Gauntlet: Kain VS. Warcraft

Originally posted by Burning thought
From whats shown Kains mist never dispurses, its more stuck to his own form and body as if he was still solid, just made out of mist instead of flesh, so I think the mist would be blown around as if it was still in Kains shape and he would simply have to reform, also whats stopping Malfurion from being sucked up? this would be pretty dangerous id say summoing a hurricane if Kain is going into close combat.

Well the shield stops physical harm coming to Kain, so perhaps it would lift up the shield with Kain inside it like one of those blow up balls people have fun in 😛

But nobody draws magic [b]through Kain, he simply has the authority to turn their magic off and regulate it, so its still very very diffrent, wheras Agamotto is actually the source of the magic Strange is trying to take. its like Agamotto has a cookie jar thats by law his own...strange is taking from it and Agamotto doesnt mind, Strange pisses the guy off so Agamotto puts a lid on the jar....well Kain doesnt really have a jar so to speak, he simply has the authority to shut other peoples lids even though their not his own.

The source of the magic is not being disturbed, its just being stopped, its like having traffic coming in from one section of the road, and then the red traffic light goes on and they stop, traffic still comes on, only ofcourse Kain is unlikely to let the light go green again, at least not while Archimonde is a threat.

What CIS? CIS is not usually taken into account, by default I think its often simply agreed characters have knowledge of eachother, their own spells etc etc and so will fight at the best of their abilities. Although under CIS I doubt Kain would hold back at all when facing the likes of someone so imposing as Archimonde, although with CIS enabled, Mediv and malfurion and other seeminly less imposing beings to look at, may gain an advantage.

hm although ive not seen evidence of it piercing reflections and in the end, your using gameplay mechanics to gauge its power in a real battle, didnt you say it could not target heroes? so then perhaps Kain simply cannot be targeted at all....peronally ive not played WC3 for a very long time, maybe ill try out some of these things myself. [/B]

If Kain enters his mis form to avoid a attack and then get caught in the Hurrican produced by Malfurion what Evidence then points towards that Kain can regain his form? Nothing really. The fact that he is controlling it to a start, and that both Cenarius and Malfurion and even ordinary Druids can control it I cannot see why Furion cannot.

Yeah most likely but he most likely wouldn’t have the shield active while in his mist form and if he was in the shield and then used his mist form wouldn’t the shield disappear?

No Agamotto isn’t the Source of the Magic, just like Galactus isn’t the Source of the power Cosmic, Agamotto have a Pocket Dimension from which Strange draws his magic, that was what Agamotto locked just like Kain can regulate the Magics from in Nosgoth. Kain has again again again never showed that he can do that, but even if we follow that thought we would still stand, from my perspective, with Kain as the One holding the Jar. On Nosgoth he allows the Guardians which draw their magic from the Pillars and theirby from Nosgoth to draw it, We have no idea what he could do to a guy doesn’t (to use your analogy) have a lid on his cookie Jar.

And again what difference does that make to a guy that doesn’t require outside help to gain his magical powers, I recall that you at one time mentioned something about how the Guardians was killed by Vorador because the Balance Guardian had been killed and theirfore they couldn’t draw their magic as they used too but I could be wrong. Even if Kain puts up the red light it isn’t sure that the trafic will obey that red light, in Nosgoth the Magic obeys Kain because he is the Hub of magic, however nothing suggest that the magic behaves still with Kain as the hub when another character draws a entirely different form of magic.

Yeah that is always assumed, CIS means that the Character will fight as they normally does, that Means for instance that Galactus will not just begin the Battle with wreaking the Planet with a Energy Blast, but rather just stand and assemble his Energy Converter, it means that Professor X doesn’t mindwipe you at the spot etc, And It doesn’t mean that they will hold back they will just behave as they normally does in such a Situation, Kain for instance would most likely try and utilize his telekinetic against Archimonde, and Archimonde will likely try and use his spells ore his Telekinetic, Malfurion will try to subdue Kain, Medivh depending on which Soul is in control will behave differently etc. The reason I asked is because that if CIS is activated then having the discussion about Regulation is pointless because Kain has never used that ability in a Combat Situation.

And that is actually allowed if we take a look at the rules for this forum (I don’t understand that decision but what the heck)

Canon feats vs. non-canon feats - I leave this solely up to the decision of the thread-starter. I do expect people to adhere to the decision made for that particular thread. For the purposes of this forum, only feats seen in the actual video games are considered canon. Any other sources (movies, comics, novels, etc) are considered non-canon here.

But in WoW where all are heroes it works.

Originally posted by Utrigita
If Kain enters his mis form to avoid a attack and then get caught in the Hurrican produced by Malfurion what Evidence then points towards that Kain can regain his form? Nothing really. The fact that he is controlling it to a start, and that both Cenarius and Malfurion and even ordinary Druids can control it I cannot see why Furion cannot.

Yeah most likely but he most likely wouldn’t have the shield active while in his mist form and if he was in the shield and then used his mist form wouldn’t the shield disappear?

No Agamotto isn’t the Source of the Magic, just like Galactus isn’t the Source of the power Cosmic, Agamotto have a Pocket Dimension from which Strange draws his magic, that was what Agamotto locked just like Kain can regulate the Magics from in Nosgoth. Kain has again again again never showed that he can do that, but even if we follow that thought we would still stand, from my perspective, with Kain as the One holding the Jar. On Nosgoth he allows the Guardians which draw their magic from the Pillars and theirby from Nosgoth to draw it, We have no idea what he could do to a guy doesn’t (to use your analogy) have a lid on his cookie Jar.

And again what difference does that make to a guy that doesn’t require outside help to gain his magical powers, I recall that you at one time mentioned something about how the Guardians was killed by Vorador because the Balance Guardian had been killed and theirfore they couldn’t draw their magic as they used too but I could be wrong. Even if Kain puts up the red light it isn’t sure that the trafic will obey that red light, in Nosgoth the Magic obeys Kain because he is the Hub of magic, however nothing suggest that the magic behaves still with Kain as the hub when another character draws a entirely different form of magic.

Yeah that is always assumed, CIS means that the Character will fight as they normally does, that Means for instance that Galactus will not just begin the Battle with wreaking the Planet with a Energy Blast, but rather just stand and assemble his Energy Converter, it means that Professor X doesn’t mindwipe you at the spot etc, And It doesn’t mean that they will hold back they will just behave as they normally does in such a Situation, Kain for instance would most likely try and utilize his telekinetic against Archimonde, and Archimonde will likely try and use his spells ore his Telekinetic, Malfurion will try to subdue Kain, Medivh depending on which Soul is in control will behave differently etc. The reason I asked is because that if CIS is activated then having the discussion about Regulation is pointless because Kain has never used that ability in a Combat Situation.

And that is actually allowed if we take a look at the rules for this forum (I don’t understand that decision but what the heck)

But in WoW where all are heroes it works.

Define "controlling", since moving it around is controlling, what suggests Malfurion is immune to his own weather condition? nothing ive seen so far.....and the mist is made out of his form, so all youll see is a shape of Kain in the form of mist blowing around in the wind until he reforms, nothing suggests Kains form ever breaks apart and thats not going to help malfurion, if its broken apart then Kain would reform elseware which Malfurion wouldnt want him to do since it could be behind him, you wouldnt notice a stream of mist behind or around you during a hurricane would you....

I dont know, why would it? the mist form is simply Kain still, only mist instead of blood, then again, I dont see why he would mist if he uses his shield instead, he may as well teleport to Malfurion while shielded. Mist is better for stealth because its hard to track and very fast.

So its Agamattos dimension? its still Agamattos cookie jar....he doesnt have to show he can do it, all balance guardians can regulate magic as it says, thats what they do....its like saying all Eredar cannot do magic unless the peticulour eredar in question has feats of casting spells.....Kain doesnt allow, Kain is simply the binding between guardians and their pillars, he cannot afaik turn that connection on and off, that has no connection to our situation here, its nothing to do with Balance guardian regulation so technically Kain has no jar, he merely puts lids on them as I said before. Balance guardians regulate magic throughout the whole of Nosgoth, even without a balance guardian (when Ariel was slain) magic was still useable by all beings including the guardians, they just had no connection to their pillar, thus making them weak but thats nothing to do with the regulatory magic.

Its not a combat or non combat ability is it, its just a passive control to regulate magic. Although to be fair, kain has never had that ability in a combat situation, since as ive said before his corruption and soul are only restored at the end of Defiance, which is the last game.

Gameplay mechanics are not allowed, it says evidence form the games, such as cutscenes and perhaps logical statements. Kain is not affected for example by 20,000 shadow damage.....he has no numbers for his HP and this is a real battle anyway so Archimonde doesnt start with 4 and a half million HP for kain to wittle down for example.

I dont know about that, only Death knights are considered a hero class but enough discussing gameplay.

Pardon my ignorance, Burning Though, but if I'm getting this right, Kain can only control magic if it's being drawn from these Pillars?

Originally posted by Burning thought
Define "controlling", since moving it around is controlling, what suggests Malfurion is immune to his own weather condition? nothing ive seen so far.....and the mist is made out of his form, so all youll see is a shape of Kain in the form of mist blowing around in the wind until he reforms, nothing suggests Kains form ever breaks apart and thats not going to help malfurion, if its broken apart then Kain would reform elseware which Malfurion wouldnt want him to do since it could be behind him, you wouldnt notice a stream of mist behind or around you during a hurricane would you....

I dont know, why would it? the mist form is simply Kain still, only mist instead of blood, then again, I dont see why he would mist if he uses his shield instead, he may as well teleport to Malfurion while shielded. Mist is better for stealth because its hard to track and very fast.

So its Agamattos dimension? its still Agamattos cookie jar....he doesnt have to show he can do it, all balance guardians can regulate magic as it says, thats what they do....its like saying all Eredar cannot do magic unless the peticulour eredar in question has feats of casting spells.....Kain doesnt allow, Kain is simply the binding between guardians and their pillars, he cannot afaik turn that connection on and off, that has no connection to our situation here, its nothing to do with Balance guardian regulation so technically Kain has no jar, he merely puts lids on them as I said before. Balance guardians regulate magic throughout the whole of Nosgoth, even without a balance guardian (when Ariel was slain) magic was still useable by all beings including the guardians, they just had no connection to their pillar, thus making them weak but thats nothing to do with the regulatory magic.

Its not a combat or non combat ability is it, its just a passive control to regulate magic. Although to be fair, kain has never had that ability in a combat situation, since as ive said before his corruption and soul are only restored at the end of Defiance, which is the last game.

Gameplay mechanics are not allowed, it says evidence form the games, such as cutscenes and perhaps logical statements. Kain is not affected for example by 20,000 shadow damage.....he has no numbers for his HP and this is a real battle anyway so Archimonde doesnt start with 4 and a half million HP for kain to wittle down for example.

I dont know about that, only Death knights are considered a hero class but enough discussing gameplay.

Lady Vashj quiet easily manipulates a hurrican making it move about as she wills and her control of the forces of nature is far below Malfurions. I was under the impression that if the mist which was his form became seperated then he would no longer be capable of reforming himself because his body had in his mist form been spread across a very large area. If he reformed (as in Balance Guardian I cannot die thing) that would technically count as a Kill ore a knockout and thus a Win.

That it is just like the Nosgoth worlds is Kain's cookie Jar, he allows what amount of magic that should be drawn from it by the Guardians, he according to you have control of the lit, just like Agamotto have control over the Magic that streams from his Dimension and too the mages that invokes his name and very similar from my point of view, Kain can restrict according to you restrict people from drawing magic from Nosgoth how can you then make the claim that he doesn't have a Jar? The Jar appears to be Nosgoth itself. And I will ask again BT please answer this time. Has the Balance Guardian ever cut a off a character not connected to the pillars off from his power? Yes ore No. So hold on a second even if the Balance Guardian are dead, that means that there are completely closed off from the Magic regulation which means that the power the Guardians get from Nosgoth through the pillars is zero because none regulats it as you say, none keep the flow up, but they can still draw magic just not from the Pillars then it looks more to me like the Guardian of Balance are in control of the magic flow from the pillars then in control of the magic throughout the entire Nosgoth because if the Balance Guardian was in complete control and the Pillars where unaccessable then the Magic in the Nosgoth would should have been unable to gain access too with that in mindthen Kain cannot in any way complete shut down Archimonde, he could perhaps if Archimonde required some to regulate the magical flow but he doesn't.

Theirfore we if CIS is active cannot use such a feat because Kain never utilizes it in game ore in a combat oriented situation, we cannot if CIS is active make speculation on what he can do, but will have to look at what he will do, and he will not based on the portrayed given of him in the game use regulation because that wouldn't apply as a natural way for him to depower ore kill a opponent, you see the point? If CIS is active then the entire talk about whether ore not Kain can use that ability will be pointless.

Sorry but the Rules on this site clearly stats otherwise. It says only FEATS seen, not stated ore anything else ANY other source is not to be consideret canon I doesn't agree with the rules but strictly speaking Kain Regulation of magic in a Combat Situation wouldn't be useable. No I'm fully aware of that but that wasn't the point the point was that in the game it pierces reflection etc, then according to the rules presented by Lana, is it?, it counts as doing that.

It was you that brought it up.

Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
Pardon my ignorance, Burning Though, but if I'm getting this right, Kain can only control magic if it's being drawn from these Pillars?

That is what I'm getting too.

Originally posted by Utrigita
Lady Vashj quiet easily manipulates a hurrican making it move about as she wills and her control of the forces of nature is far below Malfurions. I was under the impression that if the mist which was his form became seperated then he would no longer be capable of reforming himself because his body had in his mist form been spread across a very large area. If he reformed (as in Balance Guardian I cannot die thing) that would technically count as a Kill ore a knockout and thus a Win.

That it is just like the Nosgoth worlds is Kain's cookie Jar, he allows what amount of magic that should be drawn from it by the Guardians, he according to you have control of the lit, just like Agamotto have control over the Magic that streams from his Dimension and too the mages that invokes his name and very similar from my point of view, Kain can restrict according to you restrict people from drawing magic from Nosgoth how can you then make the claim that he doesn't have a Jar? The Jar appears to be Nosgoth itself. And I will ask again BT please answer this time. Has the Balance Guardian ever cut a off a character not connected to the pillars off from his power? Yes ore No. So hold on a second even if the Balance Guardian are dead, that means that there are completely closed off from the Magic regulation which means that the power the Guardians get from Nosgoth through the pillars is zero because none regulats it as you say, none keep the flow up, but they can still draw magic just not from the Pillars then it looks more to me like the Guardian of Balance are in control of the magic flow from the pillars then in control of the magic throughout the entire Nosgoth because if the Balance Guardian was in complete control and the Pillars where unaccessable then the Magic in the Nosgoth would should have been unable to gain access too with that in mindthen Kain cannot in any way complete shut down Archimonde, he could perhaps if Archimonde required some to regulate the magical flow but he doesn't.

Theirfore we if CIS is active cannot use such a feat because Kain never utilizes it in game ore in a combat oriented situation, we cannot if CIS is active make speculation on what he can do, but will have to look at what he will do, and he will not based on the portrayed given of him in the game use regulation because that wouldn't apply as a natural way for him to depower ore kill a opponent, you see the point? If CIS is active then the entire talk about whether ore not Kain can use that ability will be pointless.

Sorry but the Rules on this site clearly stats otherwise. It says only FEATS seen, not stated ore anything else ANY other source is not to be consideret canon I doesn't agree with the rules but strictly speaking Kain Regulation of magic in a Combat Situation wouldn't be useable. No I'm fully aware of that but that wasn't the point the point was that in the game it pierces reflection etc, then according to the rules presented by Lana, is it?, it counts as doing that.

It was you that brought it up.

That doesnt prove they cannot be swallowed up by their own hurricanes. Theres nothing to suggest it can be seperated, in every form of mist, Kain stays pretty much in the same area, as if his body itself is still just as solid but in the form of mist, although when Kain goes through bars and seeps through cracks and crannies his body is apart so theres no reason a hurricane would stop him from reforming even if it does displace the mist.

No i mean reformed from mist into flesh.

Because technically Nosgoth is not his, their simply using magic, just like mages in Warcraft use magic yet certain beings can stop them from using magic in Warcraft, that doesnt mean they are manipulating the twisting nether, they are simply stopping that mage from using the Nether, the same would be with Kain, stopping Archimonde from using magic, Nosgoth for instance is not Kains in any way, shape or form (although technically it is in a physical sense since he is its only true ruler now) but in a magical sense its nothing like Agamottos dimension which is actually his magic to give or take away, wheras Kain neither created nor is the source for the magic he is cutting off or regulating. No. The guardians and other sorcorors can still use magic, theres just nobody making them weaker ,stronger, regulaing other beings magic....the magic still excists, the same is with anyone in Nosgoth, yet the balance guardian is regulator over all of Nosgoth, including the magic that is not tapped into through the pillars since only Guardians are tapped into the pillars and they do not represent the entirety of Nosgoth. The fact Balance guardians can regulate magic across Nosgoth itself shows Kain would indeed be capable of shutting off Archimonde since Nosgoths magic doesnt actually belong to, or come from the balance guardian, it always excists, however all the other guardians need their connection to the pillar to be attributed to its power.

How is character induced stupidity anything to do with powers? Characters who are under CIS simply means they may not use all their powers depending on their opponent, but since Kains opponent would be Archimonde in this sense, hes not likely to hold back any power..

Only in a gameplay mechanic does it pierce anything and ive still yet to be shown it not being reflected. And it says its based on feats whether their canon or not in a universe, the LOK series is based sololy on games so I dont really know whta your trying to get at, ive never tried to use anything other than the games for Kain since thats all there is of kain....

It was, but what your discussing is also gameplay about finger of death, which is only used in gameplay and whos only stats are in gameplay...

Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
Pardon my ignorance, Burning Though, but if I'm getting this right, Kain can only control magic if it's being drawn from these Pillars?

no thats false, only the guardians draw magic from the pillars, these guardians although aslo under regulation control of the balance guardian (atm its Kain) further need the Balance guardian to keep them connected to their pillar, but theres only a handful of guardians connected to the pillars, that does not explain the part that blance guardians regulate the magic throughout Nosgoth

Hmm. So how does it work? Does Kain simply decides who gets to use magic in his presence? Or does simply nobody gets to use magic in his presence? From what I gather it's the former. Does it require Kain to concentrate/think about it all the time? I mean, if Archimonde assaulted Kain with telekinesis, could he break(temporarily) Kain's control over magic? Because Archimonde's telekinetic assault on Malfurion made it "impossible to think".

Might I add, Malfurion demonstrated a very curious resistance to Archimonde's telekinesis. Archi's assault was so powerful that it flayed the flesh from the bones of a nearby nightsaber, who wasn't even the target of the assault, yet Malfurion survived(albeit barely) when something -- can't remember what right now -- interrupted Archi. It would also be useful to know that this assault wasn't even direct, it was executed through a... beetle 😛

On another instance, Archi's telekinesis ripped off all the scales off of a fully grown dragon.

So even if Kain shut down Archimonde's ability to cast spells(and I'm giving this a fair benefit of a doubt), he would still get ripped to shreds by Archi's telekinesis... or by his claws.

Originally posted by Burning thought
That doesnt prove they cannot be swallowed up by their own hurricanes. Theres nothing to suggest it can be seperated, in every form of mist, Kain stays pretty much in the same area, as if his body itself is still just as solid but in the form of mist, although when Kain goes through bars and seeps through cracks and crannies his body is apart so theres no reason a hurricane would stop him from reforming even if it does displace the mist.

No i mean reformed from mist into flesh.

Because technically Nosgoth is not his, their simply using magic, just like mages in Warcraft use magic yet certain beings can stop them from using magic in Warcraft, that doesnt mean they are manipulating the twisting nether, they are simply stopping that mage from using the Nether, the same would be with Kain, stopping Archimonde from using magic, Nosgoth for instance is not Kains in any way, shape or form (although technically it is in a physical sense since he is its only true ruler now) but in a magical sense its nothing like Agamottos dimension which is actually his magic to give or take away, wheras Kain neither created nor is the source for the magic he is cutting off or regulating. No. The guardians and other sorcorors can still use magic, theres just nobody making them weaker ,stronger, regulaing other beings magic....the magic still excists, the same is with anyone in Nosgoth, yet the balance guardian is regulator over all of Nosgoth, including the magic that is not tapped into through the pillars since only Guardians are tapped into the pillars and they do not represent the entirety of Nosgoth. The fact Balance guardians can regulate magic across Nosgoth itself shows Kain would indeed be capable of shutting off Archimonde since Nosgoths magic doesnt actually belong to, or come from the balance guardian, it always excists, however all the other guardians need their connection to the pillar to be attributed to its power.

How is character induced stupidity anything to do with powers? Characters who are under CIS simply means they may not use all their powers depending on their opponent, but since Kains opponent would be Archimonde in this sense, hes not likely to hold back any power..

Only in a gameplay mechanic does it pierce anything and ive still yet to be shown it not being reflected. And it says its based on feats whether their canon or not in a universe, the LOK series is based sololy on games so I dont really know whta your trying to get at, ive never tried to use anything other than the games for Kain since thats all there is of kain....

It was, but what your discussing is also gameplay about finger of death, which is only used in gameplay and whos only stats are in gameplay...

When Lady Vashj can control hers and not being affected by it then yes it does. Yeah it stays in the same area under normal circumstances, a Hurricane isn't normal circumstances therefore I ask yet again in what weather resembling a Hurricane has Kain performed his mist form and kept it? And yes A Hurricane would stop, from what we have seen Kain needs to keep his Form relative close together so yeah it kind of would. Okay.

Let me make this entirely straight NONE in Warcraft has EVER restricted a Demon from Accessing the Twisted Nether. Medivh has stopped Khelgar but that could just as well have been a silenced spell, but even if it wasn't he didn't restrict Khelgar from the Nether Because Khelgar doesn't draw his power from the Nether. But the Pillars from which the Guardians draw their power is? Apparently so and what is the pillars connected to? Nosgoth. If he gives ore take away the magic like you claim then he is also the source of magic, Let me again refer to that the Balance Guardian is said to be the Hub the center of all the Magic flowing from the pillars. I take that No as a Balance Guardian have never used that power. Thanks for the straight answer. You are just forgetting ore perhaps overlooking one tiny little thing, when the Balance Guardian died the access to the Pillars was closed, not to the magic itself, according to this site
http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Pillar_Guardians
The Balance Guardian have nothing to do with the entire magic of Nosgoth but rather the magic and the magic alone that originated from the pillars, and again it makes perfect sense, if the Guardians could no longer gain access to the power of the pillars because of the link in between gone then why should they be capable of accessing any magic at all?

Because they doesn't use them as we think they should, for instance when Galactus and Odin is thrown into a battle in the comic section then we apply bloodlust because else Galactus would probably begin to feast on the Planet and Odin would depart, with CIS we take into account the mindset of the Characters, that would mean that Kain for instance will not use his regulation of magic because he has never done that like Archimonde beginning his battle with Finger of Death would be equally unlikely, but Kain Beginning with Telekinetic just like Artificial stated below that Archimonde most likely will do, that will be entirely acceptable to use as a opening from both. therefore I asked is CIS on here?

Well I'm gonna have to take Artificial's word on that because I doesn't play WoW and that would require that we locate a video where we know as a fact that the Character getting hit have a Spell reflect on.. How exactly are we going to do that? I know what the LoK is based on but the feat that we are discussing currently Regulation of Magic have never been used against a Opponent therefore it would like Archimondes Telekinetic not be a usable Feat, according to the rules, which I does disagree with, the reason I brought it up was because of you mentioning that you considered things stated in Lore (normally that would equal outside sources like books) more canon then gameplay but as of these rules it's the other way around.

Yes because according to the rules of this forum then what is used is gameplay is considered canon therefore a Finger Of Death against Kain would be Canon, A Hurricane from Malfurion wouldn't and Kain's regulation of magic wouldn't either.

Originally posted by Utrigita
When Lady Vashj can control hers and not being affected by it then yes it does. Yeah it stays in the same area under normal circumstances, a Hurricane isn't normal circumstances therefore I ask yet again in what weather resembling a Hurricane has Kain performed his mist form and kept it? And yes A Hurricane would stop, from what we have seen Kain needs to keep his Form relative close together so yeah it kind of would. Okay.

Let me make this entirely straight NONE in Warcraft has EVER restricted a Demon from Accessing the Twisted Nether. Medivh has stopped Khelgar but that could just as well have been a silenced spell, but even if it wasn't he didn't restrict Khelgar from the Nether Because Khelgar doesn't draw his power from the Nether. But the Pillars from which the Guardians draw their power is? Apparently so and what is the pillars connected to? Nosgoth. If he gives ore take away the magic like you claim then he is also the source of magic, Let me again refer to that the Balance Guardian is said to be the Hub the center of all the Magic flowing from the pillars. I take that No as a Balance Guardian have never used that power. Thanks for the straight answer. You are just forgetting ore perhaps overlooking one tiny little thing, when the Balance Guardian died the access to the Pillars was closed, not to the magic itself, according to this site
http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Pillar_Guardians
The Balance Guardian have nothing to do with the entire magic of Nosgoth but rather the magic and the magic alone that originated from the pillars, and again it makes perfect sense, if the Guardians could no longer gain access to the power of the pillars because of the link in between gone then why should they be capable of accessing any magic at all?

Because they doesn't use them as we think they should, for instance when Galactus and Odin is thrown into a battle in the comic section then we apply bloodlust because else Galactus would probably begin to feast on the Planet and Odin would depart, with CIS we take into account the mindset of the Characters, that would mean that Kain for instance will not use his regulation of magic because he has never done that like Archimonde beginning his battle with Finger of Death would be equally unlikely, but Kain Beginning with Telekinetic just like Artificial stated below that Archimonde most likely will do, that will be entirely acceptable to use as a opening from both. therefore I asked is CIS on here?

Well I'm gonna have to take Artificial's word on that because I doesn't play WoW and that would require that we locate a video where we know as a fact that the Character getting hit have a Spell reflect on.. How exactly are we going to do that? I know what the LoK is based on but the feat that we are discussing currently Regulation of Magic have never been used against a Opponent therefore it would like Archimondes Telekinetic not be a usable Feat, according to the rules, which I does disagree with, the reason I brought it up was because of you mentioning that you considered things stated in Lore (normally that would equal outside sources like books) more canon then gameplay but as of these rules it's the other way around.

Yes because according to the rules of this forum then what is used is gameplay is considered canon therefore a Finger Of Death against Kain would be Canon, A Hurricane from Malfurion wouldn't and Kain's regulation of magic wouldn't either.

When did lady Vashj do this? can you show me a quote of what it says please, perhaps the quote itself your using and 3/4 lines before and after it so I know the background. Nothing points to kain requiring to keep his mist close together, his mist just seems to stay with him where he goes, its likely it couldnt be displaced anymore than kains body would be by a hurricane.

Have any tried? so what does Khelgar draw his magic from? if it was indeed another source nad mediv resistrcted him its the same thing, just a diffrent source.

No, the pillars are not the balance guardians either, its just a passive connection, I dont think the balance guardian can turn on and off the Guardians connection to the pillars. No wrong, hes not the source of magic he simply regulates it...let me clear some things up for you:

-balance guardians are the passive connection to the other guardians, to the pillars...without the connection, they lose the power of thier pillars magic, yet they still have their own, the magic itself of the world still excists, although without their connection its assumed their far weaker since they are losing out on their own pillar power.

-Balance guardains as shown regulate the magic in Nosgoh as a whole, this has no connection to the above

-So in a way, Balance guardians are the hub of the pillars, they are the connection but magic itself does not go out like a light if a balance guardian dies, it simply breaks the link to the pillars and they dont regulate..since their dead.

That website is just a random wikia who anyone can type into, it seems like its a combination of various texts since if you click on the "balance guardian" section on that very page youll find the very quote that can be found on the Dark chroncile website that I use.

And yes, the guardians use magic when the link is gone and Ariel the balance guardian at the time was dead...

CIS is based around as i said before what a character would do in a combat situation, Kains TK has shown to be of little use against larger beings so he wouldnt use that, its more likely he iwll use soul devouring tactics or freeze Archimonde in time with incapacite. The fact Kain has never used regulation in combat (since hes never had the chance, he gaisn it at the end of the final game) is no reason why he wouldnt regulate Archimonde or anyone else, its a perfectly likely course of action if he belives Archimonde to be magic user.

Nothing states a spell or ability has to be actually used in the game/fiction for it to excist or be used in combat....and false, as of these rules, things from the games are canon, it says nothing about gameplay itself, gameplay is a seperate piece of illogicless crap, with gameplay enabled the Paladins shield could indeed survive a full blast from the Living tribunal because in gameplay its immune....its a gameplay mechanic, their never allowed in debates.

No evidence from the games themselves are considered canon, nothing is stated about gameplay, goodluck proving how 20k shadow damage is going to affect Kain who has no health points anyway......

Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
Hmm. So how does it work? Does Kain simply decides who gets to use magic in his presence? Or does simply nobody gets to use magic in his presence? From what I gather it's the former. Does it require Kain to concentrate/think about it all the time? I mean, if Archimonde assaulted Kain with telekinesis, could he break(temporarily) Kain's control over magic? Because Archimonde's telekinetic assault on Malfurion made it "impossible to think".

Might I add, Malfurion demonstrated a very curious resistance to Archimonde's telekinesis. Archi's assault was so powerful that it flayed the flesh from the bones of a nearby nightsaber, who wasn't even the target of the assault, yet Malfurion survived(albeit barely) when something -- can't remember what right now -- interrupted Archi. It would also be useful to know that this assault wasn't even direct, it was executed through a... beetle 😛

On another instance, Archi's telekinesis ripped off all the scales off of a fully grown dragon.

So even if Kain shut down Archimonde's ability to cast spells(and I'm giving this a fair benefit of a doubt), he would still get ripped to shreds by Archi's telekinesis... or by his claws.

Its just regulation, if you regulate something ,you govern it, so Kain is the judge and government behind Magic. And its not just in his presence, its planetwide, (well Nosgoth wide which may be a continent or a planet, sometimes its unclear). I dont think TK is going to stop Kain from using regulation since its just a physical blast, although ime not sure if Kain has to think about it for it to happen, I highly doubt it, its likely a passive or on a whim, since magic would likely be unstable if he had to think about it constantly to keep it under his control.

As intersting as that seems, it sounds like perhaps if your magically strong enough you have resistance to his TK? ime not sure...

Unless Kain becomes a mist form, shields himself making him immune from both of those attacks and simply does a Blood shower, incapaciate or soul rip. And thats if Kain doesnt just power up all his spells with his own regulation, since its unlikely that he will fight without using the full power of his regulatory powers for himself even if for some odd reason he couldnt regulate Archimonde.

Khelgar? I'm sure he meant Khadgar . Khadgar, like any other mage/sorcerer/warlock/whatever draws magic from the Twisting Nether.

About Malfurion. I'm sure he is pretty much immune to his own weather effects. Remember how he messed up Azshara's palace? The thunderstorm he summoned was so strong that it destroyed the enchanted stone tower where the portal was located. Xavius was mere meters away from Malfurion when many bolts of lightning struck Xavius. Malfurion was in the middle of all this, yet not even a single hair fell off of his head.

About the magical resistance to telekinesis. First of all, Malfurion is a druid, he has little magical power. Druidism has nothing to do with the magic of the Twisting Nether(arcane). Dragons have magical prowess that dwarfs that of many mortal spellcasters, yet it didn't help against Archi's telekinetic assault.

About the mist now. Fine, Kain's mist form is solid enough to not be dispersed by a hurricane, tornado or a storm or whatever. All's good and well, but don't turn around a minute later and say that he wouldn't be affected by Finger of Death, telekinesis or any other spell while in mist.

I must admit it I don't know how this 'shield' works. Can it hold out infinite amounts of physical damage? That's assuming that Archi's telekinesis wouldn't pierce it in the first place. Blood Shower? Is that the ability that makes people poop blood 😛 ? Well, Archimonde doesn't have blood, not anymore. Those time stopping abilities better be damn powerful, because otherwise it wouldn't have much of effect against Archi, if at all.

The only way I see it if he could use his regulatory powers to drain Archimonde of his magic. In that case we would see something similar to what we saw at Mt. Hyjal, but the resulting explosion would still kill Kain.

Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
Khelgar? I'm sure he meant [B]Khadgar . Khadgar, like any other mage/sorcerer/warlock/whatever draws magic from the Twisting Nether.[/B]

Yeah Khadgar my bad. I would say that the Arcane magic based on the handbook "lands of mystery" originates (mostly) from the well of eternity, not saying that they cannot draw power from the twisted nether but most mages will most likely draw from the Arcane energy that is being spread from the Well.

Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
Khelgar? I'm sure he meant [B]Khadgar . Khadgar, like any other mage/sorcerer/warlock/whatever draws magic from the Twisting Nether.

About Malfurion. I'm sure he is pretty much immune to his own weather effects. Remember how he messed up Azshara's palace? The thunderstorm he summoned was so strong that it destroyed the enchanted stone tower where the portal was located. Xavius was mere meters away from Malfurion when many bolts of lightning struck Xavius. Malfurion was in the middle of all this, yet not even a single hair fell off of his head.

About the magical resistance to telekinesis. First of all, Malfurion is a druid, he has little magical power. Druidism has nothing to do with the magic of the Twisting Nether(arcane). Dragons have magical prowess that dwarfs that of many mortal spellcasters, yet it didn't help against Archi's telekinetic assault.

About the mist now. Fine, Kain's mist form is solid enough to not be dispersed by a hurricane, tornado or a storm or whatever. All's good and well, but don't turn around a minute later and say that he wouldn't be affected by Finger of Death, telekinesis or any other spell while in mist.

I must admit it I don't know how this 'shield' works. Can it hold out infinite amounts of physical damage? That's assuming that Archi's telekinesis wouldn't pierce it in the first place. Blood Shower? Is that the ability that makes people poop blood 😛 ? Well, Archimonde doesn't have blood, not anymore. Those time stopping abilities better be damn powerful, because otherwise it wouldn't have much of effect against Archi, if at all.

The only way I see it if he could use his regulatory powers to drain Archimonde of his magic. In that case we would see something similar to what we saw at Mt. Hyjal, but the resulting explosion would still kill Kain. [/B]

hm ok

But for all we know thats just luck, lightning does not always strike where you imagine it would, its still not proven that Malfurion is immune to all natural effects that he creates, a hurricane could still indeed harm him or toss him about. It wouldnt make sense if it didnt.

Druidism is still magic, natural magic....and Malfurion is not really much of a mortal.

Why? they are all physical or at least those you listed there, theres no reason why a bolt of energy would destroy mist, it would simply float through, and a telekinetic attack woudlnt do anything to a cloud of mist and I didnt say the mist was "solid" per se, simply never broken, even if kain is moving through bars or seeping through things, the mist doesnt get broken or move apart and as I said before, theres no reason why he doesnt just reform into the mist wherever it may have gone to after the hurricane, it doesnt just cease to be Kain does it.

The shield is powered by Kains magic which is indeed infnite unless he puts regulation on himself but unless kain is playing stupid in this gauntlet I dont see him doing that. But the shield is never broken by anything in LOK, ofc the only time Kain uses the shield he is in his weakest form as well and does not have access to the regulation the balance guardian would possess. Does anything prove he doesnt have blood? why? their just bolts that freeze time, Archimonde has never resistaed being frozen in time before to my knowledge...

Well, the resulting explosion would, unelss Kain is simply a gust of mist or is inside the shield.

Originally posted by Burning thought
hm ok

But for all we know thats just luck, lightning does not always strike where you imagine it would, its still not proven that Malfurion is immune to all natural effects that he creates, a hurricane could still indeed harm him or toss him about. It wouldnt make sense if it didnt.

Druidism is still magic, natural magic....and Malfurion is not really much of a mortal.

Why? they are all physical or at least those you listed there, theres no reason why a bolt of energy would destroy mist, it would simply float through, and a telekinetic attack woudlnt do anything to a cloud of mist and I didnt say the mist was "solid" per se, simply never broken, even if kain is moving through bars or seeping through things, the mist doesnt get broken or move apart and as I said before, theres no reason why he doesnt just reform into the mist wherever it may have gone to after the hurricane, it doesnt just cease to be Kain does it.

The shield is powered by Kains magic which is indeed infnite unless he puts regulation on himself but unless kain is playing stupid in this gauntlet I dont see him doing that. But the shield is never broken by anything in LOK, ofc the only time Kain uses the shield he is in his weakest form as well and does not have access to the regulation the balance guardian would possess. Does anything prove he doesnt have blood? why? their just bolts that freeze time, Archimonde has never resistaed being frozen in time before to my knowledge...

Well, the resulting explosion would, unelss Kain is simply a gust of mist or is inside the shield.

Damn, what don't you know about Kain? 😛

the things that are not shown in the games 😛 yet....

^Hehe, you know more than the damn creators lol.

I wish

So you're saying that Kain has infinite magic? So he's basically omnipotent? He puts up this shield around himself and nobody can hurt him?

What's to say that telekinesis couldn't affect mist? It's not something intangible, it's dissolved water. Same with spells.

Not omnipotent, you cannot have true omnipotence with access to just a handfull of diffrent magics, Kain has his varied spells, he has his connection to the pillars to empower their aspects within himself, but at most, an omnipotent being would need far more than that, what use is a shielding spell of infnite power when your opponent can think you out of excistence? an omnipotent being would not be defeated like that but Kain could.

Its not intangible but you would have to prove Archimonde can Tk things as small as mist droplets. And not just any spell would be effective, a blast of energy would not help much against such a thin material.

Originally posted by Burning thought
When did lady Vashj do this? can you show me a quote of what it says please, perhaps the quote itself your using and 3/4 lines before and after it so I know the background. Nothing points to kain requiring to keep his mist close together, his mist just seems to stay with him where he goes, its likely it couldnt be displaced anymore than kains body would be by a hurricane.

Have any tried? so what does Khelgar draw his magic from? if it was indeed another source nad mediv resistrcted him its the same thing, just a diffrent source.

No, the pillars are not the balance guardians either, its just a passive connection, I dont think the balance guardian can turn on and off the Guardians connection to the pillars. No wrong, hes not the source of magic he simply regulates it...let me clear some things up for you:

-balance guardians are the passive connection to the other guardians, to the pillars...without the connection, they lose the power of thier pillars magic, yet they still have their own, the magic itself of the world still excists, although without their connection its assumed their far weaker since they are losing out on their own pillar power.

-Balance guardains as shown regulate the magic in Nosgoh as a whole, this has no connection to the above

-So in a way, Balance guardians are the hub of the pillars, they are the connection but magic itself does not go out like a light if a balance guardian dies, it simply breaks the link to the pillars and they dont regulate..since their dead.

That website is just a random wikia who anyone can type into, it seems like its a combination of various texts since if you click on the "balance guardian" section on that very page youll find the very quote that can be found on the Dark chroncile website that I use.

And yes, the guardians use magic when the link is gone and Ariel the balance guardian at the time was dead...

CIS is based around as i said before what a character would do in a combat situation, Kains TK has shown to be of little use against larger beings so he wouldnt use that, its more likely he iwll use soul devouring tactics or freeze Archimonde in time with incapacite. The fact Kain has never used regulation in combat (since hes never had the chance, he gaisn it at the end of the final game) is no reason why he wouldnt regulate Archimonde or anyone else, its a perfectly likely course of action if he belives Archimonde to be magic user.

Nothing states a spell or ability has to be actually used in the game/fiction for it to excist or be used in combat....and false, as of these rules, things from the games are canon, it says nothing about gameplay itself, gameplay is a seperate piece of illogicless crap, with gameplay enabled the Paladins shield could indeed survive a full blast from the Living tribunal because in gameplay its immune....its a gameplay mechanic, their never allowed in debates.

No evidence from the games themselves are considered canon, nothing is stated about gameplay, goodluck proving how 20k shadow damage is going to affect Kain who has no health points anyway......

Well I believe it's a ability for her in WoW, I know it's a ability for her in Warcraft, and I know that it's a ability for her in RPG that is by Warcraft consideret lore so atleast two places where I know as fact that she has access to them. Then the substance he is transmuting himself into sure as hell isn’t mist. And yeah the Mist stay with him when he moves around in a relative quiet weather.

I would say that he draws his power (based on the Land of mystery handbook) from the well of eternity. Not from the Twisted Nether, the Arcane magic may arrive to the Well from the Nether but nothing suggest from the handbook that the mages draw the majority of their magic from the Nether, only the High Elfes do that and that is for reasons entirely different.

Now you are just rabbling, You have just said that when Ariel died the Guardians lost their connection to the pillars so to now turn around and make the claim that the Guardian of Balance have no control over the pillars doesn’t make any sense what so ever.

I love the way you contradict yourself, right above you said that the Guardians didn’t need the Balance Guardian to have continued access to the pillars.

Then again I will ask the Question: IF the Guardians lost their connection to the Pillars when the Balance Guardian died and was no longer capable of drawing magic from the Pillars then how was they still capable of drawing magic from Nosgoth? The way I see it the Balance Guardian has one function and one function only: To maintain the Balance between the magic in Nosgoth Between the Guardians and to accomplishe that goal they control the magical powers from the Pillars.

Yes I know I have said that before, but you forget that when it’s taken into context it’s only the Pillars that are being refered to not the Magic of Nosgoth as a whole.

Sorry but so is the LoK that you have used, both a fanbased websites none imo holds any more crediability then the Last, I cannot see why the Website you have found which openly acknowlegde itself as being a fanmade website is better then the One I have located, the only difference is that on that site the other magic in Nosgoth will act as a reference to the magic originating from the pillars.

But they doesn't draw Magic from the Pillars you said so yourself remember?

they just had no connection to their pillar, thus making them weak

And I will happily ask you to inform me again why it is that the Guardians when Ariel gone can still tap into the Magic of Nosgoth but is unable to tap into the Pillars if Ariel controlled the entire magic of Nosgoth all magic would have shut down just like the pillars did.

You see with CIS to say that Kain will use Regulation will be utterly and complete speculation, since he has never done it theirfore it is not a avaible tactic for him to use, where as Soul Attack ore Time Stop is entirely usable if that is how he normally acts when confronted with beings that he senses are a immidiate threat to his current survival.

Read what is says please "For the purposes of this forum, only feats seen in the actual video games are considered canon." so how on earth you turned that into doesn't have to be used to the usable is a mystery to me, because how a Ability can be used in games without showing some effect is a mystery to me. I didn't make the Rules BT if you have a problem with them address it to Lara, I just didn't want you to walk around in the belief that Books hold a higher degree of crediability then the games themselves.

Yes they are consideret Canon and what is canon is obvious the abilities that is being used hence the words feats theirfore Finger of Death Usable in a debate it isn't the books etc that decides what a Character has access to but the game itself according to the rules. He has no Health Points? That's strange I recall him losing health when being hit in Defiance.