Darth Vader VS Shaak Ti

Gideon, you took one part of my argument and attempted to twist it so that it was the only argument I made for her. Which it wasn't. Moreover,I don't need to cite the source when we know it. Now, if the quote wasn't known or was vague - certainly, then I would cite it.

She's a better swordsman than he is. He's been beaten with a blade by Obi-Wan, Maul, Starkiller, and ROTJ Luke off the top of my head. Crow all you want to about him killing some younglings and Jedi Knights - Shaak Ti is an exceptional Jedi Master and Council member. She's a consular, meaning she focuses mostly on Force training and thus wouldn't be as susceptible to Force-based attacks like what Vader uses on Kento Marek, for example. Darth Vader has never defeated someone on or above her level. There is no evidence he can defeat her.

And if you want me to use poor logic, I can use Rampant Ox's excuse: "she's a master of the ultimate dueling form, Makashi."

Originally posted by Enyalus
Gideon, you took one part of my argument and attempted to twist it so that it was the only argument I made for her.

One part of your argument? You used it as the entire crux of it. Nitpicking for inappropriate and invalid logic isn't a crime and you might as well get used to it. As we see from your own words, you subscribed to a ridiculous brand of logic, and once I used it to apply a syllogism, you realized I clubbed you to death with it. Rather than address it, or concede that point, you chose to deflect and lie. That is entirely without justification. It's inexcusable.

Which it isn't.

Where is the rest of your vaunted argument? All I recall is that she managed to nearly kill Starkiller. That is not an argument.

Moreover,I don't need to cite the source when we know it. Now, if the quote wasn't known or was vague - certainly, then I would cite it.

It's a good habit. And, as displayed in my examples, that she is regarded as a highly competent swordswoman is irrelevant. Masters Tinn, Kolar, and Fisto were also regarded as celebrated combatants, but were still easy victims to an opponent whose command of the Force exceeded theirs.

She's a better swordsman than he is.

Prove it.

He's beaten with a blade by Obi-Wan,

One of the Jedi's most capable Masters, the unparalleled master of Soresu, and Skywalker's mentor and friend for over a decade, capable of predicting exactly what moves he is capable of summoning according to the Complete Visual Dictionary? That Obi-Wan?

Maul,

One of the most dangerous Sith apprentices in galactic history, one of the highest and sharpest trained Sith apprentices in galactic history, and an apprentice who pushed his physical and Force-assisted abilities "to the utmost" (all according to the Complete Visual Dictionary)? The apprentice who is a "high end master of multiple forms" (Fight Saber)? That Darth Maul?

Starkiller,

The same Starkiller who defeated General Rahm Kota, Kazdan Paratus, Shaak Ti herself, and who pulled down a Star Destroyer? That Starkiller?

and ROTJ Luke off the top of my head.

The same Skywalker who tapped into his anger and hatred against a father who wasn't attacking him to his full ability? The same Skywalker who, years later, after being defeated and tortured by Gethzerion, would muse: "So this is what it would have been like if Vader tried to kill me." That Skywalker?

Crow all you want to about him killing some younglings and Jedi Knights - Shaak Ti is an exceptional Jedi Master and Council member.

He casually defeated Cin Drallig, the Order's training instructor and battlemaster while simultaneously gripping an apprentice.

She's a consular, meaning she focuses mostly on Force training and thus wouldn't be as susceptible to Force-based attacks like what Vader uses on Kento Marek, for example.

Prove it.

Darth Vader has never defeated someone on or above her level. There is no evidence he can defeat her.

Prove it. Or, better yet, try proving your own case.

And if you want me to use poor logic, I can use Rampant Ox's excuse: "she's a master of the ultimate dueling form, Makashi."

It's actually far better logic than what you're using. You need to face facts. Rather than listen to my constant mantra (COVER YOUR ASS), you dropped your trousers and bent over for all to see. Swallow your pride, concede your embarrassingly stupid point, and save some face, Enyalus. You made a great mistake and you refuse to rectify it and you know it.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Gideon, you took one part of my argument and attempted to twist it so that it was the only argument I made for her. Which it wasn't. Moreover,I don't need to cite the source when we know it. Now, if the quote wasn't known or was vague - certainly, then I would cite it.

She's a better swordsman than he is. He's beaten with a blade by Obi-Wan, Maul, Starkiller, and ROTJ Luke off the top of my head.

All of whom Shaak Ti has fought and defeated, right? Obi-wan circumstances are explained, Maul is an incredible fighter and far superior to Shaak Ti. Starkiller KILLED Shaak Ti and Luke, according to the ROTJ novel, was apparently just that good.

By contrast, Vader also killed more Jedi than just about anyone else, including Nespis's VIII's guardian, Ranik Solusar, Kento Marek, The Dark Woman, Roan Shryne, quite a few Jedi on Kessel when they ambushed him eight on one?

'Better swordsman' based on [B]what? High regard from Obi-wan?

Crow all you want to about him killing some younglings and Jedi Knights - Shaak Ti is an exceptional Jedi Master and Council member.

She's a consular, meaning she focuses mostly on Force training and thus wouldn't be as susceptible to Force-based attacks like what Vader uses on Kento Marek, for example.

Darth Vader has never defeated someone on or above her level. There is no evidence he can defeat her.

In pure skill and power, Vader was above Marek. He won via intelligent fighting and strategy when he distracted Vader with thrown debris. The same is not true of his victory over Shaak Ti, whom he parried and impaled.

I want FEATS from Shaak Ti that put her above Vader. The people listed who've pushed and cold have taken Vader have one thin in common: They're above Shaak Ti, too. If she was capable of defeating Vader, she would have done so.
Vader overcame his 'clumsy' limitations very quickly and he's said to have become more dangerous with all the Jedi he killed during the Purge. he used his Djem so and modified it to add elements of Ataru and Soresu as well as Makashi to the mix. His saber style is described as polished, crisp and unpredictable and never utilizes anything less than precise, clean blows.

And if you want me to use poor logic, I can use Rampant Ox's excuse: "she's a master of the ultimate dueling form, Makashi." [/B]

Originally posted by Enyalus
Gideon, you took one part of my argument and attempted to twist it so that it was the only argument I made for her. Which it wasn't. Moreover,I don't need to cite the source when we know it. Now, if the quote wasn't known or was vague - certainly, then I would cite it.

She's a better swordsman than he is. He's been beaten with a blade by Obi-Wan, Maul, Starkiller, and ROTJ Luke off the top of my head. Crow all you want to about him killing some younglings and Jedi Knights - Shaak Ti is an exceptional Jedi Master and Council member. She's a consular, meaning she focuses mostly on Force training and thus wouldn't be as susceptible to Force-based attacks like what Vader uses on Kento Marek, for example. Darth Vader has never defeated someone on or above her level. There is no evidence he can defeat her.

And if you want me to use poor logic, I can use Rampant Ox's excuse: "she's a master of the ultimate dueling form, Makashi."

The Dark Woman IMO was just as powerful as Shaak Ti as far as the force goes, and she was a master. She was also a lot faster than Vader, but was still defeated.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
The Dark Woman IMO was just as powerful as Shaak Ti as far as the force goes, and she was a master. She was also a lot faster than Vader, but was still defeated.

That may or may not be true, but you have to prove it. Simple opinion from any of us doesn't constitute as evidence.

I'd actually think Shaak was more powerful than the Dark Woman

It would be just as hard to prove Shaak Ti was more powerful than the Dark Woman. Shaak Ti was no doubt more popular than the Dark Woman was, due to the Dark Womans unorthodoxed ways. The Dark Woman has shown to be able to have some control over nature, bend light to make her invisible, and walk through solid objects(i believe).

Originally posted by Gideon
It's a good habit. And, as displayed in my examples, that she is regarded as a highly competent swordswoman is irrelevant. Masters Tinn, Kolar, and Fisto were also regarded as celebrated combatants, but were still easy victims to an opponent whose command of the Force exceeded theirs.

Sidious' command of the Force during that battle was irrelevant, considering that he killed them in a lightsaber duel. His Force-enhanced speed does not prove superior command of the Force.

So no, my point was not irrelevant - what you said, however, was.

Prove it.

She's called one of the greatest bladebeings in the Order. An order that includes Anakin. There's your proof.

One of the Jedi's most capable Masters, the unparalleled master of Soresu, and Skywalker's mentor and friend for over a decade, capable of predicting exactly what moves he is capable of summoning according to the Complete Visual Dictionary? That Obi-Wan?

Yes that Obi-Wan. The same one who praised Shaak Ti's abilities and cunning. The same one who wasn't one of the great bladebeings.

One of the most dangerous Sith apprentices in galactic history, one of the highest and sharpest trained Sith apprentices in galactic history, and an apprentice who pushed his physical and Force-assisted abilities "to the utmost" (all according to the Complete Visual Dictionary)? The apprentice who is a "high end master of multiple forms" (Fight Saber)? That Darth Maul?

That Darth Maul. The same Maul who was killed by a padawan Obi-Wan Kenobi. Who, again, holds Shaak Ti in very high esteem. Furthermore, an apprentice is an apprentice. He's 22. Shaak Ti is a Jedi Master and Council member And she, like Maul, is a master of multiple lightsaber forms. Seems like she's superior to him, when all this is considered.

The same Starkiller who defeated General Rahm Kota, Kazdan Paratus, Shaak Ti herself, and who pulled down a Star Destroyer? That Starkiller?

Stop lying. The Star Destroyer was already in free fall. He stopped it from skidding into him and crushing him flat. That's what happened. Rahm Kota was a Jedi Knight who a weaker, practically neophyte Starkiller beat. Yes, all fear the great power of Kota.

The same Skywalker who tapped into his anger and hatred against a father who wasn't attacking him to his full ability?

The same Skywalker who had less than a year of Jedi training under his belt?

Prove it.

She's capable of deflecting Force Lightning with her bare hands. Logic says her Force shields are superior to an unknown Jedi Knight who was out of practice at the time Vader killed him.

Prove it. Or, better yet, try proving your own case.

There's no evidence to suggest Vader can beat a powerful PT era Council member who was called one of the greatest swordbeings in the Order, a master of multiple lightsaber forms with shielding powerful enough to toss back Force Lightning. Once you find me some, let me know and I'll happily shoot it down.

It's actually far better logic than what you're using. You need to face facts.

I'm sorry. I should have made my points something akin to:

Originally posted by Gideon
But I find your third point, pardon me, ridiculous. A beaten, broken Vader managed to withstand a super-mega-****ing explosion of Palpatine's Force energies repulsed by Galen "I-am-one-with-the-Force" Marek. Shaak Ti dominated a weaker Starkiller according to the novelization; Vader would pimpsmack Starkiller twice via the Force and would challenge him in lightsaber combat and in a Force contest and collapse a massive hut on Kashyyyk which was as durable as metal.

The idea that Ti could even challenge Vader is somewhat preposterous. Perhaps and only perhaps with the power of Felucia behind her, but on a neutral setting? He'd convert to Catholicism and molest her accordingly.

Originally posted by LS
Maul is an incredible fighter and far superior to Shaak Ti.

Prove it or don't use it.

So was Anakin. He was also far more powerful than Shaak Ti and more skilled.

No, Anakin was not a Jedi Master and the only reason he was a Council member was because Palpatine made him so. More skilled? He wasn't a master of multiple forms. Shaak Ti was. That makes her more skilled.

Vader's power in the Force is eighty percent of a being whose power eclipses Shaak Ti and he knows how to use it. If Vader lashes out with the Force, how is she going to resist?

The same way any Force user resists - Force shields.

Errr...right.
Despite superior showings in combat, superior strength in the force, speed and actually having shown us his blade skills? Despite him being too much for her when he was younger? Despite him having killed CIN DRALLIG-who IS on or above her level- in single combat, while fighting two other Jedi, using only one hand to duel and kill Cin?

In pure skill and power, Vader was above Marek. He won via intelligent fighting and strategy when he distracted Vader with thrown debris. The same is not true of his victory over Shaak Ti, whom he parried and impaled.

So many things wrong with this...first, that you use examples from his time prior to being in the suit. Second, that you say 'Vader was above Marek' without any proof at all. Nice going. Third, that you fail to recognize that Shaak Ti didn't even have her blade ignited and her back was turned. She felt Starkiller dying and actually felt bad for him.

I want FEATS from Shaak Ti that put her above Vader. The people listed who've pushed and cold have taken Vader have one thin in common: They're above Shaak Ti, too. If she was capable of defeating Vader, she would have done so.

I don't care what you want. You have yet to prove that people like Darth Maul and a barely trained ROTJ Luke are superior to Shaak Ti - let alone Obi-Wan. And are you forgetting that Vader did not go to Felucia, but sent Starkiller instead? Meaning she didn't have a chance to defeat him, suited version.

This is the only large response I'll be doing tonight. (Fingers. Heh.)

With each subsequent post, you slip further and further into the abyss that is stupidity. Didn't we have this discussion via private message? It is even bigger crime to be an intelligent person and be intentionally dense; all for the sake of trying to prove a lost point.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Sidious' command of the Force during that battle was irrelevant, considering that he killed them in a lightsaber duel. His Force-enhanced speed does not prove superior command of the Force.

...

Seriously? Are you being serious here? This is how you begin? I'm not so certain if I want to continue reading.

Your contention is that Sidious's command of the Force during that battle is irrelevant, and yet you cite his victory against them to be his Force-enhanced speed? Enyalus, from what does FORCE-enhanced speed derive its energy? Think about it for a few minutes before responding.

So no, my point was not irrelevant - what you said, however, was.

If you're going to tell me "no", do be a courteous, responsible debater and actually be right.

She's called one of the greatest bladebeings in the Order. An order that includes Anakin. There's your proof.

As I suspected, this gets shitter by the paragraph. That is not proof. That she is regarded as one of the best in an Order that includes Skywalker is irrelevant; Darth Maul is regarded as one of the highest trained and dangerous Sith apprentices in galactic history -- a history and an order that includes the likes of Darth Bane, Exar Kun, and Darth Nihilus. By applying your very same logic, he is equal to or superior to them.

This would be me clubbing you to death with your own post.

Yes that Obi-Wan. The same one who praised Shaak Ti's abilities and cunning. The same one who wasn't one of the great bladebeings.

Neither was Yoda. Damn, guess they really do give out the title of Grandmaster in a raffle.

By the way, neither Darth Bane nor Exar Kun are lauded for being among the most powerful, most dangerous, or highest trained Sith in history. But Maul is. Guess he's better than they are.

That Darth Maul. The same Maul who was killed by a padawan Obi-Wan Kenobi. Who, again, holds Shaak Ti in very high esteem. Furthermore, an apprentice is an apprentice. He's 22. Shaak Ti is a Jedi Master and Council member

Irrelevant. Darth Maul dominated both Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon in single combat and legitimately defeated Qui-Gon who, according to the narrator of the Phantom Menace, was still the better fighter in comparison to Obi-Wan. Kenobi gained a brief advantage by lashing out in all of his fury, but was still overpowered. I guess, though, that since Palpatine killed Windu, he's the better swordsman?

And she, like Maul, is a master of multiple lightsaber forms.

Darth Maul is a "high end master of multiple forms." Provide the source and specific statement of Shaak Ti's accolade.

Seems like she's superior to him, when all this is considered.

I'd ask you to do it, but you already have enough to prove on your table as it is. But when you've cleared all that, you can prove this.

Stop lying. The Star Destroyer was already in free fall. He stopped it from skidding into him and crushing him flat. That's what happened.

I'm not lying. The Destroyer was in free fall, Starkiller gripped it with the Force, turned it, and pulled it down directly over the magnetic cannon on Raxus Prime. That is what happened.

Rahm Kota was a Jedi Knight who a weaker, practically neophyte Starkiller beat. Yes, all fear the great power of Kota.

Rahm Kota was capable of repulsing Sith lightning, casually, with his bare hand (something that is "practically impossible" according to the Ultimate Visual Guide), repulsing telekinesis, and using the Force to rip off a large control room from the rest of the facility.

And, for the record, Starkiller defeated Kota when the general was in the middle of a Force epiphany.

The same Skywalker who had less than a year of Jedi training under his belt?

The same Skywalker who has been lauded for natural ability and who still attached through raw anger and aggression?

She's capable of deflecting Force Lightning with her bare hands. Logic says her Force shields are superior to an unknown Jedi Knight who was out of practice at the time Vader killed him.

Where does Ti resist Force lightning?

There's no evidence to suggest Vader can beat a powerful PT era Council member who was called one of the greatest swordbeings in the Order,

An accolade given to Masters Tinn, Kolar, and Fisto. Ti's hardly alone in reputation.

a master of multiple lightsaber forms

Name those forms.

with shielding powerful enough to toss back Force Lightning.

Where?

Once you find me some, let me know and I'll happily shoot it down.

Is it a defense mechanism to retreat into your massive ego as your entire argument crumbles around you? I commend your confidence, but must deduct points for an inappropriate time to fuel it.

Your options remain the same: prove your point or swallow your pride and concede. I'm glad to see you've given up the pitiful attempts to beat me in semantics.

Originally posted by Enyalus

Sidious' command of the Force during that battle was irrelevant, considering that he killed them in a lightsaber duel. His Force-enhanced speed does not prove superior command of the Force.

So no, my point was not irrelevant - what you said, however, was.

She's called one of the greatest bladebeings in the Order. An order that includes Anakin. There's your proof.

Yes that Obi-Wan. The same one who praised Shaak Ti's abilities and cunning. The same one who wasn't one of the great bladebeings.

That Darth Maul. The same Maul who was killed by a padawan Obi-Wan Kenobi. Who, again, holds Shaak Ti in very high esteem. Furthermore, an apprentice is an apprentice. He's 22. Shaak Ti is a Jedi Master and Council member And she, like Maul, is a master of multiple lightsaber forms. Seems like she's superior to him, when all this is considered.

Stop lying. The Star Destroyer was already in free fall. He stopped it from skidding into him and crushing him flat. That's what happened. Rahm Kota was a Jedi Knight who a weaker, practically neophyte Starkiller beat. Yes, all fear the great power of Kota.

The same Skywalker who had less than a year of Jedi training under his belt?

She's capable of deflecting Force Lightning with her bare hands. Logic says her Force shields are superior to an unknown Jedi Knight who was out of practice at the time Vader killed him.

There's no evidence to suggest Vader can beat a powerful PT era Council member who was called one of the greatest swordbeings in the Order, a master of multiple lightsaber forms with shielding powerful enough to toss back Force Lightning. Once you find me some, let me know and I'll happily shoot it down.

Prove it or don't use it.

No, Anakin was not a Jedi Master and the only reason he was a Council member was because Palpatine made him so. More skilled? He wasn't a master of multiple forms. Shaak Ti was. That makes her more skilled.

And what, was Shaak Ti more skilled than Dooku as Dooku is only known as a master of Makashi?

The same way any Force user resists - Force shields.

So many things wrong with this...first, that you use examples from his time prior to being in the suit.

Second, that you say 'Vader was above Marek' without any proof at all. Nice going.

Third, that you fail to recognize that Shaak Ti didn't even have her blade ignited and her back was turned. She felt Starkiller dying and actually felt bad for him.

I don't care what you want. You have yet to prove that people like Darth Maul and a barely trained ROTJ Luke are superior to Shaak Ti - let alone Obi-Wan.

And are you forgetting that Vader did not go to Felucia, but sent Starkiller instead? Meaning she didn't have a chance to defeat him, suited version.

And? When has Shaak Ti defeated any of the people who fought Vader? Vader's proved himself in combat. He's displayed exceptional strength, speed and skill throughout the Force.

Shaak Ti isn't comparable to the highest order. She is not to the level of Dooku, Mace, Yoda or Palpatine in combat, she is not Obi-wan's equal or superior. In fact, when she faces Grievous, she is outmatched completely and he leaves her for dead. Anakin is superior to her and she's only able to escape rather than finish him then.

She is very skilled. She is one of the finest saber beings in the order. So are Agen Kolar, Saesee Tiin and Kit Fisto. Problem is that doesn't translate to absolutely being able to crush anyone and everyone else and not enough to set her over some as skilled and monstrous and powerful as Vader who has only improved since his defeat. He's not so flashy any more because he's much more precise, quick to the kill and clean.

Again, Shaak Ti is blindsided by a Zeltron thug and shot and nearly killed in the Clone Wars. She is crushed by Grievous, she is killed by Starkiller.

None of this translates to 'able to stand against Vader.' Using Vader's defeats means nothing if Shaak Ti doesn't have better showings against them.

This is the only large response I'll be doing tonight. (Fingers. Heh.) [/B]

Originally posted by Gideon
Your contention is that Sidious's command of the Force during that battle is irrelevant, and yet you cite his victory against them to be his Force-enhanced speed? Enyalus, from what does FORCE-enhanced speed derive its energy?

Force power and Force reserves. Unless you're wanting to say that a neophyte Bane had superior command of the Force, or Darth Maul has superior command of the Force, or that Anakin has superior command of the Force as of ROTS.

You either misspoke or you're wrong. Which is it? Killing someone with a lightsaber doesn't prove anything about their command of the Force.

Darth Maul is regarded as one of the highest trained and dangerous Sith apprentices in galactic history -- a history and an order that includes the likes of Darth Bane, Exar Kun, and Darth Nihilus. By applying your very same logic, he is equal to or superior to them.

This would be me clubbing you to death with your own post.

Only because you lack the ability to apparently comprehend what you write. Maul was considered the deadliest Sith apprentice. I didn't know Bane, Kun, and Nihilus were apprentices. No, I'm fairly certain that they were Dark Lords of the Sith.

Thank you for exposing your sad level of reading comprehension.

Neither was Yoda.

And this is cited where?

I guess, though, that since Palpatine killed Windu, he's the better swordsman?

Did Palpatine beat Windu in a duel? No? Oh. There goes that remark.

Darth Maul is a "high end master of multiple forms." Provide the source and specific statement of Shaak Ti's accolade.

Shaak Ti is a master of Ataru and Makashi with knowledge of Jar'Kai. Master of multiple forms. The end.

Rahm Kota was capable of repulsing Sith lightning, casually, with his bare hand (something that is "practically impossible" according to the Ultimate Visual Guide), repulsing telekinesis, and using the Force to rip off a large control room from the rest of the facility.

From an inferior version of Starkiller power wise. And still lost.

Where does Ti resist Force lightning?

She's a consular. They are trained to. (Power of the Jedi Sourcebook)

An accolade given to Masters Tinn, Kolar, and Fisto. Ti's hardly alone in reputation.

Irrelevant. Unless you plan on making a case for why suited Vader defeats those three.

Your options remain the same: prove your point or swallow your pride and concede.

Done.

I'm glad to see you've given up the pitiful attempts to beat me in semantics.

Me, too. That gets tiring. I don't know how you manage to do it.

Originally posted by LS
Mace Windu lauds him as the ultimate Soresu master

Of his time. Let's not leave that out.

So she's a member of the High council...Maul destroyed an Entire Army[/B] singlehandedly of Black Sun's finest killers

Right. And Depa takes out an entire warship in 11 seconds. Depa, by the way, is a Council Member.

Kota was a military genius and feared warrior during the Clone Wars who tore out a chunk of a TIE Fighter facility. He also DID pull out the SD out of the sky....and he stopped it. That's pretty big.
And that same neophyte Starkiller beat Shaak Ti, too.

I didn't know being a military genius translated to dueling skill or Force power. And no, the Star Destroyer was already disabled and in free fall, going to crash into the facility where Starkiller was.

Also, Kota was beaten outright by SK. Even having his own lightsaber bent back into his eyes. Shaak Ti held every advantage in their meeting (against a more powerful Starkiller), and lost when she is stabbed in the back without her saber ignited.

By the same Vader holding back, from Luke who, by that point, had killed several Dark Jedi, and going by the ROTJ descriptions, was quite powerful?

'Quite powerful'. Oooh!

And 'Out of practice?' Unlike Ti, Kota and Marek were active fighters in the rebellion against the Empire.

Vader didn't kill Kota, so that portion has no bearing. As for Ti's activity - she trained Maris Brood. I think that says enough about her level of activity, when compared with using explosives to blow up ships and cutting stormtroopers in two.

Roan Shryne was one of the greatest swordsmen of the Order and Vader killed him. Ma'Kis was considered 'unstoppable' in combat and Vader struck him down while occupied with three-four other Jedi.

Roan is never referred to by the praise or hyperbole that is said about Shaak Ti. And Ma'kis and others were cut down by Darth Vader and the 501st legion backing him up.

Uhhhh, yes he was. He uses several from Dooku's POV and then switches to his Djem So.

Yes. He's familiar with them. Everyone is familiar with Shii-Cho. Duh?

And what, was Shaak Ti more skilled than Dooku as Dooku is only known as a master of Makashi?

Man, I know that must have been a mistake, but I'm going to point it out anyway - Dooku was a noted master of every lightsaber form.

Which, when facing enemies more powerful, yield. Vader is unquestionably more powerful in the force than Shaak Ti. Are you honestly going to dispute that?

And by your previous contention, Vader is more powerful than Starkiller. Explain why he's knocked on his ass by Starkiller's blast, then?

Your 'yielding' shield theory isn't entirely true. Kas'im shields did not yield to Bane's telekinetic blast capable of collapsing an entire temple. Is Kas'im more powerful than Bane?

Her shields would hold. She'd get close and duel, and she'd win with superior skill, speed, and agility. That is my stance.

He improves from there.

Really? So, potentially for being 200% of the Emperor, now down to 80% is an improvement? Having your speed reduced by an unwieldy suit is an improvement? Being in constant pain from the Sith injections you have to take is an improvement?

Read the TFU novel. Vader is more powerful than Starkiller who beats him via distracting him and capitalizing on those gains. As a duelist and in force powers, Starkiller is outmatched.

This is great. If true. I love Vader. I hate that little punk Marek. I'll happily concede this point.

And according to death Star the novel, Vader was too powerful for Obi-wan in their duel. He was going to lose no matter what.

What's it say in the A New Hope novel?

You could concede and save yourself the trouble, of course

Could...but where's the fun in that? Besides, I gave Shaak Ti a 5.5-6 out of 10 win in this thread, while she's on Felucia...you and Gideon act as though I've committed some great sacrilege.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Force power and Force reserves. Unless you're wanting to say that a neophyte Bane had superior command of the Force, or Darth Maul has superior command of the Force, or that Anakin has superior command of the Force as of ROTS.

Hence why those two of those "celebrated swordsmen" did nothing but gape as Sidious ran them through, why the third was killed after a brief clash of blades, and why the fourth was driven back into the main office, despite the fact that they had the advantage of both superior numbers and the fact that they were in combat stance long before their enemy did.

Skilled and fine swordsmen they may be, but the Emperor was their far superior in Force command, hence why he was able to move at speeds that they were incapable of.

You either misspoke or you're wrong. Which is it?

Neither, actually. I cover my ass to a degree far greater than you. This has been demonstrated numerous times, so why you continue to try to assert that I'm wrong remains a mystery.

Killing someone with a lightsaber doesn't prove anything about their command of the Force.

It does when you move at far greater speeds than your opponent, actually.

Only because you lack the ability to apparently comprehend what you write. Maul was considered the deadliest Sith apprentice. I didn't know Bane, Kun, and Nihilus were apprentices. No, I'm fairly certain that they were Dark Lords of the Sith.

As was Maul. By definition, Sith apprentices are Dark Lords of the Sith. The only titular difference is the rank of Sith Master. Unless your contention is that Bane was given the rank and status of Sith Master even during his tenure at the Academy.

Thank you for exposing your sad level of reading comprehension.

And thank you for being so excruciatingly easy to entrap. LOL. "Great Force-enhanced speed has nothing to do with a great command of the Force!"

And this is cited where?

The narrator of the RotS novel never refers to Yoda as a prodigious swordsman. Since he doesn't, I guess Shaak Ti is the greater duelist.

Did Palpatine beat Windu in a duel? No? Oh. There goes that remark.

Did Obi-Wan beat Maul in a duel? No? Oh. There goes that remark. See? Painfully easy to entrap.

She's a consular. They are trained to. (Power of the Jedi Sourcebook)

Prove all of that and provide the exact statement. But, as Lightsnake is fond of saying, General Kota actually demonstrated the same technique.

Irrelevant. Unless you plan on making a case for why suited Vader defeats those three.

Not irrelevant. One, because I say so. Two, because they were casually defeated by a Lord of the Sith with a greater command of the Force. Reputation alone didn't put Tinn, Kolar, and Fisto on par with the Emperor; reputation alone doesn't put Ti on par with Vader.

Done.

"Done" = "I sincerely apologize, Gideon, for being an absolute moron and am impressed with how handily you schooled me"?

Me, too. That gets tiring. I don't know how you manage to do it.

Not being pitifully dense helps. A requirement you, sadly, don't meet.

And thank you for being so excruciatingly easy to entrap. LOL. "Great Force-enhanced speed has nothing to do with a great command of the Force!"

While I agree with you overall, I have to say that this is a bit shaky. Anakin had terrible command of the force, but had exceptional Force Speed nonetheless. I have always operated under the premise that Force Speed is fueled by base Force Potential, while Force Mastery allows for more powerful and precise applications of Force. (caps are all intentional)

EDIT: On the re-read, that was kind of jumbled. Bottom Line:
Force Speed is instinctive, and is produced intuitively. Force mastery is entirely dependant upon instruction or thought.

Anakin's instinctual command of the Force is awe-inspiring, Jbill. We're not talking about mastery of esoteric Sith arts and techniques.

Edit: And just to clarify, Anakin hasn't demonstrated speeds of Yoda or Sidious.

AHH!! 😱 I think I caught you!

Enyalus is saying that Force Speed alone is not an accurate gauge of Force Mastery. You are saying that Sidious used his Mastery to increase his speed. Your disagreement stems from the method of increasing speed via the Force- is it instinctive or learned? I brought up Anakin as an example that it is instinctive- he didn't need any training of any kind for the advanced speed he shows in the podrace. Here is a technique that is far from esoteric- a six year old knows it [Force speed]. The evidence here points away from increased speed being a specific technique or a result of Force Mastery. Can it be increased by study? Possibly. To prove so will be difficult, and would be on your shoulders.

Originally posted by Jbill311
AHH!! 😱 I think I caught you!

You can try.

Enyalus is saying that Force Speed alone is not an accurate gauge of Force Mastery.

Not bursts of speed or "quick reflexes." But to be truly fast amongst master swordsmen? A great command of the Force is required.

You are saying that Sidious used his Mastery to increase his speed.

I am saying that it is a sign of his mastery, hence why he was able to dwarf the three assembled swordsmen in his office.

Your disagreement stems from the method of increasing speed via the Force- is it instinctive or learned?

Speed and reflexes enhanced by the Force can be instinctual, sure. But we're not arguing about being "fast." We're arguing about being fast amongst "celebrated swordsmen."

I brought up Anakin as an example that it is instinctive- he didn't need any training of any kind for the advanced speed he shows in the podrace. Here is a technique that is far from esoteric- a six year old knows it [Force speed].

You misunderstand entirely. I'm not saying that Force speed requires an extraordinary mastery of the Force. But to be truly fast amongst master Jedi and Sith? It is.

The evidence here points away from increased speed being a specific technique or a result of Force Mastery. Can it be increased by study? Possibly.

Of course it is.

To prove so will be difficult, and would be on your shoulders.

I have. Remember my mantra: cover thy ass.

Close, grasshopper, but not quite!

Originally posted by Gideon
Hence why those two of those "celebrated swordsmen" did nothing but gape as Sidious ran them through, why the third was killed after a brief clash of blades, and why the fourth was driven back into the main office, despite the fact that they had the advantage of both superior numbers and the fact that they were in combat stance long before their enemy did.

Skilled and fine swordsmen they may be, but the Emperor was their far superior in Force command, hence why he was able to move at speeds that they were incapable of.

You're saying that three Jedi Masters, who were some of the greatest bladebeings the Order had ever produced, were killed by Palpatine because his command of the Force (read: mastery/knowledge?) allowed him to move faster than them? You think that somehow the elite swordsmen somehow don't know the trick, or that they weren't moving at "super" speeds themselves?

No. Palpatine's power was greater than theirs. He had more power to summon up and pour into his Force speed, that's why he was faster than them. If Force speed takes superior command of the Force to use, then all hail Kaox Krul for being able to speedblitz opponents moving as fast as a full throttle speederbike.

It does when you move at far greater speeds than your opponent, actually.

Power and Force reserves. Not knowledge/mastery/command of the Force. Any novice Jedi or Sith can utilize Force Speed. The reason they can't move as fast as Palpatine or Yoda? Power.

As was Maul. By definition, Sith apprentices are Dark Lords of the Sith. The only titular difference is the rank of Sith Master. Unless your contention is that Bane was given the rank and status of Sith Master even during his tenure at the Academy.

It mentions deadliest Sith apprentice, not deadliest Sith Lord. And yes, Bane during his time at the Academy would qualify. He and the other students of the academy are referred to as Sith apprentices. And he never officially completes his training. So at that time, he's an apprentice and the quote would affect him.

Later, however, he proclaims himself Dark Lord of the Sith and as the founder of a new Order, is clearly no longer an apprentice. The quote you cited has no bearing on Dark Lords whom we know completed their training. Unless you think that Darth Maul is deadlier than Darth Sidious.

And thank you for being so excruciatingly easy to entrap. LOL. "Great Force-enhanced speed has nothing to do with a great command of the Force!"

You have yet to entrap anything. Force Speed is a basic ability for the Sith and for the Jedi. The requirements? A basic knowledge of the Force, the technique to be known, and power. Once again, I'll cite Bane's example - able to become 'a blurr of motion,' to the eyes of other Sith apprentices and strike Sirak thrice before any of them could register it. He has a great command of the Force? Compared to Jedi Masters and some of the best swordsmen the Jedi Order had produced? Really?

The narrator of the RotS novel never refers to Yoda as a prodigious swordsman. Since he doesn't, I guess Shaak Ti is the greater duelist.

Oh, in other words it is your guess that he's not on that list of greatest bladebeings. Thank you for the backhanded concession.

Did Obi-Wan beat Maul in a duel? No? Oh. There goes that remark. See? Painfully easy to entrap.

Did I ever claim Obi-Wan was a better swordsman than Maul? No. Get your foot out of your mouth.

Prove all of that and provide the exact statement. But, as Lightsnake is fond of saying, General Kota actually demonstrated the same technique.

I gave you the source. It's not my job to rummage through sources to please you. Look it up if you want it, or take my word for it. But, to go along with that, if Kota could perform such a feat, then its more than reasonable to think Shaak Ti could as well - even without the source I cited. Why? Higher rank. More direct knowledge with other masters. More clearance and direct knowledge of other sources/holocrons to learn from.

Not irrelevant. One, because I say so. Two, because they were casually defeated by a Lord of the Sith with a greater command of the Force. Reputation alone didn't put Tinn, Kolar, and Fisto on par with the Emperor; reputation alone doesn't put Ti on par with Vader.

They were defeated by a Lord of the Sith, who incidentally happens to have a greater command of the Force than they do.

He stabs them. That takes a great knowledge of the Force, how?

Furthermore, I didn't say Ti is on par with Vader. Powerwise, Vader is superior. Speed and skill wise? Not so much.

Originally posted by Enyalus

Force power and Force reserves. Unless you're wanting to say that a neophyte Bane had superior command of the Force, or Darth Maul has superior command of the Force, or that Anakin has superior command of the Force as of ROTS.

You either misspoke or you're wrong. Which is it? Killing someone with a lightsaber doesn't prove anything about their command of the Force.

Only because you lack the ability to apparently comprehend what you write. Maul was considered the deadliest Sith apprentice. I didn't know Bane, Kun, and Nihilus were apprentices. No, I'm fairly certain that they were [b]Dark Lords of the Sith.

Irrelevant. Unless you plan on making a case for why suited Vader defeats those three.

Of his time. Let's not leave that out.

Right. And Depa takes out an entire warship in 11 seconds. Depa, by the way, is a Council Member.

I didn't know being a military genius translated to dueling skill or Force power. And no, the Star Destroyer was already disabled and in free fall, going to crash into the facility where Starkiller was.

Also, Kota was beaten outright by SK. Even having his own lightsaber bent back into his eyes. Shaak Ti held every advantage in their meeting (against a more powerful Starkiller), and lost when she is stabbed in the back without her saber ignited.

Kota was also suddenly shocked and confused about seeing himself in Starkiller's future. Ti, in the novel, is on the offensive when she's killed

'Quite powerful'. Oooh!

Vader didn't kill Kota, so that portion has no bearing.

As for Ti's activity - she trained Maris Brood. I think that says enough about her level of activity, when compared with using explosives to blow up ships and cutting stormtroopers in two.

Roan is never referred to by the praise or hyperbole that is said about Shaak Ti. And Ma'kis and others were cut down by Darth Vader and the 501st legion backing him up.

And Vader had all but three of the group dead by the time ANY[/B] Clone showed up. In the melee, Ma'Kis and one other Jedi are killed instantly while Vader is fending the others off simultaneously.
Again, this is before Vader's clumsiness leaves him and he becomes even superior.

Yes. He's familiar with them. Everyone is familiar with Shii-Cho. Duh?

Man, I know that must have been a mistake, but I'm going to point it out anyway - Dooku was a noted master of every lightsaber form.

And by your previous contention, Vader is more powerful than Starkiller. Explain why he's knocked on his ass by Starkiller's blast, then?

Your 'yielding' shield theory isn't entirely true. Kas'im shields did not yield to Bane's telekinetic blast capable of collapsing an entire temple. Is Kas'im more powerful than Bane?

In the Force, Shaak Ti can't hope to touch Vader. If he goes for a kill there, how the hell can she block? Her defenses are not up to par against someone like him.

Her shields would hold. She'd get close and duel, and she'd win with superior skill, speed, and agility. That is my stance.

Superior speed? Vader's movements are not slow, they're precise. He's fast enough to counter four-five Jedi knights and masters attacking him from all sides and kill several of them. He kills the best of the Imperial Guard trainees, whose defenses and offenses are describes as 'flawless' and 'perfect'...yet Vader toys with him as if he's a child, absolutely dazzling the trainees with speed and agility.

Agility? Why didn't the Dark Woman kill Vader when she was vaulting around him, then? At what point has Shaak ti EVER demonstrated superior speed or agility?

Really? So, potentially for being 200% of the Emperor, now down to 80% is an improvement? Having your speed reduced by an unwieldy suit is an improvement? Being in constant pain from the Sith injections you have to take is an improvement?

Learning to overcome your weaknesses is part of improving.

This is great. If true. I love Vader. I hate that little punk Marek. I'll happily concede this point.

What's it say in the A New Hope novel?

Could...but where's the fun in that? Besides, I gave Shaak Ti a 5.5-6 out of 10 win in this thread, while she's on Felucia...you and Gideon act as though I've committed some great sacrilege. [/B]

Ti has very little chance against him. Better than most, though.

Originally posted by Enyalus
You're saying that three Jedi Masters, who were some of the greatest bladebeings the Order had ever produced, were killed by Palpatine because his command of the Force (read: mastery/knowledge?) allowed him to move faster than them? You think that somehow the elite swordsmen somehow don't know the trick, or that they weren't moving at "super" speeds themselves?

You're characteristically not paying attention, Enyalus. How many more times are we going to have to go round and round in this dance, me constantly entrapping you and exposing your fallible logic and your rebuttals getting shorter and shorter?

Tinn, Kolar, and Fisto are regarded as celebrated swordsmen. Nowhere are they regarded for immense Force aptitude. What does that mean? Like Anoon Bondara, whose skills and technique are arguably greater than any Jedi in the Order as of the Phantom Menace, he hasn't demonstrated Force ability on par with the upper tier Jedi Masters. So, while he might, say, have greater discipline and technique than Yoda, he would still get his ass handed to him because Yoda can use the Force to enhance his physical attributes in ways that Bondara cannot.

No. Palpatine's power was greater than theirs. He had more power to summon up and pour into his Force speed, that's why he was faster than them. If Force speed takes superior command of the Force to use, then all hail Kaox Krul for being able to speedblitz opponents moving as fast as a full throttle speederbike.

Nonsense. If you attribute it to raw power only, then Luke Skywalker and Anakin Skywalker would dwarf their opponents in speed. Yet they don't. Skywalker can't move faster than Obi-Wan, who was nearly assigned to the Agricultural Corps for an alarming lack of great Force aptitude.

Power and Force reserves. Not knowledge/mastery/command of the Force. Any novice Jedi or Sith can utilize Force Speed. The reason they can't move as fast as Palpatine or Yoda? Power.

False, sir. Otherwise, as stated above, Anakin and Luke Skywalker would move twice as fast as the Emperor or Yoda. They don't.

It mentions deadliest Sith apprentice, not deadliest Sith Lord. And yes, Bane during his time at the Academy would qualify. He and the other students of the academy are referred to as Sith apprentices. And he never officially completes his training. So at that time, he's an apprentice and the quote would affect him.

Later, however, he proclaims himself Dark Lord of the Sith and as the founder of a new Order, is clearly no longer an apprentice. The quote you cited has no bearing on Dark Lords whom we know completed their training. Unless you think that Darth Maul is deadlier than Darth Sidious.

Christ, you're missing the point entirely, Enyalus! That is the whole point: even though Darth Maul is regarded by an omniscient source as one of the most highly trained and dangerous Sith apprentices in history, it does not mean that he is necessarily better than those who have not received such accolades. That Shaak Ti is regarded as one of the Jedi Order's finest swordsmen does not put her on equal or superior footing to Anakin Skywalker before or after his submission to Sidious. At best, it implies that they might be in the same ballpark, but you were using it as the basis to try to shove the idea that "Shaak Ti is greater than Anakin/Vader!!1!" upon us. And it simply doesn't hold weight.

You have yet to entrap anything. Force Speed is a basic ability for the Sith and for the Jedi. The requirements? A basic knowledge of the Force, the technique to be known, and power. Once again, I'll cite Bane's example - able to become 'a blurr of motion,' to the eyes of other Sith apprentices and strike Sirak thrice before any of them could register it. He has a great command of the Force? Compared to Jedi Masters and some of the best swordsmen the Jedi Order had produced? Really?

Of course Bane has a ridiculous command of the Force, he's an uber-Force user. He's not weak, he's not subpar, he's not even average.

Oh, in other words it is your guess that he's not on that list of greatest bladebeings. Thank you for the backhanded concession.

WTF?

You. Miss. The. Point. It skyrocketed over your head days ago. You were using the omniscient narrator's regard of Shaak Ti to enforce the poorly constructed opinion that she is equal to or superior to Anakin/Darth Vader because Skywalker wasn't explicitly regarded as such. That same source never identifies Yoda as one of the "greatest swordsmen" in the Order, so if we apply your logic, Shaak Ti is automatically greater than Yoda.

Did I ever claim Obi-Wan was a better swordsman than Maul? No. Get your foot out of your mouth.

Originally posted by Enyalus
That Darth Maul. The same Maul who was killed by a padawan Obi-Wan Kenobi.

You tried to use this as a basis to undermine Maul's status to try to force your own agenda. If it wasn't your intention to insinuate that Obi-Wan was superior, then your entire series of responses on this subject is irrelevant.

I gave you the source. It's not my job to rummage through sources to please you. Look it up if you want it, or take my word for it. But, to go along with that, if Kota could perform such a feat, then its more than reasonable to think Shaak Ti could as well - even without the source I cited. Why? Higher rank. More direct knowledge with other masters. More clearance and direct knowledge of other sources/holocrons to learn from.

It is your job to provide the source. Your job is to prove your point. You prove your point by providing evidence, not by spouting out the name and expecting everyone else to do your job for you. You will give me the source and its explicit sentence or you will drop it. And we don't go by assumptions or supposition around here. Until Shaak Ti is proven to be capable of deflecting Force lightning, it will not and cannot be assumed that she can. Period.

They were defeated by a Lord of the Sith, who incidentally happens to have a greater command of the Force than they do.

Exactly.

He stabs them. That takes a great knowledge of the Force, how?

Because he can channel and focus his potency in ways that they can't, including the augmentation of physical abilities to move at speeds that they can't compete with.

Furthermore, I didn't say Ti is on par with Vader. Powerwise, Vader is superior. Speed and skill wise? Not so much.

You still haven't met your burden.

i thought obi-wan was sent to the agri-corps because qui-gon was at the time too caught up with his past experiences with Xanatos to choose obi-wan before his 13th birthday, the final age at which a master could choose an apprentice.. 😬
that and the fact he was dared into fighting bruck unofficially, and sent as punishment due to the false injuries that bruck claimed to have because of the fight..