Gauntlet: Kain VS. Warcraft

Originally posted by Burning thought
I meant to back up that any druid could do something like a hurricane but thats besides the point, most of these opponetns are not druids anyway

Indeed, lol how can you get through the game without tapping it accidently?

Their just magic, in a neutral universe both magics would be similiar or the same, its just "magic", a force of power, there may be diffrent kinds of magic but its without debate that magic in both worlds is similiar, how it works is irrelvent or how there may be diffrent schools of magic is also, the fact its magic means that by the Nosgoth definition, a Balance guardian can regulate "magic", saying "well its in Nosgoth so it would be diffrent" is obviously a fallacy since any power could be diffrent in any universe which is why both characters fight in a neutral universe have access to their powers as if it was from their universe, the fact Kain can negate magic still comes with him since its an ability that works agaisnt magic in his universe.

spell refelction is diffrent from immunity, the spell is not trying to be absorbed or stopped, simply reflected like a mirror, the immunity happens only if the refelection doesnt work id imagine. lol....a swordsmen..

No but most of the Opponents can summon a storm.

Easily I did, but either way it shows that Kain cannot stay in it forever.

Not true, not the slightest to say that Magic in any givern scenario with two characters will just be magic and then assuming that Kain can manipulate it, is simply wrong. Why? Because both Opponents must have equally access to the magic that they draw, it wouldn't for instance help Kain to draw Magic from the Warcraft Universe like it wouldn't help Archimonde to draw from the Lok, that means that the magic that you are assuming both draw their power from is the same, which it cannot be else we would give one a unfair advantage, Kain would have draw the Magic from the Neutral world like it was magic from his Dimension and Archimonde like it was magic from his. How on earth Kain is supposed to stop Archimonde drawing magic when the type of magic that Archimonde is drawing isn't even within Kain scope of Magical influence is beyond me, for instance had Kain been a Energy Manipulater instead of a Magical Regulator that would have changed the Scenario vastly because all things are in some sharp ore form Energy then you could make the claim, Hell had Kain been from Forgotten Realms I would support you, because the Magic that is shown in Forgotten Realms is imo so alike the one used in Warcraft that they could easily be the same, but you cannot claim that Kain will be capable of manipulating a mystical form of energy in a Neutral universe that have no connection what so ever to Mystical energy that he manipulates. Again Galactus contra the Elders, Power Cosmic vs Power Primordial ergo Galactus holds no power over that type of energy sure they roughly does the same but they have a natural difference that exclude Galactus from stripping the Elders of the power Sure he can absorb it but control the access to it? No way.

But the Shield is trying to change and divert the spell from it's original target thus trying to use it's own magic to influence a spell that couldn't care less about other spells and what influence they are trying to use on it. So yeah he would have something to fear from the Finger of Death.

Originally posted by Utrigita
No but most of the Opponents can summon a storm.

Easily I did, but either way it shows that Kain cannot stay in it forever.

Not true, not the slightest to say that Magic in any givern scenario with two characters will just be magic and then assuming that Kain can manipulate it, is simply wrong. Why? Because both Opponents must have equally access to the magic that they draw, it wouldn't for instance help Kain to draw Magic from the Warcraft Universe like it wouldn't help Archimonde to draw from the Lok, that means that the magic that you are assuming both draw their power from is the same, which it cannot be else we would give one a unfair advantage, Kain would have draw the Magic from the Neutral world like it was magic from his Dimension and Archimonde like it was magic from his. How on earth Kain is supposed to stop Archimonde drawing magic when the type of magic that Archimonde is drawing isn't even within Kain scope of Magical influence is beyond me, for instance had Kain been a Energy Manipulater instead of a Magical Regulator that would have changed the Scenario vastly because all things are in some sharp ore form Energy then you could make the claim, Hell had Kain been from Forgotten Realms I would support you, because the Magic that is shown in Forgotten Realms is imo so alike the one used in Warcraft that they could easily be the same, but you cannot claim that Kain will be capable of manipulating a mystical form of energy in a Neutral universe that have no connection what so ever to Mystical energy that he manipulates. Again Galactus contra the Elders, Power Cosmic vs Power Primordial ergo Galactus holds no power over that type of energy sure they roughly does the same but they have a natural difference that exclude Galactus from stripping the Elders of the power Sure he can absorb it but control the access to it? No way.

But the Shield is trying to change and divert the spell from it's original target thus trying to use it's own magic to influence a spell that couldn't care less about other spells and what influence they are trying to use on it. So yeah he would have something to fear from the Finger of Death.

No it doesnt, it shows Kain chooses not to, and Blood omen 2 shows the weakest Kain can stay in it as long as he wishes, combine the two and you find out Kain can stay in mist form while controlling its form.

ofcourse its just magic, what else is it then? its magic and thats the end of it....what your saying can be used for many things and all of them sound ridiculous, for example I could say that the shield Kain uses is formed of Nosgoth magic and so saying Finger of death can bypass a shield made of Nosgoth magic AKA a magic he is not familiar with nor the warcaft magic is familiar with is foolish. Saying just because the magic comes from nosgoth and the other from warcraft doesnt break the fact its still magic.

What the spell cares about means nothing, its just reflected, so it will indeed hit a target and it will not be hit by any spell immunities, it would just blast Archimonde.

On a second thought, who's to say that Archimonde wouldn't simply overpower Kain's protections or regulations? I mean, is there even a spellcaster on Nosgoth that equals Archimonde? What was that book that said that Sargeras blessed Archimonde and Kil'Jaeden with basically unlimited magic? I mean, even if Kain was to somehow prevent Archimonde from casting spells, he could overpower him with physical strength or tear him to shreds with telekinesis. That is of course if Kain wouldn't be able to shut down Archimonde's magic entirely.

Anyway, maybe we should discuss other combatants in the gauntlet as well?

You cannot overpower an infnite source, kain as the regulator would not have his magic power be smaller than anyones in this gauntlet would he? furthermore Archimonde would have to show a feat that he could overpower a regulator.

perhaps but one at a time is easier, debating all at once may get confusing.

Originally posted by Burning thought
No it doesnt, it shows Kain chooses not to, and Blood omen 2 shows the weakest Kain can stay in it as long as he wishes, combine the two and you find out Kain can stay in mist form while controlling its form.

ofcourse its just magic, what else is it then? its magic and thats the end of it....what your saying can be used for many things and all of them sound ridiculous, for example I could say that the shield Kain uses is formed of Nosgoth magic and so saying Finger of death can bypass a shield made of Nosgoth magic AKA a magic he is not familiar with nor the warcaft magic is familiar with is foolish. Saying just because the magic comes from nosgoth and the other from warcraft doesnt break the fact its still magic.

What the spell cares about means nothing, its just reflected, so it will indeed hit a target and it will not be hit by any spell immunities, it would just blast Archimonde.

If he doesn't get spotted (in BO2) and not for a infinite amount of time in Defiance. And again have he ever controlled his form when begin struck by something resembling the winds of a storm ore Hurrican, he gets to MalFurion before Archimonde Remember.

Of Cause it isn't just magic, Magic is depending on the universe inherently different in nature, I would for starters claim that Malygos would have no way to shut down a Malfurions access to magic simply because Malfurion uses nature magic a energy drawn from the earth and all around him where Malygos has pretty much complete control over the arcane that originates from the Well of Eternity created by the Titans, In the Belgarion Sage Magic is given form as a combination between the Will and the Word not as a source originating from the world ore the universe for instance, in Star Wars I would say that the "Magic" would be the force, In Warhammer the power originates from a World of Chaos, In Witcher the Power Originates through signs, In LOTR it is shown in some scenarios as song, so Magic isn't just magic, let take a quick look at DC, There the Magic that Spectre draws his power from Originates from the Logoz a infinite energy source created by the Presence, another type of magic in DC draws it powers from the Source but the two types of magic is entirely different from each other and cannot the placed as equals to one another, but according to you, the fact alone, that it in some ways is related to as magic, would allow Kain to Regulate the Magic even though the LoK version of Magic has absolutely no crediability against the previous mentioned types of magic. Because Kain in LoK regulates the magic that steams from Nosgoth and the Magic from what I have understood flows through the Balance Guardian, that is what Kain Regulates, last time I checked Archimonde didn't draw his magical power through Kain but rather from the Twisted nether where none regulates anything and in a neutral universe he would gain access to his magic like he always does. You see that is another situation entirely because that is two types of magic being used against each other but instead of just loose speculations we actually have a fairly good idea how both spells work and react to other types of magic because we have situations where such things have happened, not just the thought that because Kain can regulate magic in his world then he can automatically negate every other type of magic in the entire fantasy omniverse.

If a spell tries to use magic on another spell that bypasses immunity what do you think the result would be?

Originally posted by Utrigita
If he doesn't get spotted (in BO2) and not for a infinite amount of time in Defiance. And again have he ever controlled his form when begin struck by something resembling the winds of a storm ore Hurrican, he gets to MalFurion before Archimonde Remember.

Of Cause it isn't just magic, Magic is depending on the universe inherently different in nature, I would for starters claim that Malygos would have no way to shut down a Malfurions access to magic simply because Malfurion uses nature magic a energy drawn from the earth and all around him where Malygos has pretty much complete control over the arcane that originates from the Well of Eternity created by the Titans, In the Belgarion Sage Magic is given form as a combination between the Will and the Word not as a source originating from the world ore the universe for instance, in Star Wars I would say that the "Magic" would be the force, In Warhammer the power originates from a World of Chaos, In Witcher the Power Originates through signs, In LOTR it is shown in some scenarios as song, so Magic isn't just magic, let take a quick look at DC, There the Magic that Spectre draws his power from Originates from the Logoz a infinite energy source created by the Presence, another type of magic in DC draws it powers from the Source but the two types of magic is entirely different from each other and cannot the placed as equals to one another, but according to you, the fact alone, that it in some ways is related to as magic, would allow Kain to Regulate the Magic even though the LoK version of Magic has absolutely no crediability against the previous mentioned types of magic. Because Kain in LoK regulates the magic that steams from Nosgoth and the Magic from what I have understood flows through the Balance Guardian, that is what Kain Regulates, last time I checked Archimonde didn't draw his magical power through Kain but rather from the Twisted nether where none regulates anything and in a neutral universe he would gain access to his magic like he always does. You see that is another situation entirely because that is two types of magic being used against each other but instead of just loose speculations we actually have a fairly good idea how both spells work and react to other types of magic because we have situations where such things have happened, not just the thought that because Kain can regulate magic in his world then he can automatically negate every other type of magic in the entire fantasy omniverse.

If a spell tries to use magic on another spell that bypasses immunity what do you think the result would be?

No, but ime not debating he will keep his form, but I highly doubt Malfurion will be casting hurricanes every 5 minutes either...

Just because they get their magic in diffrent ways doesnt mean its a diffrent magic, magic is magic, just because Norgannon made it or w/e in Warcraft doesnt mean it simply cannot be regulated in a neutral universe. My analogy was exactley the same as yours, your saying Kain cannot regulate Archimodne or Warcraft magic becaue it has a diffrent source (which is irrelvent really since its still magic) well ime saying Archimondes spells will not harm or defeat Kains spells or his shield either because they are also a diffrent source and assuming such from your point of view should be ridiculous and hippocritcle, then again I myself think that in a neutral universe (i.e, default battleground if unstated by thread starter) allows the powers of a being to effect others in the gauntlet/battle exactley the same way beings in his own universe would be effected which is why finger of death will retain its powers against a diffrent source of magic (kains shield) and why its fair Kain also has full power over his regulatory abilities.

Well in this case, refelection, so the spell that can bypass immunities will be reflected. Being able to break through immunities doesnt mean it cannot be effected by any other spells in the process.

Originally posted by Burning thought
You cannot overpower an infnite source

That goes both ways, as all magic wielders in this gauntlet is an infinite source.

Originally posted by Lich King
That goes both ways, as all magic wielders in this gauntlet is an infinite source.

No its not, the magic itself as a form of resource is infnite but the use of it is not infnite otherwise Mediv could use infnite energy with his attacks and wipe out Sargeras and likely most other pantheon memebers by himself, although this is untrue.

What I was saying is that Kain can regulate, Archimonde cannot and would not know what to do if he was regulated. His magic would be like a electric circuit, the electricity would infnitly go round, but then Kains magic breaks teh circuit. Archimonde has not got immunity to regulation from evidence ive seen.

So you are saying Kain can one-shot anyone because he has infinite magic?

no not anyone

Tell me why Kain can overpower Medivh, Archimonde and the others by usage of infinite magic, while they can not do the same to Kain. Reading what you say, it seems to me like it is nothing but hypocritic statements biased to favor one over the other.

Because Kain is a regulator and in a way a governer of magic and neither Mediv or Archimonde are.....its a magical trait, its like me asking "why can Archimonde finger of death kain and Kain cannot finger of death archimonde"

Originally posted by Burning thought
No, but ime not debating he will keep his form, but I highly doubt Malfurion will be casting hurricanes every 5 minutes either...

Just because they get their magic in diffrent ways doesnt mean its a diffrent magic, magic is magic, just because Norgannon made it or w/e in Warcraft doesnt mean it simply cannot be regulated in a neutral universe. My analogy was exactley the same as yours, your saying Kain cannot regulate Archimodne or Warcraft magic becaue it has a diffrent source (which is irrelvent really since its still magic) well ime saying Archimondes spells will not harm or defeat Kains spells or his shield either because they are also a diffrent source and assuming such from [b]your point of view should be ridiculous and hippocritcle, then again I myself think that in a neutral universe (i.e, default battleground if unstated by thread starter) allows the powers of a being to effect others in the gauntlet/battle exactley the same way beings in his own universe would be effected which is why finger of death will retain its powers against a diffrent source of magic (kains shield) and why its fair Kain also has full power over his regulatory abilities.

Well in this case, refelection, so the spell that can bypass immunities will be reflected. Being able to break through immunities doesnt mean it cannot be effected by any other spells in the process. [/B]

But you are using it as a way for Kain to gain into close combat which his enermies and to dodge them, Malfurion for instance as a contrary to Archimonde will not be interested in killing Kain but rather incapacitate him, and imo he will use a Hurrican to do that.

And your analogy isn't making any sense, I have just given numerous evidence which directly shows that Magic isn't simply magic there are far more aspects in it which I have just mention the situation here looks alot like a situation Doctor Strange from Marvel was in, Agamotto locked Strange out Strange could no longer use the magic that Agamotto provides Agamotto was the regulator, However Doctor Strange could still fully draw magic from other Entities, and that is what I see here sure Kain Regulates the Magic that originates from Nosgoth and Flows from him too the Guardians, but he has no power over a outside magical force like for instance the Twisted nether like he would have no power over the magic that both in the Realm would draw from because Archimonde doesn't draw the magic too power his spells through Kain. Norgannon didn't make Arcane magic, Arcane magic originates from the Twisted Nether it wasn't created by the Titans, but it was brought to Azeroth by the Titans. Nothing in that post can be viewed as the any kind of hypocritisme I'm putting a very Large Questionmark infront of a ability that have never been seen ore used and I think not even mentioned in the games, where we on the other hand have The Finger of Death that have been in contact with other kinds of Magic that doesn't originate from the same place as it does (Nature Magic for instance), theirfore we have a idea on how it behaves against other types of magic the same goes with the Shield, that if I recalled correctly withstood some blasts ore something from the Hylden Lord ore something and he sure as hell wasn't drawing his power from Nosgoth because he was restricted from getting there. If we go by what you view as a useable scenario then Kain will be blow to dust by a Finger of Death ore ripped apart by Archimondes Telekinese. We know that Archimonde in a Battle against the Dragons used that first before applying any spell, what does kain utilize first? Not the Regulation of magic that he cannot from my perspective use anyhow.

Well I would say that when a Spell bypasses Spell Immunity ore a Mana Shield it have shown that it cannot be deflected *srug*

Originally posted by Utrigita
But you are using it as a way for Kain to gain into close combat which his enermies and to dodge them, Malfurion for instance as a contrary to Archimonde will not be interested in killing Kain but rather incapacitate him, and imo he will use a Hurrican to do that.

And your analogy isn't making any sense, I have just given numerous evidence which directly shows that Magic isn't simply magic there are far more aspects in it which I have just mention the situation here looks alot like a situation Doctor Strange from Marvel was in, Agamotto locked Strange out Strange could no longer use the magic that Agamotto provides Agamotto was the regulator, However Doctor Strange could still fully draw magic from other Entities, and that is what I see here sure Kain Regulates the Magic that originates from Nosgoth and Flows from him too the Guardians, but he has no power over a outside magical force like for instance the Twisted nether like he would have no power over the magic that both in the Realm would draw from because Archimonde doesn't draw the magic too power his spells through Kain. Norgannon didn't make Arcane magic, Arcane magic originates from the Twisted Nether it wasn't created by the Titans, but it was brought to Azeroth by the Titans. Nothing in that post can be viewed as the any kind of hypocritisme I'm putting a very Large Questionmark infront of a ability that have never been seen ore used and I think not even mentioned in the games, where we on the other hand have The Finger of Death that have been in contact with other kinds of Magic that doesn't originate from the same place as it does (Nature Magic for instance), theirfore we have a idea on how it behaves against other types of magic the same goes with the Shield, that if I recalled correctly withstood some blasts ore something from the Hylden Lord ore something and he sure as hell wasn't drawing his power from Nosgoth because he was restricted from getting there. If we go by what you view as a useable scenario then Kain will be blow to dust by a Finger of Death ore ripped apart by Archimondes Telekinese. We know that Archimonde in a Battle against the Dragons used that first before applying any spell, what does kain utilize first? Not the Regulation of magic that he cannot from my perspective use anyhow.

Well I would say that when a Spell bypasses Spell Immunity ore a Mana Shield it have shown that it cannot be deflected *srug*

A hurricane doesnt last forever nor woudl it stop Kain from teleporting and its a physical force, Kains shield protects from physical force.

Thats very diffrent, Agamotto is a magical godlike entity is he not? Strange takes power from him but Agamotto turns it off. Kain on the other hand, turns other peoples off even if their not taking magic from him, the blance guardian is not the source of magic itself for example, its not like everyone is connected to magic through a balance guardian the way strange was connected to Agamotto.

In a battle sequence Kain would shield most likely and depending on the opponent use several diffrent spells but regulation would be his main use in this debate, being able to cut off spells is pretty important against the likes of Archimonde, mediv etc etc

It simply shows it is not affected by those types of shields, it does not mean it simply cannot be reflected or dispelled before it hits a target.

I don't think Finger of Death can get stopped "mid-air" since it happens pretty much instantaneously. It also pierces immunities as well as reflections.

When did it pierce reflection? altho thing is, its gameplay feat, gameplay mechanics are taken into account when in gameplay something is struck. Its like saying Kain cannot get targeted because hed be considered a "hero" character.

It's weird. In WoW he can target anyone, and it pierces reflections/immunities. I believe it was also stated in the books.

The books are the best source of canon knowledge.

Originally posted by Burning thought
A hurricane doesnt last forever nor woudl it stop Kain from teleporting and its a physical force, Kains shield protects from physical force.

Thats very diffrent, Agamotto is a magical godlike entity is he not? Strange takes power from him but Agamotto turns it off. Kain on the other hand, turns other peoples off even if their not taking magic from him, the blance guardian is not the source of magic itself for example, its not like everyone is connected to magic through a balance guardian the way strange was connected to Agamotto.

In a battle sequence Kain would shield most likely and depending on the opponent use several diffrent spells but regulation would be his main use in this debate, being able to cut off spells is pretty important against the likes of Archimonde, mediv etc etc

It simply shows it is not affected by those types of shields, it does not mean it simply cannot be reflected or dispelled before it hits a target.

No but I can easily Imagine that Malfurion could keep it us as long as he pleases, Sure he can teleport back in but that requires that he gains control over his mist form in the middle of a Hurrican. Sure he can use a shield but that wouldn't really stop him from being lifted into the air would it?

Agamotto have his own seperate realm, and roughly they do the same, Agamotto prevents Strange from gaining access to the power that he commands Kain does the same by not allowing people to draw magic from Nosgoth through him, and now you have hit the nail on the head and what is my major concern with this type of power, What can Kain do if he runs into a person that draws Magical energy without there being placed a middle section the Regulator Imo not in any sharp ore form control the access to it.

Yes in a debate but if we go into how Kain would engage in a combat situation we must if we use CIS (Character Induced Stupidity) also take into account how the Combatent thinks and what is the most likely way for him to respond to a attack ore defend himself, I don't even know if it's on in the versus forum is it?

What artificial said above.

Originally posted by Utrigita
No but I can easily Imagine that Malfurion could keep it us as long as he pleases, Sure he can teleport back in but that requires that he gains control over his mist form in the middle of a Hurrican. Sure he can use a shield but that wouldn't really stop him from being lifted into the air would it?

Agamotto have his own seperate realm, and roughly they do the same, Agamotto prevents Strange from gaining access to the power that he commands Kain does the same by not allowing people to draw magic from Nosgoth through him, and now you have hit the nail on the head and what is my major concern with this type of power, What can Kain do if he runs into a person that draws Magical energy without there being placed a middle section the Regulator Imo not in any sharp ore form control the access to it.

Yes in a debate but if we go into how Kain would engage in a combat situation we must if we use CIS (Character Induced Stupidity) also take into account how the Combatent thinks and what is the most likely way for him to respond to a attack ore defend himself, I don't even know if it's on in the versus forum is it?

What artificial said above.

From whats shown Kains mist never dispurses, its more stuck to his own form and body as if he was still solid, just made out of mist instead of flesh, so I think the mist would be blown around as if it was still in Kains shape and he would simply have to reform, also whats stopping Malfurion from being sucked up? this would be pretty dangerous id say summoing a hurricane if Kain is going into close combat.

Well the shield stops physical harm coming to Kain, so perhaps it would lift up the shield with Kain inside it like one of those blow up balls people have fun in 😛

But nobody draws magic through Kain, he simply has the authority to turn their magic off and regulate it, so its still very very diffrent, wheras Agamotto is actually the source of the magic Strange is trying to take. its like Agamotto has a cookie jar thats by law his own...strange is taking from it and Agamotto doesnt mind, Strange pisses the guy off so Agamotto puts a lid on the jar....well Kain doesnt really have a jar so to speak, he simply has the authority to shut other peoples lids even though their not his own.

The source of the magic is not being disturbed, its just being stopped, its like having traffic coming in from one section of the road, and then the red traffic light goes on and they stop, traffic still comes on, only ofcourse Kain is unlikely to let the light go green again, at least not while Archimonde is a threat.

What CIS? CIS is not usually taken into account, by default I think its often simply agreed characters have knowledge of eachother, their own spells etc etc and so will fight at the best of their abilities. Although under CIS I doubt Kain would hold back at all when facing the likes of someone so imposing as Archimonde, although with CIS enabled, Mediv and malfurion and other seeminly less imposing beings to look at, may gain an advantage.

hm although ive not seen evidence of it piercing reflections and in the end, your using gameplay mechanics to gauge its power in a real battle, didnt you say it could not target heroes? so then perhaps Kain simply cannot be targeted at all....peronally ive not played WC3 for a very long time, maybe ill try out some of these things myself.