Malak and Kreia vs Dooku

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Heavy hitters? Humility isn't your strong suit Nai, nor are you realistic. Really? He accessed it? Everybody with a decent amount of knowledge? So you go from arguing from stupidity to appealing to the majority which doesn't even exist? Nevermind the fact that the majority of sith holocrons can only be accessible by a DLOTS or a sith lord? Secondly, even if I give you the benefit of the doubt and assume Dooku accessed it and not Palpatine who put in Dooku's words, that proves exactly what? I sincerely doubt you know everything about sw canon because if you do, then your inferences are horrible. And if you're a heavy hitter, then this forum is sorely lacking.

Welcome back, horrible excuse for a debater. Let me correct my previous statement: Every dumbass capable of reading "Legacy of the Jedi" would know that Dooku did access the holocron he stole with Lorian Nod. The Telos holocron? Right. How the hell would somebody store the voice record (and holographic image) of another person in a holocron. You fail.

And of course this forum is sorely lacking. It even allows people like you to post here.

You totally owned me? Translation: I have said nothing of substance so instead of attempting to revamp my arguments to make some kind of logical sense, I'm going to end this debate with the idea of denial. You lose again Nai. Dooku gets tooled.

Wow. Translation: "Yes. You owned me. And there is nothing I can do about this. So I will attempt to ridicule you by trying to come up with a witty statement. But then I fail again, because your left testicle is more intelligent then me. Realizing this, I will simply state again that Dooku gets tooled, to emphasize my non-existant argument." Thanks for trying, dumbass.

Are you ****ing serious? I sincerely hope that you've somehow attained a considerable sense of humor (even for a German), and are just trying to entertain me. You're asking me how ripping out how ripping out a language is NOT applicable in a fight? SO basically you've proven that your IQ is ridiculously below a "frozen lobotomized starfish".

Look. The Great One, Darth "D'oh. I can't even read" Sexy, is demonstrating his complete lack of reading comprehension once more. May I point your attention to the events of KotoR and pre-KotoR Lehon? Thanks. What we would encounter their is Revan applying a force technique against the Rakata living on the planet which either enabled him to use their language or them to understand his. No matter what it was, it must have been done during the fights in which Revan demolished them quite nicely. So...yes...he either did rip out their language or force his own into their heads during the ongoing massacre.

Idiot country? This coming from a German who can't spell? Oh right, lets use the crutch that you're not around here so you're not expected to write properly, nor read properly. So since you've embarrassed yourself with irrelevant opinions and overall bitching, you're basically going to stop attempting to debate. Got it. Owned again.

Let me point the attention of the audience to the fact that little Darth Sexy, who is oh-so-smart, has still not managed to outdebate me, who's not even using his primary language here. In fact, he still keeps dodging the points like a mad rabbid on speed and attempts to ridicule me because of spelling mistakes - mind you - where I didn't even make some. Congratulations. You're a retard, Sexy. Okay. Old news.

So basically nothing that's applicable in a fight that the other two can't deal with. Unless you're assuming Malak and Traya plan on standing there dumbfounded while Dooku dishes out force maneuvers ala Harlem Globetrotters.

Right. Let me see: None of the two has demonstrated any force defence. Despite of that, they will somehow be able to block Dooku's force attacks. Especially when Dooku has demonstrated the ability to use two seperate attacks at the same time. Right...

Then of course, they will also be able to deal with a doppelgänger of Dooku. You know that this is a tangible illusion that does act on his own, right? So effectively, Dooku could turn this fight into a 2on2.

Hey look, something Dooku doesn't know! And it's applicable in a fight! Score one for malak.

Hey, Kreia knows something Dooku doesn't that's applicable in a fight. Score another for the duo. I wouldn't argue with you much if it was 1 on 1 but you're hilarious in trying to debate a losing argument for 1 on 2.

The right statement would be: "...that Dooku hasn't used", because by your own ridiculous logic, he probably has access to any bit of knowledge that Darth Sidious had. Which would, damn it, include the force drain technique. Oh wait. You dodged this exact point before, correct? I wonder why. Lmao.

Except you've yet to prove as such, and in fact you've offered contradictory evidence. Way to go dipshit.

Now we are playing the "I'm dumb but I'll simply state you are to get away with it" game. Nice. May I point out, Sexy, that your original point was that Kreia and Malak have more techniques than Dooku? Sorry. The evidence states the exact opposite. Now we are playing "things applicable in the fight". I'm afraid: Since none of the two beings has used the force drain in a direct action against an opponent, this is excluded, which gives Dooku more techniques useable in direct action. You fail again.

Says the comics big boy, unless you have alternative proof. Don't act like Kun's psychologist just because your argument is shot to shit. Kun left without anything. But it's cute how you try to use another method for your debate. Now it's KUNS followers who could have possibly taken something from Korriban, not Kun. Make up your mind, you putz.

Are you nuts?
The comics show us how Kun is healed. Next time we see Kun on Yavin 4. So I wonder where the comic proofs that he get right away from Korriban after he was healed. I know, you don't own a single SW source - so probably yo don't want to get into debates about them with people who own them. That would be a smart move.

Effectively you want to tell us that:

a) The Ancient Sith stored tons of knowledge on a freaking graveworld.
b) The Jedi who apparently did run rampant on the surface of that very planet didn't see any reason from either destroying or plundering said knowledge, which was their usual way of dealing with the remains of Sith philosophy.
c) Kun didn't consider said knowledge worth plundering it, despite of the fact that it's so precious.
d) His followers also didn't find it worth plundering, so they left it right their, despite of sitting around in an Academy right next to it for more than 40 years.

And then, of course, that knowledge isn't taken by Revan [who personally walked around to unlock the tombs of the more powerful Sith Lords during the events shown in KotoR] - no - it all went into the hands of Malak. Makes indeed much sense, Sexy. I especially loved the sentence where you stated that Revan can't loot the entire knowledge from a graveworld - when you suppose he did exactly that with a planet filled with Sith Holocrons. Priceless. 🙄

Show me where he calls it empty. And KOTOR 1, and various other sources would disagree with your piss poor assessment.

Yay. Shall we check all the knowledge sources that KotoR 1 shows us for Korriban? A computer used for knowledge training. Check. Horde's holocron. Check. Star Map. Check. Some tome with knowledge. Check. Notice how all of that was hidden in tombs previously not accessed by Revan (or anybody else for that matter). That somehow proves that there was a shitload of knowledge stored on this GRAVEWORLD? Or that Malak did have access to that supposed wealth of knowledge? I wonder how that works.

Again you've proven that you're worse than Darth "Can't debate for shit" sexy. Embarrassing yourself like that doesn't help you. It's my job not yours? Really? Because you also made the assertion that Dooku>Malak AND Traya? You know Nai sometimes I think you're playing dumb and sometimes I think you're really an idiot. How many different tactics do you have to use in 1 debate? You ARE using a double standard. If I can't substantiate what Malak and Traya learned from Korriban and Malachor, then you can't substantiate what Dooku learned from the holocrons or Sidious.

Would you please attempt to use the few functioning cells that survived the action of you pulling your head out of your ass and start reading? I have listed all force techniques that those people KNOW according to on screen display of them and you replied to it. This was "debate according to Sexy". Result. Dooku > the duo. If you want to take the "what they might have accessed" path, the result would be scraps from Malachor V + some dubious knowledge from Korriban VS everything that Darth Sidious had. The result would be Dooku > them. If you want to take the "techniques used in combat" road, the result is still DOOKU > THEM. Hell. When exactly do you want to come up with anything that leads to the suggestion that they are superior in comparison to Dooku?

And yes. That would be your job. And it's a task that can't be completed, because every damn bit of SW canon points into the opposite direction, unless you want to pull a one-sided assess to the topic out of your ass and compare "what Dooku used" to "what Malak and Kreia could possible have known". Does that make sense? No. But it's the only way for you to come out of this on top. But...well. It doesn't work. You fail.

Nai's last resort to a dying argument. Call himself king shit and accuse the other party of trolling. This would make sense if you weren't getting curmbstomped with your retarded posts and various failing tactics.

Excuse me? All we have seen so far from you is one pity ad hominem following the other. But you won't be able to drive the attention away from the fact that you're doing nothing here but dodging my points and trying to insult me, which simply doesn't work, because I don't care about the personal opinion of a person, that just happens to be alive because euthanasia is against the law in our Western Civilization. Lucky you.

I never claimed every centimeter was full of knowledge. I love how you take a post, and add your own extreme meaning to it, and pass it off as something I said. Do they teach reading comprehension in Germany? It was an ancient storehouse full of various sith artifacts and holocrons.

Shall I quote you again?
"Except it was said that Revan found underground cities of sith artifacts and holocrons."
Huh?

If I toss a "bucket of shit" at you, would you expect being hit by a bucket filled with shit, or just a bucket that mainly contains air and a few atoms of shit? I wonder. Because apparently, you must suggest the latter when "cities of Sith artifacts and holocrons" (source of that quote still missing, as I predicted - lol) are not filled with artifacts and holocrons.

Uh yea numbnuts. The whole attack was based around wounds in the force. Nihilus would survive such an attack as would any wound in the force, since KOTOR II suggests such.

Wow. You totally IGNORED the point. Sion is not a wound in the force. Kreia is not a wound in the force. Both survived the attack. Therefore your "you have to be a wound in the force to do so" craptastic argument doesn't work.

ROFL. I love how you translate it to try and fit your meaning. There's absolutely no evidence that Dooku would defend against it. Stop embarrassing yourself.

Once more: It attacks the connection between the living thing and the force. Qey'Tek masks that very connection. Therefore, their would be nothing to attack here. That aside, the technique has still never been used during combat, so it won't be useable in this duel anyway, right? Again Sexy gets defeated by his own standards. Lovely.

Good comback. Now prove any of dooku's techniques could be used in actual combat.

Look how Sexy managed to dodge the point again. So as a matter of fact, Sexy admits that neither Malak nor Kreia can use the force drain in combat, limiting them to force choke (Malak) and force lightning (Malak) + oh damn - levitating some lightsabers - for Kreia. Good god, people. Dooku will be totally overwhelmed with that stuff...

I've destroyed your pitiful attempts at arguing. I win.

You're not only failing to come up with own points, your also totally failing to address any of mine. You're simply dodging them. You lose (like always. Current count Nai VS Sexy = 3.5 billion to zero).

I've already accused you of using double standards. Using the "I know you are but what am I" logic makes you look dumber than you already are.

Wow. Another one of those grammatical constructions that not even god would be able to understand. So you admit you use double-standards but that's cool, as long as you accused me (notice: not provided proof for it) that I do that, too. Nice tro...erm..."debating" their, you shithead.

Seeing as how i've destroyed your argument and you began the namecalling, I'd say you're making a fool out of yourself yet again.

Seeing as how you've dodged the argument entirely, made shit up, used double-standards and, despite of that, still not managed to come up with anything that could even be remotely considered an "argument", I have to state that you simply suck. Therefore, you will now be able to experience the fun of talking to my ignore function, because I don't have enough time to waste it talking to lifeforms like yourself.

And with "lifeforms like yourself" I mean slime-licking worms, who can do nothing but skim off the drool of the other "kick-ass debators". People that have archieved nothing here but an unusual symbiosis of their hands with their pants, and the dried meat rotting inside of them. People that are, in general, just slimy, sleazy laughing stocks. And now you can go and talk to the hand, since the face doesn't listen any longer, Darth TDTD.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Welcome back, horrible excuse for a debater. Let me correct my previous statement: Every dumbass capable of reading "Legacy of the Jedi" would know that Dooku did access the holocron he stole with Lorian Nod. The Telos holocron? Right. How the hell would somebody store the voice record (and holographic image) of another person in a holocron. You fail.

Now we are playing the "I'm dumb but I'll simply state you are to get away with it" game. Nice. May I point out, Sexy, that your original point was that Kreia and Malak have [b]more techniques than Dooku? Sorry. The evidence states the exact opposite. Now we are playing "things applicable in the fight". I'm afraid: Since none of the two beings has used the force drain in a direct action against an opponent, this is excluded, which gives Dooku more techniques useable in direct action. You fail again.

Are you nuts?
The comics show us how Kun is healed. Next time we see Kun on Yavin 4. So I wonder where the comic proofs that he get right away from Korriban after he was healed. I know, you don't own a single SW source - so probably yo don't want to get into debates about them with people who own them. That would be a smart move.

a) The Ancient Sith stored tons of knowledge on a freaking graveworld.
b) The Jedi who apparently did run rampant on the surface of that very planet didn't see any reason from either destroying or plundering said knowledge, which was their usual way of dealing with the remains of Sith philosophy.
c) Kun didn't consider said knowledge worth plundering it, despite of the fact that it's so precious.
d) His followers also didn't find it worth plundering, so they left it right their, despite of sitting around in an Academy right next to it for more than 40 years.

And then, of course, that knowledge isn't taken by Revan [who personally walked around to unlock the tombs of the more powerful Sith Lords during the events shown in KotoR] - no - it all went into the hands of Malak. Makes indeed much sense, Sexy. I especially loved the sentence where you stated that Revan can't loot the entire knowledge from a graveworld - when you suppose he did exactly that with a planet filled with Sith Holocrons. Priceless. 🙄

Yay. Shall we check all the knowledge sources that KotoR 1 shows us for Korriban? A computer used for knowledge training. Check. Horde's holocron. Check. Star Map. Check. Some tome with knowledge. Check. Notice how all of that was hidden in tombs previously not accessed by Revan (or anybody else for that matter). That somehow proves that there was a shitload of knowledge stored on this GRAVEWORLD? Or that Malak did have access to that supposed wealth of knowledge? I wonder how that works.

Would you please attempt to use the few functioning cells that survived the action of you pulling your head out of your ass and start reading? I have listed all force techniques that those people KNOW according to on screen display of them and you replied to it. This was "debate according to Sexy". Result. Dooku > the duo. If you want to take the "what they might have accessed" path, the result would be scraps from Malachor V + some dubious knowledge from Korriban VS everything that Darth Sidious had. The result would be Dooku > them. If you want to take the "techniques used in combat" road, the result is still DOOKU > THEM. Hell. When exactly do you want to come up with anything that leads to the suggestion that they are superior in comparison to Dooku?

And yes. That would be your job. And it's a task that can't be completed, because every damn bit of SW canon points into the opposite direction, unless you want to pull a one-sided assess to the topic out of your ass and compare "what Dooku used" to "what Malak and Kreia could possible have known". Does that make sense? No. But it's the only way for you to come out of this on top. But...well. It doesn't work. You fail. [/B]

Originally posted by Borbarad
Excuse me? All we have seen so far from you is one pity ad hominem following the other. But you won't be able to drive the attention away from the fact that you're doing nothing here but dodging my points and trying to insult me, which simply doesn't work, because I don't care about the personal opinion of a person, that just happens to be alive because euthanasia is against the law in our Western Civilization. Lucky you.

And with "lifeforms like yourself" I mean slime-licking worms, who can do nothing but skim off the drool of the other "kick-ass debators". People that have archieved nothing here but an unusual symbiosis of their hands with their pants, and the dried meat rotting inside of them. People that are, in general, just slimy, sleazy laughing stocks. And now you can go and talk to the hand, since the face doesn't listen any longer, Darth TDTD.

Translation: I am a tool that has been owned by DS. Since I have no dignity left, I'm going to ramble on incoherently like an angry little schoolgirl.

Nai, i agree with you that Dooku takes this, and would most likely survive Kreia's force drain, due to his greater power in the force. But, i don't think Qey'Tek is a defense against force drain. Qey'Tek just masks the force, but the force is still there, just not noticed.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Nai, i agree with you that Dooku takes this, and would most likely survive Kreia's force drain, due to his greater power in the force. But, i don't think Qey'Tek is a defense against force drain. Qey'Tek just masks the force, but the force is still there, just not noticed.

How much greater is Dooku than Kreia in terms of force power? What does it take out of a person to resist such an attack? Especially from someone who may be close in power level to them? When it was executed Kreia she was not strip but she was left defenseless. If executed on Dooku and he is able to resist he has to do so quickly enough that Malak does not kill him while he is distracted. Is there a record of someone being able to do so? We also have the fact that we have no idea if Dooku is familiar with such an attack and can block it.

The only way I see Dooku wining is if he able to engage them in a saber battle as quickly as Sidious did the Jedi council members that went to arrest him. I do not see Dooku being able to compete in a force battle.

Originally posted by Kotor3
How much greater is Dooku than Kreia in terms of force power?

What? You know that Kreia's supposed "greatness" in terms of force abilities comes from the fact that she owned people with a force technique that said people didn't have a defence against, right? She was tooled by an average Jedi who's only specialty was to resist said attack. So. Kreia's skill - that technique aside - doesn't seems to be very special.

What does it take out of a person to resist such an attack? Especially from someone who may be close in power level to them? When it was executed Kreia she was not strip but she was left defenseless. If executed on Dooku and he is able to resist he has to do so quickly enough that Malak does not kill him while he is distracted. Is there a record of someone being able to do so? We also have the fact that we have no idea if Dooku is familiar with such an attack and can block it.

Urm. As mentioned before. You suppose that Dooku will stand there and let himself be attacked from two different positions without doing anything? Dooku has demonstrated the ability to cope with enemy force attacks - unlike Kreia and Malak. He also has demonstrated the ability to simply kick the living shit out of some of the best force users / duellists of his own era - with apparent ease.

So. Let's for the fun assume that Dooku attacks his opponents with force lightning and they attempt to use something against him. What would happen? Do they all die? Does the duo die and Dooku survives (lack of force defense on their side)? I don't know. But simply assuming that Kreia will come up with "da instakill" when she never performed the action in actual combat is a little bit off, don't you think so?

The only way I see Dooku wining is if he able to engage them in a saber battle as quickly as Sidious did the Jedi council members that went to arrest him. I do not see Dooku being able to compete in a force battle.

There aren't seperate stages of a confrontation between force users. There will be neither a pure "force battle" nor a pure "saber battle". Dooku could still simply charge one of them and melee attack while using a force attack as back-up. The result would be a knocked out / defeated opponent. Plain and simple. He could also just start the fight with force lightning on both of them simultaneously. Like to see what would happen then.

Come in and go: "Oh well. They are two and he's alone. He can't do that" doesn't work. That would still assume that Dooku simply stands there and waits until both opponents attack him simultaneously. You consider that a likely situation, considering Dooku is known for taking it up with multiple force users and come out on top?

Originally posted by Kotor3
How much greater is Dooku than Kreia in terms of force power? What does it take out of a person to resist such an attack? Especially from someone who may be close in power level to them? When it was executed Kreia she was not strip but she was left defenseless. If executed on Dooku and he is able to resist he has to do so quickly enough that Malak does not kill him while he is distracted. Is there a record of someone being able to do so? We also have the fact that we have no idea if Dooku is familiar with such an attack and can block it.

The only way I see Dooku wining is if he able to engage them in a saber battle as quickly as Sidious did the Jedi council members that went to arrest him. I do not see Dooku being able to compete in a force battle.

See that is why i said the duo would most likely win.

Kreia has never used the drain on a force user on Dooku's level. Dooku was a master of TK, and would probably use it on her before she can use the drain. I am pretty sure Dooku is aware of the drain since he had access to restricted knowledge from the Jedi Temple.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Nai, i agree with you that Dooku takes this, and would most likely survive Kreia's force drain, due to his greater power in the force. But, i don't think Qey'Tek is a defense against force drain. Qey'Tek just masks the force, but the force is still there, just not noticed.

Kreia has never used the drain on a force user on Dooku's level. Dooku was a master of TK, and would probably use it on her before she can use the drain. I am pretty sure Dooku is aware of the drain since he had access to restricted knowledge from the Jedi Temple.

That said, I would probably put my money on Dooku in a fight between the two. While his ability to defend against the severing technique is dubious at best, it is likely that he's more than powerful enough to hold his own against the rest of her arsenal; telekinesis is his specialty, and he is one of four individuals in the mythos to deflect or contain Sith lightning with his bare hands. Of the others, one was arguably the most powerful Force-user to date, another had become "one with the Force," and the third was... badass.

If Dooku can get around Traya's signature move and work his way past her Force-defenses, he'll slaughter her with his lightsaber. I don't know how Darth Sion would fit into this, though.

Originally posted by Borbarad
What? You know that Kreia's supposed "greatness" in terms of force abilities comes from the fact that she owned people with a force technique that said people didn't have a defence against, right? She was tooled by an average Jedi who's only specialty was to resist said attack. So. Kreia's skill - that technique aside - doesn't seems to be very special.

As for an average Jedi, why do you say so? Anakin was not a Jedi Master in ROTS but the only two people who could take him on the council (besides Obi Wan when he doesn’t have his head straight) are Yoda and Mace. I wouldn’t call Anakin average and what type of force powers did he really display by ROTS?

Originally posted by Borbarad
Urm. As mentioned before. You suppose that Dooku will stand there and let himself be attacked from two different positions without doing anything? Dooku has demonstrated the ability to cope with enemy force attacks - unlike Kreia and Malak. He also has demonstrated the ability to simply kick the living shit out of some of the best force users / duellists of his own era - with apparent ease.

Obviously I do not feel he would just stand there since I gave a scenario of attack for Dooku. However knowing his character which is a proud arrogant one he would not give it his all immediately, unlike Kreia who does not waste time.

Originally posted by Borbarad
So. Let's for the fun assume that Dooku attacks his opponents with force lightning and they attempt to use something against him. What would happen? Do they all die? Does the duo die and Dooku survives (lack of force defense on their side)? I don't know. But simply assuming that Kreia will come up with "da instakill" when she never performed the action in actual combat is a little bit off, don't you think so?

Force lightning is not a good example since it can be blocked by a lightsaber which I am sure was not unknown at that time. Anyway if Dooku does use force lightning and they both use force lightning at the same time you are telling me Dooku wins? Or you don’t know what happens. You should know the answer to that. You seem to be assuming that Dooku power is greater than both or their powers combine base on what?

Originally posted by Borbarad
There aren't seperate stages of a confrontation between force users. There will be neither a pure "force battle" nor a pure "saber battle". Dooku could still simply charge one of them and melee attack while using a force attack as back-up. The result would be a knocked out / defeated opponent. Plain and simple. He could also just start the fight with force lightning on both of them simultaneously. Like to see what would happen then.

Come in and go: "Oh well. They are two and he's alone. He can't do that" doesn't work. That would still assume that Dooku simply stands there and waits until both opponents attack him simultaneously. You consider that a likely situation, considering Dooku is known for taking it up with multiple force users and come out on top?

I will need to be refreshed on this one. Please tell me of a duo that fought Dooku that were very knowledgeable in the force department particularly darkside techniques.

Something to remember Dooku was a master Jedi before becoming a Sith and the only Jedi who were a match for him was Yoda and Mace. So why it is surprising that Dooku would wipe the floor with any Jedi beside Yoda and Mace since he is well taught in Jedi techniques? Malak and Kreia are darkside users not light. How knowledgeable is Dooku in defending against darkside techniques?

Originally posted by Publius II
This is definitely true. Note that Traya herself killed an entire squad of masked, invisible Sith assassins with the severing technique; if she can sense someone through the Force, she can almost certainly try to hit them with it.

Likewise, Dooku has never gone up against a dark-side practitioner on her level in combat. He has thoroughly decimated about three-quarters of the major characters in the Republic line, as well as several of his own minions, but none of them compare to Traya in mastery of the Force. She herself killed a trio of battle-ready High Council Jedi Masters with a wave of her hand, after casually flooring one of them with a Force-push twice in a row.

That said, I would probably put my money on Dooku in a fight between the two. While his ability to defend against the severing technique is dubious at best, it is likely that he's more than powerful enough to hold his own against the rest of her arsenal; telekinesis is his specialty, and he is one of four individuals in the mythos to deflect or contain Sith lightning with his bare hands. Of the others, one was arguably the most powerful Force-user to date, another had become "one with the Force," and the third was... badass.

If Dooku can get around Traya's signature move and work his way past her Force-defenses, he'll slaughter her with his lightsaber. I don't know how Darth Sion would fit into this, though.

Originally posted by Publius II
This is definitely true. Note that Traya herself killed an entire squad of masked, invisible Sith assassins with the severing technique; if she can sense someone through the Force, she can almost certainly try to hit them with it.

Actually, you're mentioning the two main points here yourself.

a)
That anything noticeable Traya has done was accomplished via a technique that there was no defense against in her own time. If I tell you that I killed an entire SWAT team (equivalent: killing the Jedi Masters / Sith Assassins), that sounds impressive. If you find out that the SWAT team was tied up and I merely used them as targets [equivalent: they weren't able to come up with any defense], that certainly makes the former feat appear less impressive - in fact utterly worthless, correct?

b)
The other keyword: "If she can sense somebody through the force". Yes, that would be helpful and it's exactly what Qey'Tek would prevent. So the first question would be if Kreia can successfully use the technique against Dooku. The next question would be, if she can even use it instantly. In all situations the technique was applied, the user had several minutes of preperation time. In fact: If Kreia could do that at will, 90 % of KotoR II doesn't make any sense. She should just run around and WTFforcerape anybody in her way. And the last thing would be: Even if she would be able to use the technique in a fight, you really want to assume that Dooku will just stand there and drink a Martini while Kreia attacks him with the force?

Likewise, Dooku has never gone up against a dark-side practitioner on her level in combat.

Well. What is "her level" in terms of combat if we just exclude the drain thingy. Oh yes: Without it, she has her ass handed to her by the likes of Sion or the Exile. And you really think she can go 1vs1 against Dooku and live to tell the tale?

He has thoroughly decimated about three-quarters of the major characters in the Republic line, as well as several of his own minions, but none of them compare to Traya in mastery of the Force. She herself killed a trio of battle-ready High Council Jedi Masters with a wave of her hand, after casually flooring one of them with a Force-push twice in a row.

Urm? We have seen Dooku force-raping several Dark Jedi, two Jedi Masters, the Chosen One and one Jedi Council Member. The action that Traya pulled of against the Masters just work because they couldn't put up any defense against the technique. Dooku destroyed individuals quite capable of defending themselves with the force. It didn't help them too much, did it?

That said, I would probably put my money on Dooku in a fight between the two. While his ability to defend against the severing technique is dubious at best, it is likely that he's more than powerful enough to hold his own against the rest of her arsenal; telekinesis is his specialty, and he is one of four individuals in the mythos to deflect or contain Sith lightning with his bare hands. Of the others, one was arguably the most powerful Force-user to date, another had become "one with the Force," and the third was... badass.

If Dooku can get around Traya's signature move and work his way past her Force-defenses, he'll slaughter her with his lightsaber. I don't know how Darth Sion would fit into this, though.

Fine with me.
It's Malak and not Sion by the way. But I wonder. What force defenses are you talking about? You can look into any source present about the KotoR time. Once a technique is fired, it hits. Those people apparently don't care or don't have any actual "force defense" in the sense of "force bubbles to protect them" like the later generations. Apparently, they just survive force attacks out of sheer luck (e.g. Kun resisting the Wall of Light) or because being head and shoulders above their respective opponents.

Otherwise it doesn't make much sense to enable Malak to actually put Revan into a force stun. Or that force attacks actually always hit. Now you can ask yourself what Traya, defeated by an average Jedi, and Malak - who couldn't even take down Revan when powered up by the Star Forge - would be able to put into a battle against Dooku. Theire uber cool force abilities - or their mega lightsaber skills? This against an opponent who, I may point it out once more, did smoke several Jedi duos.

Originally posted by Kotor3
That is the point Nai. Can you prove that there is a defense to the technique? As far as I know not that many people knew of the technique at all. If you remember the Jedi Masters were using a Jedi form of the technique on the exile. So they were not ignorant of the technique. Which means one of the two or both, Kreia is either quite powerful or the Jedi knew how to use the technique as Kreia did but could not defend against it as Kreia could not against her pupil when he used the attack on her.

They were not using a light side variation of the technique. The force sever they used against the Exile is a technique that "traps" a force user inside his own self, not seperating the living being from the force.

The thing Kreia used literally rips apart any connection between the living thing and the force and THEN drains whatever kind of mystical energy released by that process. Two entirely different things here.

And please: You think that the Jedi simply didn't care about a technique as potent as that in the hand of her enemies. Especially considering we're talking about a Jedi order here that was rebuilt by people witnissing the technique in action first hand? Then, on top of that, you also assume that the Sith - at least from Bane's time on (he had Revan's holocron) wouldn't use such a devastating attack in combat if they could do the job? I neither saw Bane, nor Zannah nor Sidious using such a technique in combat.

As for an average Jedi, why do you say so? Anakin was not a Jedi Master in ROTS but the only two people who could take him on the council (besides Obi Wan when he doesn’t have his head straight) are Yoda and Mace. I wouldn’t call Anakin average and what type of force powers did he really display by ROTS?

I called the Exile an "average Jedi" because this is the judgement that Vrook give about her. Anakin? Oh. He is just the Chosen One, the most powerful force user ever, and happened to need his entire potential, unleashed by using the Dark side, in order to defeat Dooku. Who just force raped him twice before. Dooku has been mentioned directly as on of the most powerful being in history, an even greater Sith and - sorry - had Dooku confronted the "regular" Anakin not unlocking his complete potential against him, the young Skywalker would have died a miserable death. Simply watch Dooku fighting him on Geonosis, Tatooine and in the first part of the RotS duel. There isn't even a contest.

Obviously I do not feel he would just stand there since I gave a scenario of attack for Dooku. However knowing his character which is a proud arrogant one he would not give it his all immediately, unlike Kreia who does not waste time.

What? Kreia doesn't waste time? She sad in front of the academy on Dantooine and waited for minutes until the Exile was about to get her force connection stripped. Kreia acted in the last moment. Drama, baby. And on Malachor V - basically the same. She walks into a bunch of Sith Assassins before killing them. The end fight? Just the same. First action with Sion on Telos - the same.

She does hesitate far more than Dooku does, and I didn't know that character traits have impacts on VS-fights now.

Force lightning is not a good example since it can be blocked by a lightsaber which I am sure was not unknown at that time.

Kreia doesn't have a lightsaber and just putting the lightsaber in the way also doesn't work. Even if you manage to do the job, you could still end up with the blade being pushed into your face - especialy when up against somebody like Dooku who force-multitasks on a regular basis (e.g. = lightning comes with a force push - ouch).

Anyway if Dooku does use force lightning and they both use force lightning at the same time you are telling me Dooku wins? Or you don’t know what happens. You should know the answer to that. You seem to be assuming that Dooku power is greater than both or their powers combine base on what?

Once more. Dooku is capable of deflecting lightning with his bare hands. Neither Malak nor Kreia has demonstrated such ability at all. Dooku is capable to perform multiple force manouvers simultaneously. So who is going to be the last man standing - most likely - if they all fire force lightning at eachother?

I will need to be refreshed on this one. Please tell me of a duo that fought Dooku that were very knowledgeable in the force department particularly darkside techniques.

Urm. Tell me how Malak and Traya a "very knowledgeable" in the force department particularly darkside techniques. None of them uses more than the basic techniques in actual combat. And since when are fights in the SW universe decided by "knowledge"?

Something to remember Dooku was a master Jedi before becoming a Sith and the only Jedi who were a match for him was Yoda and Mace. So why it is surprising that Dooku would wipe the floor with any Jedi beside Yoda and Mace since he is well taught in Jedi techniques? Malak and Kreia are darkside users not light. How knowledgeable is Dooku in defending against darkside techniques?

You notice that Dooku also wiped the floor with any Darksider he encountered with the exception of Sidious himself, right? And WTF? Dooku, as you have mentioned, was a Jedi Master. Note: He belonged to a group of beings that focused on defensive uses for the force. He had access to the Great Holocron which has enough knowledge in it that it has been said not even Yoda could have mastered all of it over his entire lifespan. That's the same Dooku that main interested was the art of duelling (so he would most likely attempt to learn anything that could be an advantage for him on that field) and the same Dooku who is one of three beings (with the other two being the most powerful Dark Sider / Light Sider in the saga up to that point) to deflect force lightning with his bare hands.

Originally posted by Borbarad
And please: You think that the Jedi simply didn't care about a technique as potent as that in the hand of her enemies. Especially considering we're talking about a Jedi order here that was rebuilt by people witnissing the technique in action first hand? Then, on top of that, you also assume that the Sith - at least from Bane's time on (he had Revan's holocron) wouldn't use such a devastating attack in combat if they could do the job? I neither saw Bane, nor Zannah nor Sidious using such a technique in combat.

I called the Exile an "average Jedi" because this is the judgement that Vrook give about her. Anakin? Oh. He is just the Chosen One, the most powerful force user ever, and happened to need his entire potential, unleashed by using the Dark side, in order to defeat Dooku. Who just force raped him twice before. Dooku has been mentioned directly as on of the most powerful being in history, an even greater Sith and - sorry - had Dooku confronted the "regular" Anakin not unlocking his complete potential against him, the young Skywalker would have died a miserable death. Simply watch Dooku fighting him on Geonosis, Tatooine and in the first part of the RotS duel. There isn't even a contest.

What? Kreia doesn't waste time? She sad in front of the academy on Dantooine and waited for minutes until the Exile was about to get her force connection stripped. Kreia acted in the last moment. Drama, baby. And on Malachor V - basically the same. She walks into a bunch of Sith Assassins before killing them. The end fight? Just the same. First action with Sion on Telos - the same.

She does hesitate far more than Dooku does, and I didn't know that character traits have impacts on VS-fights now.

Kreia doesn't have a lightsaber and just putting the lightsaber in the way also doesn't work. Even if you manage to do the job, you could still end up with the blade being pushed into your face - especialy when up against somebody like Dooku who force-multitasks on a regular basis (e.g. = lightning comes with a force push - ouch).

Once more. Dooku is capable of deflecting lightning with his bare hands. Neither Malak nor Kreia has demonstrated such ability at all. Dooku is capable to perform multiple force manouvers simultaneously. So who is going to be the last man standing - most likely - if they all fire force lightning at eachother?

Urm. Tell me how Malak and Traya a "very knowledgeable" in the force department particularly darkside techniques. None of them uses more than the basic techniques in actual combat. And since when are fights in the SW universe decided by "knowledge"?

You notice that Dooku also wiped the floor with any Darksider he encountered with the exception of Sidious himself, right? And WTF? Dooku, as you have mentioned, was a Jedi Master. Note: He belonged to a group of beings that focused on defensive uses for the force. He had access to the Great Holocron which has enough knowledge in it that it has been said not even Yoda could have mastered all of it over his entire lifespan. That's the same Dooku that main interested was the art of duelling (so he would most likely attempt to learn anything that could be an advantage for him on that field) and the same Dooku who is one of three beings (with the other two being the most powerful Dark Sider / Light Sider in the saga up to that point) to deflect force lightning with his bare hands. [/B]

Terrible argument. Any darksider? There are only 2 sith, and a bunch of pretenders. Not exactly comparable to Malak's time when there were thousands of sith. You're trying so desperately to make an argument that's due to fail, that you're including ridiculous premises, absurd opinions, and just flat out terrible logic.

Originally posted by Borbarad
They were not using a light side variation of the technique. The force sever they used against the Exile is a technique that "traps" a force user inside his own self, not seperating the living being from the force.

The thing Kreia used literally rips apart any connection between the living thing and the force and THEN drains whatever kind of mystical energy released by that process. Two entirely different things here.

Originally posted by Borbarad
And please: You think that the Jedi simply didn't care about a technique as potent as that in the hand of her enemies. Especially considering we're talking about a Jedi order here that was rebuilt by people witnissing the technique in action first hand? Then, on top of that, you also assume that the Sith - at least from Bane's time on (he had Revan's holocron) wouldn't use such a devastating attack in combat if they could do the job? I neither saw Bane, nor Zannah nor Sidious using such a technique in combat.

For the record seeing and experiencing does not mean you know how to replicate.

Originally posted by Borbarad
I called the Exile an "average Jedi" because this is the judgement that Vrook give about her. Anakin? Oh. He is just the Chosen One, the most powerful force user ever, and happened to need his entire potential, unleashed by using the Dark side, in order to defeat Dooku. Who just force raped him twice before. Dooku has been mentioned directly as on of the most powerful being in history, an even greater Sith and - sorry - had Dooku confronted the "regular" Anakin not unlocking his complete potential against him, the young Skywalker would have died a miserable death. Simply watch Dooku fighting him on Geonosis, Tatooine and in the first part of the RotS duel. There isn't even a contest.

Originally posted by Borbarad
What? Kreia doesn't waste time? She sad in front of the academy on Dantooine and waited for minutes until the Exile was about to get her force connection stripped. Kreia acted in the last moment. Drama, baby. And on Malachor V - basically the same. She walks into a bunch of Sith Assassins before killing them. The end fight? Just the same. First action with Sion on Telos - the same.

She does hesitate far more than Dooku does, and I didn't know that character traits have impacts on VS-fights now.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Kreia doesn't have a lightsaber and just putting the lightsaber in the way also doesn't work. Even if you manage to do the job, you could still end up with the blade being pushed into your face - especialy when up against somebody like Dooku who force-multitasks on a regular basis (e.g. = lightning comes with a force push - ouch).

Originally posted by Borbarad
Actually, you're mentioning the two main points here yourself.

a)
That anything noticeable Traya has done was accomplished via a technique that there was no defense against in her own time. If I tell you that I killed an entire SWAT team (equivalent: killing the Jedi Masters / Sith Assassins), that sounds impressive. If you find out that the SWAT team was tied up and I merely used them as targets [equivalent: they weren't able to come up with any defense], that certainly makes the former feat appear less impressive - in fact utterly worthless, correct?

b)
The other keyword: "If she can sense somebody through the force". Yes, that would be helpful and it's exactly what Qey'Tek would prevent. So the first question would be if Kreia can successfully use the technique against Dooku. The next question would be, if she can even use it instantly. In all situations the technique was applied, the user had several minutes of preperation time. In fact: If Kreia could do that at will, 90 % of KotoR II doesn't make any sense. She should just run around and WTFforcerape anybody in her way. And the last thing would be: Even if she would be able to use the technique in a fight, you really want to assume that Dooku will just stand there and drink a Martini while Kreia attacks him with the force?

Well. What is "her level" in terms of combat if we just exclude the drain thingy. Oh yes: Without it, she has her ass handed to her by the likes of Sion or the Exile. And you really think she can go 1vs1 against Dooku and live to tell the tale?

Urm? We have seen Dooku force-raping several Dark Jedi, two Jedi Masters, the Chosen One and one Jedi Council Member. The action that Traya pulled of against the Masters just work because they couldn't put up any defense against the technique. Dooku destroyed individuals quite capable of defending themselves with the force. It didn't help them too much, did it?

Fine with me.
It's Malak and not Sion by the way. But I wonder. What force defenses are you talking about? You can look into any source present about the KotoR time. Once a technique is fired, it hits. Those people apparently don't care or don't have any actual "force defense" in the sense of "force bubbles to protect them" like the later generations. Apparently, they just survive force attacks out of sheer luck (e.g. Kun resisting the Wall of Light) or because being head and shoulders above their respective opponents.

Otherwise it doesn't make much sense to enable Malak to actually put Revan into a force stun. Or that force attacks actually always hit. Now you can ask yourself what Traya, defeated by an average Jedi, and Malak - who couldn't even take down Revan when powered up by the Star Forge - would be able to put into a battle against Dooku. Theire uber cool force abilities - or their mega lightsaber skills? This against an opponent who, I may point it out once more, did smoke several Jedi duos.

I'll get back to this when I'm less annoyed.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Nai, i agree with you that Dooku takes this, and would most likely survive Kreia's force drain, due to his greater power in the force.

If Dooku was that damn good than Sidious would'nt have to look for a more powerful apprentice. Dooku would be sufficient to carry Sidious' agenda.

Dooku was good and all but he wasn't a "Force Titan" like Darth Sidious, as some people here are trying to portray him to be. I am willing to bet that even George Lucas will agree with me on this.

And how Dooku will be able to block Traya's Force Sever attack? Being "powerful" is not enough. Please do mention a defensive technique, which Dooku can use to block the Force Sever attack (if he really knows one such).

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
But, i don't think Qey'Tek is a defense against force drain. Qey'Tek just masks the force, but the force is still there, just not noticed.

And why would lucas agree with you legend?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Dooku is powerful enough to take on and defeat two powerful Dark Lords of the Sith simultaneously? Am I missing something? 🙄

Really? So all individuals who attain a title have similar skill levels? I guess that Johun Othone (Jedi Knight) could take RotS Anakin (who was also a Jedi Knight). The truth is, titles mean very little during a versus match. Ventress wasn't a Sith, yet she killed ~17 Jedi masters. That Kreia and Sion are DLotS is largely irrelevant.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

If Dooku was that damn good than Sidious would'nt have to look for a more powerful apprentice. Dooku would be sufficient to carry Sidious' agenda.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Dooku was good and all but he wasn't a "Force Titan" like Darth Sidious, as some people here are trying to portray him to be. I am willing to bet that even George Lucas will agree with me on this.

😐

Do you have any evidence that Lucas would agree? Evidence that has a higher canonicity rating (I think I just made that term up but you know what I mean) than the RotS novelization that was approved by Lucas himself? I don't think you do.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

And how Dooku will be able to block Traya's Force Sever attack? Being "powerful" is not enough. Please do mention a defensive technique, which Dooku can use to block the Force Sever attack (if he really knows one such).

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

just not noticed.

I agree with you here!

How does one attack something that can't be noticed?

No RH, Nai has not been over this. The Quey'tek technique won't stop an instakill.