What if the Empire invaded modern day earth?

"when they use rifles with an effective range up to 10 kilometres that will take out anything they hit with a single shot"

This is the EMPIRE w/stormtroopers not clonetroopers. D15's weren't used by the empire!!!!

And STAR DESTROYERS AREN'T ALLOWED!!!! I specified that clearly on the first post. w/space navy, this would be a ridiculous spite.

And Vader's power is insignificant in the grand sceme of things: Vader can take AT MOST 100 men, so having Vader (in terms of sheer battle power/not command prowess) is like having +100 men, which is porportionally insignificant.

Windu can take out a lot more than 100 men, and Vader is stronger with the force. Vader can take out a lot more than that.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Windu can take out a lot more than 100 men, and Vader is stronger with the force. Vader can take out a lot more than that.

Even if he can take out 1000, that still means just +1000 men on top of 500,000. Again, proportionally insignificant.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
1. But they still have recoil, although I agree it's less than that of today.

How is that relevant if it's so little recoil that it doesn't affect the aiming at all?

2. I'm not a gun expert, but I'm pretty sure that modern guns can exceed 300 meters. And clone trooper equipment is irrelevant in this senerio.

We're talking about regular small fire arms. The upper limit of range is 10 kilometers.

3. but the point is that their guns aren't as fast firing as you'd except several hundreds years into the future guns to be; in just 200 years we went from 3 shots per minute to 1000 shots per minute, and technology tends to increase exponentially.

Good god. You should actually think about the intention behind the design of a weapon. They don't need fast firing weapons because their weapon will simply kill anything with a single shot and have destructive abilities capable of ripping tanks apart when hitting them. Really. You won't find a hand-helt weapon with similar destructive abilities and a greater firing rate.

Not to mention that they have guns that have quite nice fire rates (play Dark Forces or the other games featuring Kyle Katarn).

4. and yet they can't hit some guy right next to them?

They can't hit the protagonists standing right next to them. Watch the opening scene of "Episode IV" where the Stormtroopers enter the Rebel ship. They wipe out the repel soldiers with acceptable casualities in the matter of seconds, despite of the fact that they had to move through a small opening when the Rebel Soldiers all had covered positions. Apparently, they can be rather good when not having to deal with characters that are not allowed to die.

5. then how come the stormtroopers couldn't use their high tech stuff to be able to actually (gasp!) hit Han, and to communicate w/each other/inform each other of the Ewok suprise attack? They must not know how to use their equipment.

See above. It's because the story had to develop as it did. Plot Induced Stupidity - PIS. We ignore that in terms of VS fights here.

6. Then why do they get tripped by ropes and almost knocked over by stone age catapults?

See above again. It happens, because the plot has to end in a certain manner. Under realistical circumstances, stuff like that simply won't happen.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
This is the EMPIRE w/stormtroopers not clonetroopers. D15's weren't used by the empire!!!!

The Empire uses similar weapons, which is obvious if you would have a look at the troopers running around on Tatooine at the beginning of ANH.

And STAR DESTROYERS AREN'T ALLOWED!!!! I specified that clearly on the first post. w/space navy, this would be a ridiculous spite.

I was simply replying to him.

And Vader's power is insignificant in the grand sceme of things: Vader can take AT MOST 100 men, so having Vader (in terms of sheer battle power/not command prowess) is like having +100 men, which is porportionally insignificant.

This is by all account stupid. Vader could easily redirect incoming missles / projectiles and even nuclear weapons. If not that he could toss tank and troops across the battlefield with his telekinesis. So, virtually, Vader could personally cause death of thousands or even millions of enemies using his abilities correctly. And even if he would just walk over the battlefield. How the hell do you want to kill him? Exar Kun in the DLotS comics walks over a battlefield "unharmed by shrapnel and fire" without even paying much attention to the surrounding chaos. Freedon Nadd apparently singlehandly stopped an army of beast riders attempting to conquer Onderon.

Those Dark Lord of the Sith can cause some major trouble in combat. Even if they have to rely on their own abilities and are heavily outnumbered.

Vader could easily redirect incoming missles / projectiles and even nuclear weapons.

Then of course, we take into account that there are several thousand nuclear bombs available to humans, and I see the Imperials getting wiped off the map. The idea that America or Russia would refuse to launch attacks on their own soil in the face of what would otherwise be defeat and subjugation at the hands of the aggressors is a tad ridiculous; collateral damage could easily be minimized by simply stopping the Imperials before they could kill "millions," as you said Vader alone could do.

That said, the thread starter needs to provide way more details. Troop organization, awareness level of Earthlings, etc. It's not enough to just list combatants here, you need to provide a scenario.

So whenever the stormtroopers lose, it's because of PIS? In that case, the stormtroopers get pwned by us earthlings because we have to survive by god's will, and the stormtroopers are so wise that they realize that and magically become stupid.

In other words, using PIS as an excuse to when ever stormtroopers get pwned is a little bit absurd. The AT ST also almost got knocked over by a catapult, and aparently that scene was intended to show off the empire and have them walk all over the ewoks, and yet the catapult still makes it stumble. That's clearly not PIS because the scene didn't have any significant impact on the story (but that doesn't make it any less credible).

Originally posted by Eminence

That said, the thread starter needs to provide way more details. Troop organization, awareness level of Earthlings, etc. It's not enough to just list combatants here, you need to provide a scenario.

OK:

the troops are well organized, but know very little about the earth (why they didn't scan it in space? IDK)

Humans instantly are aware of the imperials and the threat they pose. And they also know about their strengths and weaknesses, given that at least one of the leaders had read/seen Star Wars.

Imperials are dropped off in the middle of Mexico.

Troops have a large supply of food/fuel/etc. enough to last them a journey from USA to South America

Troops get 50 AA guns, no more.

No air/space support at all.

people factor: i don't think that people here on earth would just randomly nuke them without consdering the threat of the nukes to the earth's environment itself. think of all the political protests, procedures, etc.

oh, and the leader: how much of star wars does he know? i mean, i'm a fan, but half of what you guys type here i don't know about... so how much knowledge of SW would the leader have?

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
troops seem to be more accurate...

we're well and truly ****ed...

Originally posted by Eminence
[B]Yoda struggled to redirect a two-hundred kilogram missile in DR. A nuclear bomb weighs... a lot more than two hundred kilograms, and will probably be moving at somewhat comparable speeds.

You aren't talking about the missle that was launched from the orbit directed at the ground? The fun stuff about Nuclear Missles that would be fired on Earth to hit another spot on the Earth is that they would fly in a ballistic course and not straigth down from the orbit to the AT-ATs.

And where did Yoda struggle with that thing?

Assuming Vader actually knows there's one coming - which is arguably unlikely considering he'd be protecting himself from infantry fire, artillery, and aircraft strikes - a nuclear bomb will completely annihilate everything within a several-mile range [depending on the bomb] and cause significant damage even further out.

I'd love to see your proof for a nuclear bomb being able to destroy durasteel. Pretty unlikely, if you ask me, considering that weapons with a higher total energy output with the energy being directed to one spot fail to do the job.

Then of course, we take into account that there are several thousand nuclear bombs available to humans, and I see the Imperials getting wiped off the map. The idea that America or Russia would refuse to launch attacks on their own soil in the face of what would otherwise be defeat and subjugation at the hands of the aggressors is a tad ridiculous; collateral damage could easily be minimized by simply stopping the Imperials before they could kill "millions," as you said Vader alone could do.

They would at first spot a relative small army (compared to their own forces) and attack it via conventional means. Which might already be enough. I mean what: Vader looks at a TV, sees the President of the USA or Russia and force chockes him to death - or even better: He waves his hand, says "You won't use your military against us and will surrender while letting us assume control over your country", just to listen to his words being repeated by the force controlled puppet the leader has become. Think about Exar Kun dealing with the Republic's Chancellor.

@Hewhoknowsnothing:

OK:

the troops are well organized, but know very little about the earth (why they didn't scan it in space? IDK)

Irrelevant. They have scanners on the ground vessels. Or do you want to tell us that they aren't allowed to use them either, because you really don't want to lose this "debate"?

Humans instantly are aware of the imperials and the threat they pose. And they also know about their strengths and weaknesses, given that at least one of the leaders had read/seen Star Wars.

They have no weaknesses that could be exploited via means available to humans. And for god's sake. Why don't you equip humanity with more advantages and limit the Imperials further - if you want to turn a battle into a farce, do it correctly.

Troops have a large supply of food/fuel/etc. enough to last them a journey from USA to South America

They don't need fuel and they can steal food everywhere.

Troops get 50 AA guns, no more.

AA guns? What does qualify as anti-aircraft weapon according to your point of view?

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
OK:

the troops are well organized, but know very little about the earth (why they didn't scan it in space? IDK)

Humans instantly are aware of the imperials and the threat they pose. And they also know about their strengths and weaknesses, given that at least one of the leaders had read/seen Star Wars.

Imperials are dropped off in the middle of Mexico.

Troops have a large supply of food/fuel/etc. enough to last them a journey from USA to South America

Troops get 50 AA guns, no more.

No air/space support at all.

First, if Star Wars exists as a fictional universe on Earth, why would it now be real? People would freak out less at the Second Coming.

Even so, are all the military's on Earth fully mobilized at the very instant the Imperials start attacking? If that's the case, f*ck it--we're nuking Mexico.

Are all 500,000 stormtroopers the standard trooper we see all the time, or are there divisions---snipers, heavy weapons, demolitions, engineers etc. Battlefront-style?

WHICH troops have a large supply of food, WHICH troops get no air support etc? By the way, a "large supply" of food/fuel etc will get the Imperials much further than across just one continent.

Will the human psyche play a role in this scenario, or are we going to be operating under the assumption that, like robots, we're all fighting to the death?

And expanding on my first problem, why the hell does Earth have such an intricate knowledge of Star Wars but the invaders have squat on us? This makes it sound like your purposefully engineering the Empire to fail---which incidentally is what you've been gunning for this whole time.

Sorry...did forget that one:

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
So whenever the stormtroopers lose, it's because of PIS? In that case, the stormtroopers get pwned by us earthlings because we have to survive by god's will, and the stormtroopers are so wise that they realize that and magically become stupid.

No. In some situations they get defeated in a "likely" fashion. One should be able to tell the diffrence between realistical approach to a scene and absurd storytelling. When Han Solo runs into a room filled with Storm Troopers (literally hundrets) and manages to run away, one should be able to spot that this is so absurd that you won't see it happening under any normal circumstances.

In other words, using PIS as an excuse to when ever stormtroopers get pwned is a little bit absurd. The AT ST also almost got knocked over by a catapult, and aparently that scene was intended to show off the empire and have them walk all over the ewoks, and yet the catapult still makes it stumble. That's clearly not PIS because the scene didn't have any significant impact on the story (but that doesn't make it any less credible).

In the opening sequence of RotS you can see a kitchen sink flying through space...Lucas simply has a strange kind of humor. As I said before: If something like that would happen on a daily basis, the Imperial forces would find it rather hard to rule an entire Galaxy, right?

Seriously, a kitchen sink? I have to go find that now.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
That still isn't very detailed.

First, if Star Wars exists as a fictional universe on Earth, why would it now be real? People would freak out less at the Second Coming.

Even so, are all the military's on Earth fully mobilized at the very instant the Imperials start attacking? If that's the case, f*ck it--we're nuking Mexico.

Are all 500,000 stormtroopers the standard trooper we see all the time, or are there divisions---snipers, heavy weapons, demolitions, engineers etc. Battlefront-style?

WHICH troops have a large supply of food, WHICH troops get no air support etc? By the way, a "large supply" of food/fuel etc will get the Imperials much further than across just one continent.

Will the human psyche play a role in this scenario, or are we going to be operating under the assumption that, like robots, we're all fighting to the death?

And expanding on my first problem, why the hell does Earth have such an intricate knowledge of Star Wars but the invaders have squat on us? This makes it sound like your purposefully engineering the Empire to fail---which incidentally is what you've been gunning for this whole time.

Who knows? It's just a hypothetical battle, like everything in this forum.

All nations are at the same state that they are now, so no.

Yes, but no super divisions/dark troopers.

All troops have equal food, 100% NO air/space support

Yes, but they don't instantly surrender by seeing the empire, so partially

OK then, they have SOME knowledge of the earth, but don't know every city and street number.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Sorry...did forget that one:

No. In some situations they get defeated in a "likely" fashion. One should be able to tell the diffrence between realistical approach to a scene and absurd storytelling. When Han Solo runs into a room filled with Storm Troopers (literally hundrets) and manages to run away, one should be able to spot that this is so absurd that you won't see it happening under any normal circumstances.

In the opening sequence of RotS you can see a kitchen sink flying through space...Lucas simply has a strange kind of humor. As I said before: If something like that would happen on a daily basis, the Imperial forces would find it rather hard to rule an entire Galaxy, right?

The stormtroopers beating the rebels in that scene could just be PIS cause the stormies have to win in order for R2D2 to go to tatooine and the rescue Leia thing.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Who knows? It's just a hypothetical battle, like everything in this forum.

All nations are at the same state that they are now, so no.

Yes, but no super divisions/dark troopers.

All troops have equal food, 100% NO air/space support

Yes, but they don't instantly surrender by seeing the empire, so partially

OK then, they have SOME knowledge of the earth, but don't know every city and street number.

No nation will attack land so close to the U.S without the U.S. doing it first. And the U.S. will never resort to DEFCON 1 without believing there's no hope (even then, Jesus Obama won't obliterate his people simply because they're conquered). Which means they're entire military capacity has been nullified. Given that Earth has no air support, the ground troops will be vaporized along with every city the Imperials encounter. Then, MAYBE then, the Chinese or Russians might nuke the U.S. Vader won't catch 'em all---and the fallout/shock wave from the ones he misses will kill them. Seriously wish we knew the exact limitations of durasteel.

Oh but if Vader does manage to convince world leaders to secede power...

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Better. Sorta.

No nation will attack land so close to the U.S without the U.S. doing it first. And the U.S. will never resort to DEFCON 1 without believing there's no hope (even then, Jesus Obama won't obliterate his people simply because they're conquered). Which means they're entire military capacity has been nullified. Given that Earth has no air support, the ground troops will be vaporized along with every city the Imperials encounter. Then, MAYBE then, the Chinese or Russians might nuke the U.S. Vader won't catch 'em all---and the fallout/shock wave from the ones he misses will kill them. Seriously wish we knew the exact limitations of durasteel.

Oh but if Vader does manage to convince world leaders to secede power...

The earthlings have air, not imperials. I was referring to the imperials (yes it is fair given the imperials' weapons advantage)

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
The earthlings have air, not imperials. I was referring to the imperials (yes it is fair given the imperials' weapons advantage)

Now what ARE these AA devices of the Imperials' in your mind?

Originally posted by Borbarad]
@Blaxican:

I just can say: ROFL.
An F-22 is more heavily armed than a snowspeeder? Did you miss what I said about the laser weapons that the people in the SW universe mount on their fighters? Apparently you did...

CLICK ME
Let me quote:
"If we assume that the bolt strikes a target for 1/10 second, each cannon directs 600 GW to a target. Since this estimate is conservative, an X-Wing's blaster cannons easily release more energy in 10 seconds than the entire United States produces in electrical power. This is especially impressive when one considers the number of nuclear power plants in operation in the United States."

You were saying? So a single SW universe starfighter unleashes more energy in the form of firepower in ten seconds than the entire USA produce? Given that a snowspeeder only has 50 % of the weapons you can assume 1/2 of that energy output. I'd love to see the F-22 that has more firepower. And I love to see how they would touch an AT-AT given that this amount of firepower doesn't even touch the damn thing.

And because of that, I also said that your "knock them over" plan wouldn't work. We see the snowspeeders firing at the AT-ATs with charged plasma moving close to speed of light (so kinetical and explosive energy beyond anything you could produce with a modern day weapon) and nothing happens. There was a reason why the rebels had to use those cables.

That aside: The F-22s wouldn't even last 5 minutes, given the fact that the Imperials have handhelt concussion missle launchers / photon torpedo launchers.

Finally: You should all get your facts straight and don't try to discuss this topic based on the lower end showings of the Imperial military that spawn from the fact, that the story had to end in a certain way. The Empire conquered thousands of worlds with the very same military forces that look rather stupid in the movies - a fact that is more often than not explained through additional material, which one should check out before attempting to discuss the issue.

Stardestroyer.net?

No. Try again. The fact that he himself has stated that his figures are only based on rough estimations based on rough observations, your entire argument is thrown out of whack. Canon statements please. Glentract math holds no relevence in this topic. And no, his supposed degrees in Physics and the like has absolutely no bearing on the fact that he's still just some random dude not even working for Lucas who is ultimately getting his estimates off of what he can visually see and hear in the movies. Thus, your source sucks, and I'm not trying to be a dick, or hostile or condescending, but that's just what's up man.