towards the end of the duel and when she got up with her saber "deacivated" she refused to fight because she knows she has been BEATEN.
So no, he didn't lose that duel.
Originally posted by EnyalusNuh uh. Just see the above.Yup. Taken care of.[/B]
Originally posted by EnyalusLets say this is on the executor, death star, or any other dark side world like korriban or Vjun.Prove it.[/B]
Does shaak ti have flora, fauna and countless creatures at her disposal at such planets? You yourself said this "
The planet is specifically stated as being 'under her control.'.
On any other world strong in the dark side(vjun, malachor, korriban), the planet wouldn't be under her control.
Originally posted by EnyalusYeah, but that wouldn't be 80%, that would be 400%, Big S.
Um no, 8 + 2 = 10. So we have 10 people total, 8 out of 10 are asians and 2 are white. 80% are asian, and 20% are white.
O misinterpreted it earlier, sorry.
Originally posted by EnyalusRight and that means shaak ti > sidious to.In my opinion, yup.
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Originally posted by EnyalusIt IS obvious despite his constant ramblings of how shaak ti doesn't understand vader.You're the one who initially said he wasn't crystal clear against Shaak Ti. That's not obvious. Burden of proof is on you.
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Besides, i don't have to prove a negative. It is mizu's duty to prove that he was in a state of clarity.
Besides what does it matter? The novel stated that starkillers powers and mastery had increased significantly between his duel with shaak ti so therefore vader fought a much more powerful galen.
Originally posted by EnyalusNever read the comic again? Or actually played the game? Starkiller DID tool sidious(this actually backs your point, that he is not infallible 😉 )Also - come on now. He didn't tool Sidious. Sidious had loads more power than him and the only way he was able to hold back Sidious' lightning was by becoming an avatar of the Force (something that seemingly no one can do on command, IE a fluke).
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This portion of the comic was in the eyes of juno, whereas the game... is canon.
Originally posted by EnyalusAnd just how potent is the dark side there? Last i recall SK couldn't even get a simply boost.Bend an entire Dark Side rich planet to her will?
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Originally posted by EnyalusRight, so it means she would "annihilate" vader on any given day on any setting.She was a Jedi Master and Council member. Not to mention a Consular (specifically trained to use the Force over a lightsaber). Her Force powers didn't suck.[/B]
Originally posted by EnyalusThe planet IS under her control, considering that she has flora and fauna at her disposal, but again HOW does that stop from vader actually using the environment against her?The planet is specifically stated as being 'under her control.' If you want to say otherwise - again, burden of proof is on you. Shaak Ti is one of the greatest bladebeings of the Order with a powerful command and knowledge of the Force. I think he'd have his hands full keeping himself alive.[/B]
Are you saying that he is so weak against shaak ti that he wouldn't even be able to force lift a rock and hurl it at her?
Once again, i have asked and that idiot mizukage yoda evaded the question. What in-f-u-c-k-i-n-g-s name has shaak ti done to be superior to vader? What force feat?(im targeting the insult to him, not you so chill).
Originally posted by Enyaluswadeva, SK was lucky anyways, but vader fought a more potent SK than shaak ti.Nah. I'd say he got lucky. Vader tossed the pillars aside and immediately gets blown back by Galen's Force Wave. The battle would've been very tight if that hadn't happened. Then again, I sip the Haterade. 😉 [/B]
@ Now to the idiot mizukage yoda.
First off, READ THE DAMN POST PROPERLY, you have evaded my questions time and again you moron
Originally posted by Mizukage YodaWhich means what exactly?
Don't take my quotes out of context I said his robes were torn and he was obviously exhausted.
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Originally posted by Mizukage YodaAlready taken care of, when i debated with enyalus.
Second. You fail to see that this is narrated by PROXY a loyal servant to Starkiller, his descriptions don't count, he was damaged. This is why the Kazdan Paratus incident wasn't in the comic most likely because Proxy had no memory of the incident.
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Originally posted by Mizukage YodaIts not that i can't, its that i don't have to prove a negative.
Where is it stated that he was not in CRYSTAL CLEAR STATE. Tell me please I want to know where this is stated. Right you can't.
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In fact, if anything, [b]you should prove that he was in a state of clarity, not me seeing that i don't have to prove negatives.
Thats like asking me to prove that exar kuns amulet blast is not instant. A negative do you understand? A debate does not work this way.
Besides the novel clearly stated that vader fought a significantly far more potent starkiller than shaak ti.
Now prove up or shut the hell up which you have yet to do eiter.
Originally posted by Mizukage YodaIt still was "dangerously close to the dark side".
And on the contrary it is stated clearly that when she died the planet "Fell into Darkness" meaning it was not in darkness when she was alive.
If you actually paid any attention to the dialogue, bail stated that after shaak ti's death, the planet was "nearly lost to the dark side" meaning that even with shaak ti around, the planet was already sliding closer and closer to the dark side.
Originally posted by Mizukage YodaSee the word seemingly you idiot, i never said vader was uninjured, i said [b]seemingly.
Vader got up seemingly uninjured???Really is that why Starkiller manhandled him in a duel in five seconds flat?????
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Hell i already made it cleat that vader DID get injured, LEARN TO READ moron.
SK collapsed three massive pillars on vader, and that wasn't enough to kill him, hell he immediately gets on his feet prepared to duel SK, but of course [b]like i said earlier, the injuries caused him some damage which hindered his skills.
^ Now shut the **** up and read.
Originally posted by Mizukage YodaThe comic depicted him dueling proxy moron, learn to read and open your damn eyes.
The Game canon and the Novel>Comic. The Comic also never depicts PROXY dueling with Galen, or the Darth Maul part.
Obviously not everything was shown in the comic, but that doesn't mean its not canon.
Besides certain events are WITNESSED from the eye, meaning that it still has merit and CAN be used in a debate.
Originally posted by Mizukage YodaOf course i can because your mother should have aborted you when she had the chance.
And do you have any proof that Vader could have lifted those three pillars, of coarse not because you are using retarded supposition.
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Vader grabbed a massive pillar and hurled it at SK, SK then grabs it and throws it back at him, only that vader easily deflected it before getting hit by a force wave.
If he could easily throw one massive pillar, i don't see why he can't lift three.
And in ROTS game cutscene, he lifts up a MASSIVE temple statue that is far larger and more massive than those 3 pillars combined and he did it when his force mastery was inferior to his OT incarnation.
Translation, your miserable attempts to make vader look weak are futile.
This is another thing i would had never needed to prove had you actually had half a brain and some common sense, vader easily lifts one pillar so i don't see why he can't lift three ,and the novel stated that vader created a telekinetic storm hurling everything at SK, only to miss him of course.
Originally posted by Mizukage YodaBad logic. The suit of armor isn't some almightly plating that shields him from everything, hell the entire armor isn't like that, or he wouldn't even be able to move at all.
And the fact that the three pillars didn't kill him is because he is wearing a suit of armor.
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Vaders body armor is durable, meaning it isn't some super plated armor shit like those medieval knights.
And therefore it wouldn't shield him much from massive objects hitting him.
Originally posted by Mizukage YodaWhich is a further testament to his power 😄 😄 😄 😄 😄
He also withstood a blow to the head from a fricken lightsaber.
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Originally posted by Mizukage YodaIt is you who is too stupid to realise that nothing suggested that he let starkiller humiliate him.
And of coarse he put Palps on his ass, Palps wasn't really dueling him, This is the Dark Lord of the Sith who whiped the floor with three Jedi Masters almost instantly. It is you who fails to analyze that Palaptine was goading him into becoming his apprentice, and giving in to his anger, as he did to Luke on the Second Death Star.
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Originally posted by Mizukage YodaRapes kota with what? His deformed dick?
Notice how while the Emperor was "On his ass" he springs up, and rapes General Kota with [/B]
You just fail to realise that he sprung up because he is extremely powerful, as is vader who got up minutes after being battered by Sk.
Now shut the **** up.
Originally posted by Enyalus
I think we agree, if I'm understanding you.My opinion:
1) Shaak Ti could defeat the Starkiller who she lost to on Felucia.
2) Shaak Ti could not defeat Starkiller at his prime.
3) Shaak Ti, however, could defeat Darth Vader.You were implying the first two, right?
That is correct. But I find your third point, pardon me, ridiculous. A beaten, broken Vader managed to withstand a super-mega-****ing explosion of Palpatine's Force energies repulsed by Galen "I-am-one-with-the-Force" Marek. Shaak Ti dominated a weaker Starkiller according to the novelization; Vader would pimpsmack Starkiller twice via the Force and would challenge him in lightsaber combat and in a Force contest and collapse a massive hut on Kashyyyk which was as durable as metal.
The idea that Ti could even challenge Vader is somewhat preposterous. Perhaps and only perhaps with the power of Felucia behind her, but on a neutral setting? He'd convert to
Catholicism and molest her accordingly.
Schwartz, Starkiller did not tool the Emperor. The comic and book both support the idea that Palpatine was merely baiting Starkiller to convert to the dark side. Did he beat him? Sure. But nothing suggests Palpatine was fighting his hardest -- especially when one considers that even the game depicts him goading Starkiller even upon his defeat. And when Starkiller rejects him, Palpatine springs up like nothing happened and even moves to kill Kota first.
Originally posted by GideonI'll concede this.
Schwartz, Starkiller did not tool the Emperor. The comic and book both support the idea that Palpatine was merely baiting Starkiller to convert to the dark side. Did he beat him? Sure. But nothing suggests Palpatine was fighting his hardest -- especially when one considers that even the game depicts him goading Starkiller even upon his defeat. And when Starkiller rejects him, Palpatine springs up like nothing happened and even moves to kill Kota first.
But yea your right, he did stand up like nothing happened. The same way vader stood up after getting crushed by three pillars and standing up minutes after he got defeated.
Its funny how he stands there doing nothing while starkiller was trying to grab palpatine.
Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
And in ROTS game cutscene, he lifts up a MASSIVE temple statue that is far larger and more massive than those 3 pillars combined and he did it when his force mastery was inferior to his OT incarnation.[/B]
Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
Its funny how he stands there doing nothing while starkiller was trying to grab palpatine.
Yeah, I LOL'd. And when the stormtroopers hauled ass and ran past them. Honestly, I think they just knew better. Kind've like "Yeah... we don't need to get in the middle of this."
Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
Look at the starkiller duel vs shaak ti duelhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6JsMpa61Zs
He OVERPOWERS her towards the end of the duel and when she got up with her saber "deacivated" she refused to fight because she knows she has been BEATEN.
So no, he didn't lose that duel.
Woah, you know how badly that contradicts the comics and novel? Plus, it's gameplay mechanics. You hit the wrong button (since it's that stupid 'Press displayed button' boss fight) and the fight doesn't turn out like that.
Right and that means shaak ti > sidious to.
Nope. I said Vader's TK > Sidious' TK. Just because Shaak Ti can beat Vader doesn't mean she suddenly has superior telekinetic powers.
Besides what does it matter? The novel stated that starkillers powers and mastery had increased significantly between his duel with shaak ti so therefore vader fought a much more powerful galen.
And lost. Just like he lost to a Tuskan Raider at one point (see PH - my assessment on Vader for more details). Shaak Ti can beat Vader. She's a better duelist, is faster, and her Force defenses are top notch.
Never read the comic again? Or actually played the game? Starkiller DID tool sidious(this actually backs your point, that he is not infallible 😉 )
I read the comic. SK picks Palpatine up, hurls him down. Palpatine gets up laughing. The only impressive thing SK does to Palpatine is hold back his lightning - and in order to do so he engages in the deus ex machina known as becoming an avatar of the Force. Your point regarding Juno's POV is well taken. I wonder what the novel depicts.
And just how potent is the dark side there? Last i recall SK couldn't even get a simply boost.
Right, so it means she would "annihilate" vader on any given day on any setting.
It doesn't say that he doesn't get a boost. Since it's a Dark Side rich planet, and was turning Maris Brood to the Dark Side because of it, we should assume that he was being boosted. And I never said annihilate so I don't know why that's in quotes. If I remember correctly, I said she wins 5.5-6 out of 10 times. That's pretty close if you ask me. 😛
The planet IS under her control, considering that she has flora and fauna at her disposal, but again HOW does that stop from vader actually using the environment against her?Are you saying that he is so weak against shaak ti that he wouldn't even be able to force lift a rock and hurl it at her?
Are you saying that hurling a rock at her is going to make a difference?
Once again, i have asked and that idiot mizukage yoda evaded the question. What in-f-u-c-k-i-n-g-s name has shaak ti done to be superior to vader? What force feat?(im targeting the insult to him, not you so chill).
Anakin was never called one of the 'great bladebeings' in the Order. Vader's never mastered the ultimate dueling form. And Vader is in a suit that severely limits his mobility. Thus, I'd say Shaak Ti bests him in a saber duel. In the Force, Vader would win. But this isn't a pure Force fight, it's all out. Shaak Ti was trained to deflect Force Lightning with her bare hands. I think her Force defenses would hold against a Force Choke or something similar.
And if he throws a rock at her, she dodges. 😉
Originally posted by Mizukage YodaLeland chee stated the game is canon, and he said only certain parts of the game are retconned by the movies meaning the game IS canon. Live with it.
This is the same game that depicts Anakin wtf Pwning Master Windu in a saber duel, and not to mention contradicts the Movie on several accounts, I hardly consider that canon. [/B]
Originally posted by EnyalusNo, according to faunus and mizukage, it was scripted meaning it was suppose to happen that way.Woah, you know how badly that contradicts the comics and novel? Plus, it's gameplay mechanics. You hit the wrong button (since it's that stupid 'Press displayed button' boss fight) and the fight doesn't turn out like that.
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Originally posted by EnyaluskkNope. I said Vader's TK > Sidious' TK. Just because Shaak Ti can beat Vader doesn't mean she suddenly has superior telekinetic powers.
Originally posted by EnyalusProve her force defences are top notch. And i rather you substantiate where did he lose to a tusken raider.And lost. Just like he lost to a Tuskan Raider at one point (see PH - my assessment on Vader for more details). Shaak Ti can beat Vader. She's a better duelist, is faster, and her Force defenses are top notch.[/B]
Originally posted by EnyalusThis irrelevant now, i dropped it earlierI read the comic. SK picks Palpatine up, hurls him down. Palpatine gets up laughing. The only impressive thing SK does to Palpatine is hold back his lightning - and in order to do so he engages in the deus ex machina known as becoming an avatar of the Force. Your point regarding Juno's POV is well taken. I wonder what the novel depicts.[/B]
Originally posted by EnyalusNot it isn't, you have yet to substantiate HOW shaak ti is going to beat vader, does she demonstrate force lightning? Is her command of TK even close to vader?It doesn't say that he doesn't get a boost. Since it's a Dark Side rich planet, and was turning Maris Brood to the Dark Side because of it, we should assume that he was being boosted. And I never said annihilate so I don't know why that's in quotes. If I remember correctly, I said she wins 5.5-6 out of 10 times. That's pretty close if you ask me. 😛
Seriously, i fail to see how is she even going to challenge vader in the force, vader overpowers kento and instantly snaps his neck, the same can happen to shaak ti.
And in the game he collapses a massive hut which is as durable as steel.
Originally posted by EnyalusIt depends what kind of rock, how big is it, how massive it is.Are you saying that hurling a rock at her is going to make a difference? [/B]
You implied that vader wouldn't be able to control anything in the environment, so i merely asked you a question.
Originally posted by EnyalusYet he destroys count dooku aka "one of the orders greatest jedi and an even greater sith lord" in seconds.Anakin was never called one of the 'great bladebeings' in the Order.
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Dooku's sword skills > shaak ti.
Originally posted by EnyalusVader's never mastered the ultimate dueling form.
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His style borrowed elements from all techniques of combat, even from the highest, most dangerous levels, his moves were quick and unpredictable.
RODV page 276
Shaak ti would be fighting an opponent whose lightsaber style is unknown to her.
Originally posted by EnyalusLack of mobility? Ever read RODV?And Vader is in a suit that severely limits his mobility. Thus, I'd say Shaak Ti bests him in a saber duel. In the Force, Vader would win.
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Vader performs acrobatic stunts, back flips and was fast enough to toy with 2 jedi knights working together trying to kill him, hell he even cancels their force attacks.
Page 287
For an instant it seemed the blade was going to pass clear through vader;s knees, but vader leapt high, half twisting in midair and coming down behind shryne. Shryne rolled as Vader's crimson shaft struck the floor.
Page 289
Vader closed the distance between him in a heart beat
Page 275
Forte and kulka went in as a team, each of them employing different lightsaber styles, determined to off balance vader
same page
Forte and kulka were skilled duelists, but vader was not only faster than starstone remembered him being on murkhana against chatak but also more agile.
Same page He employed his awesome power to put a quick end to his fancy twirling of his opponents, who fell back against the hammering blows of vader's bloodshine blade.
RODV 216
His gaze fully engaged on the twirling blade, his heart hammering in his chest. Calling on the force, he tried to influence the course of the lightsaber, but either the Force wasn't with him or Vader's force abilities were overpowering his.
Originally posted by EnyalusWhats to stop vader from overpowering her with his force crush? Or TK that destroyed an entire platform on the wookie homeworld or destroyed a massive hut as durable as steel?But this isn't a pure Force fight, it's all out. Shaak Ti was trained to deflect Force Lightning with her bare hands. I think her Force defenses would hold against a Force Choke or something similar.
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Oooooh, I like the RODV quotage.
But really, when has Darth Vader killed any Council-level Jedi? He loses to Obi-Wan. And in the Jedi Temple, Shaak Ti also duels him and manages to escape. Implying he couldn't kill her then, in his unsuited form. We all agree that he was a better duelist than in his mech form. She also fends off a dozen or so ManaGuards and is able to hold her own against General Grievous at his peak for a while.
She's a better swordsman. And better swordsmen have a habit of overcoming those who are more powerful in the Force. Anakin over Dooku and Mace over Sidious for example.