Kas'im vs galen marek

Started by Wolverine21799 pages
Wolverine2179 Restricted

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Palpatine was a force titan and Mace Windu was a lightsaber master. Apparently it DOES mean shit.
Did he decide to use the force at the start of the battle?

No, it means shit only if your opponent happens to get close to you for saber combat.

Hewhoknowsall Restricted

Originally posted by Wolverine2179
Did he decide to use the force at the start of the battle?

No, it means shit only if your opponent happens to get close to you for saber combat.

So why bother training with a lightsaber anyway? To deflect blaster bolts? Then why not just train on deflecting blaster bolts and not on dueling?

In the battles (as in personal battles, not large scale ones) in the movies, 95% of it is lightsaber dueling.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
You said power though.

It wouldn't be close when Vader would rag doll his ass the same way he did Kota. Kasi'm would win a saber duel, but Vader can hold up long enough. He did contend with Maul in a saber duel, and even gained the upperhand until Maul used Jar kai (however you spell it) against him.

OK, so by "power" I meant overall fighting capability. Sorry if you misunderstood.

Before you said that Vader is far more "powerful", but now you're saying that he can at least hold up...

Wolverine2179 Restricted

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
So why bother training with a lightsaber anyway? To deflect blaster bolts? Then why not just train on deflecting blaster bolts and not on dueling?
Wtf? Your not making any sense.

Training with a lightsaber is for the sake of dueling with other enemies if it be jedi or sith. But then again how does being an excellent saber master going to help you when your opponent is far superior to you in the force and when he grabs your balls with the force and you can do nothing about it?

(Imagine if your out of dueling range and vader grips you, whats you ub3r saber capabilities going to do? I'll answer for you: nothing!!)

I don't know how many people have told you this.
Dont-be-an-i-d-i-o-t.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall

In the battles (as in personal battles, not large scale ones) in the movies, 95% of it is lightsaber dueling.

So? Then i will argue with your own logic, then why bother training with the force anyway if 95% of the fights are pure saber duels?

Its all a matter of personal preference, in a hypothetical debate we argue that both combatants go in an all out fight meaning there is excessive use of the force which in this case vader will tool you precious kasim

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall

OK, so by "power" I meant overall fighting capability. Sorry if you misunderstood.
Thats too bad, when you say "power", we say "force" not "over all fighting capability"

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall

Before you said that Vader is far more "powerful", but now you're saying that he can at least hold up...
Don't be stupid, first you admit that there was a misunderstanding and now your accusing SID 66 of contradicting himself?

Vader IS more powerful than kasim in the force and overall capabilities, kasim may be a better duelist, but vader is no slouch in saber combat and no push over either.

Incanus Istari

Main reason Bane had time to do the wave was because Kas'im is a fool and gave a speech. Marek would act like Bane and crush something or let loose lightning. Depends on if he cant protect that, plus Marek is an assassin, he can hide. Kas'im has his foolish sense of honor.

truejedi Senior Member
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
He did contend with Maul in a saber duel, and even gained the upperhand until Maul used Jar kai (however you spell it) against him.

I thought the maul additions to the EU were non-canon, since the movie clearly showed him dying (no hope of life from a cut in half guy, unlike boba) and the Movies are higher canon than whatever book has him alive?

Wolverine2179 Restricted

It is canon.... you do know about sith alchemy to bring back a body from the dead or create a doppleganger right?

Incanus Istari

Hooray for the sith, they get to revive the dead!!!!

KingD19 Shai-Gen's Enigmatic Wong

Maul was brought back a couple times. A doppleganger that fought Vader(And lost)

A solid hologram that fought Luke(And lost)

And a non canon, half droid(lower body) who fought Obi-Wan, and lost.

Gideon Restricted
SIDIOUS 66
Sidious was the better swordsman,

What?

There's absolutely nothing that suggests that. Both of them were masters of Juyo, which means that they were high end masters of multiple disciplines; both were also well established martial artists. But there is absolutely nothing that suggests that Palpatine circa Revenge of the Sith is a superior swordsman than Mace. Given that Mace kept up his technical skill through practice and real war situations, Mace is more likely the more skilled swordsman.

SIDIOUS 66
and was forcing Windu back. Windu only achieved victory through Vaapad, which matched Sidious' own speed.

That has nothing to do with Sidious's prowess as a swordsman; his superior speed stems from a superior connection and mastery of the Force.

Wolverine2179 Restricted

I'll make it simple.

The next gook that downplays vader... well i am going to grab you by the balls and then squeeze until my hands turn white.

Dr McBeefington Restricted

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Sidious was the better swordsman, and was forcing Windu back. Windu only achieved victory through Vaapad, which matched Sidious' own speed.

BTW, Sidious decided to use the force only when he was defeated.

Prove it. It's specifically stated that they were even, and that Mace's Vaapad and shatterpoint put him over the top.

Dr McBeefington Restricted

Originally posted by Wolverine2179
Did he decide to use the force at the start of the battle?

No, it means shit only if your opponent happens to get close to you for saber combat.

Stop making up circumstances to validate your point.

Wolverine2179 Restricted

How am i making up circumstances when they always occur during a fight?

SIDIOUS 66 Senior Member

Originally posted by Gideon
[B]What?

There's absolutely nothing that suggests that. Both of them were masters of Juyo, which means that they were high end masters of multiple disciplines; both were also well established martial artists. But there is absolutely nothing that suggests that Palpatine circa Revenge of the Sith is a superior swordsman than Mace. Given that Mace kept up his technical skill through practice and real war situations, Mace is more likely the more skilled swordsman.

True, but Mace did not defeat Palpatine through better technical skill as McBeefington put it.

BTW, I thought it was stated that Mace was second to Yoda? Yoda and Sidious are near equals.

SIDIOUS 66 Senior Member

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Prove it. It's specifically stated that they were even, and that Mace's Vaapad and shatterpoint put him over the top.
They were even after Mace sunk into Vaapad. Before that Mace had a hard time keeping up

truejedi Senior Member

um... wait a minute,Mace's Vapaad is his lightsaber form. To act like being even with that is less than being even normally isn't correct. If he was even with the vapaad, then he was even.

beefy, u too are right. Shatterpoint is what put it over the top though. Then Vapaad screwed Sidious when he tried to fry mace.

SIDIOUS 66 Senior Member

Originally posted by truejedi
um... wait a minute,Mace's Vapaad is his lightsaber form. To act like being even with that is less than being even normally isn't correct. If he was even with the vapaad, then he was even.
No Vapaad was more of a state of mind. It is a superconductive loop that allowed Windu to match Sidious' speed. It took Mace several seconds to sink into it.

Beefington was using Palpatine's defeat at Mace's hands as an example of how a better duelist can defeat a force titan. And that was a bad example. Mace did not defeat Palpatine through better technical skill. He defeated Palpatine through the loop that matched Palpatine's speed.

beefy, u too are right. Shatterpoint is what put it over the top though. Then Vapaad screwed Sidious when he tried to fry mace.
Actually no. Mace thought Palpatine's shatter point was his fear, which was wrong. Palpatine's shatterpoint was actually Anakin, so I don't see how shatterpoint is the thing that defeated Palpatine.

I could be wrong.

KingD19 Shai-Gen's Enigmatic Wong

LOL, the superconducting loop was Mace using his lightsaber in conjunction with Vaapad to turn Sidious lightning back on him.

SIDIOUS 66 Senior Member

Originally posted by KingD19
LOL, the superconducting loop was Mace using his lightsaber in conjunction with Vaapad to turn Sidious lightning back on him.
You need to do some research, child. It was also used to accept the fury and speed of the oponent they are facing, and match it.

Hewhoknowsall Restricted

Originally posted by Wolverine2179
I'll make it simple.

The next gook that downplays vader... well i am going to grab you by the balls and then squeeze until my hands turn white.

I'm not downplaying him, infact I think that he's more powerful than some other people give him credit for. I just don't think that he's "far" more powerful than Kas'im.

Originally posted by Wolverine2179
Wtf? Your not making any sense.

Training with a lightsaber is for the sake of dueling with other enemies if it be jedi or sith. But then again how does being an excellent saber master going to help you when your opponent is far superior to you in the force and when he grabs your balls with the force and you can do nothing about it?

(Imagine if your out of dueling range and vader grips you, whats you ub3r saber capabilities going to do? I'll answer for you: nothing!!)

Kas'im states in PoD that a guy that superior in sabers can defeat a guy that's superior in the force. Also, if the force is so much more important in a fight, then why not just practice all force and only practicing deflecting blaster bolts for the lightsaber?

Originally posted by Wolverine2179

I don't know how many people have told you this.
Dont-be-an-i-d-i-o-t.

Even if you disagree with me, my logic is NOT as stupid as you think. They are perfectly legitimate arguments, whether or not they are correct.

Originally posted by Wolverine2179

So? Then i will argue with your own logic, then why bother training with the force anyway if 95% of the fights are pure saber duels?

Its all a matter of personal preference, in a hypothetical debate we argue that both combatants go in an [b]all out fight meaning there is excessive use of the force which in this case vader will tool you precious kasim
[/B]

Because knowledge of the force DOES help you in fights, plus it allows you to move objects (which can be useful in many combat and non-combat situations) "persuade" people, sense bad situations, enhance your strength/speed/stamina/etc, and much more.

There would be excessive use of the force, but there's also excessive use of the lightsaber.

Kas'im was shown to at the last instant put up a force shield and still block a force attack that shattered a temple.

Originally posted by Wolverine2179

Vader IS more powerful than kasim in the force and overall capabilities, kasim may be a better duelist, but vader is no slouch in saber combat and no push over either.

I'm not arguing for either Kas'im or Vader when it comes to who will WIN (although I might be leaning towards Kas'im) but Vader isn't FAR more powerful. It would be close.