Superboy Prime vs Darkseid (h2h)

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Your exactly right and that goes directly to his importance as crashing down into a lower dimension. Nobody is arguing that and that is my point. However, none of that was from his own power set causing that to happen as a matter a fact from the start not much was under his control in causing it to even happen in the first place. Your arguing my point trick. His presence in this dimension and importance power etc etc caused all shit to go haywire. No problem however, it was ds waving his hand and his power set causing all that happened is the only point.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
wonder woman's braclets would block everything thrown at her, then she decapitates him with the lasso.

✅

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Your exactly right and that goes directly to his importance as crashing down into a lower dimension. Nobody is arguing that and that is my point. However, none of that was from his own power set causing that to happen as a matter a fact from the start not much was under his control in causing it to even happen in the first place. Your arguing my point trick. His presence in this dimension and importance power etc etc caused all shit to go haywire. No problem however, it was ds waving his hand and his power set causing all that happened is the only point.

It was because of his power and role, who he is which caused the crack, Orion ripped out his heart and it effected the Multiverse, showing everyone how much power DS has taken over the years to effect it that much. 😉

So who is going to explain the sudden crunch in time and space like a FIST that caused everything to be trapped? Cuz that sure as hell wasn't the ALE and it wasn't from DS falling.

^ It was exactly from DS falling. As he manifested in this dimension, the ALE made him become more the master of all existence, such that all existence becomes Darkseid. How does all existence become Darkseid? When all individuals become him. When all existence changes to reflect his current state. And what's his current state? Dmaaged, evil, distorted... and at his core: a void, a singularity. When you have a void, a singularity at the core of all existence (especially concerning the lodestone of Earth-0), then everything crumples in upon itself. It's obvious. It's both literal and metaphorical. That's Grant Morrison.

Originally posted by kevdude
Well I was comparing it to mind-control when I said that, I've also said it does more then that as it makes everyone who hears it makes them Darkseid. I don't think anyone disagrees with that.

Originally posted by comicfan11
There are numerous panel in the comics that prove ALE=mind control.
There isn't but a single panel that proves the ALE to be something else.

Originally posted by kevdude
Wrong again 😂 the ALE was and IS mind control, nothing has been stated otherwise! The ALE was being used BEFORE Darkseid was manifesting into reality and nothing happened until that point, Libra spreading the ALE before is proof of that.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
The ALE doesn't give the ability to control all those people as extensions of yourself, or use them as conduits for your power.

Originally posted by The Great Galen
It's what his powerset implies...and the ALE only had a effect on his control over minds it isn't a amp.

Originally posted by fangirl101
So who is going to explain the sudden crunch in time and space like a FIST that caused everything to be trapped? Cuz that sure as hell wasn't the ALE and it wasn't from DS falling.

Originally posted by Allankles
The singularity is a result of DS total manifestation existing in a lower dimension (No more 4th world to house it), a sign of the level of power he's at, it's not a matter of a mere powerset but a matter of existing amongst lesser beings, in a lesser dimension.

Originally posted by Allankles
He was the only New God that survived the war (Metron being the other).

Originally posted by Allankles
No. I never argued that the ALE is mind control. It is an abstract weapon, whose whole is unimaginable to the beings of the multiverse. A weapon that actually destroys concepts (in this case the concept of free will), you can't fully fathom how such a weapon would function, or be designed.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
The singularity is a result of Orion tearing out DS' heart. Manifesting with his mastery of the ALE forces all existence to conform to his state of being. And since his core is a singularity, the way the lower dimension, i.e. the Multiverse, would react is in fact, by crumpling in upon itself. How would such a crumpling of the Multiverse begin? By the very concepts of time and space cracking.
Orion survived as well. He was killed after the war.
And since the ALE actually cracks time and space on-panel, then what is the real problem accepting such a concept? Because you have some sort of unfulfilled wish that DS himself could do so?

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
The singularity is a result of Orion tearing out DS' heart. Manifesting with his mastery of the ALE forces all existence to conform to his state of being.

Just to clear this up FC didn't go with Countdown's interpretation. DOTNG was the closest representation of what happened pre FC with the New Gods, but again even that doesn't represent what happened according to Morrison's vision. They were grafted in (extremely) loosely to FC. So yes Orion wounded him but we're not sure it was a matter of reaping out his heart.

^ We all know that. No need to state the obvious. It's still obvious that Orion gravely wounded Darkseid's true form in the Fourth World.

Originally posted by fangirl101
Please show me one panel that states that the ALE gave DS a power boost. If it did, how come there was even a war? he should have over powered everyone right? How did orion manage to rip out his heart with such a powerful boost? The only thing I can think of is that the new gods in thier true form are as stated, multiversal beings.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Because you have some sort of unfulfilled wish that DS himself could do so?

Hardly, I just go by what was stated, explained and demonstrated. And it was DS that caused the singularity upon his manifestation in the material world.

According to Morrison he began warping reality and messing up the multiverse and continuity after the Radion poisoning as we see in FC 7, that part was just spite on his part.

Originally posted by Allankles
Hardly, I just go by what was stated, explained and demonstrated. And it was DS that caused the singularity upon his manifestation in the material world.

According to Morrison he began warping reality and messing up the multiverse after the Radion poisoning as we see in FC 7.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ We all know that. No need to state the obvious. It's still obvious that Orion gravely wounded Darkseid's true form in the Fourth World.
Straw-man. Mastery of the ALE precipitated the war and DS' fall. The New Gods obviously had their own weapons, such as Metron's letter. Either way, it didn't help them in the end because they got wiped out anyway. Orion managed to rip out his heart in ways that cannot be conceived by our imagination, in keeping with the scope of Final Crisis. In Death of the New Gods, Orion did so by combining with the Source. That was obviously only one interpretation of what we could possibly know of what actually occurred. The New Gods obviously transcend the normal dimension. But since Grant Morrison specifically takes his time to show the effects of the ALE, to describe how the scope of the ALE is beyond imagination, to outright state that the ALE cracks time and space and outright state that the ALE precipitates the disastrous events of Final Crisis, it's obvious that you cannot divorce any of Darkseid's feats in Final Crisis from the ALE.

Actually, grant in several interviews has stated that the New gods were so far beyond what they had been used for previously. It was his intent to show their power with or without the ALE. DS didn't have the ALE in Seven soldiers. And that according to grant is what happened before FC. in Seven Soldiers DS cracks time and space and creates alternate realties. Now, explain away that with the ale. Tee hee.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
No, according to Morrison, the warping of reality and crackign of time and space begin in Final Crisis #4, well before Darkseid's defeat of Turpin's soul. I already posted these scans several times, they won't go away because you wish to be selective:

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
No, according to Morrison, the warping of reality and cracking of time and space began in Final Crisis #4, well before Darkseid's defeat of Turpin's soul and before his actual manifestation in the lower dimension. I already posted these scans several times, they won't go away because you wish to be selective:

Actually the part Morrison was talking about (DS warping reality and ruinign continuities was the result of the Radion bullet, and I already countered that ages ago with this scan.

"Space time around Earth just crumpled like it had been crushed with a fist." And my favourite: "The impact of Darkseid's fall is causing cracks to spread across all space sectors"

The relevant evidence of what I was talking about concerning what Morrison stated about what DS did after the Radion poisoning is here.

You're talking about a moment that has no relation to what I was referencing. I was talking about what Morrsion stated was happening after the Radion poisoning.

Originally posted by fangirl101
Actually, grant in several interviews has stated that the New gods were so far beyond what they had been used for previously. It was his intent to show their power with or without the ALE. DS didn't have the ALE in Seven soldiers. And that according to grant is what happened before FC. in Seven Soldiers DS cracks time and space and creates alternate realties. Now, explain away that with the ale. Tee hee.

Tee hee indeed.

Originally posted by Allankles
Actually the part Morrison was talking about (DS warping reality and ruinign continuities was the result of the Radion bullet, and I already countered that ages ago with this scan.

"Space time around Earth just crumpled like it had been crushed with a fist." And my favourite: "The impact of Darkseid's fall is causing cracks to spread across all space sectors"

Originally posted by Allankles
The relevant evidence of what I was talking about concerning what Morrison stated about what DS did after the Radion poisoning is here.

You're talking about a moment that has no relation to what I was referencing. I was talking about what Morrsion stated was happening after the Radion poisoning.

How does this all start? When you master an equation that makes you master of all existence, such that existence literally becomes you: Anti-Life Equation.

How do I know the ALE does this? Because the skies rain blood? Meh. Nobody ever directly used the ALE on the skies. So that's debateable. Because time and space crack? Yea. Because Mokkari uses it on the Internet and time and space crack on-panel. Because normal human beings directly infected with ALE end up being extensions of DS' body such that they shoot friggin Omega Finder Beams out their eyes? Yea. Because it's stupidly obvious the ALE was used on them on-panel:

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
No. It's clearly stated that Darkseid uses the ALE in Seven Soldiers. It's stated plain as day in the scan in the page prior. Let me cut and paste the relevant sentences for your benefit:

Tee hee.
Exactly, the impact. Not Darkseid himself. And this is Darkseid with mastery of the ALE. When you fall through the Multiverse, and you have the ALE which makes you master of the Multiverse, such that the Multiverse becomes you, what would the impact of falling through it do? Duh.
By then, the damage was already done. And you still cannot divorce that from when the ALE cracks time and space on it's own when Mokkari releases it over the Internet. So how does posting these scans do anything to contradict a single thing I've said? ALE-master Darkseid can warp all existence such that it becomes him. His only opposition is the other New Gods. He destroys them, but not without grievous wounds. After getting rid of them, he begins manifesting in the lower dimension of existence (since there is no higher existence anymore), and that existence begins warping to become him. Since he is evil, distorted and has a void, a singularity in his heart, how would our concept of existence be affected? It would distort, become evil and would have a singularity at it's center, Earth-0. When you have a singularity at the base of all existence, then time and space crack, then break down and crumple upon itself.

How does this all start? When you master an equation that makes you master of all existence, such that existence literally becomes you.

How do I know the ALE does this? Because the skies rain blood? Meh. Nobody ever directly used the ALE on the skies. So that's debateable. Because time and space crack? Yea. Because Mokkari uses it on the Internet and time and space crack on-panel. Because normal human beings directly infected with ALE end up being extensions of DS' body such that they shoot friggin Omega Finder Beams out their eyes? Yea. Because it's stupidly obvious the ALE was used on them on-panel.

A new form of the ALE and what did it do? Tee hee. Cuz it was the omega force that warped reality. It sickens me that One would think that an ale would boost DS so greatly and yet there is still a war in heaven in which he still loses by falling. Obviously your theory of the ale being a power boost is a big fat no. Or Orion would have simply gotten steam rolled.

Question.

How does Orion, A being that many refuse to believe is anything more than a herald lvler, manage to cause DS to fall if DS has this great power up that supposedly makes him master of all reality"?

Since the ALE boosts DS so greatly that it is what allows him to literally crack time and space, how does Orion compete?

Unless Orion in his true form is already multiversal as are all the new gods and the ALE isn't the power boost that some want it to be.

Imagine Silver Surfer defeating thanos with the IG. Impossible.

That is basically what people are saying happened here since they think the ALE is an uber power up artifact/weapon.

Originally posted by fangirl101
Question.

How does Orion, A being that many refuse to believe is anything more than a herald lvler, manage to cause DS to fall if DS has this great power up that supposedly makes him master of all reality"?

Since the ALE boosts DS so greatly that it is what allows him to literally crack time and space, how does Orion compete?

Unless Orion in his true form is already multiversal as are all the new gods and the ALE isn't the power boost that some want it to be.

Imagine Silver Surfer defeating thanos with the IG. Impossible.

That is basically what people are saying happened here since they think the ALE is an uber power up artifact/weapon.

I already know that the ALE is a concept that disproves the concept of free will, Morrison via FC secret files makes this clear, it's not a power up. Yes and the New Gods are multiversal as Libra points out, they are singular beings in the DCU.

I'm just entertaining odg, I'm giving him my abridged version of events as he insists on repeating points we've been over already.

EDIT: Also Morrison was depicting them as Kirby did, as embodiments of concepts.

Originally posted by fangirl101
A new form of the ALE and what did it do? Tee hee. Cuz it was the omega force that warped reality. It sickens me that One would think that an ale would boost DS so greatly and yet there is still a war in heaven in which he still loses by falling. Obviously your theory of the ale being a power boost is a big fat no. Or Orion would have simply gotten steam rolled.

Your incredulity at Orion wounding Darkseid is disingenuous. You're already trying to argue that the New Gods are multiversal beings. So why wouldn't all the New Gods + Orion be able to fight Darkseid off in your warped opinion? Clearly, you're arguing against yourself now. But we know the real truth: the New Gods had their own weapons, some of which we don't see, one of which we do: Metron's letter. The New Gods also fought in a battle we didn't actually witness, so how they fought against Darkseid is mere speculation. What we do know is that they did, they lost, their entire vibratory dimension was destroyed and Orion himself wounded Darkseid. Therefore, suggesting that they couldn't do so, even though they had weapons, even though they obviously did, but in a pyrrhic victory... is just mere recalcitrance that only serves to undermine your own assertions.

Originally posted by fangirl101
Question.

How does Orion, A being that many refuse to believe is anything more than a herald lvler, manage to cause DS to fall if DS has this great power up that supposedly makes him master of all reality"?

Since the ALE boosts DS so greatly that it is what allows him to literally crack time and space, how does Orion compete?

Orion doesn't compete as basically got sh1t-hammered after all the other New Gods died fighting and their entire vibratory plane of existence was destroyed. They had their weapons and artifacts. Death of the New Gods suggested that Orion merged with the Source to counter Darkseid's mastery of the ALE. Do we have one version of how it could have happened? Yes. Do we know how it actually happened? No. Can we discount the possibility that the New Gods used their artifacts and weapons and some plot-device to resist just hard enough to manage a pyrrhic loss against Darkseid? Obviously not. What are we left with? Evidence that the ALE precipitated everything, evidence that it affects time and space, evidence that it is more than mind-control, evidence that it makes existence become DS. It all connects. The only thing that prevents you from seeing it is the hope that DS, on his own power, could do everything leading up to Final Crisis and during Final Crisis without the ALE. And that's nothing short of foolish.