Originally posted by Taven
They had no wish to harm Bane, yes, but the fact remains that they needed to transfer all of their power into Bane as quickly as they could, in the form of Sith lightning, which regardless of the intent, is lethal by nature, and would require that the person receiving it be capable of protecting themselves from it. Which Bane did with no real visible signs of effort, with less than a quarter of the experience he - as of Ro2 - possesses, before gaining the Force power enhancing orbalisk armour, before learning directly from the entirety of Sadow's knowledge, and before gaining a far deeper understanding of the darkside.
Originally posted by Taven
Don't believe everything you read, Jim. Holocron making isn't even implied to require the creator be capable of subatomic control. All that's said is that Bane manipulated the crystalline strands on the subatomic scale to ensure that they fitted into place; to argue that the extra precautions that Bane was in a position to take would have been utilised by anybody to ever make a holocron would be a fallacy of association. So no, as it stands, Bane is the only Force User in the mythos who can be said to possess such a fine level of control. Nobody has demonstrated anything even close, and it speaks volumes for his mastery of the Force, and how efficiently he can generate his own power on a small scale (an example being on an Exar Kun sized body).
Originally posted by Taven
Was anybody even arguing that the orbalisks would be capable of stopping them? Who says that Bane would even allow the amulet blasts to hit the orbalisks in the first place? Again, that Bane could use the Force to manipulate planetary energies ten years before his current peak in power would lead to the logical conclusion that he'd be capable of blocking or redirecting the amulet blasts with laughable ease. These amulets may be the be all end all when characters like Count Dooku or Darth Maul are involved, but they quite simply aren't in the same universe as planetary level tankers. They're a non factor in this fight.
Originally posted by Taven
Not to mention, you're completely wrong about the orbalisks; it's not the dark side energy specifically that they possess an inherent weakness against, but the electricity itself, as best shown when the electricity within the Umbaaran Assassin's stun pikes had the exact same effect on them as regular Force lightning did.
I thought that because they 'fed on the dark side of the Force' they were especially weak to attacks from that source. If it was said to be simple electricity that is their weakness I will concede the point. However, it will still be your responsibility to show that the Orbalisks can protect him from such a devastating Force attack.
Originally posted by Jbill311
He is not shown to be able to tank planetary energies outside of ritual, unless you want to say that his own lightning reflected back at him was greater than a planetary scale. That seems excessive.
Well, to be fair - Bane wasn't expecting his Lightning to be bounced back at him.
On another note, I think Kun's saber skills are being sorely underrated here. Just prior to becoming Dark Lord of the Sith, he says to Ulic Qel-Droma that he is the greatest swordsman in the galaxy.
Given his combat record and his ability to invent his own unique saber (as well as, presumably, saber style), there's no reason to doubt it.
I think that in a pure duel, without Bane's orbalisks, Kun would win. I'd say he has superior blade skills compared to Bane. One of the best in the mythos.
He absolutely schools one of the greatest Jedi Masters the Order has ever had as a padawan with incomplete lightsaber skills and a totally unfamiliar form to himself (Jar'Kai). Taking in the age and experience gap, along with the amount of training to put it in perspective: It'd be like Ki-Adi-Mundi defeating Yoda in a saber duel just after Mundi becomes a Jedi Knight.
Not to mention that he stalemates Ulic Qel-Droma (the Anakin Skywalker of the ancient Jedi Order) in a saber contest before being interrupted by Marka Ragnos. The same Qel-Droma who was able to hold his own against an enraged Jedi Knight trying to kill him, while cut off from the Force and out of practice with a saber for, what, 10 years?
And if you look at the Exar/Ulic duel, Exar doesn't seem to be putting much effort into it. And he doesn't use his twin blades - opting instead for the single blade. He also calls himself the greatest swordsman in the galaxy - a claim not refuted by Ulic. And something that Bane might only have laid claim to after Kas'im and Raskta's deaths.
Oh, after his spirit occupies Kyp Durron's body, isn't he back to being nearly unbeatable with a blade? I haven't read the book in a while.
Originally posted by Enyalus
I think that in a pure duel, without Bane's orbalisks, Kun would win. I'd say he has superior blade skills compared to Bane. One of the best in the mythos.He absolutely schools one of the greatest Jedi Masters the Order has ever had as a padawan with incomplete lightsaber skills and a totally unfamiliar form to himself (Jar'Kai). Taking in the age and experience gap, along with the amount of training to put it in perspective: It'd be like Ki-Adi-Mundi defeating Yoda in a saber duel just after Mundi becomes a Jedi Knight.
That aside, show me one single quote naming Vodo as anything resembling more than a 'competent' fighter. He's 'experienced.' His claims to fame? Being stupid enough to fight a Sith Lord with a taped up stick and doing worse than the tree man who a admits combat isn't his skill.
Also, mindlessly slamming two sabers on your opponent isn't 'Jar'kai.'
Vodo sucked. A complete idiot who is there to do nothing but get his ass kicked.
Not to mention that he stalemates Ulic Qel-Droma (the Anakin Skywalker of the ancient Jedi Order) in a saber contest before being interrupted by Marka Ragnos. The same Qel-Droma who was able to hold his own against an enraged Jedi Knight trying to kill him, while cut off from the Force and out of practice with a saber for, what, 10 years?
And if you look at the Exar/Ulic duel, Exar doesn't seem to be putting much effort into it. And he doesn't use his twin blades - opting instead for the single blade. He also calls himself the greatest swordsman in the galaxy - a claim not refuted by Ulic. And something that Bane might only have laid claim to after Kas'im and Raskta's deaths.
Oh, after his spirit occupies Kyp Durron's body, isn't he back to being nearly unbeatable with a blade? I haven't read the book in a while.
Enyalus and I have a very unstable relationship. I respect the fact that he's smart, but he needs to understand that he's essentially a guest in our house. He used to whine and complain about me being an arrogant jerk, but at the drop of a dime summons his so-called "prick programming" and hurls pejoratives and baits ad infinitum. If we're not supposed to act like that, then he definitely isn't. He isn't the axis around which this forum revolves. That would be me.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
he surprised Vodo with two sabers and caught him totally off guard.That aside, show me one single quote naming Vodo as anything resembling more than a 'competent' fighter. He's 'experienced.' His claims to fame? Being stupid enough to fight a Sith Lord with a taped up stick and doing worse than the tree man who a admits combat isn't his skill.
Off the top of my head:
"Master Vodo wielded a common quarterstaff in combat as effectively as most Jedi used a lightsaber." (Power of the Jedi Sourcebook)
"My master has been respected for centuries among our fraternity." (Dark Lords of the Sith)
There are more quotes throughout Dark Lords of the Sith and The Sith War. He's also a Jedi Guardian, Watchman, Master, and Weapons Master. And I don't know whether this part counts or not, but it lists his feats as ambidexterity, combat expertise, combat reflexes, and weapon proficiencies in lightsabers and quarterstaves.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Also, mindlessly slamming two sabers on your opponent isn't 'Jar'kai.'
Last time I checked, using two blades was a kind of Jar'Kai. Which Exar presumably was not trained in. The fact that he bested Vodo like that is impressive, especially considering that 1) Vodo obviously sparred with all of his padawans in such a manner and no one else was able to break his quarterstaff, and 2) Vodo was responsible for Kun's lightsaber skills, and so should have been intimately familiar with them (see Obi-Wan vs. Anakin's duel for reasons why this would influence the outcome of a battle).
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Vodo sucked. A complete idiot who is there to do nothing but get his ass kicked.
Yes. Considering he was a weapons master, capable of wielding a quarterstaff well enough to rival most Jedi with their lightsabers, respected throughout the Jedi Order, was a 'wise Jedi Master and historian' who was one of the original keepers of the Tedryn Holocron, was capable of the Sever Force and the Wall of Light Force technique, and able to duel a fully trained and immersed in the Dark Side, Dark Lord of the Sith Exar Kun with a simple quarterstaff.
Some of his students included legends like Exar Kun, Nomi Sunrider, and Kreia (Krynda Draay). I suppose that they trained under Vodo had absolutely no affect on how powerful they became.
Your bias is outstanding.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Considering earlier, we see him practicing with it and training Vim? And if by 'holding off' you mean 'running away from the mindless berserker, pausing briefly to parry her attacks when she catches up a few times" then yes.
And how does this put Kun above Bane in saber skills? Speed, strength?Available evidence has Bane taking those. Big time.
Faunus would explain why the feat was impressive better than I could. If he comes in here, I'll let him answer this.
As far as speed, we can't tell how quickly Kun moved because it's a comic. Vodo's speed, however non-canon (RPG stats) included 'rapid strike,' 'combat reflexes,' and 'burst of speed.' I guess they're attempting to tell us that Vodo was fast - yet at the Senate meeting Exar Kun was able to blitz him so quickly that Vodo was forced into a purely defensive action against his former student.
And as far as strength goes, he's able to snap Vodo's quarterstaff in half as a padawan who's lightsaber skills are incomplete. He's able to, with one hand, lift the Chancellor (?) of the Republic who happens to be a very large alien off the ground and then proceed to tear his head off (again, with only one hand). If that wasn't enough, in the Kun/Vodo rematch - Kun attempts to convert Vodo to join his Sith brotherhood. When Kun finally sees it is futile one strike is all that it takes to reshatter Vodo's quarterstaff again. And, I'll remind you and everyone else - his staff was able to withstand multiple blows and had obviously never been shattered before. If that's still not enough, he uses a double-bladed lightsaber with only a single saber grip. Why do all other double-bladed lightsaber need the longer, two handed grip? Leverage (read that as strength). That Kun needs merely one hand to generate the power typically afforded to two hands speaks absolute volumes to his sheer physical power. He should be up there with Bane and Anakin in that department.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
....what?
1. When the heck does he name himself 'greatest swordsman' and why would Ulic bother to refute it with words when Kun is unable to overcome him?
2. Exar isn't stupid enough to hold back. It outright says Exar is unable to claim an advantage in the narration.
3. Exar is not a Jar'Kai master. His skill lies with his single blade and maybe with the double. by this point we have no reason to believe he has modified his saber, either.
4. Exar is there to KILL Ulic. If he's not fighting seriously, more fool him. He's overconfident and that means Bane will butcher him.
1. In the Dark Lords of the Sith audiobook. He's also referred to throughout The Sith War, Dark Lords of the Sith and in the Dark Side Sourcebook as a 'Master Swordsman.'
2. At that point, sure. But of course, their duel is interrupted. Let's not forget that Marka Ragnos named Kun as the DLOTS, with Ulic being his apprentice. Not vice versa. There was a reason for that.
3. I never said he was a Jar'Kai master. That he's able to best his teacher, who is a Jedi Weapons Master and Guardian, while relatively untrained, is completely phenomenal and unheard of.
4. There to kill him? Hardly. First he politely announces himself while Aleema and Ulic are about to get intimate instead of simply sneaking up and killing them. Then he intentionally knocks Aleema unconscious after she fires a blast at him (as opposed to outright killing her). Then he attempts to humble Ulic and is interrupted.
Originally posted by Tangible God
That post was directed at the characters, not you. Though even I thought the words sounded rather agressive.
Oh, I clearly know that the criticism was upon the characters. But saying something like 'Vodo sucked. A complete idiot who is there to do nothing but get his ass kicked.' is baiting, regardless. If I went into the Superman subform and yelled, "supes sux teh big 1 lulz" or went into the Project Holocron thread ranting about how Corran Horn would kick Darth Sidious' ass and anyone who thinks otherwise is a fanboy - it'd be baiting.
Originally posted by Gideon
It's only baiting if you have an unreasonable amount of affection for a fictional character. You should be able to rise above the bait. Or are you a guppy, now?
He's done this two-three times now in the past two days, for no apparent reason or provocation.
Regarding your reply in the Vader vs. Ti thread, I was actually surprised by how polite you were to me. I'll return the favor later tonight or tomorrow. I've got a test to study for sometime tonight.
Lightsnake did not deliberately insult you, Enyalus. If he bashes Exar Kun, you shouldn't be so bent out of shape by it. I don't ride you for your dislike of Sidious, I respect that it's your opinion, point out that I simply don't know how you can't, and get on with my life. Advent doesn't climb out of the woodwork and jump me for calling Anakin a complete moron, because that's what he is.
As far as your rebuttal regarding Shaak Ti versus Vader, make it a good one. Seriously, a lot of the logic you use is completely, totally, and unambiguously inept.