Originally posted by Darth SexyAll i asked was that if it was proven that traya can simply drop any one with that force attack DS, where exactly did i even claim dooku could block it?While I'm not a debating extraordinaire like Escape or Faunus, I do know the basics. For instance, my contention is that she has the force drain which, according to sources, there is no defense for. YOU are claiming Dooku can defend against it so the burden of proof shifts to you.
How about the fact that a 4000 year gap between the two eras would in time a defence be developed for? Didn't advent point this out before?
And please name the "sources" that state that technique has no defence for it, let me guess, ms ugly kreia?
Right lets not forget she is highly fallible considering she made claims about the ancient sith making revan and friends look like children in combat despite never seeing them in combat(and the fact that naga sadow, one of the most infamous ancient sith had his amulet aiding him in pulling out a brick on a dark side empowered world).
Name another source and ill shut up.
Originally posted by Darth SexyI don't get it, if her technique severs peoples connection and if ones connection is mask, how do you sever something you cannot see?
High Council members, the best of their order. Still, the fact that Traya says there is no defense. Whether this technique is borne of the ancient sith, malachor V, or of being a would in the force, you have no proof that it can be defended against.
Doesn't que'tek mask your force connection? And the fact that dooku is sort of good in this technique?
Originally posted by Darth SexyI'm not even trying to weaken any characters, i mean why should i even have the thought of doing that when there is absolutely nothing to substantiate their powers or combat prowess?
I never claimed Ventress was trash. I was just showing you how you're attempting to weaken certain characters to strengthen your argument, unsuccessfully.
Originally posted by DorianYates
All i asked was that if it was proven that traya can simply drop any one with that force attack DS, where exactly did i even claim dooku could block it?
How about the fact that a 4000 year gap between the two eras would in time a defence be developed for? Didn't advent point this out before?
And please name the "sources" that state that technique has no defence for it, let me guess, ms ugly kreia?
Right lets not forget she is highly fallible considering she made claims about the ancient sith making revan and friends look like children in combat despite never seeing them in combat(and the fact that naga sadow, one of the most infamous ancient sith had his amulet aiding him in pulling out a brick on a dark side empowered world).Name another source and ill shut up.
I don't get it, if her technique severs peoples connection and if ones connection is mask, how do you sever something you cannot see?
Qey'tek isn't an unbreakable defence as some people consider it to be, considering (damn, no synonyms, brain freeze) that Obi-wan was able to brake through it (on Tythe) because he knew where to look. With Dooku standing right in front of I'm sure the duo could do the same. They're not bli-.......... well, Malak's not blind you know.
Sorry. Due to my ISP totally screwing my connection, I didn't have any I-Net access during the last days / weeks.
Originally posted by Kotor3
Nai I usually respect your arguments but I do not know what you are trying to do here. I know what the techniques do. The point is both render the user defenseless to the force and unable to use it. However those who used it were unable to defend themselves against the technique.
The question is what is attacked by the technique. As far as we know, the "instakill" attack is aimed against the force connection of a living being. Now: What do you want to aim the attack it, when the force connection is hidden (Qey'Tek)? There would be no target. And just have a look at how Dooku himself descripes Sidious using that technique. He calls him a "black hole" in the force. Sounds familiar?
You mentioning this proves what? What an assumption to imply that the technique was of no concern since future Siths did not use it. Perhaps is simply means they had no knowledge of it since it may have not been passed down. You are assuming Revan passed that knowledge down or perhaps it was one of the techniques that scared Bane.
This is stupid. We know that the knowledge was passed down, given that Sidious does actively use the force drain technique. Furthermore: Bane had Revan's holocron. How could Revan not have had any knowledge about the technique? And I don't see any reason for Revan not passing it down (as he did give away stuff like the thought bomb), nor do I see why Bane would have been afraid of it (given that it doesn't cause any harm to it's user).
For the record seeing and experiencing does not mean you know how to replicate.
In case of that very technique this is exactly the case, as Traya mentions that it's learned through experiencing it.
Your point! Vrook comments mean what? At the end of the game the exile was much more powerful. Anyway DS answered this already.
DS is so full of shit that I moved him to my ignorelist. Sorry. I'm not here to feed that troll any longer. And the Exile is much more powerful? You base that on what exactly?
The Exile lost all of her memories (and powers) and recovers them through the game. Why would she be considerably more powerful than she was in her early Jedi days? Because you or DS say so? That doesn't work. That aside: Her powers in the game are spawning from her force bonds to others - Vrook mentions that as exceptional ability of the otherwise average Jedi.
And you really want to compare the Exile to Darth Tyranus aka Count Dooku? That seems to be a little bit laughable.
You only need one to block and she uses three. Without going through everything else you said. I gave a reasonable way in which Dooku could engage the fight and win.
Excuse me? You really want to tell us that you need nothing but a lightsaber to block force lightning? Do you want to assume that those lightning arcs - for no apparent reason - are drawn towards the lightsaber? Then I wonder how Sidious managed to disarm Yoda with that ability.
Apparently you need the force to focus the lightning onto the blade - then you need enough physical power (either raw strength or force aided strength) to keep your lightsaber where it is. You want to tell me that Kreia would be able to levitate the lightsabers, focus the lightning on one (or all) of those sabers using the force and then keep said sabers where they are against the power of the lightning? I find that rather unlikely.
You have shown nothing that points to Dooku being superior to the combine might of both of them in the force department or being able to block a force drain. Thus Dooku gets force rape. End of discussion.
What "combined might" are you talking about? Do I have to point out the facts once more: Malak is a freaking Padawan with a maximum of 2 years of Dark Side studies. Kreia is a Jedi Librarian who just had the fortune of learning one pretty nice Dark Side technique.
Dooku, on the other side, is one of the most powerful beings ever appearing in the SW universe, an accomplished Jedi Master, a master duellist and a Sith Lord who studied the Dark Side extensively for a decade and here and there for 6 decades.
So where is the "might" that will force him down? Much less any "combined" might. They are just fighting the same opponent at the same time, which doesn't mean they would come up with any decent teamwork. In fact: If you consider their showings, we would have to assume that Malak attempts to cut Dooku down, while Kreia focusses on her defence, and levitates some lightsabers around in order to stop Dooku from entering melee combat. What exactly stops Dooku from force raping those two (or at least one of the duo) on the spot? Their never-demonstrated ability to defend themselves against attacks of persons on Dooku's level - when Kreia can't manage to do that against the Exile and even an SF powered force attack immune Malak got his ass handed to him by a single Revan? Doesn't sound very likely. And if you consider their usual m.o., Dookus just has to either outduell or force rape Malak before cutting through Kreias 3-levitating-lightsabers defense and kill her too. Not much of a problem, I suppose.
@Faunus
Nope. But to state otherwise is to assume that they all waded into battle completely incapable of defending themselves against a telekinetic attack, telepathic suggestion, or any variant of lightning or drain.
Look at the sources and find me one instance in which a character has defended himself against a force attack prior to the days of Darth Bane. Sorry to tell you: Sadow manages to hit Kressh with a telekinetically thrown stone. Kun just "resists" the Wall of Light attack, yet he is still thrown around by Odan's attempt to cut his connection to the force off. Arca Jeth gets owned by a single attack of King Ommin (the same for Nomi and her friends). And so on, and so forth. There is not a single instance in which one Jedi or Sith manages to defend themselves against a force manouver.
And this is quite logical if you think about it: There wasn't any conflict between force users for millenia. So why should they develop techniques that would enable them to defend themselves against force attacks anyway? Or do you have any other explanation for, just an example, Malak simply force stunning Revan and Bastilla, when the first was - possibly - already more powerful than him? Doesn't make sense.
And keep in mind that Traya specifically notes that the technique employed by Nihilus (and herself?) is one against which "there is no defense." This implies that it is at least unusual for there to be no defense to a given technique, and considering how basic telekinesis is, that's far too much of a stretch.
What Kreia actually says is that there are techniques against which there is no defence, which actually implies that there are multiple techniques that they don't have any defence against. How many techniques have you seen in the PT era that people didn't even know any defense against? That aside: Even if you want to give them the regular defense of the PT era characters (which would imply that the Jedi didn't improve their force defense over 4,000 years with one millenia of constant battles against Sith forces): There is hardly a being in the PT able to counter force attacks of Dooku, no matter if it's force lightning or TK. In fact, Dooku levels everybody he attacks with the force - with Yoda being the only exception.
Do you really think that Malak or Kreia, even assuming they have the ability to defend themselves against force attacks, would be able to defend themselves against force attacks coming from Dooku? Especially considering that Dooku uses different attacks simultaneously? I don't think they would be able to do the job if Dooku really attempts to overwhelm one of them with the force.
Actually, the Tales of the Jedi Companion confirms that the Jedi of the period were capable of shielding themselves with the Force as well as simply resisting attacks. Both are listed as basic Jedi abilities.
Also, may I ask where Dooku's shown to actually use the Force to overpower a prepared Jedi of note? In most cases he uses the Force in a sudden manner in the settings of a fast paced, close combat lightsaber battle (where it's likely that they get caught off guard and are unable to apply their defences to meet his attack) or, as was the case with Asajj, against non hostile Force Users at a moment's notice without any real warning or justification (why would you have your defences ready against an ally who doesn't appear to have any reason to attack you?).
In fact, when is Dooku shown doing anything truly of note with the Force?
Originally posted by BorbaradIs it inconceivable that Kressh was simply caught unawares?
Sorry to tell you: Sadow manages to hit Kressh with a telekinetically thrown stone.
And this is a bad example, anyway. If Sadow can telekinetically move a brick, then Kressh, who toppled a rather large stone statue with a gesture, should be able to as well. Moving on...
Kun just "resists" the Wall of Light attack, yet he is still thrown around by Odan's attempt to cut his connection to the force off.And that couldn't possibly be indicative of a raised defense?
Arca Jeth gets owned by a single attack of King Ommin (the same for Nomi and her friends).What exactly did Ommin do to Arca?
And this is quite logical if you think about it: There wasn't any conflict between force users for millenia. So why should they develop techniques that would enable them to defend themselves against force attacks anyway?The Hundred Years War? The Exar Kun War? The very existence of the Sith?
Or do you have any other explanation for, just an example, Malak simply force stunning Revan and Bastilla, when the first was - possibly - already more powerful than him?He caught them by surprise. You realize that Master Farfalla managed to momentarily lock Bane in stasis, right?
The idea that opposing groups of Force-users would exist and clash in combat while employing an array of offensive techniques and not develop any sort of defense for them is absolutely absurd.
What Kreia actually says is that there are [b]techniques against which there is no defence, which actually implies that there are multiple techniques that they don't have any defence against.[/b]The fact that she specifically notes that there are "techniques" for which there is no defense would imply that it is unusual for a given technique to have no defense, which means that the majority of techniques can be defended against.
How many techniques have you seen in the PT era that people didn't even know any defense against?How many techniques have we even seen used in the PT? Off the top of my head, I can count variants of telekinesis, lightning, telepathy, and whatever it was Dooku did to Ventress.
That aside: Even if you want to give them the regular defense of the PT era characters (which would imply that the Jedi didn't improve their force defense over 4,000 years with one millenia of constant battles against Sith forces): There is hardly a being in the PT able to counter force attacks of Dooku, no matter if it's force lightning or TK. In fact, Dooku levels everybody he attacks with the force - with Yoda being the only exception.Do you really think that Malak or Kreia, even assuming they have the ability to defend themselves against force attacks, would be able to defend themselves against force attacks coming from Dooku?
Me
Whether they can actually dissipate Dooku's telekinetic attacks is another story, but the two are almost certainly capable of at least mounting a defense.
Me
That said, I would probably put my money on Dooku in a fight between the [three].
Especially considering that Dooku uses different attacks simultaneously? I don't think they would be able to do the job if Dooku really attempts to overwhelm one of them with the force.Well, he is being double-teamed by two at least exceptional Force-users.
Of course, this is where unknown syndrome pops in; there is no way to truly quantify their combat capabilities relative to those of Dooku, so really, there's no point in arguing it.
Originally posted by Publius II
Is it inconceivable that Kressh was simply caught unawares?
A rather powerful Sith Lord who is clearly capable of prediction is getting "caught unawares" by the opponent he just fights with an action like that. You suppose that Kressh is somehow inable to sense the force movement Sadow is applying to move the brick and toss it right against his head?
And that couldn't possibly be indicative of a raised defense?
Apparently not, because that technique is equally "unblockable". And why would a defence stop the original purpose of an attack (strip one from the force) just to generate some secondary effect (knocking Kun backwards)?
What exactly did Ommin do to Arca?
He knocked him out with a blast of Dark Side energy. He did the same when Nomi and her friends came to rescue Arca later, with the only being resisting that effect was Ulic Qel-Droma who simply jumped right through the attack.
The Hundred Years War? The Exar Kun War? The very existence of the Sith?
Urm. May I remind you that the Sith had almost forgotten the Jedi prior to Sadows invasion of the Republic. Otherwise Ragnos wouldn't need to lecture Kressh and Sadow on the topic, correct? One could conclude that the Jedi would have forgotten the Sith as well to a certain extend. And the Exar Kun war? Well...not much of a need to develop defences against Dark Side techniques there, also not much time, considering that Kun killed anybody he faced directly.
The very existance of the Sith? What Sith? Once again: The first Sith where Exiles and it's not even certain that the Jedi knew about them. Then they drove them to extinction in their very first conflict with them (Sadow's invasion and following events). The next time, a Sith was popping up, happened a thousand years later. And again the Jedi solved that conflict with the almost total extinction of the Sith. So why would they spent their time developing techniques that they - pretty much never - needed. And even if they had those techniques, why would they focus on them?
He caught them by surprise. You realize that Master Farfalla managed to momentarily lock Bane in stasis, right?
The keyword is "momentarily" as you can shake off force stasis - normally. Atton, Bastilla and Revan keep standing there for quite some time when one should expect that at least Revan would be able to shake it off - at least faster than Bastilla.
The idea that opposing groups of Force-users would exist and clash in combat while employing an array of offensive techniques and not develop any sort of defense for them is absolutely absurd.
Once more, Faunus: What opposing groups of Force-users? The only constant war between Jedi and Sith happened in the 1000 years before the Ruusan reformation. Before that, every conflict of that kind, ended with the fast extinction of one of both sides - often in a single act of violence.
And the only defense mentioned in all sources dealing with the KotoR era is battle meditation used by Nomi Sunrider to stop the illusions of Aleema Keto. Anything else that happens in terms of force defense seems to be "resist an effect due to your own power" - nothing else.
The fact that she specifically notes that there are "techniques" for which there is no defense would imply that it is unusual for a given technique to have no defense, which means that the majority of techniques can be defended against.
The point is that there are multiple techniques against which there is no defense - in the time of KotoR. What techniques? Oh. I don't know. Because there doesn't seem to be a single technique that they use active defense against (with the exception noted above). So there is the possibility that they didn't have any defense against any more complex force technique (which would include the like of force lightning). Which means, in turn, that Dooku could simply force rape them - while it's entirely possible that the PT era knows a defense against the noted techniques.
Again: This is assuming that they did refine their force defense over the time span of 4,000 years. An idea that you seem to support yourself.
How many techniques have we even seen used in the PT? Off the top of my head, I can count variants of telekinesis, lightning, telepathy, and whatever it was Dooku did to Ventress.
Yes. And every of that techniques was countered at a certain point in the PT era. Did you see somebody in the KotoR era blocking force lightning? Did you see them blocking even telekinesis?
Well, he is being double-teamed by two at least exceptional Force-users.
Exceptional? By what standards?
Malak was the #2 out of the Jedi that rebelled against the Council when they went into the Mandalorian Wars. He still was a Padawan and he still just went Dark Side for 2 years. Yet all his showings are happening on the Star Forge which boosted his abilities. Despite of that, he still doesn't demonstrate anything special. In fact he utterly fails with his attempt to defeat his former master.
Traya is just one of the few Force Users being left in the entire Galaxy. Is she powerful? Who the hell knows? Her only demonstration of power is owning people with a technique that those people couldn't defend themselves against. That I can put a bullet through your head doesn't mean I would be able to defeat you in a game of Chess, does it?
So where are their "exceptional" showings? Where did they show anything that would allow us to place them even remotely close to one of the most powerful individuals the Jedi Order has produced in his 25,000 year history. A guy that force raped Jedi Masters and Sith Acolytes for fun. You may want to consider Dooku's showings in the Clone Wars series too - which are hilarious here and there.
Of course, this is where unknown syndrome pops in; there is no way to truly quantify their combat capabilities relative to those of Dooku, so really, there's no point in arguing it.
Well...in that case, there is no reason to argue any fight at all, unless it has actually happened so that we can quantify the abilities of the opponents - but, of course, in this case we would already know the outcome of the fight, which would make the entire "debating" thing rather boring, right?
I'll get back to the rest tomorrow, but this apparently requires clarification.
Well...in that case, there is no reason to argue any fight at all, unless it has actually happened so that we can quantify the abilities of the opponents - but, of course, in this case we would already know the outcome of the fight, which would make the entire "debating" thing rather boring, right?Uh, no. The vast majority of KotOR-era character have been given either such minimal exposure or so few detailed "feats" that we have no way of accurately gauging their power relative to individuals who have their abilities fully fleshed out. Nihilus, who pulled a starship out of a gravity well, would probably come closest to being a character with "quantifiable" abilities.
If that was at all illegible, I apologize.
faunus
Idiot I, win. They are weak.
Nai
With such jokes, you should begin rather not at all first. Therein I am become could substantially better, than you it ever.The power with you may be.
Wut? Faunus's post looks like he traded positions (now he's arguing against the team's basic competence) and Nai's translation butchers English syntax. The autotranslator clearly lost something, eh?
(English statements in German [even when translated] seem curiously ominous- far more than in the romance languages.)