Originally posted by Lightsnake
I'm pretty sure those are stats with the numbers next to them...I literally can't see anything About weapons masters in conjunction with Vodo anywhere else and he'd certainly be listed as one if he was since.Check some other Jedi...I'm sure you'll see 'weapons masters' on more than one, too.
Ooroo doesn't, Odan-Urr doesn't, Arca Jeth doesn't, Thon does, Vodo does, Ulic/Nomi/Cay/Tott/Oss/Dace/Shoaneb don't.
Seems like just Thon and Vodo...question is, why Thon? 😐 He can't even hold a saber. But anyway, no, I don't think those are stats. They simply describe what their race is and what their positions are in the Jedi Order.
For instance, it's got Arca listed as Male Arkanian, Jedi Guardian, Jedi Master, and Jedi Instructor. Odan-Urr listed as a Jedi Scholar, and so forth. I think those should count as canon, then, since they basically list information and not RPG statistics.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Thing is, nothing else seems to count them as canon...and Thon makes no sense...and heck 'Jedi Scholar?' That's not even a position.
...Isn't it? Keeper of Antiquities and all that. Master of the Jedi Library.
And nothing else mentions it, apparently. Doesn't mean nothing else counts it as canon. These guys aren't often talked about.
Originally posted by JollyJimThe point remains: he preformed this feat in the setting of a Sith Ritual and we have no other evidence that says he could do this at a whim in the middle of combat.
That he performed the display of power in the ritual is irrelevant. It's not like he was in a meditative stance Jim; he was stood in the centre, surrounded by his peers, and drawing in all of their power into his body. It would be the combat situation equivalent of him being surrounded on all angles by hostile enemy combatants and having them all simultaneously hurl attacks at him. It's a demonstration of power that he'd be capable of replicating in almost any situation (one of the exceptions perhaps being in the middle of a close combat saber confrontation), and one that puts him in the same category as the likes of Darth Nihilus and Luke Skywalker as someone that can manipulate the Force on the planetary level. And this before:
1. Developing his power for a further ten years (more than three times his then total amount of training time and experience).
2. Refining his ability for a further ten years (see above).
3. Studying all he could of the Force for a further ten years (it's worth noting he also soon goes on to obtain Freedon Nadd's holocron, which contained the entirety of Sadow's knowledge, meaning his knowledge base also grew substantially in both quality and quantity).
4. Gaining a far deeper understanding of the dark side (the most notable example being he has now learnt how to use the dark side in conjunction with the emotions that the dark side feeds off of to create a chain reaction that continuously generates more and more power, granting him a potentially unlimited source of power when you factor in the orbalisk armour's "constant" release of dark side energy as I will bring up below).
5. Obtaining the Orbalisk Armour, which continuously pumps his body up with dark side energies, granting him an increase to his raw power in the dark side to boot, and given what I've explained above, the only real power limitation Bane would now possess is how much preparation time he's allowed and how much energy his body and mind can handle.
It's also worth noting that Ruusan (the place where Bane performed the earlier mentioned extraordinary display of power) -- due to the fact that the dark side was spread too thin among the ranks of the BoD, and the fact that the Jedi had joined forces in mass -- was naturally weak in the dark side, meaning the source through which he draws power from was relatively low at the time.
Factoring in all the points above, and it's pretty clear that Bane's level of power is a good million notches above that of the amulet blasts, and there's really no logical reason to assume that thay'd be a factor in this fight.
Later, after his 'far deeper understanding of the dark side' he is fried with his own Force Lightning.
The difference being that he was caught completely off guard with his own lightning in the situation you're referring to and as such wouldn't have been in a position to conjure up a shield in time. We're not arguing how naturally resistant his body (or orbalisks rather) is to such energy, we're arguing how capable he is of circumventing it with the Force. This was completely irrelevant.
If you want to say that Bane's Lightning > The combined efforts of the Brotherhood's elite, go ahead. Please excuse me for laughing at your obviously crippling bias.
Well when you phrase it like that, Bane, while still an initiate and not an hour after first learning how to summon force lightning, was capable of conjuring up a storm large enough to fill an entire room capable of holding hundreds of students, with one release of energy. A completely unprecedented display of the ability while he was still familiarising himself with the technique and the Sith equivalent of a youngling. He's been described as far more powerful than the entire BoD, collectively, and when faced with one of the very elite of the group in the form of Quordis, he was described as casually breaking through his Force defences as if they weren't even there. Kaan, the leader of these elite dark siders, who was later on reflected on as a powerful being by Bane himself, and who was naturally gifted with Force persuasions, had no greater effect on Bane's mind "than a rusted knife scraping against the hide plates of a Halurian ice-boar." It's made quite clear that Bane isn't just better than these dark side elite: he's miles better, and he's since improved substantially (dark side knowledge, refinement, developed power, understanding of the dark side, and even his raw power has grown by virtue of the dark side energies he continuously receives through the orbalisk armour; even the dark side from a cosmic perspective has grown substantially since given that it's now focused in two Sith Lords rather than the previous thousands where it was spread too thin).
I wouldn't say it would be that tall a claim to say that his developed power eclipsed that of 20 or so of his far weaker peers. While he wasn't capable of generating such power back in his PoD days, he was more than capable of channeling it, and factoring in his vast improvement since, it's quite probable.
Bane was UNABLE to create a holocron until after he used the 'subatomic alterations' so it was obviously necessary.
Have you actually read Ro2 Jim, or are you relying on the search button for your info? Because that's quite simply not the case, he had been fitting the crystalline strands in place with such a level of fine control on his very first attempts. His inability to create them had nothing to do with how precisely he had been fitting everything in, but the fact that he hadn't been trapping the capstone within the cognitive network before making the adjustments. Really, know what you're talking about, it gets overly tedious having to explain this midway through a debate when you're expected to know your stuff in the first place.
Not to mention, even if what you're saying had been the case, you're still reaching a false conclusion. Even if the subatomic alterations (let's call those X) had been what had finally enabled him to create them successfully, all that conclusively tells us is that an aspect (could be a part, could be the whole) of X that wasn't present in his earlier attempts was what was necessary. Not necessarily the entirety of X. For instance, perhaps it was necessary that he did it on the atomic level, and that's all that those before him had done. It still puts Bane a good level above, given he goes a step further. Not that any of the above matters, as you're completely wrong about that point, Bane had been making the alterations on his very first attempts; they were not the root of his failings.
We have several options:
1. Everyone used a different method than Bane, which did NOT require subatomic alterations
It's not really a question of methodology but of precision. All Sith holocrons would have had to have been made by fitting everything into place in a set method. The method isn't up for question. How accurately it's done on the other hand is a question of the person itself, and the precision and control s[he] has at his/her disposal.
2. Everyone else used the same method but were so much more competent that they didn't need to make the adjustments (making Bane inept)
Or... as is explained, there was a certain gap in Bane's knowledge, a result of his incomplete instructions, that were ultimately the cause of his failings. Nothing to do with Bane's procedural competence, though if Bane really were inept as you put it, or less competent than the Sith before him, that has... what reflection on his mastery of the Force? None? Ok then. So you could still be open to that possibility and it wouldn't take anything away from what's being argued (Bane's level of mastery and control).
3. Everyone used the same method, and made the same adjustments.
This is getting a bit nitpicky given that I've already more than established my stance, but again, that they used the same method (they did) would have no relation on how accurately and precise the manner they would have done so in.
1. There has been no proof of a different method, and considering Bane learned how to make his holocron from ancient texts, rather than inventing a method on his own, I think we can discard this possibility.
What's interesting is the fact that you're not open to the possibility of
what was actually the case: Bane's instructions being incomplete. He was following somebody else's instructions, but the fact remains that a key, vital piece of information was missing from those instructions, which was leading to the cognitive network degrading before he could fully make all the alterations.
2. It is possible that no one else needed to make the adjustments, but why would Bane run into problems that they did not unless he was bad at the process. There are two possibilities- that he didn't follow directions (making him dumb/irrational) or that he was bad at it (making him inept, and forcing him to adopt a more difficult process). Neither is complementary to Bane, so lets move on.
So because one alternative is uncomplimentary to Bane (in a way that has no relation on his Force ability), we completely discard it? That makes sense. Not that this at all matters, he was following the instructions with perfection, the fact that said instructions were incomplete was beyond his control.
3. Nothing suggests that Bane didn't follow the instructions so we have to believe that he did. If through these instructions he faced a problem, then his precursors would have as well. Therefore, Revan and everyone who made a holocron before Bane would have had to make the 'sub-atomic alterations' we are told about in PoD.[/b]
He is not shown to be able to tank planetary energies outside of ritual, unless you want to say that his own lightning reflected back at him was greater than a planetary scale. That seems excessive.
Already addressed.
Also, the amulets use a different style of attack than Force Lightning. I don't know if we've ever seen someone able to block or deflect a Blast the way we've seen Yoda, Mace or Obi-Wan block Lightning.
They're still both particulate in nature and as such can be physically circumvented through the same methods.
Evasion seems to be the only form of defense.
Evasion seems to be the only form of defence? It's a tangible attack, and as such can be circumvented with an equal or greater opposing physical force, meaning a Force shield or telekinesis would more than do the trick if the user is strong enough. Now we've already established that Bane can wield the Force on a scale lightyears above that of the amulet blasts, so now that it's clear he possesses valid defences as well, there's absolutely no logical basis in claiming that these amulet blasts would so much as make Bane flinch.
If you have examples of someone surviving a direct hit, PLEASE share it- I am admittedly ignorant of the Comics.
I don't, but that's really not at all necessary. These blasts are material in nature, and as such can be physically pushed back.
I thought that because they 'fed on the dark side of the Force' they were especially weak to attacks from that source.
Well that's not the case, their weakness to electricity is never attributed to them feeding off of dark side energy, which would quite frankly makes zero sense.
If it was said to be simple electricity that is their weakness I will concede the point.
It's more shown than stated down, given, as I said, the electricity from a stun rod had the exact same effect on the orbalisks as Force lightning did.
However, it will still be your responsibility to show that the Orbalisks can protect him from such a devastating Force attack.
I never argued that the orbalisks are what would protect Bane from the amulet blasts Jim; for one, the amulet blasts quite easily reach a size that more than fully encompasses a human sized body, and as such Bane's head (as well as a few other small gaps) would be completely vulnerable if all he had protecting him were the orbalisks. I'm not even of the opinion that the orbalisks wold even be a real factor in stopping them. My argument is that Bane's command of the Force will enable him to circumvent them with laughable ease. Again, if he's capable of manipulating energy on a planetary scale, evidence would logically point to him being more than capable of circumventing the street scale amulet blasts.
Taven... you are missing the point. Where is your proof that every sith lord didn't have to make the subatomic alterations that bane did? You keep talking about the "gap in his knowledge"
Okay... so what does that have to do with anything?The gap was not about the sub-atomic alterations. He was following the directions TO THE LETTER in his first few attempts to create a holocron. If he wasn't following them to the letter, and was trying to do his own personal "quality assurance" subatomic manipulations on the holocron, and he kept failing, then he truly is a FOOL. Only a fool would continue to do something different than the directions specify when failure is repeatedly the ultimate conclusion. I don't think Bane a fool. If you do, then go ahead and continue to claim his "unique" holocron ability as a feat. I'll trade you subatomic manipulations for stupidity when discussing bane any day.
Originally posted by Enyalus
Bane is the only one explicitly stated to have done so. There you go.
Which is different than Bane being explicitly stated to have been the only one to do so. Whereas Truejedi can't make the contention that any Darth Joe Blow had to go through the same steps, it would be equally fallacious for Taven (or you) to contend that only Bane had to.
Originally posted by EnyalusBane is the only one explicitly stated to have done so. There you go. [/B]
this is a tad ridiculous. That passage is giving us insight into HOW a sith makes a holocron. Bane was making that thing from a template! we were given some insight into the template. nothing more.
Enyalus, are you telling me that Obi-Wan kenobi is the only jedi capable of reversing polarity in a mechanical arm, getting it to open at an opportune time, simply because he is the only one in the mythos that we see accomplish it?
Because using your logic, then that's FACT. Must put obi-wan near or at the top of ALL force users, if he can do something that NONE of the others can. Yay for Obi-Wan. New Force god, you heard it here first....
Same goes for Bane's gambling, is he the ONLY force user CAPABLE of cheating at cards because he's the only one we see do it? i mean, revan obviously couldn't. Pazaak was pretty straight up with him. So Bane is the GREATEST gambler in the history of the galaxy, and the greatest sith, because he alone can feel when the cards are getting hot....
Just because we see someone do something that is unique to what we know of, it in no way implies he is the only person to have done it. ESPECIALLY when he is using someone else's design to build the holocron.
The book stressed over and over how he was so frustrated because he was following all the directions that he had as perfectly as he could, and the holocrons kept failing. What are the chances that a guy trying to follow directions as perfectly as he can would do anything else to alter the design in any way?
And also: doesn't the books say, "the subatomic alterations necessary for....." If that's the quote, then it says they are necessary for the holocron to exist. Not optional, not innovative, NECESSARY.
I don't get it.. This one's a no-brainer when AN OUNCE of reading comprehension is being applied...
Originally posted by Enyalus
I didn't realize that temporarily reversing the polarity on a piece of metal or using precog to cheat at sabacc was the equal of using the Force to control matter on the subatomic level....But okay. 😉
actually, you can't prove its not.... i mean, what's smaller? a subatomic particle? or a rock? so TECHNICALLY, the subatomic particle is easier to control perhaps that a rock.
Lol, here is where irony guts any argument against it. As Bane IS the only one we actually witness doing it, and the book DOESN'T say it was hard. We have no proof it was hard.