^ Fine. Darkseid's mastery of the ALE precipitated everything before Final Crisis. As stated by Grant Morrison. ALE is more than mind-control as proven on-panel. Grant Morrison states we haven't seen the unimaginable whole that is the ALE. ALE pervades every single part of Final Crisis as is plainly obvious.
When the ALE is responsible for many of the feats we see during Final Crisis and is especially responsible for certain feats that had nothing to do with Darkseid's own utilization of his power since he hadn't manifested himself yet, i.e. cracking time and space when Mokkari releases it on the Internet... for you to suggest that Darkseid could do everything he did in Final Crisis without the ALE... is nothing short of absurd. And your positions are tenuous at best since you guys have been corrected multiple times about mistakes in Final Crisis which even you guys admit. And moreover when you guys can't even agree amongst yourselves about many of your arguments.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Fine. Darkseid's mastery of the ALE precipitated everything before Final Crisis. As stated by Grant Morrison. ALE is more than mind-control as proven on-panel. Grant Morrison states we haven't seen the unimaginable whole that is the ALE. ALE pervades every single part of Final Crisis as is plainly obvious.
First of all "precipitates" doesn't mean anything with regards to the ALE's function. Essentially what it means is that when DS acquired the full ALE, New Genesis was forced to go to war with Apokolips, a full scale do-or-die-war. This war proved disastrous and ended the 4th world, nothing more, nothing less.
the effects of that disaster reverberate throughout the multiverse precipitating the arrival of a 5th world ( a new reality) a 5th world which DS wants to prevent because he is falling from of the war in heaven.
The ALE's whole is unimaginable because it is a weapon that attacks concepts. It is not a material weapon and therefore cannot be understood by material principles. It's whole is unimaginable because it is an abstract weapon.
The ALE is a concept "weapon" not a power up.
Originally posted by AllanklesCompletely baseless statements. Darkseid's mastery of the ALE directly and abruptly caused the war in heaven and his own fall, as stated by Morrison himself. That's all we know. You make it sound like the New Gods entered some preemptive strike against Apokolips. And this war didn't just prove disastrous for the Fourth World. It completely and utterly destroys it, leaving no place to go for Darkseid's form to manifest except the lower dimension. So obviously it is something more than what you state.
First of all "precipitates" doesn't mean anything with regards to the ALE's function. Essentially what it means is that when DS acquired the full ALE, New Genesis was forced to go to war with Apokolips, a full scale do-or-die-war. This war proved disastrous and ended the 4th world, nothing more, nothing less.
Instead of arguing with me, try arguing with the other posters who have continually stated that the ALE is only mind-control and get your own interpretations straight with each other. When you guys are done falling over each other trying to argue with me, maybe then you can posture like you've set forth some unified front of solidarity and are "entertaining" me.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Completely baseless statements. Darkseid's mastery of the ALE directly and abruptly caused the war in heaven and his own fall, as stated by Morrison himself. That's all we know. You make it sound like the New Gods entered some preemptive strike against Apokolips. And this war didn't just prove disastrous for the Fourth World. It completely and utterly destroys it, leaving no place to go for Darkseid's form to manifest except the lower dimension. So obviously it is something more than what you state.Instead of arguing with me, try arguing with the other posters who have continually stated that the ALE is only mind-control and get your own interpretations straight with each other. When you guys are done falling over each other trying to argue with me, maybe then you can posture like you've set forth some unified front of solidarity and are "entertaining" me.
The ALE is inert without someone actively wielding it, so obviously the war was ignited by the parties involved because of who was in possession of it. "Precipitate" only serves to point out that a full scale war broke out abruptly, immediately after DS had mastered the ALE.
The article states that this war devastated the 4th world, it never says the ALE devastated it, but the war
We also get a glimpse of how DS fought this war, as he states that Orion was destined to die in "final" battle, splintlered like light through a prism in an infinite number of deaths.
And he kills him at the moment where time coalesces into one time, at a moment where Orion no longer exists, with a gun that shoots backwards in time. The whole event was like a time paradox.
Not to mention motherbox protects the New Gods from the ALE.
^ No. I've pointed out a dozen times that precipitate doesn't simply mean precede. It means to abruptly cause or bring about.
The article states that DS' mastery of the ALE precipitated the war in heaven and his subsequent fall.
Anything else you said is stating the obvious and does nothing to rebut any of my assertions. In fact, this has been happening a lot where you or kevdude start bringing up completely random things about Final Crisis that have nothing to do with the immediate conversation. Yet you present them as if they are rebuttals to some imaginary point I made. Orion gets killed by bullet? So what? Also, IIRC, Motherboxxx never protected anyone from the ALE's stripping of free will.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ No. I've pointed out a dozen times that precipitate doesn't simply mean precede. It means to abruptly cause or bring about.The article states that DS' mastery of the ALE precipitated the war in heaven and his subsequent fall.
Anything else you said is stating the obvious and does nothing to rebut any of my assertions. In fact, this has been happening a lot where you or kevdude start bringing up completely random things about Final Crisis that have nothing to do with the immediate conversation. Yet you present them as if they are rebuttals to some imaginary point I made. Orion gets killed by bullet? So what? Also, IIRC, Motherboxxx never protected anyone from the ALE's stripping of free will.
I don't see what you 2 are arguing about, we all know the war happened before he fell.. Anyway again when I (and from what I've seen Comicfan say, but well have to ask him himself) mind control I meant it as removing free will and making them Darkseid, others have used it before it was said online and it did not crack space time, maybe I should have said that but at least I admit it. You read 1 page and take it as the whole FC story revolves around it, read the whole thing. I agree with you on some things One. The whole point tho is when Morrison stated himself that DS fell into the black hole and down to the Multiverse breaking things along the way.. What more do you want? 🙂
When are you guys going to give it up. The evidence is on our side and not yours. YOu guys even admitted DS couldn't have just stood there and waved his hand and time and space cracking and folding and cause a sigularity. Those were all things outside of his control and powerset and were possible only with the ALE. He could have never just done what happened in FC on his own with his own powerset that is made clear in FC. What's is also clear and stated on panel numerous times is the ALE is a powerup of sorts. If others have used it for their purposes that means it's a power-up DS and DS alone to use. Give it up guys. FC spoke more to me about DS importance and in a way his power. However, lets not act like he couldn't done any of this without the war, falling, ALE. PERIOD
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ No. I've pointed out a dozen times that precipitate doesn't simply mean precede. It means to abruptly cause or bring about.The article states that DS' mastery of the ALE precipitated the war in heaven and his subsequent fall.
Anything else you said is stating the obvious and does nothing to rebut any of my assertions. In fact, this has been happening a lot where you or kevdude start bringing up completely random things about Final Crisis that have nothing to do with the immediate conversation. Yet you present them as if they are rebuttals to some imaginary point I made. Orion gets killed by bullet? So what? Also, IIRC, Motherboxxx never protected anyone from the ALE's stripping of free will.
Precipitated means the war was brought about abruptly upon DS' mastery of the ALE. Also in FC (and other stories) motherbox protects the new gods from the ALE - its an idea that originated with Kirby.
DS' fall was caused by the destruction of the 4th world (heaven) by that war not the ALE itself, the war (the fighting) destroyed their universe not the equation.
Originally posted by TricksterPriestWhat do you want to know about Libra? Metron and Shilo's status as the Source's avatar of life and freedom helped protect Shilo Norman in Seven Soldiers. Motherboxxx never counters any effects of the ALE to my recollection in either Seven Soldiers or Final Crisis. It wouldn't surprise me that she could, I just don't remember it happening.
I see your arguement, and raise you this.If the New Gods are not multiversal, then explain Libra. Motherboxx helped protect Shilo Norman. 7 Soldiers.
I don't remember ever engaging in a debate about whether the New Gods are multiversal or not. You're talking to others about that. It's a misplaced inquiry imo. They exist in a higher vibratory plane of existence. Whether that's multiversal, like Living Tribunal or Spectre are multiversal, is wholly irrelevant. What's relevant is whether DS w/o the ALE could do everything he did in Final Crisis. Considering he searched for the ALE his entire career, finally mastered the ALE and that single event started the sh1tstorm that was Final Crisis, you've already got an uphill battle to climb because DS is never without the ALE throughout all of Final Crisis. Considering that the ALE on it's own also performs things completely independent of DS' own exertion of power, you've got an obstacle none of you have gotten past except by claiming ignorance.
Now answer this: If the New Gods are Multiversal in their true form and can cause such great damage simply by manifesting in a lower dimension, why didn't Orion's manifesting cause any damage? Orion's true body manifested in a pile of garbage on Earth-0. Any massive upheaval in the multiversal structure there? No. What's an obvious difference that could explain the clear disparity between their respective effects on the lower dimension?
DS mastered the ALE, which makes him master of all existence, such that existence becomes him. And DS himself is distorted, evil and contains a singularity in his heart. His mastery of the ALE forces existence to conform to that. That forcible conforming manifests itself as time and space breaking down and collapsing into a singularity at the base of all existence, Earth-0. Since it's Earth-0, it causes a correlative effect across all parallel universes, the entire multiverse, hence multiverse collapses. That's what happens. And it's all predicated on mastery of the ALE making you master of all existence, such that existence becomes you.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
What do you want to know about Libra? Metron and Shilo's status as the Source's avatar of life and freedom helped protect Shilo Norman in Seven Soldiers. Motherboxxx never counters any effects of the ALE to my recollection in either Seven Soldiers or Final Crisis. It wouldn't surprise me that she could, I just don't remember it happening.I don't remember ever engaging in a debate about whether the New Gods are multiversal or not. You're talking to others about that. It's a misplaced inquiry imo. They exist in a higher vibratory plane of existence. Whether that's multiversal, like Living Tribunal or Spectre are multiversal, is wholly irrelevant. What's relevant is whether DS w/o the ALE could do everything he did in Final Crisis. Considering he searched for the ALE his entire career, finally mastered the ALE and that single event started the sh1tstorm that was Final Crisis, you've already got an uphill battle to climb because DS is never without the ALE throughout all of Final Crisis. Considering that the ALE on it's own also performs things completely independent of DS' own exertion of power, you've got an obstacle none of you have gotten past except by claiming ignorance.
Now answer this: If the New Gods are Multiversal in their true form and can cause such great damage simply by manifesting in a lower dimension, why didn't Orion's manifesting cause any damage? Orion's true body manifested in a pile of garbage on Earth-0. Any massive upheaval in the multiversal structure there? No. What's an obvious difference that could explain the clear disparity between their respective effects on the lower dimension?
DS mastered the ALE, which makes him master of all existence, such that existence becomes him. And DS himself is distorted, evil and contains a singularity in his heart. His mastery of the ALE forces existence to conform to that. That forcible conforming manifests itself as time and space breaking down and collapsing into a singularity at the base of all existence, Earth-0. Since it's Earth-0, it causes a correlative effect across all parallel universes, the entire multiverse, hence multiverse collapses. That's what happens. And it's all predicated on mastery of the ALE making you master of all existence, such that existence becomes you.
Originally posted by fangirl101Whatever labels you use to equivocate between them manifesting doesn't matter. Darkseid manifested in the lower dimension. Orion manifested in the lower dimension. Darkseid created a multiversal upheaval. Orion did not. The obvious difference to explain the clear disparity between their respective effects? Mastery of ALE which makes you master of all existence, such that all existence literally becomes you. Very simple.
Neither Orion nor Orion manifested in their True form in FC. They weren't Giants. Orion was all energy and DS used a human host. Where di you get that they manifested in their True forms on earth? As a matter of fact the Gods complained about their weak host bodies.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Whatever labels you use to equivocate between them manifesting doesn't matter. Darkseid manifested in the lower dimension. Orion manifested in the lower dimension. Darkseid created a multiversal upheaval. Orion did not. The obvious difference to explain the clear disparity between their respective effects? Mastery of ALE which makes you master of all existence, such that all existence literally becomes you. Very simple.
^ What storyline are you referring to?
Originally posted by TricksterPriestIt's possible, but with all the evidence that supports the ALE giving DS the actual means to distort reality into his own image, it's not probable.
So you refuse to even consider the idea of Darkseid's full manifestation in a lower realm as the reason for space time's collapse?Orion was here in boomtubed form, that's the difference.
When did he boomtube in? Speculation?
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
It's possible, but with all the evidence that supports the ALE giving DS the actual means to distort reality into his own image, it's not a probable.When did he boomtube in? Speculation?