Originally posted by kevdudeDarkseid manifested and he wasn't bigger than Earth. Your theory is shot. Either way, the boom-tube theory is pure speculation. We never see Orion arriving via boom-tube. It's much more probable that he fell just like Darkseid did when the Fourth World was destroyed.
Again it is the only thing that makes sense that he would have been Boom-tubed, if he was not he would have been bigger then Earth.. Heck the other evil New Gods never manifested either just DS.. Darkseid shot the Radion bullet backwards through time to kill Orion before Darkseid himself died (while still in the Fourth World). He then was dumped on Earth to die.
Your theory that a New God manifesting = multiversal upheaval is controverted by the fact that Orion manifests and no multiversal upheaval is caused. Therefore, there must be a reason why Darkseid's manifesting caused such an upheaval. Obvious answer: ALE which makes all existence you.
Originally posted by kevdudeNo. I disagree, the panels make this clear: Spectre spoke the ALE specifically. Cain did not use the ALE to enslave Spectre, then subsequently command him to use the Spectreforce to unmake creation. Cain used the Spear of Destiny to enslave Spectre and forced him to speak the ALE. It is the speaking of the ALE that unmade creation. Why would it have such an effect? Because Spectre is like the biggest loudspeaker you could find. Even bigger than the intarnetz.
About The Spectre unmaking creation with the ALE, that is untrue, The Spectre himself did it with his own power, the ALE was used to erase the Life Equation from the Multiverse the gift of free will from God.. The Spectre then erased the ALE from creation and gave back Gods gift of free will.
The very next splash page shows the direct result of Spectre speaking the ALE: more people are infected, lightning crashes from the skies and fires of destruction start blowing up all over the place. Creation and free will are unequivocally two separate things. Cain forced Spectre to unmake creation and rebuild the world in Darkseid's same specifically by forcing him to speak the ALE. Spectre may have restored the damage with his own power, but he caused the damage with the ALE. Furthermore, Spectre never erased the ALE from creation. He only reversed the effects he himself had wrought when he spoke the ALE. The events of Final Crisis: Revelations occur somewhere between issues #3 and #6 of Final Crisis itself. The fight was still going on.
Originally posted by kevdudeSee above. Spectre only reversed the destruction he himself had wrought when speaking the ALE. The fight against Darkseid was still going strong even after Spectre reversed his damage. Renee Montoya had not met with Checkmate yet for the initiation of the Black Gambit protocol. Even moreso, the assault on Bludhaven hadn't even started by that point. That is clear because Supergirl is still in the Fortress of Solitude awaiting Alan Scott's orders to assault Bludhaven.
Again you are wrong about the MM fixing the Multiverse and repairing creation with the Life Equation, the Spectre did that and the GL Corps/Supermen of M reestablished the Symmetry of the Orrery (Multiverse) as Nix said. We see them pulling Earth back into its symmetry which Darkseid used to drag it down with him collapsing the Multiverse.
The Miracle Machine restored the Multiverse. All the deus ex machina-style events that occur after Superman made his wish for a happy ending are a direct result of the Miracle Machine.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Darkseid manifested and he wasn't bigger than Earth. Your theory is shot. Either way, the boom-tube theory is pure speculation. We never see Orion arriving via boom-tube. It's much more probable that he fell just like Darkseid did when the Fourth World was destroyed.Your theory that a New God manifesting = multiversal upheaval is controverted by the fact that Orion manifests and no multiversal upheaval is caused. Therefore, there must be a reason why Darkseid's manifesting caused such an upheaval. Obvious answer: ALE which makes all existence you.
No. I disagree, the panels make this clear: Spectre spoke the ALE specifically. Cain did not use the ALE to enslave Spectre, then subsequently command him to use the Spectreforce to unmake creation. Cain used the Spear of Destiny to enslave Spectre and forced him to speak the ALE. It is the speaking of the ALE that unmade creation. Why would it have such an effect? Because Spectre is like the biggest loudspeaker you could find. Even bigger than the intarnetz.The very next splash page shows the direct result of Spectre speaking the ALE: more people are infected, lightning crashes from the skies and fires of destruction start blowing up all over the place. Creation and free will are unequivocally two separate things. Cain forced Spectre to unmake creation and rebuild the world in Darkseid's same specifically by forcing him to speak the ALE. Spectre may have restored the damage with his own power, but he caused the damage with the ALE. Furthermore, Spectre never erased the ALE from creation. He only reversed the effects he himself had wrought when he spoke the ALE. The events of Final Crisis: Revelations occur somewhere between issues #3 and #6 of Final Crisis itself. The fight was still going on.
See above. Spectre only reversed the destruction he himself had wrought when speaking the ALE. The fight against Darkseid was still going strong even after Spectre reversed his damage. Renee Montoya had not met with Checkmate yet for the initiation of the Black Gambit protocol. Even moreso, the assault on Bludhaven hadn't even started by that point. That is clear because Supergirl is still in the Fortress of Solitude awaiting Alan Scott's orders to assault Bludhaven.The Miracle Machine restored the Multiverse. All the deus ex machina-style events that occur after Superman made his wish for a happy ending are a direct result of the Miracle Machine.
I don't think we are arguing about the Spectre using the ALE and replacing the LE with the ALE replacing Gods name with Darkseids, The Spectre was chosen because he was the only 1 who could have broad casted it to nearly everyone else in creation, his power spreads it out, if he said it normally and nobody could hear him it would have fallen on deaf ears and nothing happen, why Cain said "louder" comes in. The MM bottled the Multiverse up for protection against Mandrakk, fixing the crack Darkseid caused when Nix said "The damage caused to the Orrery of Worlds by Darkseid's Fall is under repair." I agree that the Spectre must have only repaired the damage he caused and not everyone seeing as Darkseid was still there and his influence was still so great, though that is not whats shown in FC Revelations.. The MM restoring the Multiverse is a theory as we know it was for 1 wish, we can clearly see the group I said fix the symmetry, the MM seems to have fixed the crack is what I gather.
Originally posted by kevdudeWe do disagree on the purpose behind Spectre speaking the ALE; either unmaking creation (the world itself) or enslaving people (taking away God's gift of freedom). Creation and free will are definitely two distinct concepts. I think the ALE affects both, you think it only affects the latter. I point to two things that support my interpretation: (i) Cain orders Spectre specifically to "Unmake creation and rebuild the world in Darkseid's name..." (ii) This is followed by people being enslaved, but also lightning crashing around, flames blowing up around Earth-0, etc.
I don't think we are arguing about the Spectre using the ALE and replacing the LE with the ALE replacing Gods name with Darkseids, The Spectre was chosen because he was the only 1 who could have broad casted it to nearly everyone else in creation, his power spreads it out, if he said it normally and nobody could hear him it would have fallen on deaf ears and nothing happen, why Cain said "louder" comes in. The MM bottled the Multiverse up for protection against Mandrakk, fixing the crack Darkseid caused when Nix said "The damage caused to the Orrery of Worlds by Darkseid's Fall is under repair." I agree that the Spectre must have only repaired the damage he caused and not everyone seeing as Darkseid was still there and his influence was still so great, though that is not whats shown in FC Revelations.. The MM restoring the Multiverse is a theory as we know it was for 1 wish, we can clearly see the group I said fix the symmetry, the MM seems to have fixed the crack is what I gather.
As for the Miracle Machine, I do not believe it ever bottled the universe, thus protecting it from Mandrakk. When Superman was building the Miracle Machine, Superman wasn't even aware that Mandrakk was coming back. He was just trying to fix the damage caused by Darkseid. How could he plan to use it to protect it from Mandrakk? There are too many things that miraculously occur after Superman makes his wish: 1) Nix Uotan is summoned; 2) the New Gods reincarnate; 3) the multiverse is repaired; 4) Batman survives; and 5) Nix manifests in human form. A happy ending to undo all that Darkseid wrought when he mastered the ALE.
Now I know you mentioned that the Miracle Machine also fixed the crack. If it did, don't you think that occurrence only supports my interpretation that the LE has a much wider scope than simply restoring free will? And isn't it only logical that the ALE mirrors it's polar opposite and has a much wider scope than simply stripping free will?
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
We do disagree on the purpose behind Spectre speaking the ALE; either unmaking creation (the world itself) or enslaving people (taking away God's gift of freedom). Creation and free will are definitely two distinct concepts. I think the ALE affects both, you think it only affects the latter. I point to two things that support my interpretation: (i) Cain orders Spectre specifically to "Unmake creation and rebuild the world in Darkseid's name..." (ii) This is followed by people being enslaved, but also lightning crashing around, flames blowing up around Earth-0, etc.As for the Miracle Machine, I do not believe it ever bottled the universe, thus protecting it from Mandrakk. When Superman was building the Miracle Machine, Superman wasn't even aware that Mandrakk was coming back. He was just trying to fix the damage caused by Darkseid. How could he plan to use it to protect it from Mandrakk? There are too many things that miraculously occur after Superman makes his wish: 1) Nix Uotan is summoned; 2) the New Gods reincarnate; 3) the multiverse is repaired; 4) Batman survives; and 5) Nix manifests in human form. A happy ending to undo all that Darkseid wrought when he mastered the ALE.
Now I know you mentioned that the Miracle Machine also fixed the crack. If it did, don't you think that occurrence only supports my interpretation that the LE has a much wider scope than simply restoring free will? And isn't it only logical that the ALE mirrors it's polar opposite and has a much wider scope than simply stripping free will?
When they talk about unmaking creation they are not talking about the world itself, creation is human beings and in human beings is the Life Equation, the world was never unmade and remade. Darkseid took away the LE a gift that The Source/God gave to creation, the ALE takes it away and proves there is no such thing as free will and we all do as The Source wants.
The Miracle Machine is a weapon, while John is talking with the others they say "Superman found a way to shrink and bottle the whole universe for protection". Protection from any other threats, I was using Mandrakk as a example, Darkseid even says its a poorly put together Mother box. The MM calculates the LE which was used to repair the crack that which Darkseid caused proving the ALE was correct as he was in a lower plan of existence.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
No. I disagree, the panels make this clear: Spectre spoke the ALE specifically. Cain did not use the ALE to enslave Spectre, then subsequently command him to use the Spectreforce to unmake creation. Cain used the Spear of Destiny to enslave Spectre and forced him to speak the ALE.
The hostless spectre is an engine as you said, he's a major loudspeaker, the equation itself is inert without the projection of power from the spectre(in that instance), spreading the ALE across Earth to enslave more for DS. That incident supports what I've shown here.
The ALE is the antithesis of God's theory on life, its not a power up. The spectre incident proves this, it doesn't disprove it.
Spectre was spreading anti-life i.e. unmaking God's creation by erasing his divine spark (free will).
"And know that the blood of the spear will unmake the Old God and make slaves of his children mortal and spectre alike."
Here we see Lilith's prediction (from the crime bible) about Darkseid, Cain and the spear of destiny. Creation was sentient life, Cain via the Spectre was remaking sentient life (creation) for a new god (DS).
Remember also to seperate this from the main FC as what was happening with the ALE victims and the singularity are seperate.
Originally posted by kevdude
When they talk about unmaking creation they are not talking about the world itself, creation is human beings and in human beings is the Life Equation, the world was never unmade and remade. Darkseid took away the LE a gift that The Source/God gave to creation, the ALE takes it away and proves there is no such thing as free will and we all do as The Source wants.The Miracle Machine is a weapon, while John is talking with the others they say "Superman found a way to shrink and bottle the whole universe for protection". Protection from any other threats, I was using Mandrakk as a example, Darkseid even says its a poorly put together Mother box. The MM calculates the LE which was used to repair the crack that which Darkseid caused proving the ALE was correct as he was in a lower plan of existence.
Yes. Odg is thinking in linear terms. The universe was not unmade in any physical fashion. Creation was always about life, the only life with the divine spark (free will) of the Old God, is sentient life.
Unmaking creation involved removing the Old Gods divine spark and replacing it with a New God's anti-life.
By attacking the Spectre, Cain was spiting the Old God. And he makes this clear in Revelations # 4.
Originally posted by kevdudeNo. The very first page of Final Crisis: Revelations #5 makes it clear that creation is separate from human beings:
When they talk about unmaking creation they are not talking about the world itself, creation is human beings and in human beings is the Life Equation, the world was never unmade and remade. Darkseid took away the LE a gift that The Source/God gave to creation, the ALE takes it away and proves there is no such thing as free will and we all do as The Source wants.
Here is where lightning crashes down and destructive flames spout out all over the world in the instant the ALE is spoken:
How can you possibly sit there and suggest that when Cain commands Spectre to "Unmake creation and rebuild the world in Darkseid's name," he is only asking him to enslave people? I already proved creation is different from god's gift of free will:
Are you guys kidding me? 🤨
Originally posted by kevdudeEven if I completely agree with your jaundiced interpretation, if the LE can fix the crack that Darkseid caused, that just goes to prove that the ALE, its polar opposite, caused the crack in the first place. How is this not so blatantly obvious to you? How is it not so god damned obvious when it even lays it out ON-PANEL:
The Miracle Machine is a weapon, while John is talking with the others they say "Superman found a way to shrink and bottle the whole universe for protection". Protection from any other threats, I was using Mandrakk as a example, Darkseid even says its a poorly put together Mother box. The MM calculates the LE which was used to repair the crack that which Darkseid caused proving the ALE was correct as he was in a lower plan of existence.
Originally posted by AllanklesGod's creation is DIFFERENT from free will. I already showed you the scan. Stop acting like it doesn't exist. God created the world and then he bestowed freedom of choice and life. Cain told Spectre to "Unmake creation, rebuild the world in Darkseid's name." For god's sake, he states it plain as day! Not only that, the entire world begins distorting the very next page! What the heck is going on here that you guys could be so impossibly recalcitrant? IT'S ALL ON-PANEL. This is downright trolling that you guys could ignore these scans!
The hostless spectre is an engine as you said, he's a major loudspeaker, the equation itself is inert without the projection of power from the spectre(in that instance), spreading the ALE across Earth to enslave more for DS. That incident supports what I've shown here.The ALE is the antithesis of God's theory on life, its not a power up. The spectre incident proves this, it doesn't disprove it.
Spectre was spreading [B]anti-life
i.e. unmaking God's creation by erasing his divine spark (free will).[/b]
Originally posted by Allankles
Yes. Odg is thinking in linear terms. The universe was not unmade in any physical fashion. Creation was always about life, the only life with the divine spark (free will) of the Old God, is sentient life.Unmaking creation involved removing the Old Gods divine spark and replacing it with a New God's anti-life.
By attacking the Spectre, Cain was spiting the Old God. And he makes this clear in Revelations # 4.
The Universe and Creation are separate things, the scan he shows is talking about Earth being made nothing else. Next page is very clear what Creation is and what the World is, Cris saying "and there is NO Light for God's Creation anymore, no light and no Hope". Earth by itself is not alive like human (creation) and is not sentient to need hope which was removed from Creation(humans) when Darkseid removed the Life Equation (free will). When Crispis takes the Spear he says hes found his place in creation, your interpretation sounds like hes an elemental which he is not. Cris while binding Cain down thinks "in the Entirety of Creation (humans), in the multitude of universes (something else) we are but small things".
Creation and Free will are 2 separate things correct. Cain who serves Darkseid tells the ALE to the Spectre and then who sends it world wide demanding the humans to destroy everything valuable to themselves and give everything to Darkseid and rebuild earth worshipping Darkseid. Why else would they begin posted signs up "die for Darkseid'' "worship DS"?? The first creation was The Word (a being not a planet) when The Voice first opened his mouth, he then created the Universe.
The ALE did cause it in a way but it was Darkseid who smashed through, once it was broad casted worldwide it seems he became powerful enough (through worshippers) to break it... It is not my fault One does not put the pieces together.. 🙂
Originally posted by kevdudeThis sentence proves you utterly wrong.
Cris while binding Cain down thinks "in the Entirety of Creation (humans), in the multitude of universes (something else) we are but small things".
How can you possibly equate the Entirety of Creation to humanity... ?!
We. Are. But. Small. Things.
Compared to what?
Compared to the Entirety of Creation and the multitude of universes. When you compare two things such that one is far lesser than the other, they can't be the same thing. That's not how sentence striucture works. That's not how English works. That's not how you read. What jibberish is this? Why do I have to dumb this down for you?
Creation means creation!!!! It's not some purple prose for humanity or free will! They just laid it out for you in like every single sentence and distinguish them! For anyone to suggest that the Entirety of Creation = Humanity is humanistic idiocy in itself. When Cain commands Spectre, IN ADDITION to telling him to unmake creation, he tells him to rebuild the world in Darkseid's name! Rebuild. The. World.
What? World = humanity now too? Look at the flippin scans! The world starts going all to hell when Spectre speaks the ALE. Looking at the literal, plain meaning of the words presented together with the artwork should be very clear: the ALE does more than enslave free will, it affects existence such that existence becomes you.
The use of the word creation, throughout Final Crisis: Revelations IS NOT equatable to humankind! It's not equatable to free will! It means creation!
OneDumb... these guys won't give up man so what can you do. They won't hear anything that against DS being uber multiversal and causing everything that happened in FC with his own powerset. It goes against what's on panel but they are so desperate to have DS be uber duper powerful even ignoring on panel evidence
More linguistically than in actual semantics, which is typical when OneDumbG0 debates. I don't believe either side has it entirely correct currently[and the people he's posting against don't even seem to have the same views entirely either, just agree on certain points.], but OneDumbG0 always presents his points precise and clear. I just wish he were a bit more of a gentleman when doing it sometimes, like that last post..but I'd be a hypocrit if I didn't acknowledge that I also fall victim to posting like that sometimes.
Originally posted by skyfatheractually he isn't. I could clearly rebuff his wall of text. But who cares. The ALE isn't the infinity guantlet. It cannot be lost. So for better or worse, it is a part of DS powerset. So in the end, it doesn't matter. It's a power up like Death gave thanos one. So everything that was accomplished by DS was his power since the ALE is his power. Period.
ODG is pwning all the Darksied fans here👆
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
This sentence proves you utterly wrong.How can you possibly equate the Entirety of Creation to humanity... ?!
We. Are. But. Small. Things.
Compared to what?
Compared to the Entirety of Creation and the multitude of universes. When you compare two things such that one is far lesser than the other, they can't be the same thing. That's not how sentence striucture works. That's not how English works. That's not how you read. What jibberish is this? Why do I have to dumb this down for you?
Creation means creation!!!! It's not some purple prose for humanity or free will! They just laid it out for you in like every single sentence and distinguish them! For anyone to suggest that the Entirety of Creation = Humanity is humanistic idiocy in itself. When Cain commands Spectre, IN ADDITION to telling him to unmake creation, he tells him to rebuild the world in Darkseid's name! Rebuild. The. World.
What? World = humanity now too? Look at the flippin scans! The world starts going all to hell when Spectre speaks the ALE. Looking at the literal, plain meaning of the words presented together with the artwork should be very clear: the ALE does more than enslave free will, it affects existence such that existence becomes you.
The use of the word creation, throughout Final Crisis: Revelations IS NOT equatable to humankind! It's not equatable to free will! It means creation!
😂 What a waste of time..
