Originally posted by EnyalusOff the top of my head:
"Master Vodo wielded a common quarterstaff in combat as effectively as most Jedi used a lightsaber." (Power of the Jedi Sourcebook)
"My master has been respected for centuries among our fraternity." (Dark Lords of the Sith)[/B]
I'm not denying he wielded it as effectively, but that doesn't translate to 'above average skill.'And 'our fraternity?' The Sith were extinct before Vodo was even born. the only Dark Jedi conflict he'd ever have seen would've been
There are more quotes throughout Dark Lords of the Sith and The Sith War. He's also a Jedi Guardian, Watchman, Master, and Weapons Master. And I don't know whether this part counts or not, but it lists his feats as ambidexterity, combat expertise, combat reflexes, and weapon proficiencies in lightsabers and quarterstaves.
...Weapons Master? The title wasn't even invented yet in the EU. I find nothing listing Vodo as Weapons Master...seems to have as much evidence as him being Grand Master.
And consider Odan freaking Ur, the bar for 'master' is set really low.
And yes, we know Vodo can fight. Problem is, his abilities are just 'get beat by Kun twice.'[Quote]
Last time I checked, using two blades was a kind of Jar'Kai. Which Exar presumably was not trained in.
The fact that he bested Vodo like that is impressive, especially considering that 1) Vodo obviously sparred with all of his padawans in such a manner and no one else was able to break his quarterstaff, and 2) Vodo was responsible for Kun's lightsaber skills, and so should have been intimately familiar with them (see Obi-Wan vs. Anakin's duel for reasons why this would influence the outcome of a battle).
Exar goes berserk on Vodo and assaults him with two saber in the same place. He should not expect his student to flip out, brush the Dark Side and assault him with two sabers and attacks that consist of 'swing with mindless rage.' That's not SKILL in beating an opponent
Yes. Considering he was a weapons master, capable of wielding a quarterstaff well enough to rival most Jedi with their lightsabers, respected throughout the Jedi Order, was a 'wise Jedi Master and historian' who was one of the original keepers of the Tedryn Holocron, was capable of the Sever Force and the Wall of Light Force technique, and able to duel a fully trained and immersed in the Dark Side, Dark Lord of the Sith Exar Kun with a simple quarterstaff.
Going further, Vodo is NOT[/B] Weapons Master and not a single source I can see refers to him as one. Because Nomi studies under him doesn't make him a Weapons Master and this is as tiresome a theory as the one that he was Grand Master because younger Jedi respect him.
And being a wise historian doesn't translate to power. Jocasta Nu was a wise historian. Moreover, the Wall of Light is sever force and we only ever saw Vodo use it in conjunction with numerous other Jedi adding their power to his and even then it was only temporary.
And again, that he could fight as well as most Jedi with his saber means little if any Sith or Jedi above 'competent' can fight above most Jedi or Sith with their abilities.
Vodo isn't talentless, but he's nothing to the big boys and he's a complete idiot to boot. Pop Quiz, Master Vodo! When your student has attacked you in berserker rage, nearly yielding to the Dark Side, do you:
A. Console him and attempt to solve the problem
B. Penalize him
C. Let him run off to one of the darkest reaches of the galaxy.
Question 2: When the same student has returned and cannot be stopped by anyone alone, do you:
A. Surrender to him to figure out a way to beat him later
B. Join your powers with the other Jedi and attempt to subdue him like you did his near equal a very short time ago
C. Fight him with a taped up stick.
If you guessed anything other than C, congrats, you're not Vodo!
Some of his students included legends like Exar Kun, Nomi Sunrider, and Kreia (Krynda Draay). I suppose that they trained under Vodo had absolutely no affect on how powerful they became.
Your bias is outstanding.
Faunus would explain why the feat was impressive better than I could. If he comes in here, I'll let him answer this.
As far as speed, we can't tell how quickly Kun moved because it's a comic. Vodo's speed, however non-canon (RPG stats) included 'rapid strike,' 'combat reflexes,' and 'burst of speed.' I guess they're attempting to tell us that Vodo was fast - yet at the Senate meeting Exar Kun was able to blitz him so quickly that Vodo was forced into a purely defensive action against his former student.
And as far as strength goes, he's able to snap Vodo's quarterstaff in half as a padawan who's lightsaber skills are incomplete.
He's able to, with one hand, lift the Chancellor (?) of the Republic who happens to be a very large alien off the ground and then proceed to tear his head off (again, with only one hand).
If that wasn't enough, in the Kun/Vodo rematch - Kun attempts to convert Vodo to join his Sith brotherhood. When Kun finally sees it is futile one strike is all that it takes to reshatter Vodo's quarterstaff again.
And, I'll remind you and everyone else - his staff was able to withstand multiple blows and had obviously never been shattered before.
If that's still not enough, he uses a double-bladed lightsaber with only a single saber grip.
Why do all other double-bladed lightsaber need the longer, two handed grip? Leverage (read that as strength). That Kun needs merely one hand to generate the power typically afforded to two hands speaks absolute volumes to his sheer physical power.
He should be up there with Bane and Anakin in that department.
[/b]1. In the Dark Lords of the Sith audiobook. He's also referred to throughout The Sith War, Dark Lords of the Sith and in the Dark Side Sourcebook as a 'Master Swordsman.'
2. At that point, sure. But of course, their duel is interrupted.
Let's not forget that Marka Ragnos named Kun as the DLOTS, with Ulic being his apprentice. Not vice versa.
And Marka said what it was
There was a reason for that.
3. I never said he was a Jar'Kai master. That he's able to best his teacher, who is a Jedi Weapons Master and Guardian, while relatively untrained, is completely phenomenal and unheard of.
4. There to kill him? Hardly. First he politely announces himself while Aleema and Ulic are about to get intimate instead of simply sneaking up and killing them.
Then he intentionally knocks Aleema unconscious after she fires a blast at him (as opposed to outright killing her). Then he attempts to humble Ulic and is interrupted.
Oh, I clearly know that the criticism was upon the characters. But saying something like 'Vodo sucked. A complete idiot who is there to do nothing but get his ass kicked.' is baiting, regardless.
If I went into the Superman subform and yelled, "supes sux teh big 1 lulz" or went into the Project Holocron thread ranting about how Corran Horn would kick Darth Sidious' ass and anyone who thinks otherwise is a fanboy - it'd be baiting. [/B]
I don't get it. You hate Bane; fine. You hate TotJ characters; fine. You've bitched about it for months, and it's getting tiresome. Every time you make or even respond to a post about them, it turns into a ridiculous rant about how stupid they are, or how much they suck, or how much better every other character is in comparison. Now, these guys are far from my favorite characters, but the needless tirades are stupid, immature, and annoying as hell. Stick to the facts, and keep the bias to yourself, because it's gotten intolerable.
Originally posted by LS
And 'our fraternity?' The Sith were extinct before Vodo was even born. the only Dark Jedi conflict he'd ever have seen would've been
He was talking about the Jedi Order.
...Weapons Master? The title wasn't even invented yet in the EU. I find nothing listing Vodo as Weapons Master...seems to have as much evidence as him being Grand Master.
Power of the Jedi Sourcebook. I don't make shit up. And I never, ever said that Vodo was Grand Master, so I don't even know where you got that from.
And yes, we know Vodo can fight. Problem is, his abilities are just 'get beat by Kun twice.'
I didn't realize that getting beaten by an extremely powerful Dark Lord of the Sith meant that you were an idiot and you sucked. I suppose Yoda sucked because he lost to Darth Sidious. Or Luke Skywalker sucked because he had his body ripped from his spirit by the 4,000 year old weakened ghost of Exar Kun, huh?
In specific terms? Yes. However, Anakin wasn't trained in Jar'Kai and he pulled off some moves on Dooku for a short time. Exar caught Vodo completely off guard and hammered at him with no apparent skill.
Anakin was familiar with Ataru, of which Jar'Kai is a variation. That he was able to defeat Vodo, his master and lightsaber instructor without any 'apparent skill' simply makes Kun's feat even greater, if we take your interpretation of events.
This isn't equating to great abilities on Kas'im or Raskta levels
I never said that particular feat qualified as such, did I?
When did Vodo 'obviously' spar with Padawans? He challenges Exar because Exar's being an arrogant racist.
I'm sorry, who teaches Vodo's padawans their lightsaber skills if not for their own master?
Exar goes berserk on Vodo and assaults him with two saber in the same place. He should not expect his student to flip out, brush the Dark Side and assault him with two sabers and attacks that consist of 'swing with mindless rage.' That's not SKILL in beating an opponent
If it wasn't skill, then Vodo should've handed Kun his ass as quickly as he did the first time, shouldn't he?
He was not able to 'duel' with Kun, first off. He was able to be toyed with and killed by Kun. Kun was in NO[/B] danger there and Vodo was idiot enough to face him with no means of subduing or killing him without help.
Excellent. You concede that Kun was a lightsaber prodigy, then?
Going further, Vodo is NOT[/B] Weapons Master and not a single source I can see refers to him as one. Because Nomi studies under him doesn't make him a Weapons Master and this is as tiresome a theory as the one that he was Grand Master because younger Jedi respect him.
Yes, he is a weapon's master. It isn't a theory. It is explicitly stated. I don't know where you get the Grand Master part at, because I've never suggested it.
Moreover, the Wall of Light is sever force and we only ever saw Vodo use it in conjunction with numerous other Jedi adding their power to his and even then it was only temporary.
Wrong. Wall of Light, and Sever Force, are two entirely separate abilities. If you don't believe me, and you want a quick source, look at Wookieepedia. I'm not going to provide one for you.
Vodo isn't talentless, but he's nothing to the big boys and he's a complete idiot to boot. Pop Quiz, Master Vodo! When your student has attacked you in berserker rage, nearly yielding to the Dark Side, do you:
A. Console him and attempt to solve the problem
B. Penalize him
C. Let him run off to one of the darkest reaches of the galaxy.
If you've actually read any of the TOTJ stuff, you'd know that that was the old Jedi Order's policy. To let them be free and basically do what they want. It's why so many of the ancient Jedi were married and having children with each other. Rules were different. That was their policy. He wasn't an idiot for following the procedures. And he attempts to help Kun when Kun is injured on Korriban (after Kun asks for his help). It's not like he doesn't care.
Question 2: When the same student has returned and cannot be stopped by anyone alone, do you:
A. Surrender to him to figure out a way to beat him later
B. Join your powers with the other Jedi and attempt to subdue him like you did his near equal a very short time ago
C. Fight him with a taped up stick.
Because what Yoda does concerning Dooku on Vjun is any better....
1. We don't know Krynda is Kreia yet. Otherwise you'd see a lot of "Sion has a ton of Sith artifacts" in vs. forums
Yeah, we do. That it hasn't been confirmed or isn't "officially" canon yet is irrelevant. Make the connection. It's easy.
I'm sorry. Canon evidence please. If there is none, don't use it.
Is there any canon evidence Vodo is fast? At all? Comparable to anyone of note?
I'm sorry, is there ever that kind of evidence for a comic book? All we have in regards to DE Sidious moving fast is your word that the audiobook says so - because it damn sure doesn't mention it in the actual comic or sourcebook.
Because he's using two sabers.
Because that matters? If you hit his staff twice with one saber, it's the same as using two. That he was using two sabers is absolutely irrelevant to the fact that he was able to break it.
And 'tear his head off?' He sank his fingers into the guy's head.
I've looked at it again, and you may be right.
And stop making it seem as if pounding two sabers on an object like an animal is in any way, shape or form a qualification to skill
Make me.
Presumably because Vodo was too stupid to get another staff and just taped the broken one up. Never mind also that Kun had been repeatedly striking the thing throughout their fight.
Right...and it doesn't break then, now does it? Only when he actually decides to kill Vodo. One strike. That's it.
And Vodo had seen combat...when? One canon instance?
And he wouldn't have practiced with his four padawans, why?
He swings it THREE TIMES!THREE TIMES in the ENTIRE comic and in two of them, you can't even see how many hands he uses, in the last, he's swinging with two. We've seen Zannah on the cover of Rule of two and Maul hold their sabers with a single hand, it means Nothing
We see ten shots of it. In seven of those, he's holding it one handed. In one you can't tell how many hands he uses, whereas against Odd yes, two handed. He's shown striking with it one handed once in those panels.
And again...why would Ulic bother to refute a boast like that? Kun hasn't fought anybody else in the Order save Vodo and his fellow trainees...Ulic proves it wrong.
Ulic is also called a 'master swordsman', a 'great Jedi warrior and Master,' and 'very strong in the Ways of the Force.' They stalemate until Ragnos interrupts. It'd be like looking at the Obi-Wan/Vader fight before the, "Don't try it, Anakin" part.
Because of Kun, the Sith would never die. Marka explained the reasoning
And...why did he say that? Because Exar Kun was more powerful? Unless you want to make a case for Marka Ragnos, one of the most powerful Sith of all time, choosing the weaker being as DLOTS.
No, he attempts to kill Ulic and fails when Ulic matches him.
And right after Ragnos, everything is cool and fine between them and they're shown clasping hands. Okay.
Originally posted by EnyalusHe was talking about the Jedi Order.
Power of the Jedi Sourcebook. I don't make shit up. And I never, ever said that Vodo was Grand Master, so I don't even know where you got that from.
And a few people once got it into their heads Vodo was the Grandmaster of the order...I merely meant it as comparison.
I didn't realize that getting beaten by an extremely powerful Dark Lord of the Sith meant that you were an idiot and you sucked. I suppose Yoda sucked because he lost to Darth Sidious. Or Luke Skywalker sucked because he had his body ripped from his spirit by the 4,000 year old weakened ghost of Exar Kun, huh?
Anakin was familiar with Ataru, of which Jar'Kai is a variation. That he was able to defeat Vodo, his master and lightsaber instructor without any 'apparent skill' simply makes Kun's feat even greater, if we take your interpretation of events.
I never said that particular feat qualified as such, did I?
I'm sorry, who teaches Vodo's padawans their lightsaber skills if not for their own master?
If it wasn't skill, then Vodo should've handed Kun his ass as quickly as he did the first time, shouldn't he?
Excellent. You concede that Kun was a lightsaber prodigy, then?
Yes, he is a weapon's master. It isn't a theory. It is explicitly stated. I don't know where you get the Grand Master part at, because I've never suggested it.
Wrong. Wall of Light, and Sever Force, are two entirely separate abilities. If you don't believe me, and you want a quick source, look at Wookieepedia. I'm not going to provide one for you.
If you've actually read any of the TOTJ stuff, you'd know that that was the old Jedi Order's policy. To let them be free and basically do what they want.
It's why so many of the ancient Jedi were married and having children with each other. Rules were different. That was their policy.
He wasn't an idiot for following the procedures. And he attempts to help Kun when Kun is injured on Korriban (after Kun asks for his help). It's not like he doesn't care.
Because what Yoda does concerning Dooku on Vjun is any better....
Yeah, we do. That it hasn't been confirmed or isn't "officially" canon yet is irrelevant. Make the connection. It's easy.
I'm sorry, is there ever that kind of evidence for a comic book? All we have in regards to DE Sidious moving fast is your word that the audiobook says so - because it damn sure doesn't mention it in the actual comic or sourcebook.
Because that matters? If you hit his staff twice with one saber, it's the same as using two. That he was using two sabers is absolutely irrelevant to the fact that he was able to break it.
I've looked at it again, and you may be right.
Make me.
Right...and it doesn't break then, now does it? Only when he actually decides to kill Vodo. One strike. That's it.
And he wouldn't have practiced with his four padawans, why?
We see ten shots of it. In seven of those, he's holding it one handed. In one you can't tell how many hands he uses, whereas against Odd yes, two handed. He's shown striking with it one handed once in those panels.
Ulic is also called a 'master swordsman', a 'great Jedi warrior and Master,' and 'very strong in the Ways of the Force.' They stalemate until Ragnos interrupts. It'd be like looking at the Obi-Wan/Vader fight before the, "Don't try it, Anakin" part.
And...why did he say that? Because Exar Kun was more powerful?
Unless you want to make a case for Marka Ragnos, one of the most powerful Sith of all time, choosing the weaker being as DLOTS.
And right after Ragnos, everything is cool and fine between them and they're shown clasping hands. Okay. [/B]
Fact is, Exar was there to kill him. It's directly said he's there to eliminate his rivals
Originally posted by Jbill311Bane was UNABLE to create a holocron until after he used the 'subatomic alterations' so it was obviously necessary. We have several options:
1. Everyone used a different method than Bane, which did NOT require subatomic alterations
2. Everyone else used the same method but were so much more competent that they didn't need to make the adjustments (making Bane inept)
3. Everyone used the same method, and made the same adjustments.
1. There has been no proof of a different method, and considering Bane learned how to make his holocron from ancient texts, rather than inventing a method on his own, I think we can discard this possibility.
2. It is possible that no one else needed to make the adjustments, but why would Bane run into problems that they did not unless he was bad at the process. There are two possibilities- that he didn't follow directions (making him dumb/irrational) or that he was bad at it (making him inept, and forcing him to adopt a more difficult process). Neither is complementary to Bane, so lets move on.
3. Nothing suggests that Bane didn't follow the instructions so we have to believe that he did. If through these instructions he faced a problem, then his precursors would have as well. Therefore, Revan and everyone who made a holocron before Bane would have had to make the 'sub-atomic alterations' we are told about in PoD.[/B]
Originally posted by truejedi
well said, someone needed to give that reply to Taven MONTHS ago. Its obvious to everyone but him.
Thank you. It took me about 15 minutes to think through the options- I kept getting distracted with "didn't LS already deal with this?"
Edit: how long you think until he responds?
Two things in response to LS's post. Regarding the weapons master part, page 103:
"Vodo-Siosk Baas: Male Krevaaki Jedi Guardian 5/Jedi Weapon Master 6/Jedi Master 3;"
Just prior to where the non-canon stats begin. The above is just simply listing what he is.
As far as what Jedi vs. Sith says - I'll look at that myself. Because you and I both know that Wall of Light is not the same as Sever Force. Wall of Light is not even close to being permanant. It's what they do to Ulic to bring him into custody. Compare that to the Force Sever Nomi uses on him later. The sourcebook must have an error in it (wouldn't be the first time - I heard the NEC had lots of them).
The rest, no offense, I'm not going to reply to. In both scenarios in this thread I've said Bane would win, so we seem to agree there. I only used Vodo as an example because we have little evidence for Kun fighting many other strong people (Yes, I believe Vodo qualifies as that) and the Ulic/Kun fight was inconclusive. Thanks for being nice in that last post. 😉
As far as the speed thing goes - Vodo's staff is shown as 3-4 staves at one point, while Kun's blade is leaves an afterimage of 6 (IIRC...I put the comic away for the night). Dunno if that would indicate speed to you, or movement.
Is it, like a common tactic to hid until everyone has forgotten how dumb you are? Knightfa11 is trying it too, and its really pissing me off. I was hoping for an actual debate (and I use the term lightly) but he just slinked off. Any chance I won't have to quote myself at him and Taven when they come back? That is, that they will attempt to address my points?
Originally posted by Jbill311
Thank you. It took me about 15 minutes to think through the options- I kept getting distracted with "didn't LS already deal with this?"Edit: how long you think until he responds?
well, honestly, i'm surprised he hasn't already. He used to be right on it, but i've noticed Neb has been less hardcore about KMC lately, which doesn't leave it lacking at all....
He'll come back with something that looks like.
1. Right because, you can't assume that bane didn't alter the plans to make his own unique holocron which was obviously way better than the rest because he alone moved molecules around... Strawman strawman!
2. Wrong, because Bane moved his lightsaber so fast that it could barely be seen by the greatest master's ever, and he once owned Kas'im who is arguebly 2nd to only Bane ever in combat, and Luke is overrated and others are better too, so that's a strawman.
3. That's probably not true either, but i'm not sure why.... so straw man. and Occum's Razor too, to prove i'm right.
(there, feel free to refute my brilliance, and i'll be back as Taven2 to tell you more!)
Originally posted by truejedi
well, honestly, i'm surprised he hasn't already. He used to be right on it, but i've noticed Neb has been less hardcore about KMC lately, which doesn't leave it lacking at all....
He'll come back with something that looks like.1. Right because, you can't assume that bane didn't alter the plans to make his own unique holocron which was obviously way better than the rest because he alone moved molecules around... Strawman strawman!
2. Wrong, because Bane moved his lightsaber so fast that it could barely be seen by the greatest master's ever, and he once owned Kas'im who is arguebly 2nd to only Bane ever in combat, and Luke is overrated and others are better too, so that's a strawman.
3. That's probably not true either, but i'm not sure why.... so straw man. and Occum's Razor too, to prove i'm right.
(there, feel free to refute my brilliance, and i'll be back as Taven2 to tell you more!)
I don't think I can 😱 OH NOES
Except:
1. burden of proof, and The narrative explicitly contradicts it. TAVEN YOU FAIL
2. Lightsaber speed isn't relavent. TAVEN YOU FAIL.
3. I actually have an essay (by my master) for the next person to try to actually use this on me. So... TAVEN YOU FAIL
😆
You make me laugh.
Originally posted by Enyalus
Two things in response to LS's post. Regarding the weapons master part, page 103:"Vodo-Siosk Baas: Male Krevaaki Jedi Guardian 5/Jedi Weapon Master 6/Jedi Master 3;"
Just prior to where the non-canon stats begin. The above is just simply listing what he is.
Check some other Jedi...I'm sure you'll see 'weapons masters' on more than one, too.
As far as what Jedi vs. Sith says - I'll look at that myself. Because you and I both know that Wall of Light is not the same as Sever Force. Wall of Light is not even close to being permanant. It's what they do to Ulic to bring him into custody.
Compare that to the Force Sever Nomi uses on him later. The sourcebook must have an error in it (wouldn't be the first time - I heard the NEC had lots of them).
The rest, no offense, I'm not going to reply to. In both scenarios in this thread I've said Bane would win, so we seem to agree there. I only used Vodo as an example because we have little evidence for Kun fighting many other strong people (Yes, I believe Vodo qualifies as that) and the Ulic/Kun fight was inconclusive. Thanks for being nice in that last post. 😉
As far as the speed thing goes - Vodo's staff is shown as 3-4 staves at one point, while Kun's blade is leaves an afterimage of 6 (IIRC...I put the comic away for the night). Dunno if that would indicate speed to you, or movement. [/B]