Dath Bane v. Exar Kun

Originally posted by Taven
That he performed the display of power in the ritual is irrelevant. It's not like he was in a meditative stance Jim; he was stood in the centre, surrounded by his peers, and drawing in all of their power into his body. It would be the combat situation equivalent of him being surrounded on all angles by hostile enemy combatants and having them all simultaneously hurl attacks at him. It's a demonstration of power that he'd be capable of replicating in almost any situation (one of the exceptions perhaps being in the middle of a close combat saber confrontation), and one that puts him in the same category as the likes of Darth Nihilus and Luke Skywalker as someone that can manipulate the Force on the planetary level. And this before:

He is only shown to be able to 'absorb' lightning from allies when he is ready, and it is not done at a moment's notice. He has time to prepare himself, he was expecting it, and he knew exactly how much power/energy he could take. To say that a feat completed during a controlled ritual could easily be done in combat is just naive. When another person is trying to kill you there is a lot different atmosphere than there was here, and put simply: This is NOT a combat feat, it shows his raw power level, but we have proof that he can NOT absorb lightning in combat. When he is encased in a bubble with his OWN lightning, he is charred to a crisp. As I have said, the idea that Bane's lightning, even powered by orbalisks, is > the Brotherhood's elite is laughable. He is not able to do it instantly, or else he would just have absorbed his own lightning. It is possible that if he knows that he's going to be shot at with lightning he would be able to absorb it, but there is NO WAY that he would know when the blast would actually be coming. If he had enough

1. Developing his power for a further ten years (more than three times his then total amount of training time and experience).

2. Refining his ability for a further ten years (see above).

3. Studying all he could of the Force for a further ten years (it's worth noting he also soon goes on to obtain Freedon Nadd's holocron, which contained the entirety of Sadow's knowledge, meaning his knowledge base also grew substantially in both quality and quantity).

4. Gaining a far deeper understanding of the dark side (the most notable example being he has now learnt how to use the dark side in conjunction with the emotions that the dark side feeds off of to create a chain reaction that continuously generates more and more power, granting him a potentially unlimited source of power when you factor in the orbalisk armour's "constant" release of dark side energy as I will bring up below).

5. Obtaining the Orbalisk Armour, which continuously pumps his body up with dark side energies, granting him an increase to his raw power in the dark side to boot, and given what I've explained above, the only real power limitation Bane would now possess is how much preparation time he's allowed and how much energy his body and mind can handle.

[i]Originally posted by Taven
It's also worth noting that Ruusan (the place where Bane performed the earlier mentioned extraordinary display of power) -- due to the fact that the dark side was spread too thin among the ranks of the BoD, and the fact that the Jedi had joined forces in mass -- was naturally weak in the dark side, meaning the source through which he draws power from was relatively low at the time.

Originally posted by Taven
Factoring in all the points above, and it's pretty clear that Bane's level of power is a good million notches above that of the amulet blasts, and there's really no logical reason to assume that thay'd be a factor in this fight.

Originally posted by Taven

The difference being that he was caught completely off guard with his own lightning in the situation you're referring to and as such wouldn't have been in a position to conjure up a shield in time. We're not arguing how naturally resistant his body (or orbalisks rather) is to such energy, we're arguing how capable he is of circumventing it with the Force. This was completely irrelevant.

Originally posted by Taven

I wouldn't say it would be that tall a claim to say that his developed power eclipsed that of 20 or so of his far weaker peers. While he wasn't capable of generating such power back in his PoD days, he was more than capable of channeling it, and factoring in his vast improvement since, it's quite probable.

Originally posted by Taven Have you actually read Ro2 Jim, or are you relying on the search button for your info? Because that's quite simply not the case, he had been fitting the crystalline strands in place with such a level of fine control on his very first attempts. His inability to create them had nothing to do with how precisely he had been fitting everything in, but the fact that he hadn't been trapping the capstone within the cognitive network before making the adjustments. Really, know what you're talking about, it gets overly tedious having to explain this midway through a debate when you're expected to know your stuff in the first place.

Star Wars-Darth Bane: Rule of Two
He had made his firs attempt five years before. Using Feedon Nadd's Holocron as a blueprint, he had re-created the intricate matrix of lattices and vertices that were the key to storing nearly infinite amounts of knowledge in a data system small enough to fit in the palm of a hand. It had taken months to gather and fashion the rare crystal into the filaments and fibers of the interlaced network, followed by weeks of delicate and painstaking adjustments. The matrix had to fall within highly exacting specifications, and Bane had spent hundreds of hours making thousands of precise, subatomic alterations through the power of the Force to ensure that each crystalline strand was properly in place.
Once the crystal matrix inside the Holocron was ready, he had carefully transcribed the ancient symbols of Sith Power onto the pyramid's surface. The markings were part of a powerful ritual that was critical to maintaining the stability of the matrix after it was infused with the energies of the dark side. Unfamiliar with the exact purpose of the arcane glyphs, Darth Bane had once again used Nadd's Holocron as his guide, studying the markings etched on the surface, then copying them exactly on his own creation.
But when he tried to activate the Holocron by channeling his power through it, the matrix imploded, collapsing in on itself and reducing the artifact to a pile of glimmering dust in a crackling white flash.
He had tried again several months later, only to be met with the exact same result. Forced to admit that the secret of crafting Holocrons was still beyond him, Bane had begun a campaign to discover everything he could about the powerful talismans.[zannah helps]

Originally posted by Taven

Not to mention, even if what you're saying had been the case, you're still reaching a false conclusion. Even if the subatomic alterations (let's call those X) had been what had finally enabled him to create them successfully, all that conclusively tells us is that an aspect (could be a part, could be the whole) of X that wasn't present in his earlier attempts was what was necessary. Not necessarily the entirety of X. For instance, perhaps it was necessary that he did it on the atomic level, and that's all that those before him had done. It still puts Bane a good level above, given he goes a step further. Not that any of the above matters, as you're completely wrong about that point, Bane had been making the alterations on his very first attempts; they were not the root of his failings.

Originally posted by Taven
It's not really a question of methodology but of precision. All Sith holocrons would have had to have been made by fitting everything into place in a set method. The method isn't up for question. How accurately it's done on the other hand is a question of the person itself, and the precision and control s[he] has at his/her disposal.

Originally posted by Taven
This is getting a bit nitpicky given that I've already more than established my stance, but again, that they used the same method (they did) would have no relation on how accurately and precise the manner they would have done so in.

Originally posted by Taven

What's interesting is the fact that you're not open to the possibility of
what was actually the case: Bane's instructions being incomplete. He was following somebody else's instructions, but the fact remains that a key, vital piece of information was missing from those instructions, which was leading to the cognitive network degrading before he could fully make all the alterations.

Originally posted by Taven

So because one alternative is uncomplimentary to Bane (in a way that has no relation on his Force ability), we completely discard it? That makes sense. Not that this at all matters, he was following the instructions with perfection, the fact that said instructions were incomplete was beyond his control.

Originally posted by Taven

They're still both particulate in nature and as such can be physically circumvented through the same methods.

Originally posted by Taven

Evasion seems to be the only form of defence? It's a tangible attack, and as such can be circumvented with an equal or greater opposing physical force, meaning a Force shield or telekinesis would more than do the trick if the user is strong enough. Now we've already established that Bane can wield the Force on a scale lightyears above that of the amulet blasts, so now that it's clear he possesses valid defences as well, there's absolutely no logical basis in claiming that these amulet blasts would so much as make Bane flinch.

Originally posted by Taven
Well that's not the case, their weakness to electricity is never attributed to them feeding off of dark side energy, which would quite frankly makes zero sense.

Originally posted by Taven

It's more shown than stated down, given, as I said, the electricity from a stun rod had the exact same effect on the orbalisks as Force lightning did.

Originally posted by Taven

I never argued that the orbalisks are what would protect Bane from the amulet blasts Jim; for one, the amulet blasts quite easily reach a size that more than fully encompasses a human sized body, and as such Bane's head (as well as a few other small gaps) would be completely vulnerable if all he had protecting him were the orbalisks. I'm not even of the opinion that the orbalisks wold even be a real factor in stopping them. My argument is that Bane's command of the Force will enable him to circumvent them with laughable ease. Again, if he's capable of manipulating energy on a planetary scale, evidence would logically point to him being more than capable of circumventing the street scale amulet blasts.

Sorry for the Name change, I actually have a sig. I was making, but it turns out that I suck at Photoshop, so I asked for help. The change happened before the sig, and so the current confusion. It stems from the fact that I'm a ginger (red) and that I love Odyssey: Nemesis (greatest old game ever)

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
He is only shown to be able to 'absorb' lightning from allies when he is ready, and it is not done at a moment's notice. He has time to prepare himself, he was expecting it, and he knew exactly how much power/energy he could take. To say that a feat completed during a controlled ritual could easily be done in combat is just naive. When another person is trying to kill you there is a lot different atmosphere than there was here, and put simply: This is NOT a combat feat, it shows his raw power level, but we have proof that he can NOT absorb lightning in combat.

Not really a refutation of your claims here, but Kaan and others actually broke the ritual because they felt that Bane was going to drain them completely of their energy and kill them. "When you were focusing our Force, channeling it to destroy the Jedi, we felt -- as if your teeth were on our throats. As if you were going to suck us dry."

Prior to that, Kopecz also says, 'You frighten us, Bane.' And 'Fear. That is why we broke the circle.'

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Essentially, I have noted TWO points in your argument: That Bane spent ten years studying, during which he had access to the Freedon Nadd holocron, and that the Orbalisks give him an unholy power boost. Both are true.

Bane had three holocrons. Revan's, Nadd's, and Belia's. That's a lot of knowledge/room for improvement.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Lightning is usually caught with a lightsaber, and rarely with hands. You are suggesting that Bane can stop a force more powerful than Lightning by using the force to make it avoid him. Even the most powerful force users (like Yoda) dealt with lightning as it hit them, rather than simply banishing the attack. NOTHING has shown that Dark Side attacks can be bent away from their intended target by the target.

I think it was Raynar Thuul who could bend blaster shots away from him using the Force. Not quite the same, but meh.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis[b]
Electricity never hurt the orbalisks, the only stated effect was that they could not fully protect Bane from the effects. It took sith lightning to kill them. (my interpretation that I'd be happy to have disprove)

Electricity was how Caleb removed most of the living orbalisks from Bane's body (Bane's lightning only managed to kill a few). He had to insert a needle into their soft underbelly and shock them that way - using a starship's engine's power. Bane's Lightning killed a few of them because they gorged on the Dark Side power of it until they essentially "overfed." Kind of, overloaded their system.

Electricity was how Caleb removed most of the living orbalisks from Bane's body (Bane's lightning only managed to kill a few). He had to insert a needle into their soft underbelly and shock them that way - using a starship's engine's power. Bane's Lightning killed a few of them because they gorged on the Dark Side power of it until they essentially "overfed." Kind of, overloaded their system.

No worries. Anything for a fellow commie. 🙂 Ya stal!!

The problem was that he didn't have a set of instructions on how to do it in the beginning. When he was making the subatomic alterations, he was making the Holocron an exact replica of Nadd's. The implication is that Nadd's Holocron (if not others) was exact down to the sub-atomic level. (which is ridiculous in the extreme, but this is Star Wars). The only was to achieve the 'sub-atomic precision' would be to alter things on that level. Therefore, we can extrapolate that Freedon Nadd, at least, made similar sub-atomic alterations. From there, since we have yet to see a secondary method of Holocron making, we can deduce that all Sith Holocrons were created using these much vaunted alterations.

Sorry, this is too much a 'leap of faith'. Saying that just becuase Bane did it, so others must have isn't enough. While I can sympathise, the others Holocrons could easily have been made via technology or perhaps even some other way.

Despite all known Sith Lords having created their own Holocrons and the only way to do so is via the Force?
That's a terrible argument, exodus

Despite all known Sith Lords having created their own Holocrons and the only way to do so is via the Force?
That's a terrible argument, exodus

How do you know that it has to be done via the force? It seems to me that there are other ways (technology)

Well, seems to the writers at LFL when they've described Jedi and Sith holocrons, one needs the Force to make them, because everything needs to be so absolutely precise.

There's an ordinary recording device and then there's a Jedi or Sith holocron. Please show me one instance when the latter two have been seen using technology? Because I'll be glad to use some quotes

Errrr.... You've lost me. All I'm saying is that its plausible that with the advanced technology of Star Wars it wouldn't be too difficult to create a holocron with such precision. Even if you needed to do stuff at a sub-atomic level, its plausable.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
Errrr.... You've lost me. All I'm saying is that its plausible that with the advanced technology of Star Wars it wouldn't be too difficult to create a holocron with such precision. Even if you needed to do stuff at a sub-atomic level, its plausable.

Except saying that it was done via some advanced piece of machinery is a stretch and begs some proof, of which you can't produce.

Really, I think it's ironic that it's Taven (nebris yes?) who started putting forth this argument, especially considering what a fan he is/was over Occam's razor. Using said principle we'd have to assume that all holocrons were made the same way. We know Bane is following someone elses template, so without any evidence to the contrary we have to assume that anything he did in the process of creating said holocron was a necessary step.

So are you saying that luke is the only one to use the force to create his lightsaber? Did the other jedi get theirs from a great big lightsaber assembly line? According to you Exodus, we should ASSUME they did, until we see more jedi using the force to create their lightsabers.
its a bigger assumption than assuming they were all alike...

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Well, seems to the writers at LFL when they've described Jedi and Sith holocrons, one needs the Force to make them, because everything needs to be so absolutely precise.

There's an ordinary recording device and then there's a Jedi or Sith holocron. Please show me one instance when the latter two have been seen using technology? Because I'll be glad to use some quotes

Um, actually the writer of Jedi vs. Sith speculates that they don't know how holocrons are made, whether the alterations are done using only the Force or 'whether they can be replicated with technology'.

😄

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Game mechanics there.

Description of items aren't "game mechanics", Lightsnake.

The first cortosis suit was constructed after Kun died according to Evil Never Dies...also, cortosis weave armor is just gonna prevent a saber from cutting through, not deactivate it. Cortosis ore does that. Weave will just mean that it can't cut through and strong, repeated strikes will break through.

Where was it said that it was the "first" cortosis suit that was constructed after the death of Kun, eh? And no, lightsnake. According to the SW RPG rules a cortosis weave armor is going to short-circuit lightsabers. The Cortosis alloy weapons don't do the job. Weave and ore of Cortosis do.

As a duelist, Bane arguably exceeds Kun in skill. He's bigger, likely faster and stronger and more powerful

He's taller, yes. Doesn't mean anything.

Faster? Right. You may notice the situation where Kun is attempting to take the scroll from Nadds tomb and is stopped by the two Naddist armed with blasters. Before one of them can do so much and pull the trigger, Kun pulls out his lightsaber, cuts the first down, switches the weapon hand, crosses several metres of distance and cuts the second down. Talk about speed.

Strength? Right. Kun is just capable of pushing his finger through the skull of the Republic Chancellor and then lift the alien from the ground with his fingers in the alien skull and just one arm. That aside from pushing a Cathar Jedi down on her knees which just one arm.

And Bane being more powerful? That actually begs for proof, considering Kun's force showings in direct combat [resisting the most potent lightside attack there is, tossing people around as if they were ragdolls] as well as Kun's greater force works [freezing or mind-controlling the individuals in the Senate, the Sith ritual at the end of his life]. That aside from the fact that Kun possessed "more knowledge than he could ever use".

Problem for Exar is the taller Bane has an advantage with height preventing Exar from striking easily at the one vulnerable spot...

The armor has more than one vulnerable spot, apparently. Any joints would be vunerable, meaning that the orbalisk armor would have vunerable spots at the knees, ankles, elbows, shoulders, wrists, hibs and of course the neck and the head.

whereas Exar's unfamiliar style won't take long for Bane to adapt to as familiar with the DBL as he is and he's got an equal advantage with his curved hilt, which to my my knowledge, the style Exar has never encountered.

The curved hilt is not a "style", Lightsnake. It just allows greater precission, which doesn't matter. Even less considering that Kun mastered Bane's style.

And yes...it won't take Bane long to adapt to an unfamiliar style, hence Kas'im kicked his ass through the entire temple. And Kun's sword isn't a regular DBL: It has a short hilt, is wielded with one hand by Kun and the guy can alter the blade-length and internsity using the force. That's something entirely different from whatever Kas'im did with the weapon.

Throw in the orbalisks and Exar is gonna have serious trouble landing a hit before his head rolls

Yeah, right. Because Bane encountered so many master duellist during his career that he managed to outduel, right? I, personally, had the impression that he won most of his fight by superior force powers. An advantage he probably won't have against Exar Kun.

The above is a very, very cool post.

😄

Unless Bane got a lot more powerful in some recent book that I haven't read I don't think he could take Exar.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Unless Bane got a lot more powerful in some recent book that I haven't read I don't think he could take Exar.

Why yes. He did.

Which is that?

GASP!!! Glentract!