Challenge to Debaters

Originally posted by darthgoober
Told you. That's why neutering never works, there's almost ALWAYS a way to get them back up to "full power". If the Phoenix Force itself was completely barred from the tourney(as in, it's against the rules to bring Jean up to full power) that's one thing, but just making her START the tourney without it is nothing more than neutering IMO.

Neutering is taking Superman and insisting that he only exerts enough power to be High Meta.

The list of characters that have the potential to exceed high meta that are, at normal power levels, below high meta is very long. Banning Jean on the basis that she could possibly be amped through clever strategies and a list of good drafts is no more justified than banning any tourney strategy involving amping perfectly legal characters past their normal power level.

Havok once "sun-dipped" and took out Vulcan. Should we ban him?

Originally posted by Original Smurph
But it's not neutering.

Neutering is taking Superman and insisting that he only exerts enough power to be High Meta.

The list of characters that have the potential to exceed high meta that are, at normal power levels, below high meta is very long. Banning Jean on the basis that she could possibly be amped through clever strategies and a list of good drafts is no more justified than banning any tourney strategy involving amping perfectly legal characters past their normal power level.

Havok once "sun-dipped" and took out Vulcan. Should we ban him?

I'd say that anyone who can amp themselves beyond high meta level without any outside assistance should be banned.

Originally posted by Scoobless
I'd say that anyone who can amp themselves beyond high meta level without any outside assistance should be banned.

That's why we've banned people that can multiply, people that copy powers, etc.

As far as characters that can absorb energy, I guess it's case by case. No way if Havok going to get a reliable, consistent amount of energy to absorb in order to be significantly more powerful without outside assistance.

Originally posted by Original Smurph
But it's not neutering.

Neutering is taking Superman and insisting that he only exerts enough power to be High Meta.

The list of characters that have the potential to exceed high meta that are, at normal power levels, below high meta is very long. Banning Jean on the basis that she could possibly be amped through clever strategies and a list of good drafts is no more justified than banning any tourney strategy involving amping perfectly legal characters past their normal power level.

Havok once "sun-dipped" and took out Vulcan. Should we ban him?

I agree that she COULD be a viable pick, but only if the Phoenix Force itself was barred with no possible way for her to access it.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Drafting a version that doesn't use the Phoenix Force just means that you picked a version that for whatever reason wasn't using the ability, it doesn't mean that the version in question doesn't HAVE the ability.

I hadn't realized that Jean was actually an omnipotent goddess throughout the entire X-Men series since Day 1, and just chose not to bother with her godlike powers just cuz.

Misleading phrasing, much?

Originally posted by Original Smurph
Funny, that one.

I hadn't realized that Jean was actually an omnipotent goddess throughout the entire X-Men series since Day 1, and just chose not to bother with her godlike powers just cuz.

Misleading phrasing, much?

Originally posted by darthgoober
You're talking about someone who suffered severe trauma as a child and carried around her own mental blocks as well as Xavier's own telepathic blocks on her abilities for years. Isn't there a scan floating around where Jean and Bobby discover that Xavier ALWAYS knew about their amazing potential and hasn't Xavier been saying since before the original Phoenix Saga that Jean was actually the most powerful of his students?

Jean under her own power can't gain the power of the Phoenix Force.

Therefore, we're not neutering. She's a legitimate character.

If people want to ban her for other reasons, so be it. The only point I'm refuting here is the assertion that Jean is being neutered.

Neutering it taking a character's regular power level and decreasing it to a level that is never shown in comics. It's creating a character that doesn't exist.

Jean Grey exists without access to the PF. Unlike you construed in the last post, Goober, she doesn't arbitrarily decide not to use it.

She couldn't.

Originally posted by Original Smurph
EXACTLY.

Jean under her own power can't gain the power of the Phoenix Force.

Therefore, we're not neutering. She's a legitimate character.

If people want to ban her for other reasons, so be it. The only point I'm refuting here is the assertion that Jean is being neutered.

Neutering it taking a character's regular power level and decreasing it to a level that is never shown in comics. It's creating a character that doesn't exist.

Jean Grey exists without access to the PF. Unlike you construed in the last post, Goober, she doesn't arbitrarily decide not to use it.

She couldn't.

And I'm not talking about banning Jean, I'm talking about banning the Phoenix Force. If Jean is just being drafted as a high meta psi then that's ok with me, but drafting her as the primary host for the Phoenix Force from an issue/arc when the writers didn't know about it and thought her mutant powers were limited to TP and/or TK qualifies as neutering IMO because you're drafting a character who's powers actually exceed the Cap, it's just that no one knew about it at the time. You might say "I'm drafting THIS version of Jean because her feats for the period fit within tourney limits", but once the match starts all you have to do is post a recton that places Jean/'s primary mutation as being the host for the Phoenix Force and everything changes. It may not be the exact form of neutering that's normally discussed during tourney's, but it definitely seems like a TYPE of neutering to me.

It's like drafting classic Jubilee as a low meta based on her actual feats and then using her ability to detonate a building on a sub atomic level come match time.

Originally posted by darthgoober
And I'm not talking about banning Jean, I'm talking about banning the Phoenix Force. If Jean is just being drafted as a high meta psi then that's ok with me, but drafting her as the primary host for the Phoenix Force from an issue/arc when the writers didn't know about it and thought her mutant powers were limited to TP and/or TK qualifies as neutering IMO because you're drafting a character who's powers actually exceed the Cap, it's just that no one knew about it at the time. You might say "I'm drafting THIS version of Jean because her feats for the period fit within tourney limits", but once the match starts all you have to do is post a recton that places Jean/'s primary mutation as being the host for the Phoenix Force and everything changes.

There are also versions of Jean Grey that were legitimately without the Phoenix Force. The Phoenix Force is an entity that bonded with Jean occaisionally, but not always.

If somebody tries to say "actually, this character that I drafted is secretly high herald", we kick them out. Simple as.

Jean can be drafted sans-phoenix, she may be able to be drafted sans-retcon (depending on what everyone thinks), and she's perfectly elligible.

Nobody could be drafted if they were secretly harboring the phoenix force though. She'd have to be a PF-less version, either pre-retcon or simply one that didn't have the PF at that moment in time.

Pachi says:
k. Anyways, just tell Darth that for the purposes of this tournament, we will be taking the stance that Jean Grey and the Phoenix are two seperate entities. Jean Greys powers are telepathy/telekinisis.
Pachi says:
She has at points hosted the PF. That is all.

Pachi = Blair = Chris

He sums it up well.

I suppose we could hash out history after retcon after retcon etc, but for the tourney, we're interpreting that they, as seperate entities, are not always together. I've talked with people in previous tourneys that have taken Jean, and sorted out her PF-less feats, so I feel confident that this isn't gonna be a problem.

There are possibly still ways to restore Jean to full power, but it'll be a challenge. I've heard theories though...

Originally posted by Original Smurph
You know that wouldn't happen in a tourney.

There are also versions of Jean Grey that were legitimately without the Phoenix Force. The Phoenix Force is an entity that bonded with Jean occaisionally, but not always.

If somebody tries to say "actually, this character that I drafted is secretly high herald", we kick them out. Simple as.

Jean can be drafted sans-phoenix, she may be able to be drafted sans-retcon (depending on what everyone thinks), and she's perfectly elligible.

Nobody could be drafted if they were secretly harboring the phoenix force though. She'd have to be a PF-less version, either pre-retcon or simply one that didn't have the PF at that moment in time.

Originally posted by Original Smurph
Pachi says:
k. Anyways, just tell Darth that for the purposes of this tournament, we will be taking the stance that Jean Grey and the Phoenix are two seperate entities. Jean Greys powers are telepathy/telekinisis.
Pachi says:
She has at points hosted the PF. That is all.

Pachi = Blair = Chris

He sums it up well.

I suppose we could hash out history after retcon after retcon etc, but for the tourney, we're interpreting that they, as seperate entities, are not always together. I've talked with people in previous tourneys that have taken Jean, and sorted out her PF-less feats, so I feel confident that this isn't gonna be a problem.

There are possibly still ways to restore Jean to full power, but it'll be a challenge. I've heard theories though...

Sounds cool, I was just wanting to make sure that loophole wasn't open for exploitation. Like I said, I don't think there's anything wrong with Jean as she's normally portrayed, I just didn't want anyone drafting her as her and getting her as Phoenix when CIS was removed. I mean come on, we've seen Trickster try to assemble the Warloog via time/dimension hopping during prep, is it really such a stretch to expect someone to draft Jean and say "Hah, I really drafted Phoenix since her self imposed limitations are removed..."? Remove CIS and encourage loopholes and you're likely to deal with ridiculous strategies out the wazoo...

Originally posted by darthgoober
Sounds cool, I was just wanting to make sure that loophole wasn't open for exploitation. Like I said, I don't think there's anything wrong with Jean as she's normally portrayed, I just didn't want anyone drafting her as her and getting her as Phoenix when CIS was removed. I mean come on, we've seen Trickster try to assemble the Warloog via time/dimension hopping during prep, is it really such a stretch to expect someone to draft Jean and say "Hah, I really drafted Phoenix since her self imposed limitations are removed..."? Remove CIS and encourage loopholes and you're likely to deal with ridiculous strategies out the wazoo...

As far as I see that, exploits through the absence of CIS are in fact neutering (also I've always referred to CIS as to the way of battle planning (the same way it's stipulated in the updated rules), so you can decide what to do or not to do with character).
CIL (character induced limutations) refer to the character-established inhinitions on their powerset (mental blocks etc).

I think that the absence of CIS should only allow for "free battle planning without taking personality into account", not for being able to draft characters without mental blocks.

What about the likes of Cable and Gambit? (and others probably)

Cable ("classic" version) had access to Nate Grey power levels (which is the next thing to PF) which he rarely used because his body would suffer ... his power was always there and available for use though.

Gambit has the whole mental block on New Sun thing (from what I understand ... never actually read that story) which means the power is already his without amping.

Originally posted by Scoobless
What about the likes of Cable and Gambit? (and others probably)

Cable ("classic" version) had access to Nate Grey power levels (which is the next thing to PF) which he rarely used because his body would suffer ... his power was always there and available for use though.

Gambit has the whole mental block on New Sun thing (from what I understand ... never actually read that story) which means the power is already his without amping.

I think exploits through the teamwork are playsible. It's not like it would be lots of blatant cases of those... no amalgams, remember.

With Cable you'll have to remove TO from his body to put him on Soldier X level. Impossible under one's own power.

Originally posted by Charlotte DeBel
With Cable you'll have to remove TO from his body to put him on Soldier X level. Impossible under one's own power.

Not true, he can easily use his full power level for brief periods ... and in a tourney match where death doesn't carry from round to round there's no reason at all not to go all "Jesus Cable".

Originally posted by Scoobless
What about the likes of Cable and Gambit? (and others probably)

Cable ("classic" version) had access to Nate Grey power levels (which is the next thing to PF) which he rarely used because his body would suffer ... his power was always there and available for use though.

Gambit has the whole mental block on New Sun thing (from what I understand ... never actually read that story) which means the power is already his without amping.

Depends on the incarnation of Cable.

90's X-Force Cable, for instance, could barely muster any telekinetic force, and trained to become able to use "more" of his power. He, if I recall correctly, couldn't really access it at all.

Because we don't have to worry about what specific tier a character's in (like we did in Delph's tourney), none of this is really that big of a deal. If a character can, under their own power, exceed the high meta cap, they're not allowed. Pretty straight forward.

As for Gambit, 616 version had brain surgery from Sinister to ensure he couldn't be New Sun. He can't, under his own power, attain those levels.

K, so I'm getting questions about the speed cap.

It's been claimed that Iron Man is > Mach 10 (the current speed cap), so characters should be allowed to be drafted if they are capable of going > Mach 10.

Maybe we shouldn't have a speed cap at all, and just leave it at the idea that if they're > high meta, they get banned?

Seems ambiguous.

Thoughts?

With speed, you're really only talking about a few that would raise issues about easy speedblitz wins. You'd really only be talking about maybe Classic Jay Garrick (sans speed force), Classic QS, and people in their range (I know there's a few others that are similar, but are more obscure).

A speed cap never hurts, though, just in case someone obscure gets shuffled in that's well beyond even the two I mentioned. If you leave it ambigous, it will be exploited, because people are always more tenacious about picks than hosts can be about researching them.

Originally posted by Original Smurph
Jean Grey is a legitimate character with plenty of phoenix-less appearances. Drafting a version of her that's not "ZOMG EAT THE SUNZ!!!" powerful doesn't mean that you're neutering, any more than drafting early versions of Cable, Spawn or Gambit.

And I'd like to see anybody somehow legally obtain the Phoenix Force to "bypass" drafting Jean without it. What Goob states is true. By current events, Jean and her decedents can claim the force if it is available.

Just sayin'...

srug

I am not going to point out the loophole. But yes, there is a way to legitimately gain the Phoenix Force. Clear as day light, I am sure of it. It does not even matter if you neuter the characters into Phoenixless avatars.

I am sending you the PM.