Count Nefaria vs Superman

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
None the less, the cosmic egg containing Krona was featured in JLA and it is canon for DC.

Marvel can figure out their own damn continuity and canon. durfist

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
By the way I dont think non-canon sources are automatically rejected. If you can prove that the characters are like their mainstream counterparts it should be ok, especially if you have a canon source to back it up.

Originally posted by Avlon
It's canon. Stupidity of SMVFL stuff aside, it happened.

Not everyone takes continuity seriously or tries to piece together "facts" to form the "conclusions" that are accepted by individual fans or comic boards. The public couldn't care less. They just want to see fisticuff's and the good guys win at the end.

For once we agree. The rules basically state that if a crossover does something that is smvfl then it can't be used. However, at the same time they do state no noncanon sources. Then again, posters opinions are noncanon as well....

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Yeah but it does state there are rare exceptions. Obvoulsy the reason for this is because sometimes non-canon sources tend to have like you say PIS or SvFL. If not then it should be ok.

People dissect things to such ridiculous extremes now (things that the authors themselves don't even think about) that it's funny just seeing some of the things that are conjured up.

An xover has just as much chance as a regular comic for either fair portrayal or horrible showings. After all, it's the very same writers who do both the canon and non-canon work. The story should come first no matter what.

Originally posted by Avlon
People dissect things to such ridiculous extremes now (things that the authors themselves don't even think about) that it's funny just seeing some of the things that are conjured up.

I think the stars are in alignment...I totally agree (eventhough I dont always agree with you).

Originally posted by Avlon

An xover has just as much chance as a regular comic for either fair portrayal or horrible showings. After all, it's the very same writers who do both the canon and non-canon work. The story should come first no matter what.

Yeah I guess so...

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
If the adventure could never have happened, then it can't be canon. Canonicity deals with history. If it happened, it happened, whether or not it includes nonsensical instances during fights. We have PIS to deal with nonsensical instances happening during fights, etc. We have the non-canon rules to deal with crossovers, what if's, alternate futures, etc.

What's been shown/stated in print is proof enough. Obviously due to the nature of IP and cross company politics, what's shown/referred to afterwards has to be tippy toed around for obvious legal reasons.

Originally posted by Avlon
People dissect things to such ridiculous extremes now (things that the authors themselves don't even think about) that it's funny just seeing some of the things that are conjured up.

An xover has just as much chance as a regular comic for either fair portrayal or horrible showings. After all, it's the very same writers who do both the canon and non-canon work. The story should come first no matter what.

Originally posted by Avlon
People dissect things to such ridiculous extremes now (things that the authors themselves don't even think about) that it's funny just seeing some of the things that are conjured up.

An xover has just as much chance as a regular comic for either fair portrayal or horrible showings. After all, it's the very same writers who do both the canon and non-canon work. The story should come first no matter what.

This isn't a ridiculous dissection of a story. It's just one of the most obvious holes in plot that nobody usually focuses on because they're too obsessed with how Superman fought Thor. Those artifacts couldn't have been where they were at that approximate time in either DC or Marvel history. Therefore, the story itself couldn't have happened unless it was an alternate universe. And alternate universes are explicitly not canon. It's as simple as that.

I see this thread getting closed soon.

There are a few posters who have no more chances that still continue with their trollish posting.

You all have been given fair warning.

Originally posted by fangirl101
um superman can't even match ds in a fight. Only the most ridiculous superman fanboys actually think supes can. So ur example fails.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
What are you guys talking about? We don't dismiss What If's and alternate futures and the like purely based on whether or not they make sense. Some of them make perfect sense. But we dismiss them if they are not in fact, occurences in accepted canon history.

I was under the impression one of the reasons was that it doesnt make sense. It does state in the rules there are exceptions I suspect thats what those maybe.

Logically the story making sense should be the most important thing because eventhough it never happened it still demonstrates capability.

A simulation may not be real but it still can be used to predict a real event.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
What are you guys talking about? We don't dismiss What If's and alternate futures and the like purely based on whether or not they make sense. Some of them make perfect sense. But we dismiss them if they are not in fact, occurences in accepted canon history. If the Infinity Gauntlet couldn't have been reassembled on Apokolips of all places, then the story couldn't have happened.

Who is we? Are you speaking for everyone? Guess everyone must be in perfect adherence to the same opinion...

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
This isn't a ridiculous dissection of a story. It's just one of the most obvious holes in plot that nobody usually focuses on because they're too obsessed with how Superman fought Thor. Those artifacts couldn't have been where they were at that approximate time in either DC or Marvel history. Therefore, the story itself couldn't have happened unless it was an alternate universe. And alternate universes are explicitly not canon. It's as simple as that.

Again....

Originally posted by Avlon
What's been shown/stated in print is proof enough. Obviously due to the nature of IP and cross company politics, what's shown/referred to afterwards has to be tippy toed around for obvious legal reasons.

In addition... A lot of times, things that are supposedly canon still don't make sense even within an ongoing series.

Even if it was noncanon...at the end it's your noncanon opinion vs the authors.

Jla avengers is canon period. There is a marvel handbook that mentions it and the current trinity continuation of that.

Which one?

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
I was under the impression one of the reasons was that it doesnt make sense. It does state in the rules there are exceptions I suspect thats what those maybe.

Logically the story making sense should be the most important thing because eventhough it never happened it still demonstrates capability.

A simulation may not be real but it still can be used to predict a real event.

One of the main reasons we have a blanket rule for crossovers is that they usually don't make sense. And you can dismiss their canonicity purely on how ridiculous they are. JLA/Avengers doesn't make sense in many respects and makes sense in others. I agree with that. We could then use rules of PIS to dismiss certain occurrences... if it were canon. But it's not canon because the whole story happens in an alternate universe.

Bottom-line is, canonicity deals with history. Punisher/Batman clearly occurs in an alternate universe. Because in that universe, New York and Gotham City exist in the United States and both characters have heard of each other before they even meet. Obviously, that could never happen in the proper DC or Marvel Universe. It happens in an alternate universe. It had to have happened in an alternate universe. And alternate universes are not canon. Explicit bright-line rule. Same thing with JLA/Avengers. Those artifacts couldn't have been where they were. At all. Alternate universe.

You want to use it to illustrate what you would think happen? That's fine. I've always liked how Chuck Dixon portrayed Batman beating on Punisher in their crossover. Most people agree. So I'll reference it in my discussion with people who agree with me. But I'm not going to hold it as the end-all be-all, canon instance, citable evidence of what actually occurred when I debate with another person who disagrees that's how it should have went down. And JLA/Avengers is one of the most hotly debated crossovers ever. It's not canon. Use it, talk about it. Don't hold it against other people as citable evidence in a debate. That wasn't them. That was an alternate universe(s) filled with alternate versions of those characters.

Originally posted by fangirl101
Jla avengers is canon period. There is a marvel handbook that mentions it and the current trinity continuation of that.

Nefaria punches him in the face.

Superman won't be expecting that.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Christ. It's not canon. It happens in an alternate universe where those artifacts happened to be where they were. Whether you want to rely on an ambiguous construction of the crossover rule is irrelevant. It's an alternate universe. Alternate characters. Alternate universes/future are absolutely not-citable as evidence because those stories didn't really involve our actual current versions of characters we usually use. Bright-line rule.

Originally posted by fangirl101
Jla avengers is canon period. There is a marvel handbook that mentions it and the current trinity continuation of that.

...But handbooks are not canon....

I've never seen the handbook this was mentioned in...

Can someone show me it, so I can ignore it even farther?

Originally posted by Mekrob
I've never seen the handbook this was mentioned in...

Can someone show me it, so I can ignore it even farther?

Originally posted by fangirl101
um lulz. It happened in a combination reality of eternity and kismet. As far as I know there is only one of each in totality. U can scream till ur blue in the face its canon recognized by both companies.

You're completely incorrect. You need to reread JLA/Avengers again. The combination reality of Eternity and Kismet doesn't happen until after the artifacts have been gathered and Grandmaster uses them to merge the two realities. The Avengers and JLA go running around in each other's universes and their own universes to recover the scattered artifacts before the merged reality.

And I'd appreciate it if you don't mischaracterize me as screaming. As if screaming would take away the truth of my statements. I'm not screaming. I'm exasperrated at having to explain such obvious and indisputable facts to people who are resistant to the rules simply because it serves their own opinions. You're saying it's canon because it makes sense to you (but not to others) and even though the adventure clearly happens in alternate universe(s) and there's some vague reference in a handbook? Batman/Punisher makes perfect sense to me except it happens in an alternate universe. I wouldn't use a vague reference in one company's handbook to support it's canonicity.