Dath Bane v. Exar Kun

Started by Darth_Glentract6 pages

Hey whats up dude

Where the hell did Glentract come from?

What do you mean?

Originally posted by Borbarad
Description of items aren't "game mechanics", Lightsnake.

They're of dubious canonicity At best unless they appear outside and to date? To my knowledge only the Qel-Droma robe has.
Unless we want to argue that Freedon Nadd's blaster somehow killed more Jedi than any Lightsaber when he never met a single Jedi after he fled the Order to date?

Where was it said that it was the "first" cortosis suit that was constructed after the death of Kun, eh? And no, lightsnake. According to the SW RPG rules a cortosis weave armor is going to short-circuit lightsabers.


Evil Never Dies: the sith Dynasties, by Lorian Nod, a member of the Brotherhood who fled at war's end.
And no, Nai, according to actual canon, there are two types: Weave and ore
Pure cortosis ore will deactivate a saber, as seen in the Thrawn Duology, Purge, Legacy and the Clone Wars comics.
Weave, as seen in 'Rite of Passage,' Path of Destruction and others, it just blocks them. In KOTOR, Cortosis 'Weave' is the one specifically said to stop a saber

The reason given is that cortosis is brittle and needs to be mixed with other metals but loses its shutdown capabilities.


The Cortosis alloy weapons don't do the job. Weave and ore of Cortosis do.

Weave is specifically referred to in several places as what blocks. Ore is the deactivater.


He's taller, yes. Doesn't mean anything.

Do you really think a seven foot tall fighter whose head is his only vulnerable spot is somehow not going to have an advantage against the shorter man?


Faster? Right. You may notice the situation where Kun is attempting to take the scroll from Nadds tomb and is stopped by the two Naddist armed with blasters. Before one of them can do so much and pull the trigger, Kun pulls out his lightsaber, cuts the first down, switches the weapon hand, crosses several metres of distance and cuts the second down. Talk about speed.

Ok. So Kun does something that any force sensitive should be able to do and kills two Non-Force sensitive Naddist thugs before they can react.
How about you give me an actually impressive speed feat. Against a Force Sensitive.
and 'several meters?' They're right in front of him. If this is speed, how about Lord Kopecz who sees a squad of soldiers coming at him on the Republic flagship in the first battle of Ruusan, butchers the entire squad of Republic troopers before all but one can get a shot off? With his saber? And even then he notes she must have been really good for that. If we're measuring it on that, Kopecz>>>>Kun in speed.

And when did he switch weapon hands? He's holding the scrolls with his left hand when he emerges...when he cuts down the scrolls...he cuts down the first Naddist, then the other...and the scrolls are still in his left hand.

Bane, by contrast, is able to fend off both Raskta Lsu of all people and Farfalla simultaneously. It takes Johun providing enough of a distraction to even make it an impasse with Bane's orbalisks. In another instance, it's said Bane seems to be wielding a dozen sabers at once when he assaults Zannah.

When he's younger-and this, by the by, is without the orbalisks pumping adrenaline into him, making him stronger and faster, he defeats Sirak by delivering a chop to the arm and then breaks his leg.
to the entirety of the spectators, including Blademaster Kas'im, Bane has merely moved as a blur and it takes them a moment to register what had happened. According to Kaan and Kopecz, these apprentices are amongst the most powerful of the Order and this isn't done against two blaster wielding thugs, but a force sensitive sith apprentice. even Johun Othone is described as moving faster than the eye can see when he takes out two of the blaster wielding terrorists attacking the Chancellor.

I'm not doubting Kun is likely very fast. But faster than Bane? With the orbalisks feeding him?


Strength? Right. Kun is just capable of pushing his finger through the skull of the Republic Chancellor and then lift the alien from the ground with his fingers in the alien skull and just one arm.

Jerec is able to lift a man off the ground when the guy is wearing a suit with miniature tractor beams in his boosts. If you are going to argue for a second that picking up and grinding your fingers into the head of a boneless alien really compares to Bane, who was a physical powerhouse before he even joined the sith-seven foot mountain of muscle...then he learned how to amplify himself with the Force, THEN he got the Orbalisks.
Farfalla reflects in the fight that Bane is too strong physically as well as in the Dark Side. An elbow from him lifts Raskta Lsu up off her feet and sends her flying. A single blow from his saber was enough to disarm Farfalla-who was capable of handling Kopecz's dying fury without much apparent problems.


That aside from pushing a Cathar Jedi down on her knees which just one arm.

He catches her off guard by grabbing and shoving her in a burst of rage. You're making this seem like sylar was actively resisting him at the time.

Is this really comparable to a single strike disarming a Jedi Master who's fully prepared to engage you. Said Jedi master being a council member and war veteran.


And Bane being more powerful? That actually begs for proof, considering Kun's force showings in direct combat [resisting the most potent lightside attack there is, tossing people around as if they were ragdolls] as well as Kun's greater force works [freezing or mind-controlling the individuals in the Senate, the Sith ritual at the end of his life]. That aside from the fact that Kun possessed "more knowledge than he could ever use".

If we want to play the ritual game, Bane channeled a force capable of deforesting and altering the entire climate of Ruusan-and don't deny, this was him channeling all of it. He was the one in control and they were even afraid he was going to suck them dry, being too powerful in the Force for two battle hardened and powerful Jedi simultaneously, generating lightning capable of burning three humans at once to ash and bones-with one hand, and turning their giant Drexl to a charred hulk. He routinely shatters protection barriers of rather powerful people with his attacks, a desperate Force Wave brought down the entire Temple of the Ancients... His raw potential was rather amazing and in three years, with no prior training in the Force at all, he became the most powerful member of the Brotherhood and probably the most powerful Force user in the galaxy. He's able to resist the effects of the Thought Bomb, disintegrate technobeasts...if we look at the showings in direct combat, Bane rips through force barriers of powerful Force Users like they aren't even there. The only person to apparently be resistant to that was Kas'im and only then because it was a desperate lash out from a weakened, drained and injured Bane that wasn't anything close to the focused attacks he uses on others.

He obliterates the spirits of Qordis and Kaan when he emerges from the tomb of Nadd on Dxun, is able to bear the Orbalisks and even uses the constant agony as a source of fuel for himself

And don't forget his knowledge-from Revan, Nadd-who's knowledge encompasses what Kun knows and likely surpasses it- and Belia Darzu. He has all of that and by Rule of Two, he's had ten years to improve.
Bane is an absolute beast with the Force, it's pretty undeniable. he made the most powerful people of his time look like children after he got Revan's Holocron and only got stronger since


The armor has more than one vulnerable spot, apparently. Any joints would be vunerable, meaning that the orbalisk armor would have vunerable spots at the knees, ankles, elbows, shoulders, wrists, hibs and of course the neck and the head.

His neck is protected, the head is not. The only vulnerable spots at all are the wrists and head that we know of and Johun could only note the former-considering Bane wears gloves- after a lengthy battle whereupon Bane's clothing had mostly been sliced away when Bane was having to also occupy his time with Farfalla and the greatest swordsbeing in the galaxy.

Frankly, I sincerely doubt anyone who doesn't possess a Shatterpoint ability is going to be able to perceive those gaps.


The curved hilt is not a "style", Lightsnake. It just allows greater precission, which doesn't matter. Even less considering that Kun mastered Bane's style.

Ok, not a 'style,' but you understand what I was getting at
Mastered Bane's style, huh? When is Kun known as a Djem So user?
And yes, Nai, it does matter. Anyone can tell Bane uses Djem So pretty easily. However, Farfalla notes Bane's saber gives him a unique advantage over the other three-and with the exception of Johun, they're not an unskilled lot at all.
Bane and Farfalla both note Bane's curved hilt alters his strikes by just enough that if Raskta hadn't yelled out a warning to Farfalla, Bane would've taken his arm immediately, and this is Farfalla amped up on BM. A curved hilt is described as having an advantage in dueling with every form


And yes...it won't take Bane long to adapt to an unfamiliar style, hence Kas'im kicked his ass through the entire temple.

Not just ANY Jar'Kai user was going to get that done. Kas'im was possibly the greatest swordsman ever according to PoD and Jar'Kai was apparently his specialty and trump. This is also at a point when Bane is younger, more arrogant-Kas'im'd be dead if Bane didn't pause in the doorway, Kas'im even said as much...that, and Bane's quite a bit more familiar with Jar'kai ten years hence.
By the same token, Bane's mastery with the saber can probably be said to exceed Kun's. Familiarity inside and out with all the known forms of his time, the DBL, Jar'Kai after the whole Kas'im thing and his curved hilt style giving him an advantage-did the KOTOR era even have curved hilts?

The only style Bane was unfamiliar with was Jar'Kai then...Kas'im had trained him fluently in everything else and the DBL to boot. Throw that in with insta healing injuries, the orbalisks feeding into him and pain fueled force screams, Bane is pretty damn something in a straight fight. I believe Kun's a very good swordsman, one of the best who ever lived. However, with available evidence, I can't say he surpasses Bane there.


And Kun's sword isn't a regular DBL: It has a short hilt, is wielded with one hand by Kun

This needs to be proven. He swings it thrice and only once can we see the number of hands he's using and it's both.
Sarro Xaj wasn't wielding a 'regular' DBL either, but a giant, ten foot long monster of a weapon that he was also able to twirl around himself with one hand, IIRC. And recall, as it stands now, Kun did not invent the style or the lightsaber given JvS said he was following instructions from the Exiles' Holocron.
Point is, this isn't going to guarantee an instant kill. The only reason Raskta survived more than a few moments into the fight was Farfalla-she, like Exar, isn't aware of the Orbalisks and the curved hilt saber makes just as much a difference. I can provide the quotes on that if you like.


and the guy can alter the blade-length and internsity using the force.

He can, but orbalisks are not going to cut through and altering blade length isn't much help against Bane there.
Also, most sabers can alter in intensity

Yeah, right. Because Bane encountered so many master duellist during his career that he managed to outduel, right?[/Quote]
Erm...yeah?
He had Kas'im outdueled until the Jar'Kai trick-something that won't work on Rule of Two Bane, he had Raskta beaten pretty early if not for Farfalla...he had Farfalla, a powerful Jedi Master and master duelist in his own right beaten from the get go until Raskta saved him-and both of them are on Battle Meditation...Qordis acknowledged that Bane could kill him just as easily with his saber as with the Force...when Kas'im was dead, there was no other Sith a match for Bane with a saber. None.

By that logic, how many master duelists has Exar faced during his career that he has managed to outduel? He stalemated Ulic, killed Vodo-and there's really very little telling us Vodo is to the level of the elites we're talking....and I think that's really it.


I, personally, had the impression that he won most of his fight by superior force powers. An advantage he probably won't have against Exar Kun. [/B]

As far as dueling ability goes, Ro2 Bane is extremely broken and his Force Power is just as broken.
He won his fight with Kas'im via the Force, yes, but if not for the Jar'Kai and Bane's utter unfamiliarity coupled with Kas'im being probably the best Jar'Kai duelist who'd ever lived to that point as well as Kas'im being perfectly familiar with the curved hilt saber and Bane stopping to savor his victory, Kas'im was a dead man and Bane's learned never to allow his opponents a chance like he did Kas'im again.
But that aside:
Sirak? Ok, Sirak's position as a 'master duelist' is a bit sketchy, but this is a much younger and weaker Bane and he's able to toy with the very least extremely skilled Sirak, and disable him without using the Force once.
The Umbarans? Bane kills them all with his saber, I believe. And Umbaran Shadow assassins aren't weaklings.
The big Jedi fight? None of them, even with BM, are a match for Bane with dueling ability or strength in the Force and it takes the trio of them to put it at an impasse. When Raskta is dead, Bane duels Farfalla for moments before relieving him of his head. Bane's dueling skills are pretty exceptional and it's hard to deny...the Orbalisks are the big draw for him, though

And I assure you, in the third book, we'll see Bane defeating the entire Jedi Order, mindwiping them and then going back to have a latte with how Karpyshyn's been doing

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Which is that?

Rule of two. Bane gets much stronger

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Rule of two. Bane gets much stronger

I read that and there was nothing in it that led me to believe that he could take the likes of Kun

It's hilarious to see you arguing from a pro-Bane POV, LS. LOL!

Three points: Bane is 6'6'', not 7''. According to Wookieepedia, Kun is 1.9 meters, which is nearly 6'3''. Not a big height difference.

JvS says that Kun might have gotten the design for his saber from the Exiles Holocron. It's not certain. And it also isn't certain that the holocron was even from the Exiles.

And my third point regards 'And I assure you, in the third book, we'll see Bane defeating the entire Jedi Order, mindwiping them and then going back to have a latte with how Karpyshyn's been doing'...

...Okay, so, the Jedi think the Sith are extinct until Maul kills Qui-Gon. But yet they automatically know that 'Always two there are. A master and an apprentice.' But, they believe the Sith to be extinct after the Battle of Ruusan - before the Rule of Two was used. So how, exactly, do the Jedi know this? Does Bane decide to magically leave a replica of his holocron for the Jedi Archives? Did GL f*ck up yet again with his storyline?

The way I look at it, Palpatine and Yoda were in on it from the beginning. But when Palpatine enacted Order 66 and attempted to screw Yoda, he decided to strike back at the Emperor. When that failed, he went back to his "old Jedi sage" routine. I mean, come on, he's a demonstrably proficient liar. And no one that perceptive would be unable to sense the decline of the Republic. The obvious conclusion is that Yoda was Sidious's true apprentice.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Three points: Bane is 6'6'', not 7''. According to Wookieepedia, Kun is 1.9 meters, which is nearly 6'3''. Not a big height difference

Why would their height matter at all. I guess Yoda must be weaker than the average padawan cause he's shorter. Paul Anderson (the strongest man who has ever lived) was 5'9. Not that tall.

Originally posted by Enyalus
It's hilarious to see you arguing from a pro-Bane POV, LS. LOL!

Three points: Bane is 6'6'', not 7''. According to Wookieepedia, Kun is 1.9 meters, which is nearly 6'3''. Not a big height difference.


Fair 'nough

JvS says that Kun might have gotten the design for his saber from the Exiles Holocron. It's not certain. And it also isn't certain that the holocron was even from the Exiles.

They said new information arises....as it is, though, his inventive talents are called in question

And my third point regards 'And I assure you, in the third book, we'll see Bane defeating the entire Jedi Order, mindwiping them and then going back to have a latte with how Karpyshyn's been doing'...

...Okay, so, the Jedi think the Sith are extinct until Maul kills Qui-Gon. But yet they automatically know that 'Always two there are. A master and an apprentice.' But, they believe the Sith to be extinct after the Battle of Ruusan - before the Rule of Two was used. So how, exactly, do the Jedi know this? Does Bane decide to magically leave a replica of his holocron for the Jedi Archives? Did GL f*ck up yet again with his storyline?


How is this GL's fault? If anything, it's Karpyshyn's...Yoda probably fights some Sith and kills him at one point.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
I read that and there was nothing in it that led me to believe that he could take the likes of Kun

Did you read my post? If anything, Kun's displayed a lack of ability in regards to combat that would equate to taking Bane.

Originally posted by Gideon
The way I look at it, Palpatine and Yoda were in on it from the beginning. But when Palpatine enacted Order 66 and attempted to screw Yoda, he decided to strike back at the Emperor. When that failed, he went back to his "old Jedi sage" routine. I mean, come on, he's a demonstrably proficient liar. And no one that perceptive would be unable to sense the decline of the Republic. The obvious conclusion is that Yoda was Sidious's true apprentice.

That is blasphemy, Gideon! It is obvious that Sidious was Yoda's apprentice. Zannah's apprentice was clearly Yoda's master. And Plagueis was simply a puppet, designed to throw off Palpatine's perceptions of who was really pulling the strings in the Sith Order. Once Palpatine discovers the truth....treachery is the way of the Sith.

I hope I am wording this right, but what bothers me about Kun possibly learning about the DBL design from the exiles is then why didn't anyone else use the same hilt design as Kun since he supposedly didn't invent it according to JvS.

Originally posted by Enyalus
It's hilarious to see you arguing from a pro-Bane POV, LS. LOL!

And my third point regards 'And I assure you, in the third book, we'll see Bane defeating the entire Jedi Order, mindwiping them and then going back to have a latte with how Karpyshyn's been doing'...

...Okay, so, the Jedi think the Sith are extinct until Maul kills Qui-Gon. But yet they automatically know that 'Always two there are. A master and an apprentice.' But, they believe the Sith to be extinct after the Battle of Ruusan - before the Rule of Two was used. So how, exactly, do the Jedi know this? Does Bane decide to magically leave a replica of his holocron for the Jedi Archives? Did GL f*ck up yet again with his storyline?

I thought that Bane distilled the Rule of Two from Revan's teachings. After all, Revan only took one apprentice. Yoda might have been referring to the idea that since the Brotherhood was destroyed, the rule would default to just two sith.

Problem is, there's no evidence the Jedi knew that and Bane destroyed the Holocron

LET MY SUSPENSION OF DISBELIEF STAND!!!!!! STAR WARS IS COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY INTERNALLY CONSISTENT!!!!!!

Maybe in the third book we'll have a revelation to the Jedi (from Zannah) about their numbers in a bungled attempt to emulate Bane's "subtle plans" (Rule of Two- the book said it- not me)

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
I thought that Bane distilled the Rule of Two from Revan's teachings. After all, Revan only took one apprentice. Yoda might have been referring to the idea that since the Brotherhood was destroyed, the rule would default to just two sith.

Meh, Rivan's Empire and Kaan's came after Revan, though. Both using the multiple Sith rule.

Originally posted by Gideon
The way I look at it, Palpatine and Yoda were in on it from the beginning. But when Palpatine enacted Order 66 and attempted to screw Yoda, he decided to strike back at the Emperor. When that failed, he went back to his "old Jedi sage" routine. I mean, come on, he's a demonstrably proficient liar. And no one that perceptive would be unable to sense the decline of the Republic. The obvious conclusion is that Yoda was Sidious's true apprentice.

I orgasmed from the sheer epicness of that idea.