Re: Gauntlet: Kain VS. Warcraft
Originally posted by Lich King
1. Tirion Fordring
2. Gul'Dan
3. Malfurion Stormrage
4. Archimonde
5. Medivh
6. Lich King7. All Above
1. Tirion Fordring.
Wielding Ashbringer, I assume? As I said in the other thread, he has a very good chance against Kain, since Kain is undead.
2. Gul'Dan.
Gul'Dan was the most powerful mortal warlock to ever have lived. He killed an entire encampment of Arakkoa with a single curse. In fact, not only killed them, but twisted their very souls too. He raised an entire mountain in Shadowmoon Valley and also rose the Tomb of Sargeras from the ocean floor. Even after his death, hit skull remained a very powerful warlock artifact. Just look what it did to Illidan.
Could go both ways, since I'm not certain about Gul'Dan's durability.
3. Malfurion Stormrage.
Oh yes, the Night Elven archdruid. It would depend quite a bit on the battlefield. Say, if the battle took place in a forest, then Stormrage would have a very fair chance at winning, since he could turn nature itself against Kain. Now if the battle took place in a building or something like that, Kain would most likely win.
4. Archimonde.
A horrifically powerful Eredar warlock. He'd just be way too much for Kain. Finger of Death anyone?
(Apparently, Archimonde also has something called Greater Finger of Death. I really don't wanna imagine what this one does.)
5. Medivh.
The last Guardian of Tirisfal. Killed a dragon with a single spell. There is no doubt that he is a very powerful sorcerer. Apparently, however, he seems to have normal human durability. He'd go down if Kain got a strike at him.
This one could go both ways, really.
6. Lich King.
This guy is the focus of everyone's attention these days(both in and out of game) 😛.
He's an extremely powerful necromancer, has vast mental powers, wields the legendary blade, Frostmourne, and can apparently make people explode by pointing it at them. Not to mention that he's also very adept at magic. The only weakness he has against Kain is that his body(Arthas) is apparently susceptible to whatever normal humans are susceptible to. On the other hand, the Lich King wears powerful armour and no doubt has very potent enchantments placed around his body/armour for further protection. I mean, he managed to take a hit from Tirion(with Ashbringer). Yes, it wounded him, but any other undead would've surely perished.
I say the Lich King takes it quite handily.
7. All Above.
You mean all of them at the same time? That's just not fair. 😖
1. Ime not sure, I dont know much actual knowledge on the guy, his sword alone will not help him in this battle, he would need some extremely fast and powerful longer ranged attacks.
Can someone toss a move list at me please, i.e a list of attacks hes been proven to be able to do, AND what they actually do. If you want you could also give reasons why it may be useful or not against Kain
2. I dont think Guldan would be much of a threat since despite his power, I dont think ive heard any durability on him and at the end of the day Kain could teleport/slash pretty damn quickly. If he has a speicifc ability or abilities that you know of ,please mention them if their useful against Kain.
3. Ime not sure I know any major power this guy could wield in quick demand and using nature against Kain I cant imagine to be very useful.
4. imo the hardest one by far in the entire Gauntlet, although I dont think finger of death would win him an immediate victory otherwise he could have used it at other times during his showings if it could indeed rip inside out any and all opponents.
Although like 1. I would like a move list please of the best attacks Archimonde has at his disposal.
5. I would have thought he would be earlier, since I wouldnt put him above Archimonde but "shrug"
A move list for any special abilites please?
6. Powerful but he does indeed have shown he can indeed be harmed, i think he would be massively vulerable to having his soul ripped out
7. Imo easier by far than the single batlte between him and Archimonde but ill probably attempt to debate this one if move lists have been provided for those that I do not know.
Originally posted by Burning thought
4. imo the hardest one by far in the entire Gauntlet, although I dont think finger of death would win him an immediate victory otherwise he could have used it at other times during his showings if it could indeed rip inside out any and all opponents.
I disagree with a few things in your post but since you apparently doesn't believe Kain will get Past Archimonde either no point in pointing them out, so just a piece of information concerning the finger of death, If you have at some point of time made your own maps in Warcraft and customized the spells you will know that the Finger of death (which in warcraft is dealing 500 Damage (bypassing basically everything)) cannot target heroes unless altered, now if we look at it from a RPG point of view Finger of Death when being utilized at someone at Archimondes level is basically equal to instant death, and as Art have already mentioned Archimonde has a even nastier version...
But we need to use canon versions, and not versions using gameplay mechanics, what it actually does in gamepaly is diffrent in a real scenario, when has he used it in canon, i remember him killing a dragon with it but obviously he couldnt just hit any Tom, dick or harry with it to kill any being in warcraft so what can it be gauged by?
I mean gamepalysuch as 500 damage is not gaugable, nor is it viable since its a gameplay mechanic numeric and from the RPG point of view, Kain doesnt have a "level".
Also I think it would be at a disadvantage against Kain who can seeminly on a whim become mist form, and ofc, you cant turn mist "inside out", Kain also has his shield to protect him against physical attacks and reflects magical back onto the caster. And Kain constantly teleporting and misting around Archimonde would make it incredibly difficult to do such a spell which in Warcraft 3, takes the form of red lightning bolt if ime not mistaken.
If I recall correctly Archimonde haven't used finger of death in the Lore, the dragon he killed he used Telekinetic to kill not finger of death.
I just elaborated on what the Finger of death could do.
No but you can spread mist across a very large area using wind. The Finger of Death bypasses that kind of protection at least it did in Warcraft, not sure what it does in WoW. And Archimonde only needs to hit him one time with it, then I don't think Kain will be in a shape that allows him to teleport ore mist.
ah okie, well then I would personally say that its not really a viable spell to use in this debate, its like almost 100% gameplay in base for evidence.
Not sure about that, I dont see why Kain would not be able to transform his body into mist and then to reform with the mist in a more decent matter, but I was meaning that his misting and teleporting would make hitting him with the red bolt massively difficult.
I don't think Archimonde ever used Finger of Death in "canon". It is, however, known that he has this ability and he did use it in WC3 and WoW. I'm sure it's very much canon.
Archimonde has a wide range of abilities besides Finger of Death.
-Powerful telekinesis.
-Ability to turn people to stone.
-Melt skin and flesh off of his target's bones.
-Teleportation. It also incinerates anyone nearby when he teleports.
-Summon Demons.
-Immolate his opponents.
-Expunge fluids from his opponents.
-That spell that he performed on Malorne.
These are ones that I can recall without looking at 'War of the Ancients' or 'Shadows & Light'.
EDIT: Yeah, Finger of Pain is indeed a red bolt, but it happens instantly. I mean, the bolt probably travels at least as fast as lightning.
And I'm sure that majority of things that Kain did, he did in gameplay.
Keep note that Kains body is not his essence however ,blasting him into pieces would be less of a defeat for him than when Raziel rips out Kains heart due to the fact the heart is the main organ for blood (major for vampires) and on a more spiritual note, his soul link. This means that blasting him into bits is not going to likely stop Kain logically or canonically either due to the fact the guy makes himself into a diffrence substance and thousands of tiny diffrence pieces of it when he mists anyway but more importantly his soul (like all vampires) are their essences. Although I think Kain would be considered defeated if forced to become a wraith since Kain I dont think can attack Archimonde in the material world as a spectoral being either.
Now weve also been shown that his soul is untouchable, when Raziel slashes Kain with the reaver Kain does not show any spiritual damage and well, with his heart (his soul as well) being ripped out of him, for some reason against the typical lOK rules and law about vampires raised the way Kain was, he didnt just drop as a corpse like Yanos Audren did, so its likley Kains soul is simply not harmable or removable, not even if its only link to excistence is removed. Also it is shown that a vampires soul is incredibly durable to being ripped out or devoured/mainpulated as the Elder God, a being who since LOK history began has eaten souls, he still cannot take a Nosgoth vampires.
Also note Magic users will be near to useless against Kain, despite having a magic shield powered by infnite magical energy regulated only by Kain which can reflect magic and make physical damage useless, the same regulation of magic that Kain, like all balance guardians before him have allows him to regulate Archimonde, mediv or otherwise, thus, making their magic useless or perhaps making them incapable of using it all together due to regulation powers.
yes he did, and gameplay is fine to gauge how things work on a basic level, ime not saying Finger of pain is not usuable because its only seen in gameplay, thats fine, ime saying its not usable because we cannot gauge its actual power and effeciveness in a real situation and logic points unquestionably to the fact Archimonde couldnt do it to anyone and everyone he pleases, he couldnt point it at Sargeras or Kiljaeden, his power superiors and turn them inside out for example, I woudlnt be surprised if half of the opponents in the Warcraft universe, highest dragons (aspects) for example being among them would resist or outright be immune to being ripped open with such an attack.
Its also possible that it no longer excists, if its not appeared in canon lore and since there are so many types of fiction after Warcraft 3 in the warcraft universe that it may not have appeared in. It just seems curious to me that he did not use it in all the times he could have it was actually usable on any opponent.
Originally posted by Burning thought
ah okie, well then I would personally say that its not really a viable spell to use in this debate, its like almost 100% gameplay in base for evidence.Not sure about that, I dont see why Kain would not be able to transform his body into mist and then to reform with the mist in a more decent matter, but I was meaning that his misting and teleporting would make hitting him with the red bolt massively difficult.
If that was the way we were meant to look at things in the GAMES versus forum then we would basically have no characters to discuss and kain for instance would have basically nothing to bring to the debate except what he has used in ingame cutscenes, Archimonde would still have the feats attribuated to him from outside the games.
I haven't in the game seen Kain use mist for longer time then transfering himself through bars and even then it requires that his mist keeps fairly close together if a Hurrican for instance where to strick Kain while in the midst of his mist form I see nothing that stats that Kain couldn't be litterally shattered for the winds. Yes Teleporting could make it difficult the Mist however could also function like some sort of a spirit and the Finger of Death has ingame been shown to affect spirits.
Originally posted by Burning thought
Keep note that Kains body is not his essence however ,blasting him into pieces would be less of a defeat for him than when Raziel rips out Kains heart due to the fact the heart is the main organ for blood (major for vampires) and on a more spiritual note, his soul link. This means that blasting him into bits is not going to likely stop Kain logically or canonically either due to the fact the guy makes himself into a diffrence substance and thousands of tiny diffrence pieces of it when he mists anyway but more importantly his soul (like all vampires) are their essences. Although I think Kain would be considered defeated if forced to become a wraith since Kain I dont think can attack Archimonde in the material world as a spectoral being either.Now weve also been shown that his soul is untouchable, when Raziel slashes Kain with the reaver Kain does not show any spiritual damage and well, with his heart (his soul as well) being ripped out of him, for some reason against the typical lOK rules and law about vampires raised the way Kain was, he didnt just drop as a corpse like Yanos Audren did, so its likley Kains soul is simply not harmable or removable, not even if its only link to excistence is removed. Also it is shown that a vampires soul is incredibly durable to being ripped out or devoured/mainpulated as the Elder God, a being who since LOK history began has eaten souls, he still cannot take a Nosgoth vampires.
Also note Magic users will be near to useless against Kain, despite having a magic shield powered by infnite magical energy regulated only by Kain which can reflect magic and make physical damage useless, the same regulation of magic that Kain, like all balance guardians before him have allows him to regulate Archimonde, mediv or otherwise, thus, making their magic useless or perhaps making them incapable of using it all together due to regulation powers.
yes he did, and gameplay is fine to gauge how things work on a basic level, ime not saying Finger of pain is not usuable because its only seen in gameplay, thats fine, ime saying its not usable because we cannot gauge its actual power and effeciveness in a real situation and logic points unquestionably to the fact Archimonde couldnt do it to anyone and everyone he pleases, he couldnt point it at Sargeras or Kiljaeden, his power superiors and turn them inside out for example, I woudlnt be surprised if half of the opponents in the Warcraft universe, highest dragons (aspects) for example being among them would resist or outright be immune to being ripped open with such an attack.
Its also possible that it no longer excists, if its not appeared in canon lore and since there are so many types of fiction after Warcraft 3 in the warcraft universe that it may not have appeared in. It just seems curious to me that he did not use it in all the times he could have it was actually usable on any opponent.
How is getting blown to pieces a lesser defeat than getting your heart ripped out? I mean, Finger of Pain would blow his heart to bits too.
Whao, are you saying that Kain can regulate/control or deflect infinite amounts of magic? Why didn't you say so earlier? In this case, he could handily defeat anyone on this list, including Archimonde. He's all about magic, he's nobody without magic... well maybe he would still have Telekinesis, but still.
Now, I am sure that Archi couldn't kill Kil'Jaeden, Sargeras or an Aspect, or anybody as powerful as him with Finger of Death... at least not instantly. It would still inflict heavy damage, I'm sure.
Of course it's curious how he didn't use it on everyone he encountered. It's also quite curious why he fled from Malfurion; he had the power to kill Malorne, but not Malfurion? It's curious why didn't he teleport the hell away from the World Tree when he noticed the wisps. It's also very curious how he didn't spot Tyrande when she shadowmelded that time, but was able to see shadowmelded/invisible targets in other missions. It's also quite curious why Dr. Long-Hair didn't stab Cloud through the heart that time. Curiosities abound!
Originally posted by Utrigita
If that was the way we were meant to look at things in the GAMES versus forum then we would basically have no characters to discuss and kain for instance would have basically nothing to bring to the debate except what he has used in ingame cutscenes, Archimonde would still have the feats attribuated to him from outside the games.I haven't in the game seen Kain use mist for longer time then transfering himself through bars and even then it requires that his mist keeps fairly close together if a Hurrican for instance where to strick Kain while in the midst of his mist form I see nothing that stats that Kain couldn't be litterally shattered for the winds. Yes Teleporting could make it difficult the Mist however could also function like some sort of a spirit and the Finger of Death has ingame been shown to affect spirits.
But its impossible AND illogical to use mechanics put in place for players and balance to use in a real situation where such would not be present, but as i said to Artificial, ime not against him using it, ime simply saying its impossible to gauge its real power from "it does 500 damage" to Kain.
its obvious all the time that Kains mist form has some great power over his control otherwise while exploring all these cold windy landscapes he has done in the LOk games and used mist, or otherwise obviously windy battlements like he does at the beginning of Defiance, he would have been blown over the castle walls and lost to the winds many a time, but this does not happen, this also shows Kains mist form in Blood omen 2:
he can stay this form indefinatley and furthermore the mist form he takes is not blown away either or deformed, its obvious he has control over the form without a doubt. But ime sure a Hurricane would throw around many a solid object as well 😉 so mist form has nothing to with a hurricane.
hm ime not sure about that, since its like weather, you wouldnt say Finger of death if fired in a thunder storm would strike a rain drop and turn the rain drop inside out would you?
Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
How is getting blown to pieces a lesser defeat than getting your heart ripped out? I mean, Finger of Pain would blow his heart to bits too.Whao, are you saying that Kain can regulate/control or deflect infinite amounts of magic? Why didn't you say so earlier? In this case, he could handily defeat anyone on this list, including Archimonde. He's all about magic, he's nobody without magic... well maybe he would still have Telekinesis, but still.
Now, I am sure that Archi couldn't kill Kil'Jaeden, Sargeras or an Aspect, or anybody as powerful as him with Finger of Death... at least not instantly. It would still inflict heavy damage, I'm sure.
Of course it's curious how he didn't use it on everyone he encountered. It's also quite curious why he fled from Malfurion; he had the power to kill Malorne, but not Malfurion? It's curious why didn't he teleport the hell away from the World Tree when he noticed the wisps. It's also very curious how he didn't spot Tyrande when she shadowmelded that time, but was able to see shadowmelded/invisible targets in other missions. It's also quite curious why Dr. Long-Hair didn't stab Cloud through the heart that time. Curiosities abound!
Kain has already had his heart torn out, which is what I was saying that his physical form is not so important, blood which is important to a vampire doesnt bother Kain that his heart, the pumper of blood is ripped out and further more, his soul should be lost as well to the underworld since the Heart of Darkness (kains heart) is his link to his vampirism, without it, he should in theory drop dead and his body become just another lifeless corpse, but it didnt, its obvious his soul and his physical form have some sort of innate protection.
indeed, see this as evidence:
http://www.dark-chronicle.co.uk/lok/guardians.php
The role of the Balance Guardians was a reglatory one; their magic influenced the regulation of the other magic in Nosgoth
He is a regulator of magic, making most on the list at a disadvantage, however...
but that still doesnt negative Archimonds obvious massive physical abilities over kain, his TK etc etc, not that I would say that alone would give him a win over Kain ofcourse but I would wait for Utriga or others to debate that before I decide myself.
indeed ime sure too
yes, I know, there are a lot of curious events in fictional series which makes debates in VS forums possibly difficult when abilities are left so wide open so that its hard to gauge a real power level or how effective it may be.
also as a side note, the reason why I said Kain fighting all at once would be easier than some of them (like Arhcimonde) one at a time is the fact he has both inspire hate as an actual spell AND an area of effect version from his sword, both make all enemies in the viciinity rather kill eachother than Kain, Kain does get aggro if he goes too close however.
About the order of the encountered, Burning Thought, I placed Medivh after Archimonde because from my perspective, Medivh would most likely defeat Archimonde. Not for that reason alone, but Medivh is a better foe against Kain than Archimonde for all reasons out there except endurance. Medivh manipulates mist, he sense people where they are and where they move before they even do so. He does not even have to be turned towards Kain to know what he's doing, how he's moving or what spell he will be casting.
Let us not forget that Medivh was able to reflect Khadgar's instant blast while fighting Garona without even looking at Khadgar. Not Archimonde nor even Lich King has shown this level of perception.
In fact, the only reason I have Medivh before Lich King in this fight is because I think Kain Vs. Lich King would be the most epic encounter of these. He will probably have more trouble with Archimonde or Medivh than Lich King, but the LK Vs. Kain encounter would be one to go into history.
Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
Whao, are you saying that Kain can regulate/control or deflect infinite amounts of magic? Why didn't you say so earlier? In this case, he could handily defeat anyone on this list, including Archimonde. He's all about magic, he's nobody without magic... well maybe he would still have Telekinesis, but still.
Don't jump the gun so quickly. Medivh can regulate and control magic as well.
Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
As I said, without his magic he wouldn't have any obvious physical abilities over Kain, I doubt he would have telekinesis either.
Archimonde's endurance and strength has nothing to do with his magic. Even without magic, Archimonde would be the toughest opponent for Kain to defeat, if at all. Archimonde favor his gigantic size, and if he would be removed of his magic (Which I have my doubts would be doable), he would remain the size he was, which is gigantic. The guy climbed the World Tree like it was one of them babytrees I climbed when I was young.
Originally posted by Burning thought
hmm I see 🙁 surely he (as the largest Archimonde) would have strength, since he was enormous.
Hehe, do you think he got so enormous by lifting weights? 😛
LK, I thought he said regulate infinite amounts of magic? Or is it a hyperbole?
Anyway, I still think Archimonde is the most powerful entity on this list.
EDIT: That video of Kain snapping necks made me lol.
Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
Hehe, do you think he got so enormous by lifting weights? 😛LK, I thought he said regulate infinite amounts of magic? Or is it a hyperbole?
Anyway, I still think Archimonde is the most powerful entity on this list.
EDIT: That video of Kain snapping necks made me lol.
Most powerful is a matter of relativity.
Now, what magic is not "infinite"? In Warcraft, all magic wielders carry infinite magic and Medivh regulates, manipulates and controls magic without breaking the slightest amount of sweat. I would not know if the infinite amount of magic part is hyperbole or not, but it will make no difference in his fight against Medivh. Medivh is the better spellcaster of the two, and on contruare to Kain can tell every move his foe makes before he does it.