Gauntlet: Kain VS. Warcraft

Started by ArtificialGlory6 pages

Anyway, I've read that Kain is The Scion of Balance of Nosgoth and that he regulates everyone's magic in Nosgoth. Seeing as how fights like these usually take place on a neutral ground, Kain wouldn't have access to those Pillars or at least wouldn't be able to control Archi's magic(not like he was ever shown to face somebody of Archimonde's magical power and be able to regulate). Yes, he gained it at the end of the game and we must make assumptions. This is starting to look horribly alike to a certain other very active thread on this forum 😛

Where is it said/shown that this shield can absorb infinite amounts of physical damage?

Well, when Archimonde was wounded by Malorne, he "bled" some kinda green, flaming liquid.

About the mist. Well, Archimonde could just make a telekinetic "bubble" around the mist, and then squeeze it. He has never been shown to do this, although such an advanced TK user like Archi should be able to do this. Of course this is just some "creativity" and speculation from my side.

Even though spells like Finger of Death might not be able hit Kain while in mist form, curses would definitely work.

Originally posted by Utrigita
Well I believe it's a ability for her in WoW, I know it's a ability for her in Warcraft, and I know that it's a ability for her in RPG that is by Warcraft consideret lore so atleast two places where I know as fact that she has access to them. Then the substance he is transmuting himself into sure as hell isn’t mist. And yeah the Mist stay with him when he moves around in a relative quiet weather.

I would say that he draws his power (based on the Land of mystery handbook) from the well of eternity. Not from the Twisted Nether, the Arcane magic may arrive to the Well from the Nether but nothing suggest from the handbook that the mages draw the majority of their magic from the Nether, only the High Elfes do that and that is for reasons entirely different.

Now you are just rabbling, You have just said that when Ariel died the Guardians lost their connection to the pillars so to now turn around and make the claim that the Guardian of Balance have no control over the pillars doesn’t make any sense what so ever.

I love the way you contradict yourself, right above you said that the Guardians didn’t need the Balance Guardian to have continued access to the pillars.

Then again I will ask the Question: IF the Guardians lost their connection to the Pillars when the Balance Guardian died and was no longer capable of drawing magic from the Pillars then how was they still capable of drawing magic from Nosgoth? The way I see it the Balance Guardian has one function and one function only: To maintain the Balance between the magic in Nosgoth Between the Guardians and to accomplishe that goal they control the magical powers from the Pillars.

Yes I know I have said that before, but you forget that when it’s taken into context it’s only the Pillars that are being refered to not the Magic of Nosgoth as a whole.

Sorry but so is the LoK that you have used, both a fanbased websites none imo holds any more crediability then the Last, I cannot see why the Website you have found which openly acknowlegde itself as being a fanmade website is better then the One I have located, the only difference is that on that site the other magic in Nosgoth will act as a reference to the magic originating from the pillars.

But they doesn't draw Magic from the Pillars you said so yourself remember?

And I will happily ask you to inform me again why it is that the Guardians when Ariel gone can still tap into the Magic of Nosgoth but is unable to tap into the Pillars if Ariel controlled the entire magic of Nosgoth all magic would have shut down just like the pillars did.

You see with CIS to say that Kain will use Regulation will be utterly and complete speculation, since he has never done it theirfore it is not a avaible tactic for him to use, where as Soul Attack ore Time Stop is entirely usable if that is how he normally acts when confronted with beings that he senses are a immidiate threat to his current survival.

Read what is says please "For the purposes of this forum, only feats [b]seen in the actual video games are considered canon." so how on earth you turned that into doesn't have to be used to the usable is a mystery to me, because how a Ability can be used in games without showing some effect is a mystery to me. I didn't make the Rules BT if you have a problem with them address it to Lara, I just didn't want you to walk around in the belief that Books hold a higher degree of crediability then the games themselves.

Yes they are consideret Canon and what is canon is obvious the abilities that is being used hence the words feats theirfore Finger of Death Usable in a debate it isn't the books etc that decides what a Character has access to but the game itself according to the rules. He has no Health Points? That's strange I recall him losing health when being hit in Defiance. [/B]

You could have said this earlier, your still using gameplay mechanics to help your point....and yes its mist, as everything in the game says so, the fact remains he has a huge amount of control over the stuff to a degree that its the same as his spirit in a patch of mist, or thats how id describe it, ofc how it works 100% I dont actually know, we simply know he doesnt break apart, no breeze stops him and he stays pretty solid form.

Ime not rabbling at all, are you not reading the post, the Balance guardians have no CONTROL which means shes not turning the pillars on or off at all, the fact they lose their magic when the balance guardian dies is not control from the balance guardian is it....the guardians dead, what are you talking about? you seem to have gotten very confused....the Guardains need the balance guardian to tap them into their pillars, its passive, as long as the Balance Guardian excsists, they have their connection, if it dies, the connection is gone...simple...the Guardain of balance is not contrlling the connection to the pillars.

No i said Guardians did not need access to the pillars to use magic....ive contradicted nothing..

I dont know how they are capable, as ive said 1000 times, the pillars and the balance guardian are not the source of magic itself, simply the source of the strongest magic from the pillar of choice. The Balance guardian does nothing with the connection between the other guardians and their pillars hmself/herself on purpose, simply a passive link.

My quote that I use and what youll find on the wikia your looking at if you click on "balance guardian" is the very one that says they regulate magic in Nosgoth, not simply the pillars.

Until you click on "balance guardian" and find the exact quote from the site I used, and yes its far less useful because its just a wikia, ime sure anyone can go on there and edit it and we can see that its not using any of its own knowledge, its just using bits and bobs, wheras the site I used is confirmed as a known fansite.

yes I did, I said they got weak, nowehre in that quote did i say they never take magic from the pillars. Guardians take magic from the pillars...

Balance guardains can regulate the magic, they are not the source, why would magic just shut down just because the regulator has gone? it just means the power of magic is at its default value and the Guardians cannot use their pillars power.

With CIS the only diffrence is that characters will act the way they would in a situation realistic to their emtions, the fact Kain has not shown he would use it doesnt make a diffrence to that fact, its obvious and logic that the guy is going to use magic regulation on a magic foe....

Ime not using feats, ime using abilities 😄 I never said books do Utrigos, ime saying what with all your evidence crushed youve got no credible evidence for your characters other than the video games the characters orginated in, as in, their cutscenes, since the cutscenes are few and far between in Warcraft, your pretty much ruined in any debate if you want to use abilities without actual canon meanings that are more than "does 10,000 damage".

nobody considers them canon and furthermoer gameplay mechanics are never used in debates, otherwise Kain gets checkpoints in the battle and can resurrect at will, which means Archimonde and the rest of the Warcraft host are ruined because they dont have checkpoints.....you would need the resources to rebuilt archimonde from your hero alter to regain him if he dies, wheras Kain will continually come back through a checkpoint.

He has a health bar, but theres no numbers, so 10,000 shadow damage is meaningless 🙄

Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
Anyway, I've read that Kain is The Scion of Balance of [B]Nosgoth and that he regulates everyone's magic in Nosgoth. Seeing as how fights like these usually take place on a neutral ground, Kain wouldn't have access to those Pillars or at least wouldn't be able to control Archi's magic(not like he was ever shown to face somebody of Archimonde's magical power and be able to regulate). Yes, he gained it at the end of the game and we must make assumptions. This is starting to look horribly alike to a certain other very active thread on this forum 😛

Where is it said/shown that this shield can absorb infinite amounts of physical damage?

Well, when Archimonde was wounded by Malorne, he "bled" some kinda green, flaming liquid.

About the mist. Well, Archimonde could just make a telekinetic "bubble" around the mist, and then squeeze it. He has never been shown to do this, although such an advanced TK user like Archi should be able to do this. Of course this is just some "creativity" and speculation from my side.

Even though spells like Finger of Death might not be able hit Kain while in mist form, curses would definitely work. [/B]

Thats like saying Archimonde is a powerful magic user in Wacraft and he only has cast spells in warcraft and he has only access to the Twisting nether in Warcraft.....ofc it doesnt work does it?

its in the unwritten rules of any debate that by default all characters have access to all their abilities no matter where they are from and that the abilities work the same as if they were in the world they had come from.

Theres no assumption here.

Its just logic, Kains shield is made up of Kains magical energy, Kains magical energy is infnite.....clear enough for you?

so he "bled", so he has blood, the fact its firey, or a strange colour doesnt mean its not blood....

Creativity and specualtion is not usable in a debate, its logicless because Archimonde has never done it, nor would anything point to it being likely considering TK is just telekinetic force, forming a bubble of TK is like a completly diffretn ability all together rather than a blast.

Depends what the curses do, you have to realise Kain is an undead vampire whos soul has proven several times to be untouchable and that he has zero blood in his body....

Originally posted by Burning thought
Its just logic, Kains shield is made up of Kains magical energy, Kains magical energy is infnite.....clear enough for you?[/B]

Where does it state he has infinite amount of magical energy?

Originally posted by Burning thought
so he "bled", so he has blood, the fact its firey, or a strange colour doesnt mean its not blood....[/B]

Well, if you can call it blood. Definitely not blood like humans or even vampires have.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Creativity and specualtion is not usable in a debate, its logicless because Archimonde has never done it, nor would anything point to it being likely considering TK is just telekinetic force, forming a bubble of TK is like a completly diffretn ability all together rather than a blast.[/B]

Yes, it's speculation and I'm not exactly saying that it holds much water here. And while Archimonde can perform TK blasts, it obviously wasn't a 'blast' that Archi was using on Malfurion, Malfurion was getting crushed(more accurately his head/brain 'squeezed'😉, not blown away.

Depends what the curses do, you have to realise Kain is an undead vampire whos soul has proven several times to be untouchable and that he has zero blood in his body....

Curses that ruin/burn the body, turn his target into stone, melt the flesh and skin from the bones.

Btw, Nosgoth is a world(continent?), Warcraft is an entire universe.

Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
Where does it state he has infinite amount of magical energy?

Well, if you can call it blood. Definitely not blood like humans or even vampires have.

Yes, it's speculation and I'm not exactly saying that it holds much water here. And while Archimonde can perform TK blasts, it obviously wasn't a 'blast' that Archi was using on Malfurion, Malfurion was getting crushed(more accurately his head/brain 'squeezed'😉, not blown away.

Depends what the curses do, you have to realise Kain is an undead vampire whos soul has proven several times to be untouchable and that he has zero blood in his body....

Curses that ruin/burn the body, turn his target into stone, melt the flesh and skin from the bones.

Btw, Nosgoth is a world(continent?), Warcraft is an entire universe.

When it says he can regulate it, if you govern and control magic itself, your not going to use any less than all of it are you for yourself, especialyy not in a battle that could cost you your life otherwise. Kain in this fight would use all the magic in his shield wouldnt he or w/e other powers he needs to use at the time. And if he can drain Archimondess magic as well, he would have access to the power of the twisting Nether as well, but he wouldnt need it, it would just be interesting to note.

no its not, but Kain kills demons and drinks their blood in Bllood omen with blood shower and their blood is poison for him because its green, you have to avoid it.

Well its similiar, Tk blast, this sounds like less than a blast, its just a pressure of TK. Can does a weaker one on the neck of Moebius.

Everything in warcraft revolves around one world though, you only hear about the others in the short backstory, and regardless how would that change anything? it doesnt, the fact is that your saying just because someone is from a diffrent universe or fiction that he wouldnt use his power, when in this neutral universe, its accepted all characters can use all their abilities otherwise its not logically an all out fight.

So it is simply stated at the end of the last game, correct?

no he gains it at the end, the powers and abilities of the guardians are stated throughout the games, however at the end we see Kain regain this power as interestinly every soul of every Balance guardian to ever live empowers him, the broken corrupted pieces of Kains soul are also restored, they were corrupted I think by Nupruptor if I get my BO 1 correct who corrupted most of the guardians if not all with his Psychic scream across the world, but at the end of Defiance, Kain is healed and becomes fully powered.

Also by logic, Kain also has the powers of his sons due to their souls joining with his at the end of defiance, this means Kain is now immune to damage by water from Rahab, can go completly immaterial from Malchiah etc etc

And how many times has he been shown using these powers?

Originally posted by Burning thought
You could have said this earlier, your still using gameplay mechanics to help your point....and yes its mist, as everything in the game says so, the fact remains he has a huge amount of control over the stuff to a degree that its the same as his spirit in a patch of mist, or thats how id describe it, ofc how it works 100% I dont actually know, we simply know he doesnt break apart, no breeze stops him and he stays pretty solid form.

Ime not rabbling at all, are you not reading the post, [b]the Balance guardians have no CONTROL which means shes not turning the pillars on or off at all, the fact they lose their magic when the balance guardian dies is not control from the balance guardian is it....the guardians dead, what are you talking about? you seem to have gotten very confused....the Guardains need the balance guardian to tap them into their pillars, its passive, as long as the Balance Guardian excsists, they have their connection, if it dies, the connection is gone...simple...the Guardain of balance is not contrlling the connection to the pillars.

No i said Guardians did not need access to the pillars to use magic....ive contradicted nothing..

I dont know how they are capable, as ive said 1000 times, the pillars and the balance guardian are not the source of magic itself, simply the source of the strongest magic from the pillar of choice. The Balance guardian does nothing with the connection between the other guardians and their pillars hmself/herself on purpose, simply a passive link.

My quote that I use and what youll find on the wikia your looking at if you click on "balance guardian" is the very one that says they regulate magic in Nosgoth, not simply the pillars.

Until you click on "balance guardian" and find the exact quote from the site I used, and yes its far less useful because its just a wikia, ime sure anyone can go on there and edit it and we can see that its not using any of its own knowledge, its just using bits and bobs, wheras the site I used is confirmed as a known fansite.

yes I did, I said they got weak, nowehre in that quote did i say they never take magic from the pillars. Guardians take magic from the pillars...

Balance guardains can regulate the magic, they are not the source, why would magic just shut down just because the regulator has gone? it just means the power of magic is at its default value and the Guardians cannot use their pillars power.

With CIS the only diffrence is that characters will act the way they would in a situation realistic to their emtions, the fact Kain has not shown he would use it doesnt make a diffrence to that fact, its obvious and logic that the guy is going to use magic regulation on a magic foe....

Ime not using feats, ime using abilities 😄 I never said books do Utrigos, ime saying what with all your evidence crushed youve got no credible evidence for your characters other than the video games the characters orginated in, as in, their cutscenes, since the cutscenes are few and far between in Warcraft, your pretty much ruined in any debate if you want to use abilities without actual canon meanings that are more than "does 10,000 damage".

nobody considers them canon and furthermoer gameplay mechanics are never used in debates, otherwise Kain gets checkpoints in the battle and can resurrect at will, which means Archimonde and the rest of the Warcraft host are ruined because they dont have checkpoints.....you would need the resources to rebuilt archimonde from your hero alter to regain him if he dies, wheras Kain will continually come back through a checkpoint.

He has a health bar, but theres no numbers, so 10,000 shadow damage is meaningless 🙄 [/B]

I’m using abilities just like you BT. Whirlwind is a ability for Lady Vashj like a storm is a ability for Malfurion both in the RPG and in the Books. Agree to disagree then because we are beginning to run in circles on this point.

What? Yes I’m getting confused because you are contradicting yourself in a increasing rate, at one hand you is saying that the Guadian of Balance isn’t required to maintain the connection between the other Guardians and the Pillars and with the other you say that the Balance Guardian is required. Read what you have written you are saying that the Guardians need the Balance Guardian to maintain their connection while you directly afterwards is saying that it isn’t the case, so perhaps you can understand my confusion.

Let me just quote what you said.

No, the pillars are not the balance guardians either, its just a passive connection, I dont think the balance guardian can turn on and off the Guardians connection to the pillars. No wrong, hes not the source of magic he simply regulates it...let me clear some things up for you:

-balance guardians are the passive connection to the other guardians, to the pillars...without the connection, they lose the power of thier pillars magic, yet they still have their own, the magic itself of the world still excists, although without their connection its assumed their far weaker since they are losing out on their own pillar power.

I was (specificly?) addressing the connection between the Pillars and the Balance Guardian, but perhaps you can tell me how you doesn’t think that the Balance Guardian can turn off the Pillars and their connection to the individual Guardian when that is exactly what happened when the Balance Guardian died. And let me ask you another thing BT how can the connection be passive while it apparently still requires that the Guardian control it?

Then might I suggest that until you find out how they do it? Because if they can draw magic when they are left with no connection to the pillars and their hub, then Archimonde that has never required either will most certainly be capable of drawing magic as well.

And if you use the site just before you would notice that it’s only a reference to the pillars, that is the difference BT, also one thing that you should notice is that the Balance Guardian ”influenced” the regulation not controlled the regulation, and you own site says so too.

Yeah and a Fansite is sure to be entirely legatime on the a line with the Original site? Wrong that Site is also made from Fans just like the Wiki entry is, had it been made by the developers it would hold much more weight, the only real difference is that the site you have is being controlled by a single person where as the wiki is editable by several, and who are to say that the one person is more right then the others?

But you have just said that when the Balance Guardian died they had no access to the Pillars.

balance guardians are the passive connection to the other guardians, to the pillars...without the connection, they lose the power of thier pillars magic, yet they still have their own, the magic itself of the world still excists, although without their connection its assumed their far weaker since they are losing out on their own pillar power.

Guardians can from my point of view only control the magic originating from the pillars, else it would make no sense to why the Pillars when the Guardian dies becomes shut down, while the rest of Nosgoth can still draw magic.

Oh yes it does if Kain have never used that ability against any foe whatsoever then trying to apply it to a debate with CIS active would be speculation and assumptions and remember what you said about that

Creativity and specualtion is not usable in a debate, its logicless because Archimonde has never done it

Likewise it is logicless to assume that Kain would use his Regulation of magic to depower Arhcimonde because a Balance Guardian has never utilized the regulation they wield in that manner.

And you would notice that I’m not one of them that says we should, what I have said again and again but you repeatly seems to be capable of overlook is that strictly speaking according to the rules only feats shown usable non-canon vs canon. But as also said she is leaving the details to the threadstarter. Well and in Legacy of Kain he returns their when he has been killed to technically it would count as a kill theirby a win.

I wasn’t bringing up the amount of damaged dealt merely that by the rules usable according to the mod then the Finger of Death is usable in a debate.

Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
And how many times has he been shown using these powers?

None

Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
And how many times has he been shown using these powers?

Utrigous answered. why do people ask obvious questiosn after ive said the last game was Defiance...which just happens to be the very end, the final cinematic where kain gains powers.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Utrigous answered. why do people ask obvious questiosn after ive said the last game was Defiance...which just happens to be the very end, the final cinematic where kain gains powers.

It's Utrigita 😛

And you see that is my problem with using Scion Kain, that he is a character that we have absolutely no showings from, what he can do will from my point of view always be speculation. Theirfore BT if CIS is active well again we cannot use him because we doesn't know how he will react.

Now had we had a showing of a Balance Guardian that used his control over the magic of Nosgoth to make sure that another Character couldn't access magic whatsoever, I would be reluctant to use the feat (because of the different magic discussed before) but in the end still accept it, but BT from my point of view we stand with Nothing that supports that. Sure I can see that in some ways the quotes can be seen as Kain with control over all magic but when no proof of it actually exist, then my debate mind jumps right out of the closet and hammers me in the head saying that such a ability used in a combat scenario will always be speculation.

Basically that is what we have spent the last four pages on, arguing over quotes that we analyse and jugde entire differently. We wouldn't get any further then this it will just be running around in circles for the next five pages, imo Kain stops at Archimonde.

So just like Sephiroth was stated to be the most powerful person in FF7 but has never been actually shown to use his powers, Kain was stated to gain these "infinite" powers, regulation or whatever but has never been shown using any of it?

I suggest from now on we use actual feats that were seen, not implied or suggested, or assumed. There are enough double-standards as it is.

Originally posted by Utrigita
I’m using abilities just like you BT. Whirlwind is a ability for Lady Vashj like a storm is a ability for Malfurion both in the RPG and in the Books. Agree to disagree then because we are beginning to run in circles on this point.

What? Yes I’m getting confused because you are contradicting yourself in a increasing rate, at one hand you is saying that the Guadian of Balance isn’t required to maintain the connection between the other Guardians and the Pillars and with the other you say that the Balance Guardian is required. Read what you have written you are saying that the Guardians need the Balance Guardian to maintain their connection while you directly afterwards is saying that it isn’t the case, so perhaps you can understand my confusion.

Let me just quote what you said.

I was (specificly?) addressing the connection between the Pillars and the Balance Guardian, but perhaps you can tell me how you doesn’t think that the Balance Guardian can turn off the Pillars and their connection to the individual Guardian when that is exactly what happened when the Balance Guardian died. And let me ask you another thing BT how can the connection be passive while it apparently still requires that the Guardian control it?

Then might I suggest that until you find out how they do it? Because if they can draw magic when they are left with no connection to the pillars and their hub, then Archimonde that has never required either will most certainly be capable of drawing magic as well.

And if you use the site just before you would notice that it’s only a reference to the pillars, that is the difference BT, also one thing that you should notice is that the Balance Guardian ”influenced” the regulation not controlled the regulation, and you own site says so too.

Yeah and a Fansite is sure to be entirely legatime on the a line with the Original site? Wrong that Site is also made from Fans just like the Wiki entry is, had it been made by the developers it would hold much more weight, the only real difference is that the site you have is being controlled by a single person where as the wiki is editable by several, and who are to say that the one person is more right then the others?

But you have just said that when the Balance Guardian died they had no access to the Pillars.

Guardians can from my point of view only control the magic originating from the pillars, else it would make no sense to why the Pillars when the Guardian dies becomes shut down, while the rest of Nosgoth can still draw magic.

Oh yes it does if Kain have never used that ability against any foe whatsoever then trying to apply it to a debate with CIS active would be speculation and assumptions and remember what you said about that

Likewise it is logicless to assume that Kain would use his Regulation of magic to depower Arhcimonde because a Balance Guardian has never utilized the regulation they wield in that manner.

And you would notice that I’m not one of them that says we should, what I have said again and again but you repeatly seems to be capable of overlook is that strictly speaking according to the rules only feats shown usable non-canon vs canon. But as also said she is leaving the details to the threadstarter. Well and in Legacy of Kain he returns their when he has been killed to technically it would count as a kill theirby a win.

I wasn’t bringing up the amount of damaged dealt merely that by the rules usable according to the mod then the Finger of Death is usable in a debate.

None

yes but the abilities ime using have factual values, mist form is mist, and its shown to be able to do things, your using gameplay mechanics...Kains spirit death for example is obvious for what it does and Kain tells us himself what it does...your assuming things from the gameplay mechanics themselves.

Ive not said that at all and ive not contradicted myself, I think your just assuming constantly that the pillars are the supreme source of every magic in Nosgoth, this has been proven false because even without a Balance guardian, said magic still excists, the only beings who benefit from the pillars is the guardians themselves.

Balance guardians passive connection with pillars required for Guardians full power, their not required for magic in the entire Nosgoth

Can you outline the actual contradiction?

Because the Balance guardian is dead, its a passive connection, a balance Guardian has never shown to be able to say "fck you guardians, ime turning off the pillar powers!" And as it says quite clearly the Balancee guardian regulates all the magic in Nosgoth, it doesnt say they have to regulate connections between pillars...the connection has little to do really with magic power overall, its simply a connecton all guardians have unless the balance guardian dies, its not regulated by balance guardian.

your still confused, I think your adding things from your own mind when you judge my posts, the pillars are not the hub of all magic and if they were thats still zero meaning to the connection to the pillars, not every being in Nosgoth has a link to the pillars...only the guardians, which is lost when Balance guardian is dead, their connection lost doesnt mean they have no magic....as ive said before Balance guardians regulate all the magic so Archimonde is no exception in a neutral world battle.

The role of the Balance Guardians was a reglatory one; their magic influenced the regulation of the other magic in Nosgoth. We can identify three Balance Guardians

Its simply saying their magic influenced it, not them by themselves...its the same thing, controlling regulation through magic, it wouldnt say regulation woudl it or that regulation was the Guardains role.

Its not a simple fansite, its an information site, it gives deep information on the games and often has sources for its information for example:

http://www.dark-chronicle.co.uk/lok/guardians.php

which is about the guardians says at the top

The generic abilities given below are based on the Players section of the Silicon Knights Blood Omen FAQ, and the descriptions it gave of the Blood Omen era Guardians.

A wikia is never a case for fact, when info is taken into account, Wikia often comes last, simply because it can be edited by anyone, and its shown a lack of professoinalism in the fact its simply copied the Dark chronicles info when you click on the guardians...

If guardians could only use magic from the pillars they wouldnt be able to use magic when Ariel died and Kain battled them all....its obvious the pillars are simply their main power plant, ofc without it, theyve shown they can still use magic regardless.

wtf, thats like saying a man with a gun who shoots wolves at his farm could under no circumstances use that gun if a person attacked him, putting him in a combat situation so he cannot use his guns!, ofc its nonsense, your just trying to save the Warcraft characters magic from Kains regulation.

Thats not an assumption, its logic....factual logic, as I said above, its riduclous to think Kain could not use it in combat, its purpose would be exactley the same, regulating magic....

and in what manner? theres only one manner...regulation, simple....Archimonde forming a bubble out of TK is a completly diffrent ability alltogether.

false, he returns there when he is badly wounded....so no it wouldnt be a win, not even a defeat really, no more than using a healing spell of a paladin would be a defeat for the paladin...

I never said it want usable, i meant we shouldnt use it because not only has it never been used outside of gameplay mechanics but more importantly, all it is, is gameplay mechanics, it has no real fact about the spell to gauge its real power level.

Originally posted by Utrigita
It's Utrigita 😛

And you see that is my problem with using Scion Kain, that he is a character that we have absolutely no showings from, what he can do will from my point of view always be speculation. Theirfore BT if CIS is active well again we cannot use him because we doesn't know how he will react.

Now had we had a showing of a Balance Guardian that used his control over the magic of Nosgoth to make sure that another Character couldn't access magic whatsoever, I would be reluctant to use the feat (because of the different magic discussed before) but in the end still accept it, but BT from my point of view we stand with Nothing that supports that. Sure I can see that in some ways the quotes can be seen as Kain with control over all magic but when no proof of it actually exist, then my debate mind jumps right out of the closet and hammers me in the head saying that such a ability used in a combat scenario will always be speculation.

Basically that is what we have spent the last four pages on, arguing over quotes that we analyse and jugde entire differently. We wouldn't get any further then this it will just be running around in circles for the next five pages, imo Kain stops at Archimonde.

Its still Kain, ofc we know how he would react, the only diffrence is that he can hit you with a blast of energy powered by an infnite source to rip through his opponent rather than tossing you about with TK when you piss him off....theres no reason why he wouldnt use an ability, why wouldnt he use regulation? give me a reason why Kain in character would never use regulation when Archimonde is towering above him..magic reeking from every pore...every reason behind Scion Kain is that the guy is logic, crystal clear logic and mostly undeniable fact, he has been stated to have regulation. For example Living tribnual is stated to be omnipotent or all powerful....but you cannot really show omnipotence, yet its still a usable power for LT.

Its regulation, the fact Kain just happens to be in combat doesnt make a diffrence does it, can you explain your logic? if Kain was walking across Nosgoth and some crazed fanatic tossed a spell at him, suddenly just because Kain is in a combat scenario he loses all his abilities hes not used in combat? it doesnt make sense at all....

Kain would not stop on any of them since you brought the rules of this forum to my attension, everything Kain does is in his games and since all canon feats from games for Archimonde and other Warcraft charactes are very few (Archimonde destroying Dalaren) and giving him few varities of powers Kain could probably clear most of this gauntlet with ease and without trouble since most of them canot use a single fact, quote or feat from their novels, RPGs etc etc

for example Kain would just walk up to Mediv and punch through his stomach, end off....add CIS to that and Mediv would prob start jabbering on about prophecy and Kain would just sigh with disgust at a human speaking to him and slice his neck open, drink his blood.

Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
So just like Sephiroth was stated to be the most powerful person in FF7 but has never been actually shown to use his powers, Kain was stated to gain these "infinite" powers, regulation or whatever but has never been shown using any of it?

I suggest from now on we use [B]actual feats that were seen, not implied or suggested, or assumed. There are enough double-standards as it is. [/B]

No because thats logicless, Sephiroth has not shown any reason to be above most of these characters and furthermore, its the very role of the characters, not actually using the power doesnt mean it doesnt excist unlike the huge assumption Sephiroth is above all beings in FF which is logicless. Kains sons have powers they have shown, Kain gains these powers....its crystal clear to me that he doesnt have to actually use them for him to have them, same with regulation, its simply something balance guardians have as part of the LOK universe, it cannot simply be struck out because theyve not done it as part of a feat otherwise most beings in games VS woudnt have any feats at all, since a feat is usually in a cinematic or otherwise, gameplay does not count as feats.

Then kain automatically wins, considering that all Archimonde has shown in fact as a feat is his only cinematic in the games he originates in is when he gets killed OR his destruction of Dalaren...but no thats nonsense, theres too many abilities on either side that have not actually be shown as a feat.

It's not logicless since the creators themselves have been said to have stated that... multiple times.

Yes, Kain's sons... like those 3 dudes that Sephiroth has somehow created?

Anyway, let's use actual feats now. If Kain has never been shown to use regulation or infinite magic, or whatever, then it's not used.

Edit

Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
It's not logicless since the creators themselves have been said to have stated that... multiple times.

Yes, Kain's sons... like those 3 dudes that Sephiroth has somehow created?

Anyway, let's use actual feats now. If Kain has never been shown to use regulation or infinite magic, or whatever, then it's not used.

yes it is, the statement itself is without logic...

no its not like that, Sephiroth created his remnants, who have seperate abilities, yet although Kains sons are similiar in design Kain regains their souls and power that he put into them at the end of Defiance along with Raziels healing.

If you want to use feats go ahead, name me a feat of Archimondes.

Originally posted by Burning thought
yes it is, the statement itself is without logic...

Yes, without logic when it's used against you.

Originally posted by Burning thought If you want to use feats go ahead, name me a feat of Archimondes. [/B]

Not taking any damage, summoning demons, using Finger of Death if you were stupid enough to aggro him, changing his size, destroyed the whole Night Elven base/army by simply raising his hand. This is just what we've seen from the last mission of WC3:RoC.

I mean, you may say that it's merely game mechanics, but Kain doing 90% of his stuff is game mechanics also.

Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
Yes, without logic when it's used against you.

Not taking any damage, summoning demons, using Finger of Death if you were stupid enough to aggro him, changing his size, destroyed the whole Night Elven base/army by simply raising his hand. This is just what we've seen from the last mission of WC3:RoC.

I mean, you may say that it's merely game mechanics, but Kain doing 90% of his stuff is game mechanics also.

not really...how is the statement logical if you belive its logical? and furthermore actual characters attirbutes of what they can do cannot really be hyperbole or logicless, its simply an ability.

canonically hes not hit by anything in the games, he simply gets destroyed by wisps AKA natures power.

I dont remember him doing that, can you show me him destrying the night elf base by raising his hand.

No its not, not at all, a game mechanic is 20,000 damage defeating someone with 1000 health, a game mechanic is having to pick up shiny stars to increase magic levels, a game mechanic is mainly things that can be identified that make the game possible. In Warcraft, 20,000 damage is part of a game mechanic....

Originally posted by Burning thought
I dont remember him doing that, can you show me him destrying the night elf base by raising his hand.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svH5xe_t0-w

It was then specified later that he did it with raising his hand but in this clip it looks like when he is summoning infernals however the effect produced is different. 7:04