but what if they didn't attack america or britain first? what if the circumstances allowed for them to land on a country (dunno which, can't pinpoint anyone) who would defect and be willing to join them?
as said earlier, they don't know the place. although i'm not dismissing the possibility that if they land on, let's say, america, that they'd be screwed, they might land on some country that would be willing to defect and help.
That idea was brought up before, and the idea was that they'd just be nuked then. One Nuclear warhead would destroy the entire army anyway, and whatever country defected would be seen as an enemy of not just one nation, but the entire world.
The reason why it makes sense for the Imperials to target America or Russia or the UK first is because they possess the most nuclear weapons, and would be less willing to use them on their own soil or allied soil,
it was? my bad - i thought i had finished reading the whole thread.
but either way, do the people on earth in this period know that the empire is hostile? or will the empire go hostile on earth immediately? who knows, maybe they'd go with diplomacy... *shrug* maybe even share the tech and show them how to do stuff and how it all works...
maybe they would just strike some sort of alliance.
although when it comes to war itself, I'm not sure how earth would go about. you guys - both sides have good arguments.
I'd like to read more - I hope someone from the other side would answer. 😄
The countries that do defect to the imperials will probably be small, third world countries that wouldn't really help the imperials that much.
But seriously, some Star Wars tech is actually LESS advanced than modern tech: how come the Star Wars computers look like computers from the 50s (big, bulky with cheesy buttons)?
Originally posted by Final BlaxicanMore. Much, much more.
5,640 mph. Really?That's insane. I read in another article that the force upon impact would be similiar to egtting hit by a minivan moving at Mach 5. That's... hundreds of thousands of poudns of force I'm sure.
That's a little mind-boggling, to be honest.
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
The countries that do defect to the imperials will probably be small, third world countries that wouldn't really help the imperials that much.But seriously, some Star Wars tech is actually LESS advanced than modern tech: how come the Star Wars computers look like computers from the 50s (big, bulky with cheesy buttons)?
because the movie was made decades ago? 😄
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Stormtroopers got knocked out by rocks.So, obviously they could get knocked out by a gun.
It has been proven that this is, by all accords, wrong. They get put on their ass by a rock hitting them on their head. They don't get knocked out. So yes. If a soldier on an open field manages to sneak up to almost melee range to hit them with a shotgun, that might put them on their asses. Then he just has to jump on them. We are not discussing the battle of Endor here.
Their semi automatic blasters are powerful, but a squad of stormtroopers couldn't hit Han at close range. You can't kill what you can't hit.
I could speculate why this happens an the answer will be PIS: Han had to survive, so he did. Or I could point to the words of Obi-Wan Kenobi: Luck doesn't exists, which means that Han survives through intervention of the force. A benefit Earth soldiers wouldn't have.
So, all the Ranger/Green Beret/etc has to do is to hit the stormtrooper once in a solid hit, and the stormtrooper goes down. Sure, the stormtrooper only needs one hit too, but
Again: WRONG. Stormtrooper armor would reduce the impact energy of any bullet that comes flying at them. They won't get hit in the direct sense. Possibly they would get knocked on their asses if there is enough kinetic impact force - but that's it. A Earth soldier being hit by a blaster shot will simply die.
1. he'll be outnumbered (only 500,000 of them)
2. he can't hit some guy at close range
See above.
@Darth Truculent:
Borbarad, Abrams tanks fire uranium depleted rounds that burn through any and I mean any type of armor. The rounds are radioactive. A TOW missile is an anti-tank weapon so yeah, that'd blow straight through virtually any armor including an AT-AT or AT-ST. Modern weaponry isn't contact explosives - they're armor piercing. Say a couple of Walkers are threatening your position - a few Harpoons will take it out.
Apparently, you're missing the point. We aren't talking about modern day Earth armor here. We're talking about material that can survive the monumental stress of flying into a black hole, the heat output of a miniature sun the SW people use to power their ships up and so on. So no...A dumb little anti-tank missle isn't going to archieve anything here.
Special Forces strike hard and fast. They're quick, mobile and a stormtrooper squad would be dead before they knew they were even there. Most of all, they fight mostly at night. I have a friend who is a Ranger and he says that a stormtrooper wouldn't stand a chance. Besides, they can't kill with their hands because they're wearing too much armor!
1) The Special Forces would strike against stormtroopers sitting in the AT-ATs and watch the Special Forces getting obliterated by warmachines they can't even touch.
2) Obviously you should check some of the EU novels again. It might be that regular stormtroopers aren't trained in Melee combat but the Royal Guards, wearing similar armors, are quite capable of melee combat. So is Darth Vader by the way...
Blasters lack ironsights and laser sighting that are standard on the M16 & M4 Carbine. A Blaster also lacks the rate of fire of an M60 or a SAW heavy machine gun. A Blaster sniper rifle can't kill over a mile away that .50 caliber or the Remington 700 (standard sniper rifle - 308) can. Simply put, Earth infantry weapons are far more deadly than anything Star Wars can think of - save the lightsaber.
Lmfao.
Go and get yourself a copy of "A new Hope", Special Edition. Watch Han's shoot-out with the stormtroopers just before the Millenium Falcon lifts off from Tatooine. Han's handhelt blaster-pistol blows rather nice parts of the walls apart.
Blaster rifles can vaporize 0.5 m³ of solid metal with a single shot - which means they can destroy even tanks with their regular guns. That aside they have Thermal Detonators with the low end versions of those weapons able to annihilate several cubic metres of any material while the low end detonators (we're still talking about granate size weapons) are capable of tearing entire buildings apart (seen in SotE when one Thermal Detonator is enough to blow Xizor's palace apart).
And you think that modern day earth weapons are more deadly? ROFL. They clearly lack firepower in comparison to the stuff the Imperials carry around. And you forgot that the Imperials wouldn't be affected much by anything modern Earth military would be able to use against them while having no protection against the stuff the Imperials might use against them.
Marines vs Stormtroopers? Hands down Marines. Even against the 501st, a Marine brigade will emerge victorious. When was the last time the Empire fought urban warfare? The only nation that has the ability to stop a Marine brigade is the Mandos.Sorry, but Earth would be bloodied, but victorious.
Urban Warfare? Why would the Imperials even engage in urban warfair? They would simply level the corresponding city. They'd shoot right through walls and spot enemies everywhere using their advanced scanning technology. That aside from the fact that the Marines would have nothing to touch the assault vessels of the Imperials...
@Blaxican:
I just did some of the math.On Wookiepedia, it states that the Snowspeeder's top attack speed is 374 MPH and its top speed total is 683 MPH.
An F-22's attack speed is 700 MPH and it's top speed total is 1,317 mph
So... yeah. It's twice as fast, has twice as much attack range, and is more heavily armed.
"In testing, an F22 dropped a 1,000 lb (450 kg) JDAM from 50,000 feet (15,000 m), while cruising at Mach 1.5, striking a moving target 24 miles (39 km) away."
AT-AT's will last maybe half an hour at best.
I just can say: ROFL.
An F-22 is more heavily armed than a snowspeeder? Did you miss what I said about the laser weapons that the people in the SW universe mount on their fighters? Apparently you did...
CLICK ME
Let me quote:
"If we assume that the bolt strikes a target for 1/10 second, each cannon directs 600 GW to a target. Since this estimate is conservative, an X-Wing's blaster cannons easily release more energy in 10 seconds than the entire United States produces in electrical power. This is especially impressive when one considers the number of nuclear power plants in operation in the United States."
You were saying? So a single SW universe starfighter unleashes more energy in the form of firepower in ten seconds than the entire USA produce? Given that a snowspeeder only has 50 % of the weapons you can assume 1/2 of that energy output. I'd love to see the F-22 that has more firepower. And I love to see how they would touch an AT-AT given that this amount of firepower doesn't even touch the damn thing.
And because of that, I also said that your "knock them over" plan wouldn't work. We see the snowspeeders firing at the AT-ATs with charged plasma moving close to speed of light (so kinetical and explosive energy beyond anything you could produce with a modern day weapon) and nothing happens. There was a reason why the rebels had to use those cables.
That aside: The F-22s wouldn't even last 5 minutes, given the fact that the Imperials have handhelt concussion missle launchers / photon torpedo launchers.
Finally: You should all get your facts straight and don't try to discuss this topic based on the lower end showings of the Imperial military that spawn from the fact, that the story had to end in a certain way. The Empire conquered thousands of worlds with the very same military forces that look rather stupid in the movies - a fact that is more often than not explained through additional material, which one should check out before attempting to discuss the issue.
So you're saying that 20 stormtroopers lost vs 3 guys isn't valid because "the force intervened?" In that case, AOTC Anakin and Obi Wan only lost to Dooku (aside from Anakin's stupidity) because "the force intervened". And even if the force was making the blasters miss, the stormtroopers NEVER even bothered to re adust their aim even when they know that they're not hitting the target. Also, how far forward tech wise is Star Wars exactly? Because here are some facts:
1. Blasters still have just as much recoil as modern weapons, even though they're supposed to be super advanced (and you'd except it to have some tech that reduces/stops recoil)
2. Blasters have similar, if not lower range than modern weapons.
3. Blasters have a SLOWER rate of fire than modern weapons.
4. Despite being a "super advanced sci fi weapon", blasters don't feature fancy targeting systems or shoot-around-corner abilities that many modern/in development guns already have.
5. Despite being "super advanced sci fi armor", stormtrooper armor doesn't feature fancy exoskeletons (which armor in development plans to implement), navigation/communications systems (other than a comlink, and modern suits have more advanced stuff), life support systems (or at least not that much), etc.
6. Their AT STs get tripped by stone age traps (why do they use walkers? They're really vulnerable) and their lasers seem to have little targeting capability and their range is lower than that of an Abrams.
etc...
AND, there's only 500,000 of them. SERIOUS supply problems, navigation problems (they have no maps or anything) and the fact that they are facing an entire world, some nations with nuclear weapons, etc.
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
So you're saying that 20 stormtroopers lost vs 3 guys isn't valid because "the force intervened?" In that case, AOTC Anakin and Obi Wan only lost to Dooku (aside from Anakin's stupidity) because "the force intervened". And even if the force was making the blasters miss, the stormtroopers NEVER even bothered to re adust their aim even when they know that they're not hitting the target.
I wonder where you have seen 20 Stormtroopers losing against one guy? In most situations where the Stormtroopers face the heroes of the movie, they do so with lack of cover, while getting surprised or there are other circumstances clearly not factoring in for them. Do you really think that ANH Luke Skywalker, Han Solo and Chewbacca could survive if you let them face 20 stormtroopers on an open field that will start fire at the same second they do? I don't think so.
Also, how far forward tech wise is Star Wars exactly? Because here are some facts:1. Blasters still have just as much recoil as modern weapons, even though they're supposed to be super advanced (and you'd except it to have some tech that reduces/stops recoil)
Where did you get that idea from? Given the far greater destructive ability of blaster weapons it's evident that they don't generate as much recoil as modern day weapons. And I've yet to see a blaster generating any considerable recoil. Han holds his weapon (which clearly has some nice destructive ability) easily with his arm extended and fires rather precise shots with a nice rate.
In fact, it has been stated that one can handle a DC-15A on rapid fire at normal power without worrying about the recoil influencing the aim. And this is a heavy blaster rifle.
2. Blasters have similar, if not lower range than modern weapons.
Bullshit. HK-47 in KotoR claims that he has shot "meatbags" from a distance of several kilometers. The standard rifle of the Imperial Stormtroopers (E-11) has an effective range of 300 metres. The DC-15A used by the clonetroopers has an effective range of 10 kilometers at full power. There you go.
3. Blasters have a SLOWER rate of fire than modern weapons.
That obviously depends on the weapon being used. Aside of that: The general rule is that you sacrifice accuracy for higher rate of fire, which isn't much of an advantage when fighting against enemies that armor would not be penetrated by your weapons anyway.
4. Despite being a "super advanced sci fi weapon", blasters don't feature fancy targeting systems or shoot-around-corner abilities that many modern/in development guns already have.
Excuse me. How many general used guns already have such targeting systems or shoot-around-corner abilities? And how would that be an advantage to weapons that can shoot through walls? That aside: E-11 blasters have scopes as well as targeting sensors. Did you somehow miss that?
5. Despite being "super advanced sci fi armor", stormtrooper armor doesn't feature fancy exoskeletons (which armor in development plans to implement), navigation/communications systems (other than a comlink, and modern suits have more advanced stuff), life support systems (or at least not that much), etc.
Somebody should do his f*cking homework.
READ ME
Oh. What's that?
- automatic anti-flash blinding lenses
- holographic vision processors (enabling them to see through smoke, darkness, fire)
- a targeting system
- automatic video recording of everything the stormtrooper sees
- comlink that automatically encrypts the talk
- breathing filters
- air-support (+ heat/cold regulation) allowing stormtroopers to even survive underwater and in outer space for brief time periods.
You were saying?
6. Their AT STs get tripped by stone age traps (why do they use walkers? They're really vulnerable) and their lasers seem to have little targeting capability and their range is lower than that of an Abrams.etc...
Right. You maybe first want to check the effective weapon ranges of SW weapons before opening your mouth again. Then you could spent some seconds with actual thinking. There is a reason why it says "All Terrain" - because those vehicles can climb mountains and find their way over and around obstacles a regular tank wouldn't be able to cross. And of course those things are built to be intimitading.
AND, there's only 500,000 of them. SERIOUS supply problems, navigation problems (they have no maps or anything) and the fact that they are facing an entire world, some nations with nuclear weapons, etc.
Right. Let's make that scenario as biased as possible because of - oh...I don't know. Probably not having an idea about the SW universe?
They can scan entire planets in the matter of seconds, even with their goddamn fighters (as Luke demonstrates in ESB when visiting Dagobah for the first time). So obviously they won't have much navigation problems in a somewhat "realistical" settings, because they would either scan everything before landing or start doing it after having landed.
Supply problems? If you've ever read "Children of the Jedi" you would be aware of the fact that there were stormtroopers surviving on hostile planets for decades with the stuff they usually carried around with them. And I'm talking about planets where they won't stumble across supply sources every few kilometers.
And nuclear weapons? Mentioning them does actually imply that one would drop a nuclear weapon on an invading force in some completely innocent country. I don't think that something like that would happen. And even if that should be the case, they could shot down the missles / aircrafts or Vader could use the force to get rid of the rockets. While this already assuming that a nuclear weapon would be enough to destroy an AT-AT from the outside - which is speculation given the energy unleashed by usual SW vehicle weapons.
So I'm sorry. But even with your extreme biased setup (which is ridiculous), I don't see how the Imperials would not emerge victorious, considering that no army on Earth would be able to take it up with AT-ATs.
Good God Bombarad - my God man you seriously do not know a thing about modern warfare! Do you actually think that grounds troops would run out of a city and surrender? Also you have ICBMs & SLBMS targeting your Star Destroyer.
Why need a thermal detenator when an RPG is far more destructive and has twice the range? Ooops - half a platoon of stormtroopers is either dead or wounded! Can't use a thermal detenator while pinned down. Can't throw it when a Marine is firing a SAW at you or a .50 caliber on a Bradley is hosing the area.
What's the modern tactic of war - kill the commander! Sniper takes him out and the entire platoon or company is disorganized. Oh yeah, a .50 caliber can blow a hole straight through steel armor. They tested it against a friggen Bradley Fighting Vehicle and blew up like a firework!
An Abrams tank without it's speed ristrictor plates can move 55 mph and destroy a target while moving at over 2 km. An AT-AT or AT-ST doesn't have that capability. Slow easy targets and a SABOT or HEAT round will penetrate it's armor. How the hell did Luke then kill an AT-AT with a damn grenade then? Think! And you seriously don't know the true capabilities of an F-22 - stealth technology. I wonder where the StealthX idea came from - F-22 maybe? Don't forget the AMRAAM missile - it's a fire and forget weapon that will kill you up to ranges of 20-30 miles. And it seems to me that you ignore cruise missiles too - interesting.
Royal Guard vs Special Forces. Easily Special Forces. They employ Krav Maga martial arts and can kill in a matter of seconds. You think a SEAL or a Ranger can't choke a guard out or simply break his neck? A modern special forces soldier is far superior to anything the Empire can produce. Consider a SEAL to be a minor league Mando soldier - that's what the Royal Guard would be facing. In a firefight, a stormtrooper would be facing far better trained soldier named the Marine. Nearly forgot too - I don't think the Empire has a M205 which fires a grenade either.
Sorry, but you're wrong again.
NO STAR DESTROYERS/AIR/SPACE SUPPORT FOR EMPIRE (AS SAID IN OPENING POST)
1. But they still have recoil, although I agree it's less than that of today.
2. I'm not a gun expert, but I'm pretty sure that modern guns can exceed 300 meters. And clone trooper equipment is irrelevant in this senerio.
3. but the point is that their guns aren't as fast firing as you'd except several hundreds years into the future guns to be; in just 200 years we went from 3 shots per minute to 1000 shots per minute, and technology tends to increase exponentially.
4. and yet they can't hit some guy right next to them?
5. then how come the stormtroopers couldn't use their high tech stuff to be able to actually (gasp!) hit Han, and to communicate w/each other/inform each other of the Ewok suprise attack? They must not know how to use their equipment.
6. Then why do they get tripped by ropes and almost knocked over by stone age catapults?
Originally posted by Darth Truculent
Good God Bombarad - my God man you seriously do not know a thing about modern warfare! Do you actually think that grounds troops would run out of a city and surrender? Also you have ICBMs & SLBMS targeting your Star Destroyer.
Apparently you still didn't get a freaking idea about the SW technology. Which makes it quite hard for you to come up with a proper argument, considering you don't know what you're talking about. ICBMS and SLBMS targeting a Star Destroyer? Lmao. A Star Destroyer has an acceleration rate of over 3000 G and can reach lightspeed in seconds. Quite useless aiming weapons at that thing that can simply be outrun, right? That aside, a single Star Destroyer could destroy every bit of life on an entire planet in the matter of hours. They wouldn't even need to set a foot on the surface to own Earth.
Why need a thermal detenator when an RPG is far more destructive and has twice the range? Ooops - half a platoon of stormtroopers is either dead or wounded! Can't use a thermal detenator while pinned down. Can't throw it when a Marine is firing a SAW at you or a .50 caliber on a Bradley is hosing the area.
How shoot at them, when they use rifles with an effective range up to 10 kilometres that will take out anything they hit with a single shot? Army leveled before even reaching effective firing range. You could do the same trick with artillary or every ground-troop you can imagine. And 4000 Stormtroopers (at least) can still have a seat in the AT-ATs and watch everything outside getting annihilated without getting touched.
What's the modern tactic of war - kill the commander! Sniper takes him out and the entire platoon or company is disorganized. Oh yeah, a .50 caliber can blow a hole straight through steel armor. They tested it against a friggen Bradley Fighting Vehicle and blew up like a firework!
Lmao. The commander, in this case, is Darth Vader. Let me just point out what that means: You have a guy capable of predicting the future, move with superhuman speed, crush entire platoons of your force with a simple gesture and he's virtually invunerable to an projectile based weapons (armor) and can dodge all "heavy fire" unleashed against him (or outright deflect it). Not to mention that he could, technically, kill all political and military leaders on the goddamn planet while sitting in a freaking cave using the force.
And for christs sake: STOP COMPARING SW ARMOR TO STEEL, TITAN, OR ANYTHING ELSE THAT EXISTS ON EARTH - IT'S NOT COMPAREABLE.
An Abrams tank without it's speed ristrictor plates can move 55 mph and destroy a target while moving at over 2 km. An AT-AT or AT-ST doesn't have that capability. Slow easy targets and a SABOT or HEAT round will penetrate it's armor.
It won't work. Google "Durasteel", read, start crying.
That aside. The AT-ATs move with 60 km/h and are capable of hitting targets flying past them 570 km/h speed. Talk about precisions. And an Abrams would still do shit against AT-AT armor. Accept it.
How the hell did Luke then kill an AT-AT with a damn grenade then? Think!
Because he had a weapon in his hand that CUTS THROUGH EVERYTHING and he used that to cut a hole into the AT-AT and toss the thermal detonator through it. And you just noticed how the thing just starts smoking and doesn't explode, right? So the armor was still intact? Oh...great.
And you seriously don't know the true capabilities of an F-22 - stealth technology. I wonder where the StealthX idea came from - F-22 maybe? Don't forget the AMRAAM missile - it's a fire and forget weapon that will kill you up to ranges of 20-30 miles. And it seems to me that you ignore cruise missiles too - interesting.
Holy mother of god. Get it into your head: The vehicle mounted weapons in the SW universe unleash more power than the entire USA produces. Every single one of them. Got that so far? Now imagine thousands of that being pointed at an army. No joke. A single shot from an AT-ATs main cannon tore a several story building apart. I don't want to imagine what it would do to an army of soldiers. The F-22 still doesn't have anything that could touch AT-AT armor. It's really that easy. They should at the things with the firepower mentioned multiple times now (again: Higher energy output in ten seconds than the entire USA produce in the same amount of time) and don't even scratch them.
So please: You can fling cruise missles as them, AMRAAM missles, heavy attilary and so on and so forth. It won't touch them. Why? Because they are crafted out of an material that isn't affected too much by physical force or heat. Which makes about every weapon pretty useless against it.
Royal Guard vs Special Forces. Easily Special Forces. They employ Krav Maga martial arts and can kill in a matter of seconds. You think a SEAL or a Ranger can't choke a guard out or simply break his neck? A modern special forces soldier is far superior to anything the Empire can produce. Consider a SEAL to be a minor league Mando soldier - that's what the Royal Guard would be facing. In a firefight, a stormtrooper would be facing far better trained soldier named the Marine. Nearly forgot too - I don't think the Empire has a M205 which fires a grenade either.
🙄
Since today seems to be the hayday of ridiculous arguments: "The Empire has Darth Vader. Nuff said..."