Darth Krayt vs Count Dooku

Originally posted by Borbarad
And as I said before, Lightsnake: Proof that he was as strong as he was in his top shape, after not using the force for several thousand years and being freshly "resurrected" into his already decaying body. Common sense actually contradicts that idea pretty much.

No. I'm merely suggesting that somebody who spent millenia in form of a spirit inside some device, without using the force, would be "out of training" - that alone making him a less powerful opponent than he was before. Add to this a possible change of personality [from coward to I'll-kick-Wyyrloks-ass], which hints to some mental issues and add the fact that he was freshly resurrected.

the only reason he'd have engaged Wyyrlok would be that he honestly thinks he's stronger and having drained Gerlun? This is something Andeddu had prepared for initially and he had to have taken that he might have to do some fighting into account.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And as I said before, prove he was any weaker. This is something he'd set up beforehand and prepared for, on his homeworld, after having taken someone's life to restore himself.
Do you really see someone like Andeddu forcing a battle against someone if he isn't absolutely certain he can win it? Do you honestly see him trying that if he's not at or near his full power?

In the Holocron, he's able to use his 'wizardry' against Krayt and drain the life from an acolyte. It'd seem he's not powerless there. Again, is there any precedent for what Andeddu did to judge it by?

Arden Lyn woke up about 25,000 years and was able to horribly injure Antinnis Tremayne and kill Jerec's personal apprentice before she was subdued. Andeddu's body was left in the same state he left it in and he drained the life of his cultist to boot. Life is life and it seems to have been enough to restore Andeddu.

Simus was able to keep himself alive. His head was not physically decaying and as we know losing body parts kind of hurts the overall count when you cross some line, I think existing as a head qualifies. If Andeddu was weaker in his state, it doesn't show given he remained in charge of the Empire and that people badly want to grab this secret.
Simus's state was apparently due to a mix of alchemy and sorcery after his head was seperated when he was 'cut down.' Andeddu's seems something plainly different

Wyyrlok implies Andeddu could have faced them. The issue is, Andeddu was a coward. Andeddu was scared they were going to steal his knowledge and secrets and were hunting him when he fled.

Andeddu's cowardly streak doesn't seem to be changed. His body would be in the same state he left it and in the Holocron, he was capable of using the Force.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And as I said before, prove he was any weaker.

Is arguing in circles a nice hobby, Lightsnake? I'd thought it would be nice to try it myself, but then I thought it would be boring to type the same stuff again and again ad nauseam.

Do you really see someone like Andeddu forcing a battle against someone if he isn't absolutely certain he can win it? Do you honestly see him trying that if he's not at or near his full power?

Thanks for repeating my previous point word by word, Lightsnake. If I should ever need a parrot, I'll give you a call. But let me ask you a question: Do you see the guy who fled from the Sith Empire forcing a battle at all? And, really, do you think that - in Andeddu's thought - he was under the impression that he would need his full power [or anything even close to that] to deal with people like Krayt or Wyyrlok whom he constantly insulted?

See. If I'm under the impression that somebody can't play basketball, I wouldn't assume that I need to be Michael Jordan in order to beat him in the sport.

In the Holocron, he's able to use his 'wizardry' against Krayt and drain the life from an acolyte. It'd seem he's not powerless there. Again, is there any precedent for what Andeddu did to judge it by?

Meaning what, Lightsnake? I never said he was entirely powerless. I said "powerless in comparison to the time when he was actually alive". The likes of Ragnos, Kun and Nadd also don't appear to be "powerless" in their respective spirit forms, but they are certainly rather far away from their "top shape".

Arden Lyn woke up about 25,000 years and was able to horribly injure Antinnis Tremayne and kill Jerec's personal apprentice before she was subdued. Andeddu's body was left in the same state he left it in and he drained the life of his cultist to boot. Life is life and it seems to have been enough to restore Andeddu.

Yes. Arden Lyn woke up - where is your proof that Andeddu's consciousness remained inactive? And hell - what do we know about Arden Lyn's original skill level? Nothing? Right. And what Lightsnake? Life is life? For all we know, Andeddu used the life force to free himself from the holocron and store his spirit in his body. What else?

Simus was able to keep himself alive. His head was not physically decaying and as we know losing body parts kind of hurts the overall count when you cross some line, I think existing as a head qualifies.

Not when you "cross some line", Lightsnake. The midi-chlorians are symbiotic beings existing in the cells of a force user. Hence every "decay" of the body will result in the lost of midi-chlorians, because those cells are dying, meaning that the midi-chlorians will lose their living space [die with the cells]. Andeddu already looked more than a mummy than a living creature -> cell loss -> midi-chlorian loss.

And that can heavily influence the power of a force user, Lightsnake. Think about it: Anakin, losing his lower legs and one arm [and of course a nice part of his skin] went from 200 % Sidious [or 1000 % Sidious - depends on which statement of Lucas you want to thrust] to 80 % Sidious.

If Andeddu was weaker in his state, it doesn't show given he remained in charge of the Empire and that people badly want to grab this secret.

Until the day when he saw his position threatened and, because of that, left the Sith Empire to hide his body and store his consciousness in the holocron. Apparently the guy did lose some power there, otherwise he wouldn't be afraid of the people he - apparently - held dominion over until the point of his natural death.

Simus's state was apparently due to a mix of alchemy and sorcery after his head was seperated when he was 'cut down.' Andeddu's seems something plainly different

Oh. You think Andeddu archieved this feat without alchemy and sorcery?

Wyyrlok implies Andeddu could have faced them. The issue is, Andeddu was a coward. Andeddu was scared they were going to steal his knowledge and secrets and were hunting him when he fled.

The point that matters is, Lightsnake, that he was forced to flee to defend his secrets in the first place. Face it: He was the Dark Lord of the Sith and ruled over the same people that wanted to "steal" his knowledge later. Therefor he was the most powerful individual around at that point in time - before his "death". After that? Apparently not any longer because if that would have been the case he would simply have gone on with ruling the Empire, instead of running away.

Sith Holocrons tend to be at rest until activated. The only other precedent I can think of for this would be Kla who also transferred his soul to a Holocron.
And Kun bound himself inside the temples. For all intents and purposes, it seems he was in the same state as Ragnos or the others...he was imprisoned same as them, though, only on Yavin rather than Korriban.

...and Andeddu's spirit was also imprisoned - but in the holocron. There is no difference here. He seperated his spirit from his body and stored it elsewhere. The fact that his body didn't decay further doesn't matter.
And yes, Lightsnake. Holocrons tend to be at rest until they are activated but in this case, we had a consciousness able to use the force stored within the holocron. It's not as if this had been a normal holocron.

Andeddu's cowardly streak doesn't seem to be changed. His body would be in the same state he left it and in the Holocron, he was capable of using the Force.

Okay, Lightsnake. What is it now? Either his spirit was "shut down" when the holocron wasn't activated or he was able to constantly use the force while being trapped in their. Both doesn't work. And why the hell, even assuming that he was capable of doing it, would he have used the force while being in the holocron. He didn't have much reason to do that.

the only reason he'd have engaged Wyyrlok would be that he honestly thinks he's stronger and having drained Gerlun? This is something Andeddu had prepared for initially and he had to have taken that he might have to do some fighting into account.

So what, Lightsnake? To think that he's stronger than Wyyrlok, whom he despised as much as Krayt and the other Sith, he wouldn't necesserily have to be in his prime or even close to it. And what kind of "fighting" are you thinking about? Essentially it would just involve a drain attack against somebody not expecting to be attacked at all - and we know that Sith spirits are quite capable of killing force users.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Is arguing in circles a nice hobby, Lightsnake? I'd thought it would be nice to try it myself, but then I thought it would be boring to type the same stuff again and again ad nauseam.

And what kind of "fighting" are you thinking about? Essentially it would just involve a drain attack against somebody not expecting to be attacked at all - and we know that Sith spirits are quite capable of killing force users.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Just going by the standards you set

That comes from the fact that I have to reply to the same bullshit again and again...before you finally see that your point has been utterly defeated. But hell...that's not going to happen, is it?

When the hell did he belittle them for power? He mocked Krayt for fear and Wyyrlok for being Krayt's slave and the order for being pretenders to the throne but at no point in my recollection does he demean their power and considering Krayt is called the most powerful being in the galaxy at the start of Legacy, which includes guys like Roan Fel, Kol Skywalker and Wyyrlok himself, who's a master of Sith Lor, power and ritual coupled with Krayt's personal instruction at the hands of an original sith Lord and somehow, I really doubt Andeddu will be dumb enough to disparage them for their personal power

The fact that matters is, Lightsnake: He didn't take them serious. You don't insult people if you think that the same people might pose any real threat to you. By his own comments, Andeddu himself considered them not worthy wearing the title of a Sith Lord. He even mocks Krayt as a "pretender". So what? Apparently he didn't think that they were powerful. That they were quite strong doesn't matter here because Andeddu might have perceived them as some sort of "lesser beings" in comparison to himself in full power. And hell. Obviously Wyyrlok was astonished by the wealth of knowledge around him, when he reached Andeddu's corpse. Enough to...well...not care so much about the former Dark Lord any longer.

So apparently, Andeddu had more knowledge and - going by his behavior - viewed himself as more powerful than Krayt or Wyyrlok. So what is it now? Was the former paranoid and cautious Sith Lord so cocky that he forced the fight with a more powerful being? Or can it be that he was weaker than before, therefore overestimated his own ability and died because of that flawed judgement?

And we have any comparison for what Andeddu did? Without dying, transferring their consciousness to an object to later repossess it with someone's lifeforce and stand up good as new? Don't you think if he was weaker than usual a comment would have come from Andeddu or Wyyrlok on the subject?

Yeah. Right. Because Wyyrlok was in a situation to judge the power of Andeddu then in comparison to Andeddu when he was alive [Nope] and Sith Lords are known for admitting their weakness to people they want to fight [Nope]. The only one who could have given a statement like that would have been the narrator. And do you see that happen in the SW universe very often? [Nope]

Arden was the second in command and second most powerful of the Legions of Lettow, and considering how Xendor has been described, that's likely considerable power. She killed a powerful Jedi Master post war and when she woke up, it took some of Palpatine's best, including Tremayne and Tobin to subdue her. Lyn knew things that had been long forgotten. It would be a good bet she's nothing resembling weak

So, Lightsnake: She was pretty much the second in command of the top dog Dark Sider in her own time. Do you think that, even if she should have been weaker than before, she could have handled Tremayne? I, personally, think that would be the case. So what?

All we know is that he set it up. Apparently all he needed was to be placed on his body's chest. The life force was either a bonus to insure that he eliminated one obstacle to deal with when he was alive or to restore himself

What kind of "obstacle" would a loyal minion offer? Andeddu apparently needed the life-force to re-enter his body. And instead of doing something wicked like, I don't know, rise from the ground and confront Wyyrlok directly, he creates some illusionory battle ground for them to fight him in some sort of metaphysical enviroment. Can it be that his body was in not-so-top-shape?

Again, when your body is just a 'shell,' this apparently isn't the case considering Palpatine in most of his withered, non-sabatoged figures.

Those figures where fresh clones of Sidious own self, Lightsnake. If you clone a force user the result is another force user. See Joruus or Luuke. Sidious wasn't a living corpse like Andeddu.

If this is the case, then Sion or Nihilus should be weaker as well, considering how utterly ruined Sion's body is and Nihilus is a decaying husk who bound his soul to his armor.

Since when are Sion or Nihilus the epitomes of force power. They both have one special force ability but aside of that?

Issue is, Anakin's body was absolutely destroyed...unless he used some forgotten Sith technique to stay up and at 'em, though, I'm not really seeing how we can use Anakin or Lumiya as measuring sticks.
Again, by contrast, we have Sion and Nihilus. Andeddu's very claim to fame was keeping control post apparent mortem. I don't see Sith clamoring to learn how you keep a mummified body alive when it drops your power significantly

Simus apparently learned how to keep his own head alive, Lightsnake. Apparently he had some reason to do so, despite of the fact that he was pretty much "powerless" in that very incarnation. What reason? Just to stay alive, probably.

How does this follow? He's scared of his enemies, wants to protect his secrets and flees. The difference is he probably hadn't been keeping himself alive by pure power to that point and Wyyrlok even notes that he should have faced them rather than fleeing.

Oh what now, Lightsnake? Now he needs power to keep himself alive which would, logically, mean that he's multi-tasking, force-wise, to just stay alive, which, of course, also means that he can't use "all he can" in combat because that would mean he can't keep himself alive any longer and dies. Which then leads to the fact that he wasn't as powerful as when he was a live in his post mortem state - which I'm trying to tell you here the entire time?

We have literally no idea how he did it. It could've been a technique he invented and then was lost after he fled.

If it was anything that he just had in his head, Lightsnake, it would make no sense for him to flee, would it?

Either he feared a coalition of his enemies, he became utterly paranoid after he created this technique and fled fast as possible or he fancied running away and waiting to come back at a point when his enemies were dead and he'd have no trouble climbing to the top again, which seemed his plan in the Legacy era.

Why would he fear any later Sith less than the people that were around in his own time, Lightsnake?

Andeddu didn't seem to have many issues being a Holocrorn for so long. He just transferred his consciousness to the thing and got his body in the same condition he left it. Again, this isn't really something we can judge with any precedent, save for Kla.

The point is, Lightsnake, that he seperated his spirit from his body. In that form, a force user is naturally weaker than in his original state. That he transferred the spirit back in again doesn't matter. There was no "link" between body and spirit. He just forced it from one storage place to another.

He's able to use his 'wizardry' with Krayt and drain Gerlun's life for two things.
When he's activated, at least, he's got command over the Force there. Not sure of any other Holocrons that can do that.

Who the hell claimed that he didn't have any command over the force at all? I'm just suggesting that the fact that he died and the process of leaving his body did weaken his ability to use the force. Anything else would be a surprise...

'Despise' doesn't equate to 'think is weak.' Ludo and Naga despised one another and didn't underestimate the other in battle. Kaan despised Bane and didn't underestimate him when the time came. Despising Wyyrlok and his order as perversions of what the Sith stand for do not carry over to being suicidally overconfident

As I said above: He wouldn't insult people that he sees as a threat for himself. Apparently Wyyrlok and Krayt were just some minor Sith Lords in his eyes. Hence why he insulted them. Hence why he forced the confrontation with Wyyrlok.

And he drains him why, exactly? Theone who's loyal to him? Likely, it was needed to return him to life and restore at least a measure of his ability.

Now it's just "a measure" in comparison to his "full power"? So now you agree with the idea that he was less powerful than before?

Amen

Originally posted by Borbarad
That comes from the fact that I have to reply to the same bullshit again and again...before you finally see that your point has been utterly defeated. But hell...that's not going to happen, is it?

The fact that matters is, Lightsnake: He didn't take them serious. You don't insult people if you think that the same people might pose any real threat to you. By his own comments, Andeddu himself considered them not worthy wearing the title of a Sith Lord. He even mocks Krayt as a "pretender". So what? Apparently he didn't think that they were powerful. That they were quite strong doesn't matter here because Andeddu might have perceived them as some sort of "lesser beings" in comparison to himself in full power. And hell. Obviously Wyyrlok was astonished by the wealth of knowledge around him, when he reached Andeddu's corpse. Enough to...well...not care so much about the former Dark Lord any longer.

So apparently, Andeddu had more knowledge and - going by his behavior - viewed himself as more powerful than Krayt or Wyyrlok. So what is it now? Was the former paranoid and cautious Sith Lord so cocky that he forced the fight with a more powerful being? Or can it be that he was weaker than before, therefore overestimated his own ability and died because of that flawed judgement?

Yeah. Right. Because Wyyrlok was in a situation to judge the power of Andeddu then in comparison to Andeddu when he was alive [Nope] and Sith Lords are known for admitting their weakness to people they want to fight [Nope]. The only one who could have given a statement like that would have been the narrator. And do you see that happen in the SW universe very often? [Nope]

So, Lightsnake: She was pretty much the second in command of the top dog Dark Sider in her own time. Do you think that, even if she should have been weaker than before, she could have handled Tremayne? I, personally, think that would be the case. So what?

What kind of "obstacle" would a loyal minion offer? Andeddu apparently needed the life-force to re-enter his body. And instead of doing something wicked like, I don't know, rise from the ground and confront Wyyrlok directly, he creates some illusionory battle ground for them to fight him in some sort of metaphysical enviroment. Can it be that his body was in not-so-top-shape?

Those figures where fresh clones of Sidious own self, Lightsnake. If you clone a force user the result is another force user. See Joruus or Luuke. Sidious wasn't a living corpse like Andeddu.

Since when are Sion or Nihilus the epitomes of force power. They both have one special force ability but aside of that?

Simus apparently learned how to keep his own head alive, Lightsnake. Apparently he had some reason to do so, despite of the fact that he was pretty much "powerless" in that very incarnation. What reason? Just to stay alive, probably.

Oh what now, Lightsnake? Now he needs power to keep himself alive which would, logically, mean that he's multi-tasking, force-wise, to just stay alive, which, of course, also means that he can't use "all he can" in combat because that would mean he can't keep himself alive any longer and dies. Which then leads to the fact that he wasn't as powerful as when he was a live in his post mortem state - which I'm trying to tell you here the entire time?

If it was anything that he just had in his head, Lightsnake, it would make no sense for him to flee, would it?

Why would he fear any later Sith less than the people that were around in his own time, Lightsnake?

The point is, Lightsnake, that he seperated his spirit from his body. In that form, a force user is naturally weaker than in his original state. That he transferred the spirit back in again doesn't matter. There was no "link" between body and spirit. He just forced it from one storage place to another.

Who the hell claimed that he didn't have any command over the force at all? I'm just suggesting that the fact that he died and the process of leaving his body did weaken his ability to use the force. Anything else would be a surprise...

As I said above: He wouldn't insult people that he sees as a threat for himself. Apparently Wyyrlok and Krayt were just some minor Sith Lords in his eyes. Hence why he insulted them. Hence why he forced the confrontation with Wyyrlok.

Now it's just "a measure" in comparison to his "full power"? So now you agree with the idea that he was less powerful than before?

On reread of the issue, seems we were both wrong about the basics of it: Seems Andeddu didn't transfer his spirit to the Holocron...he transfers his 'intellect' to the Holocron and enters into a hibernation...when the Holocron is puton his chest, it wakes him up and gives him the knowledge, whereupon he drains Gerlun.

In effect, it's more like Arden LYn, there.

Dooku wins all rounds.

Wow, this is an ancient one, before Legacy was even finished!

@wolfmyth

Nice bump. It seems you like Dooku.

This is a good fight, I doubt Dooku can win solidly, Krayt's kinetic power seems to me considerable, but I am not sure how physically powerful Krayt is. So this could go either way.

Darth Krayt wins this fight.

Dooku takes all three