Originally posted by Lightsnake
Alright. Ultimatum: Find me anything from the comic saying Andeddu wasn't at full power and you'll consider the point dropped.
Gosh, Lightsnake. Find me anything from the comic saying Andeddu was at full power and you can consider the point dropped. The facts remain:
-> he only had access to a partial decayed corpse
-> he only had the lifeforce of one of his worshippers
-> he didn't face another being in combat for 5,000 - 7,000 years which is roughly the time period of him not using the force.
So, essentialy, he was bound to a weaker corpse without having used the force for the last 5,000 years. And you want to tell us he was at his full power? Right. What exactly were you doing the day they were giving out common sense?
As I've said-AGAIN- Andeddu's 'hubris' didn't prevent him from running away from his enemies even when he held the cards.
And despite of that, he forces the fight with Wyyrlok despite the fact that there was no need of him to do so. So what? Shall we add "madness" to the above listed disadvantages in comparison to his older self?
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Alright. Ultimatum: Find me anything from the comic saying Andeddu wasn't at full power and you'll consider the point dropped.As I've said-AGAIN- Andeddu's 'hubris' didn't prevent him from running away from his enemies even when he held the cards.
I love your logic lightsnake. I'll use yours. Find me anything that says Andeddu WAS at full power. I'm afraid you have common sense against you here. You don't know why he ran away from his enemies. Maybe he knew they were more powerful than him, or there were many of them. Maybe he thought he was more powerful than Wyrrlok even in his current position. It really doesn't matter since nothing indicates that he was at full strength, not to mention the idea of being a spirit for thousands of years.
Personally, I don't think he was extremely powerful. More powerful than LS gives him credit for. More powerful than Wyrrlok. But, not Nadd or Kun or Ragnos-esque.
And I hate the character. He's such a *****. Its like the authors said, "Hey, what if we made a douchbag pansy version of Palpatine." "Okay. We'll call him Andeddu."
Originally posted by Borbarad
Gosh, Lightsnake. Find me anything from the comic saying Andeddu was at full power and you can consider the point dropped. The facts remain:
-> he only had access to a partial decayed corpse
-> he only had the lifeforce of one of his worshippers
-> he didn't face another being in combat for 5,000 - 7,000 years which is roughly the time period of him not using the force.
So, essentialy, he was bound to a weaker corpse without having used the force for the last 5,000 years.
And you want to tell us he was at his full power? Right. What exactly were you doing the day they were giving out common sense?
Yes, Nai, please provide me SOME evidence of how Sith spirits weaken when they transfer themselves to a Holocron for the purpose of being put back in the comatose body with aid of someone else's drained life force to empower them anew. Is there ANY other scenario you have for that? Any? No? Ok, then.
Noticing that any evidence of madness seems conspicuously absent from any apeparances or evidence
And despite of that, he forces the fight with Wyyrlok despite the fact that there was no need of him to do so. So what? Shall we add "madness" to the above listed disadvantages in comparison to his older self?
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I love your logic lightsnake. I'll use yours. Find me anything that says Andeddu WAS at full power.
I'm afraid you have common sense against you here. You don't know why he ran away from his enemies.
Maybe he knew they were more powerful than him, or there were many of them.
Maybe he thought he was more powerful than Wyrrlok even in his current position.
It really doesn't matter since nothing indicates that he was at full strength, not to mention the idea of being a spirit for thousands of years.
Andeddu wasn't a free range spirit and he was never killed, sent to Chaos and bound to a physical point. He just used the Holocron as storage and then returned to his hibernating body.
And why are you overlooking his draining of the cultist to restore himself?
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Oh, look, nice answer. Yawn
Andeddu: They were seeking to depose me! They wanted my knowledge!
then he was a really poor Dark Lord. Ragnos and Sadow had their enemies murdered or played them off against eachother. Was Andeddu incapable of that?
Contrasting fully with his cowardice or intelligence.
Maybe, maybe, maybe. What we DO know was he fought a battle against someone he KNEW to be powerful and has accessed him before and that he's a craven, intelligent Sith.
signs point to him not losing much power and still be adept.
Andeddu wasn't a free range spirit and he was never killed, sent to Chaos and bound to a physical point. He just used the Holocron as storage and then returned to his hibernating body.
And why are you overlooking his draining of the cultist to restore himself? [/B]
Because it's irrelevant. He used a weak force user's body to restore himself and this is somehow going to grant him full strength after thousands of years?
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Sure as hell beats "Prove that he wasn't!" Great common sense there LS
This is relevant to what exactly? Oh right, nothing.
Who gives a shit about what you think about Andeddu? Your opinion of his reign as a dark lord is irrelevant to this thread. The argument concerns his power, which logically must have atrophied with thousands of years and being a spirit. Come up with an argument or drop it.
Except his arrogance led him to believe that krayt is weak, wyrrlok is weak, and the entire new sith order is weak. Arrogance. Nothing but.
Ragnos was never killed either. Granted he didn't use the force to keep himself alive, his essence still lived within not 1, but 2 sith objects. Yet after 5,000 years, he was a shell of his former self and sucked it up in a weakling's (tavion) body.
Because it's irrelevant. He used a weak force user's body to restore himself and this is somehow going to grant him full strength after thousands of years? [/B]
Originally posted by Lightsnake
No, I asked you to prove your point. You responded with a nothing
Actually you asked him to proof a negative. And we know that this is fallacious reasoning, don't we?
'Must have?' When has A Sith transferred themself to an object while never having died, used the body as a 'shell' and drained someone's life to return?
Is there ANY precedent for this scenario? Andeddu's spirit isn't floating freely all this time, which is where spirits begin losing power
Actually, Lightsnake. We saw Exar Kun willfully giving up his body to store his own spirits into the temples on Yavin 4. And despite roaming around in those Sith temples, specifically constructed to channel force energies, the guy doesn't seem to be in his "top shape" during the JA trilogy. Nadd did practically do the same after his death, storing his spirit in the Sith talisman.
The point is, that existing in form of a spirit alone is a quite disturbing experience, even for somebody like Darth Sidious. And while he just assumed that form for a brief amount of time, Andeddu did exist in that form for more than 5,000 years. If you think about that, Ajunta Pall went pretty much mad in that time span and the same was said about Exar Kun.
And even if you leave that aside: We can see that Andeddus body has started to decay, more resembling a mummy then a living being. Each cell lost in that process would result in less midi-chlorians if they, being a symbiont life-form, did even stay alive at all after the natural death of Andeddu.
All of that leads to the conclusion that he wasn't as powerful as he was when he was actually alive.
Ragnos died, though. Andeddu's body died, but he was never seperated from it.
Oh he wasn't? How does "spending millenia in a freaking holocron" not qualify as "being seperated from your body"?
Thing is, and Wyyrlok says...the body is just a shell and it never 'died,' a final end. Andeddu did something similar to Arden Lyn by going into a trance only he put his spirit and conscious mind into an item, to preserve it. Essentially, he used it as a horcrux, where he awoke, draining the guy's life force and likely getting a boost from his place of power and not only that, but he was generating some nice power in that fight. If Andeddu was 'reduced,' it wasn't by much. Heck, from his Holocron, he was still able to manipulate and use the Force
And he was still most likely not in top shape. Can you please acknowledge that and stop littering this thread with your sorry excuse for an actual arguments?
Originally posted by Borbarad
Actually you asked him to proof a negative. And we know that this is fallacious reasoning, don't we?
Actually, Lightsnake. We saw Exar Kun willfully giving up his body to store his own spirits into the temples on Yavin 4. And despite roaming around in those Sith temples, specifically constructed to channel force energies, the guy doesn't seem to be in his "top shape" during the JA trilogy. Nadd did practically do the same after his death, storing his spirit in the Sith talisman.
The point is, that existing in form of a spirit alone is a quite disturbing experience, even for somebody like Darth Sidious. And while he just assumed that form for a brief amount of time, Andeddu did exist in that form for more than 5,000 years. If you think about that, Ajunta Pall went pretty much mad in that time span and the same was said about Exar Kun.
And even if you leave that aside: We can see that Andeddus body has started to decay, more resembling a mummy then a living being. Each cell lost in that process would result in less midi-chlorians if they, being a symbiont life-form, did even stay alive at all after the natural death of Andeddu.
All of that leads to the conclusion that he wasn't as powerful as he was when he was actually alive.
Oh he wasn't? How does "spending millenia in a freaking holocron" not qualify as "being seperated from your body"?
And he was still most likely not in top shape. Can you please acknowledge that and stop littering this thread with your sorry excuse for an actual arguments?
Originally posted by Lightsnake
No, I asked you to prove your point. You responded with a nothing
He says why he fled. Period
Must have?' When has A Sith transferred themself to an object while never having died, used the body as a 'shell' and drained someone's life to return?
Is there ANY precedent for this scenario? Andeddu's spirit isn't floating freely all this time, which is where spirits begin losing power
No, he derided them as Sith and unworthy of the title. I don't believe he ever thought Wyyrlok or Krayt were 'weaklings' He mocks Wyyrlok as a slave of Krayt.
Which goes to my point of Wyyrlok serving Krayt when he could overthrow him with no issue, given Krayt is often in stasis.
Ragnos died, though. Andeddu's body died, but he was never seperated from it. Ragnos was bodiless and free floating. And don't forget Ragnos got a boost from the scepter....his 'essence' didn't survive, either...just his personal effects. With Andeddu, he literally put his conscious mind into the Holocron
Thing is, and Wyyrlok says...the body is just a shell and it never 'died,' a final end. Andeddu did something similar to Arden Lyn by going into a trance only he put his spirit and conscious mind into an item, to preserve it. Essentially, he used it as a horcrux, where he awoke, draining the guy's life force and likely getting a boost from his place of power and not only that, but he was generating some nice power in that fight. If Andeddu was 'reduced,' it wasn't by much. Heck, from his Holocron, he was still able to manipulate and use the Force [/B]
I did not know wyrrlok is an authority on Andeddu. I also didn't know that being in stasis for 25,000 years is ANYTHING like being locked in a holocron. So really, you don't have much of an argument.
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
[B]No, I responded with an insult to your reasoning. Since all logic points to spirits losing their skills with the force over time, it is up to you to prove Andeddu was at full strength? Got it chump?
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Consider yourself on ignore. I've pointed out my points on why Andeddu is not a spirit and as usual, you're incapable of remaining civil, let alone not resorting to this every time
He left his essence in his holocron, just as Ragnos left his in his sword and the sith talismans. Don't pretend like there's any real difference. Exar Kun was the only unique case because he performed a specific ritual, which wasn't shown from any of the other spirits, and even he was severely weakened when he awoke 4,000 years later. As usual you don't have an argument so just stfu.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
"Prove he was weaker" is asking for negative proof
"Prove that he wasn't at full power" is.
The issue is, you;re overlooking all those guys had their bodies actually die before they returned. Andeddu kept himself alive after his body died a natural death
So had Andeddu, because it's said that his body started decaying, which is also visible from comic.
That's Andeddu's claim to fame: when he was Dark Lord, his body had died previously and he kept it alive and intact. Wyyrlok says Andeddu's body, like the Holocron is a shell, which is why he destroys the spirit.
Thanks for proving my point, Lightsnake. Andeddu's body was just a shell, which is why Wyyrlok destroys the spirit. He doesn't "kill" Andeddu but destroys the spirit of the Sith Lord. Which is exactly the same thing that Korr does against Ragnos.
The issue is, you're failing to account for Andeddu is the special case. His body didn't start to rot once he was dead, it was in the same state as it was when he left it. He was practically a mummy when he was Dark Lord. Wyyrlok comments on this, as does Krayt. Considering the 'inferior' clones when they decayed did little to limit Palpatine's proficiency with the Force as they were merely shells, I fail to see why Andeddu would differ so much there.
Because Andeddu's mummified body is not a fresh clone body of himself. Obviously. And what? So now Andeddu's body started decaying while he was still alive? That would still mean a loss of midi-chlorians, which would still mean that he isn't in his top shape.
he put his consciousness inside the thing. In effect, it acts as storage or a small, pyramid body of its own. He's not disembodied in the same sense as Ragnos, Palpatine, Nadd or Kun were.
Rofl, Lightsnake. His spirit [consciousness] does actually leave his own body. So where is the difference between him and Nadd or Kun for that matter? He wasn't possessing his body for several millenia, therefor he was "disembodied". A simple fact.
Originally posted by Borbarad
"Prove that he wasn't at full power" is.
His body had died, he remained alive when in charge of the Empire. Again, nothing indicates this weakened him....it's his claim to fame. Something other Sith badly wanted to learn.
So had Andeddu, because it's said that his body started decaying, which is also visible from comic.
Thanks for proving my point, Lightsnake. Andeddu's body was just a shell, which is why Wyyrlok destroys the spirit. He doesn't "kill" Andeddu but destroys the spirit of the Sith Lord. Which is exactly the same thing that Korr does against Ragnos.
Because Andeddu's mummified body is not a fresh clone body of himself. Obviously. And what? So now Andeddu's body started decaying while he was still alive? That would still mean a loss of midi-chlorians, which would still mean that he isn't in his top shape.
Rofl, Lightsnake. His spirit [consciousness] does actually leave his own body. So where is the difference between him and Nadd or Kun for that matter?
He wasn't possessing his body for several millenia, therefor he was "disembodied". A simple fact.
Originally posted by LightsnakeThe concentration would hardl change and it'd seam midichlorians aren't really factoring in here. Yes, Andeddu's body was decaying when he was alive. The entire point of Andeddu is at one point his body died a physical death and he preserved it and kept rule over the Sith Empire. This doesn't indicate him being substantially weaker. What he feared was that other Sith would learn how to do this as well, hence fleeing
Which is irrelevant to the argument concerning Andeddu's power.[quote]Their spirits were free from any confines. Andeddu gave himself the Holocron as a new holding and remained in apparent hibernation until it was accessed
And? Are you really going to say that we c an really measure how a spirit-or consciousness, it's not made clear which is in the Holocron- is going to decay or not when it's inside the Holocron and capable of using the Force therein? [/B]
We can logically say that a spirit who hasn't used the force in 5,000+ years is obviously going to diminish in skill.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Fine, leave it at 'prove he was weak.'
And as I said before, Lightsnake: Proof that he was as strong as he was in his top shape, after not using the force for several thousand years and being freshly "resurrected" into his already decaying body. Common sense actually contradicts that idea pretty much.
His body had died, he remained alive when in charge of the Empire. Again, nothing indicates this weakened him....it's his claim to fame. Something other Sith badly wanted to learn.
Once more, Lightsnake. The state in which he was in before transferring his spirit into the holocron doesn't matter. Through that spirit-transfer, he gave up his body and became a Sith spirit, who are, by every definition of the word "powerless" in comparison to their own former selves. And then, after existing in that state for several millenia, he entered his own body again, which was fueled by the energy of a weaker force user.
And please. It's not too unique at all, considering that Simus managed to stay alive as a freaking head seperated from his body. Yet I doubt that Simus was anywhere near his top shape force abilities in that form.
Korr destroyed Ragnos's spirit? And Wyyrlok and Andeddu fought a rather metaphysical duel. Not like Korr and Ragnos.
Technically, this is exactly what Korr did, considering he basically forced Ragnos spirit out of Tavions body. And once more: Wyyrlok did directly attack Andeddu's spirit, not his body, which leads to the suggestion that there was a missing "link" between them. Otherwise Wyyrlok would have had to kill the already dead body and then deal with the spirit.
The concentration would hardl change and it'd seam midichlorians aren't really factoring in here. Yes, Andeddu's body was decaying when he was alive. The entire point of Andeddu is at one point his body died a physical death and he preserved it and kept rule over the Sith Empire. This doesn't indicate him being substantially weaker. What he feared was that other Sith would learn how to do this as well, hence fleeing
Apparently he was weakened enough to fear the same people that he ruled over before, apparently unquestioned, given that he managed to die a natural death. Going by that, he did actually went weaker, feeling weak enough himself to run rather than maintain his rule over the Sith Empire.
Their spirits were free from any confines. Andeddu gave himself the Holocron as a new holding and remained in apparent hibernation until it was accessed
They were? It didn't appear to me as if Kun's spirit was free from any confines, going by the fact that he was bound to Yavin 4. And sorry. Where is the proof that Andeddu was actually in hybernation when the holocron was deactivated? He was just a conciousness trapped in the device.
And? Are you really going to say that we c an really measure how a spirit-or consciousness, it's not made clear which is in the Holocron- is going to decay or not when it's inside the Holocron and capable of using the Force therein?
No. I'm merely suggesting that somebody who spent millenia in form of a spirit inside some device, without using the force, would be "out of training" - that alone making him a less powerful opponent than he was before. Add to this a possible change of personality [from coward to I'll-kick-Wyyrloks-ass], which hints to some mental issues and add the fact that he was freshly resurrected.