TPM Qui-Gon vs. AOTC Anakin

Originally posted by CadoAngelus
That's extremely blown out of proportion to the whole situation. And maybe even a little one sided...

I'm curious why you're quoting me when...

Mace and Yoda are unarguably two of the greatest in the current order, and compared to them, Tiin, Kolar and Fisto blow chunks...but this doesn't mean that they aren't elite fighters.

...You agree with me.

The highest council members have seats because they are: the wisest; strongest; most force sensative; most saber skilled...basically, they are the best at what they do. And evidently, Tiin Kolar and Fisto are not the greatest saber fighters on the council. [/B]

The greatest? No, that would clearly be Yoda and Mace.

Still looking for where we disagree.

ok, yes, i do agree with parts of your argument. but there are flaws, and before you think this a blind stab at you, hear me out.

Mace and Yoda are the two highest council members because they are wise/extremely force sensative/saber skilled/strong, therefore making them an amalgamation of all skills. Irrefutably making them the "top dogs".

Tiin, Kolar and Fisto are high ranking council members, BUT, they are not as skilled as Yoda and Mace as is evident by my post of the short fight scene. Tiin and Kolar in this particular situation show signs of being majorly brain-dead. Fisto shows some sign of life but is swiftly taken care of. Mace is the only of the team that holds his own longer than five seconds.

This, though it may seem otherwise to most, does not show Sidious' superior skill. This simply shows that Tiin and Kolar how a major lack of brain at that particular moment. Sidious gives them plenty of time to react, pulling back his saber to stab Kolar and then turning to Tiin before swipping...

Originally posted by CadoAngelus
ok, yes, i do agree with parts of your argument.

You're damn right you do; you clearly recognize awesomeness.

but there are flaws, and before you think this a blind stab at you, hear me out.

Lies.

Mace and Yoda are the two highest council members because they are wise/extremely force sensative/saber skilled/strong, therefore making them an amalgamation of all skills. Irrefutably making them the "top dogs".

I'm with you.

Tiin, Kolar and Fisto are high ranking council members, BUT, they are not as skilled as Yoda and Mace as is evident by my post of the short fight scene.

Still with you. No one was contending that Tiin, Kolar, or Fisto were on par with either Yoda or Mace.

Tiin and Kolar in this particular situation show signs of being majorly brain-dead.

This, my friend, is where we reach a parting of the ways. Tiin and Kolar are the recipients of several accolades made by various canon sources for their swordsmanship. The fact that they failed to react quickly to save themselves is not a sign of neurological deficits or a detractor to their abilities.

But, let's say that I use your logic (and the logic subscribed to by Nai and Janus). Exhibit A: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nZ624mrCE4

That is a link to the fight scene between Yoda and the Emperor in the Senate Rotunda. The critical timeframe is from 0:23 to 0:40.

After disabling the Royal Guardsmen, Yoda pauses to banter with the Emperor. Now, despite confirmation that he is a powerful Sith Lord and the master of both the late Count Dooku and the newly turned Darth Vader, Yoda seems surprisingly lax in his enemy's presence. Palpatine tells Yoda that "Now [Yoda] will experience the full power of the dark side."

Slowly raising his hands, he sends Force lightning at Yoda, who fails to react until the last possible second. His fledgling defense is overpowered, he's electrocuted and hurled into the far wall, to drop to the floor unconscious.

Not exactly a strategy befitting the great Master Yoda, who is the top dog. If we use your logic, he's a moron. In fact, to be quite fair, Yoda performs less admirably than Kit Fisto.

Fisto shows some sign of life but is swiftly taken care of. Mace is the only of the team that holds his own longer than five seconds.

Indeed, because Mace is on par with Yoda.

This, though it may seem otherwise to most, does not show Sidious' superior skill. This simply shows that Tiin and Kolar how a major lack of brain at that particular moment. Sidious gives them plenty of time to react, pulling back his saber to stab Kolar and then turning to Tiin before swipping...

Again, this is where we disagree. Tiin and Kolar do visibly react when Sidious leaps at them and lands; they just aren't quick enough to defend themselves. Sidious then proceeds to engage Fisto and Mace simultaneously before killing the former before the latter can stop him. That's a sign of great skill.

Originally posted by Gideon
After disabling the Royal Guardsmen, Yoda pauses to banter with the Emperor. Now, despite confirmation that he is a powerful Sith Lord and the master of both the late Count Dooku and the newly turned Darth Vader, Yoda seems surprisingly lax in his enemy's presence. Palpatine tells Yoda that "Now [Yoda] will experience the full power of the dark side."

Slowly raising his hands, he sends Force lightning at Yoda, who fails to react until the last possible second. His fledgling defense is overpowered, he's electrocuted and hurled into the far wall, to drop to the floor unconscious.

It's unquestionable that Yoda is too unprepared for the force lightning.

When Yoda hits the floor though he seems to open one eye, as if he had not planned the exact circumstances but had predicted that something like that would happen. And equally, in Sidious' laughing fit, Yoda has time to charge a powerful force push.

It does raise the question: does GL show a scene in real-time but mean peoples lack of reaction to mean that the opponant is fast or more skilled?

You, Gideon, given a situation can find very good and compelling facts to add...in this respect, i have to say you are putting up a very good argument.

Originally posted by CadoAngelus
It's unquestionable that Yoda is too unprepared for the force lightning.

Correct.

But does a mistake against a powerful, cunning foe revoke the accolades one has received over the years? Yoda failed to react against his adversary and it nearly cost him dearly; Palpatine could have quite effortlessly killed him at that point, but chose not to do so out of arrogance.

When Yoda hits the floor though he seems to open one eye, as if he had not planned the exact circumstances but had predicted that something like that would happen.

Yet you're entering the realm of total speculation.

And equally, in Sidious' laughing fit, Yoda has time to charge a powerful force push.

A bit more excusable, given that the Force push was relatively sudden, and Sidious recovered quite quickly.

It does raise the question: does GL show a scene in real-time but mean peoples lack of reaction to mean that the opponant is fast or more skilled?

That's where your argument, and Nai's, and Janus's all come up short.

Taken quite literally, Yoda is as incompetent as they come. Not only was he strung along like a child for decades, oblivious to the manipulations and schemes of one man, but he was nearly killed by that same man due to sheer stupidity; the so-called champion of the Jedi and Republic was shown in the movies to be rather inept. Palpatine was smarter and easily outwitted him and the rest of the Jedi and the Republic and everyone else; Yoda would spend two decades in a swamp ruminating on his total failure while his enemy sat in a plush throne on Coruscant as some sort of political demi-god.

Nai and Janus and you don't want to go down that road. They don't want to because both of them like Yoda and I'm using their argument to show that their logic concludes that Palpatine (a character neither of them like) is supreme either way. They inevitably cherrypick to suit their own agenda.

It's irretrievably wrong.

You, Gideon, given a situation can find very good and compelling facts to add...in this respect, i have to say you are putting up a very good argument.

Thank you.

Originally posted by CadoAngelus
I have to say you are putting up a very good argument.

Woah...now I've always wanted to peak at one of Gideon's post to see that premiere happening. Then I saw what you had quoted, and noticed the same fanboyish bullshit again.

I. "Let's ignore the source"

That seems to be a nice tactic when tossing random quotes into a forum to proof how uber your favourite character is. But where does the idea come from that the trio accompaning Mace belonged to the "best swordsman" in the order? Oh right...

Now Obi-Wan did face him. "Palpatine faced Mace and Agen and Kit and Saesee-four of the greatest swordsmen our Order has ever produced. By himself. Even both of us together wouldn't have a chance."

Right. The thought spawns from Obi-Wan Kenobi. Where I live, characters in literature aren't telling facts every time they open their mouth. So what they say is subject to falsification. In the realm of Gideon, everything that is written down in a book equals a fact. And yes, in fact Gideon wants to tell us that everything in the source holds the equal level of canon, because it's simply but in a C-/G-Canon source. That includes dialogue from the characters. Funny...

Using this logic, Obi-Wan Kenobi is "as powerful as Master Windu and as wise as Master Yoda", because Anakin said so in a G-Canon source (the AotC movie). Simply hilarious.

II. Ignoring the context

Another great thing to do, when you're trying to interprete literature. Let's have a look at the context of the quote given above.

"Why? Why matters not. There is no why. There is only a Lord of the Sith, and his apprentice. Two Sith." Yoda leaned close. "And two Jedi."
Obi-Wan nodded, but he still couldn't meet the gaze of the ancient
Master. "I'll take Palpatine."
"Strong enough to face Lord Sidious, you will never be. Die you will,
and painfully."
"Don't make me kill Anakin," he said. "He's like my brother, Master."
"The boy you trained, gone he is-twisted by the dark side. Consumed by Darth Vader. Out of this misery, you must put him. To visit our new Emperor, my job will be."
Now Obi-Wan did face him. "Palpatine faced Mace and Agen and Kit and Saesee-four of the greatest swordsmen our Order has ever produced. By himself. Even both of us together wouldn't have a chance."

Oh well. As it seems Obi-Wan is simply trying to convince Yoda that it's a bad idea to confront Sidious at all. Can it be that Kenobi exeggerated the abilities of the trio a little bit, because he hoped he could convince Yoda not to face Sidious with it? Especially given the fact that Kenobi in this situation seems to be desperate enough to throw his own life away ("I'll take Sidious"😉 just to avoid confrontation with Anakin?

If you don't want to accept the idea that Kenobi is exeggerating here, I'd really love to see where he had deep inside to the combat abilities of the trio, where he got the historic knowledge to put them on the "best swordsmen" ever produced by the order pedestal. And, of course, what they have done to belong there.

Aside of that you also would have to take a look on the rest of the source. A nice part of it would be the fight between those "best swordsman" and Sidious according to the novel:

"Resist? How could I possibly resist?" Still seated at the desk
Palpatine shook an empty fist helplessly, the perfect image of a tired, frightened old man. "This is murder, you Jedi traitors! How can I be any threat to you?"
He turned desperately to Saesee Tiin. "Master Tiin-you're the telepath.
What am I thinking right now?"
Tiin frowned and cocked his head. His blade dipped. A smear of
red-flashing darkness hurtled from behind the desk.
Saesee Tiin's head bounced when it hit the floor.
Smoke curled from the neck, and from the twin stumps of the horns, severed just below the chin.
Kit Fisto gasped, "Saesee!"
The headless corpse, still standing, twisted as its knees buckled, and
a thin sigh escaped from its trachea as it folded to the floor.
"It doesn't . . ." Agen Kolar swayed.
His emerald blade shrank away, and the handgrip tumbled from his opening fingers. A small, neat hole in the middle of his forehead leaked smoke, showing light from the back of his head.
". . . hurt . . ."

Yeah. Right. One might spot the obvious differences between novel and movie. Sidious doesn't take his time to stand up, ignite his lightsaber, come up with a monologue and then jump in front of them to perform an - still sloooooooow - stabbing movement to kill Kolar. In the novel he turns from "sitting old man" to "killer machine" in a split second, after irritating Tiin first. The Jedi see a helpless and unarmed old man sitting in front of them and are taken totally by surprise without a chance to react. Tiin is beheaded before he can even see what comes flying at him and Kolar recieves a lightsaber through the skull before Tiin's body has even dropped to the ground.

But, and this is the main difference: They are taken by surprise and nothing else. In the movie, this element is totally missing. When going by the novel, one could say that they were all belonging to the best of the order and Sidious tricked them (distraction / feigning weakness / fast attack without warning). But when looking at the movie, that simply doesn't fly any longer.

Yet the quote labelling them as some of the greatest assumes that the action happens like it does in the novel, because this was what Stover had to work with when writing it. That Lucas did - apparently - change the action later isn't his fault. But because of this change, the quote simply seems wrong, because of the giant gap in terms of lightsaber skill that Lucas presents to us in the movie and that clearly isn't present in the novel.

And we can't simply ignore that points, and just look at the quote and say "Yay! Teh canon!" when it's based on ideas overwritten by higher level canon.

III. Elite or not elite - that's the question

Let me first give a definition of "elite": People belonging to the elite are the choice or best of an art or persons belonging to the highest class of an art. For example: One could say that the "basketball elite" can be found almost only in the NBA.

The point here is the gap in skill between those that Lucas defines as "elite" (Yoda, Mace, Sidious) and those people that Kenobi labeled "best swordsman". We're not talking about some minor differences in terms of duelling skill here. We're not talking about swordsman that could endanger Sidious, when having their lucky day or something. We're talking about people that get butchered in a 3on1 situation - within seconds. And this while having backup from a guy that is Sidious superior in terms of lightsaber combat.

So how can one, after viewing this scene, still think about them being "some of the best the order ever produced"? Especially when the scene in the movie makes them look much worse than the same sequence does in the book. Getting killed in a surprise attack by somebody like Sidious could happen to the best - no problem with that idea. Standing there and not react to a Sith Lord that ignites his lightsaber, gives a monologue, jumps in your direction, pulls his blade back for a nice close up and then stabs you...that's an entire different thing that should not happen to "some of the best in the order".

Essentialy, the movie version and Lucas words do contradict the idea that the trio belongs into the "best swordsman" department, because Sidious, who is one of the best, was able to butcher them in a 3vs1 situation in a "fair" fight. This is not what the novel assumes. The novel assumes that he's sitting behind his desk, apparently unarmed and suddenly leapes right at Tiin with a lightsaber in hand so fast that two of them are dead before the first body hits the ground.

And following the movie version, they can't belong to the greatest. Presenting red herrings here or plain and simply ignoring context/source of the quote doesn't help much to defeat that point. The discrepancy between novel and movie here is just based off the fight scene that Lucas changed and that made the trio look much worse than they look in the novel. And I don't see how somebody can gloss over that fact by siting the novel which assumes an entirely different fight happening.

Nai, do us all a favor and don't pretend that's the only source singing their praises, especially considering we see Kit do things like defeat Grievous one on one and earlier in the novel, the narrator describes Agen as one of the best duelists in order history.

You've been given other sources on them before.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Nai, do us all a favor and don't pretend that's the only source singing their praises, especially considering we see Kit do things like defeat Grievous one on one and earlier in the novel, the narrator describes Agen as one of the best duelists in order history.

You've been given other sources on them before.

Oh. Any other source calling them the greatest ever, Lightsnake? Ironically, the only "other source" you list is the RotS novel again.

But, of course, I could just skim through their archievements, which would - actually - be your work to come with, right?

Kit Fisto
- surviving Geonosis (kind of a feat there)
- getting his ass handed to him by Asajj Ventress (Cestus Deception)
- Defeating Grievous? Yes. If force pushing the General to the ground counts as "defeating" him (despite the fight continues after this), then you have a point. Especially since the General is known for his great defense against force attacks...
- getting chopped in half by Sidious

So let me make that clear. Ventress > Fisto. And Ventress was totally owned by Dooku, who, according to you and Gideon, is not on one level with Mace, Sidious or Yoda. So let me count: Top Dogs > Dooku (2nd league) > Ventress (3rd league) > Fisto, but he's still among the best, not just of the era but ever?

Agen Kolar
- surviving Geonosis
- defeating Quinlan Vos
- dying against Sidious.

With Kolar, you may have a point because he defeated Vos, who in turn took on people like Sora Bulq. Yet, here again, the number of lightsaber duel exploits is limited to one successful lightsaber fight.

Saesee Tiin
- I wonder where the great deeds in terms of lightsaber combat can be found, given that Tiin was mostly noted for his piloting skills.

So based on that and a quote from an in-universe character you want to argue that the trio belongs to the "best swordsmen" that the order "ever" produced? I'd like to see how you turn that into a convincing argument, Lightsnake.

Oh, look, a whining tirade by Nai, saying nothing but vitriol and trying to pass his opinion as fact, what else is new.

Kit Fisto
- surviving Geonosis (kind of a feat there)
- getting his ass handed to him by Asajj Ventress (Cestus Deception)
- Defeating Grievous? Yes. If force pushing the General to the ground counts as "defeating" him (despite the fight continues after this), then you have a point. Especially since the General is known for his great defense against force attacks...
- getting chopped in half by Sidious

Agen Kolar
- surviving Geonosis
- defeating Quinlan Vos
- dying against Sidious.

With Kolar, you may have a point because he defeated Vos, who in turn took on people like Sora Bulq. Yet, here again, the number of lightsaber duel exploits is limited to one successful lightsaber fight.

Saesee Tiin
- I wonder where the great deeds in terms of lightsaber combat can be found, given that Tiin was mostly noted for his piloting skills.

So based on that and a quote from an in-universe character you want to argue that the trio belongs to the "best swordsmen" that the order "ever" produced? I'd like to see how you turn that into a convincing argument, Lightsnake.

I've yet to see your refutation of them referred to as three 'master swordsmen' in the visual guide. And as 'Celebrated Swordsmen' in the Complete Encyclopedia.

Mace himself thinks they're all master swordsmen...y'know what's funny? Given your arguments about Mace and Palpatine being much better than what we see, you're unwilling to imply it the other way because you'd need to accept that *GASP* Palpatine might be that good. What makes more sense? That or three prominent council members, widely considered master duelists in their time by both in and out of universe sources, who are all battle hardened veterans, two of whom have faced master duelists and come out alive, selected personally by Mace Windu to go arrest the greatest enemy of the Republic are really just a trio of untalented weaklings and Lucas didn't intend it any other way?

Ladies and gentlemen, this rebuttal will begin with a brief -- but telling -- history lesson. Several years ago, Nai was part of a special clique of debaters around here who staunchly believed that Marka Ragnos (yes, that Marka Ragnos) was the most powerful Force user in the mythos; far beyond the likes of Luke Skywalker, Darth Revan, Darth Sidious. Within my profile, you can find particular nuggets of information. Janus Marius once contended that Darth Bandon (yes, that Darth Bandon) was more powerful than Obi-Wan Kenobi based on reputation alone. Swirly Girl believed that Tulak Hord could absolutely crush most Jedi and Sith (such as Yoda) in the context of a swordfight. Exar Kun was worshipped as a god, as was Luke Skywalker, with Ragnos reigning supreme over them all. Force users such as Yoda and Sidious were widely disregarded and feats were neither explored nor substantiated.

The evidence for Marka Ragnos's status as the supreme overlord of Force users? There is a line on the back of a random comic that refers to him as "the most powerful of the most powerful -- the Dark Lord of the Sith," with no reference to time or position. The second piece of evidence was that "powerful" Sith Lords such as Naga Sadow and Ludo Kressh visibly feared Ragnos.

...

[a dramatic pause to give release to your barely contained laughter]

...

When someone offered a different perspective, despite such a thin defense, they were flamed and ridiculed. When statements began to be discovered in canon contradicting Ragnos's supremacy, such as the many supporting Sidious, they were disregarded as inspecific and "ambiguous."

Fast forward to the future, long after Lightsnake changed things around here, Nai is here ever-so-arrogantly arguing the contrary. All statements that he doesn't like are open to interpretation and suspect. Because Tiin, Fisto, and Kolar aren't bursting with feats to support their accolades, the statements must be disregarded.

...

[a dramatic pause to give release to the recently restored reservoir of laughter]

...

You may be tempted to draw delicious parallels to the Ragnos incident; you may be sorely inclined to ask: "But what a damn second... Marka Ragnos's only feats are dying under mysterious circumstances and getting his ass kicked by a random Jedi Knight in a video game. How can Nai or Janus or anyone else name him 'teh uber Sith godz!1!' when there's absolutely nothing to support that idea?"

The answer: "They made a tragic mistake [a series of them, actually] and are simply far too proud to yield." They were wrong and remain wrong to this day. All you'll get on the issue, though, if you ask them about it, are a series of insults, clever photoshop pictures and signatures, and blatant evasion.

So if you, the audience, wonder why I'm taking such great pleasure out of this, you'll hopefully understand: Nai Fohl is KMC's resident hypocrite. It's pretty sad when people who once sided with you on issues (Faunus [Eminence] and Darth Sexy) think you're a complete moron now.

To the argument:

Originally posted by Nai
That seems to be a nice tactic when tossing random quotes into a forum to proof how uber your favourite character is. But where does the idea come from that the trio accompaning Mace belonged to the "best swordsman" in the order? Oh right...

Now Obi-Wan did face him. "Palpatine faced Mace and Agen and Kit and Saesee-four of the greatest swordsmen our Order has ever produced. By himself. Even both of us together wouldn't have a chance."

Right. The thought spawns from Obi-Wan Kenobi. Where I live, characters in literature aren't telling facts every time they open their mouth. So what they say is subject to falsification. In the realm of Gideon, everything that is written down in a book equals a fact. And yes, in fact Gideon wants to tell us that everything in the source holds the equal level of canon, because it's simply but in a C-/G-Canon source. That includes dialogue from the characters. Funny...

Using this logic, Obi-Wan Kenobi is "as powerful as Master Windu and as wise as Master Yoda", because Anakin said so in a G-Canon source (the AotC movie). Simply hilarious.

Originally posted by Gideon
You seem to have this crazy idea that my source is limited to the Revenge of the Sith novel.

"Most of the Jedi are deployed on distant worlds, but Mace manages to assemble a trio of celebrated swordmasters to assist him in arresting Palpatine: Agen Kolar, a Zabrak known among the Jedi to strike first and ask questions later; Saesee Tiin, a solitary Iktotchi who has never chosen a Padawan learner; and Kit Fisto, Nautolan master of Form I lightsaber technique, who has distinguished himself on Geonosis and Mon Calamari, and who partnered Mace in battling Grievous on Coruscant." -- The Complete Visual Dictionary, page 163.

"Mace gathered a team of his finest Jedi warriors -- Saesee Tiin, Agen Kolar and Kit Fisto -- to arrest the Chancellor." -- the official databank, Mace Windu.

"The mighty warrior not only advised the highest office of the Republic, but was also part of the Jedi taskforce assembled by Mace Windu to rescue captives from the Separatist stronghold on Geonosis." -- the official databank, Kit Fisto.

"Bouri instilled a strong sense of conviction in Tiin, honing the Iktotchi's skill and dedication to the order to the point that some would describe Tiin as fanatical." -- the official databank, Saesee Tiin.

"Despite such hushed criticism, Tiin was a formidable warrior and an incredible pilot." -- the official databank, Saesee Tiin.

"Among the 200 Jedi that journeyed to the barren world of Geonosis was Agen Kolar, a male Zabrak of considerable skill." -- the official databank, Agen Kolar.

"Agen Kolar was a tough combatant, and diplomacy was not his strong suit." -- the official databank, Agen Kolar.

As I expected (and called!), Nai did not address my counterargument of Yoda's lack of reaction to Palpatine's Force lightning during the fight in the Rotunda.

Canon contradicts him all around and Lucas sides with me. The three Jedi might not be good enough to take on Sidious, but neither is Dooku or Obi-Wan, and they, too, are regarded as some of the finest Jedi in history.

I win.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Oh, look, a whining tirade by Nai, saying nothing but vitriol and trying to pass his opinion as fact, what else is new.

For somebody that, from the day he registered here, has done nothing else but trying to pass the idea that Sidious is the most powerful Sith down as fact, that are some nice words. And the only person that keeps whining here (like cheese with your whine?) is yourself. Hypocrisy much?

Hm. If holding his own against Grievous in straight combat isn't a plus, you better never list Mace's fight against Grievous again,, given he force pushed him off the Mag-Lev car.
Hypocrisy? I think so.

Oh. Wait a second. If I go by your last posting, Fisto has defeated the General. So, to rephrase that: Fisto's greatest showing of lightsaber skill is his ability to "hold his own against Grievous in straight combat"? That's the basis for him being one of the best swordsman ever ? Like...I'don't know...Ahsoka, who managed to do the same? Really...

Dooku has lectured Grievous twice ("Labyrinth of Evil" and "TCW - Lair of Grievous"😉 that he wouldn't be able to overcome a Jedi Master (in LoE = Council members) in direct confrontation, unless he has the elements of surprise, intimidation and fear on his side. So does every Jedi Master now belong to the "best swordsman ever" department, Lightsnake, because - accoding to Dooku, everyone of that group could simply defeat Grievous (maybe by simply force pwning him like Fisto and Mace did)?

Mentioned earlier on as one of the greatest swordsmen the order had ever produced. By the narration. And can't have it both ways: Either Agen sucks or he doesn't. If he doesn't, by virtue of taking on Quinlan Vos and beating him almost without effort, then your entire point? Suffers. Oh, HILARIOUS how you whine about his exploits limited to one successful fight, when you've tried to make arguments in the past for people like Naga Sadow. Who have....no successful fights.

a)
Try studying some literature, Lightsnake. Here is the part of the text you mentioned:

Perhaps of all the Council, only Obi-Wan could detect the shadow of disappointment and hurt that crept into Anakin's eyes. Obi-Wan understood perfectly, and could even sympathize: to take the field would have slipped Anakin out from under the pressures of what he saw as his conflicting duties.
"Given the strain on our current resources," Mace Windu said, "I
recommend we send only one Jedi-Master Kenobi."
Which would leave Mace and Agen Kolar-both among the greatest bladesbeings the Jedi Order had ever produced-here on Coruscant in case Sidious did indeed take this opportunity to make a dramatic move. Not to mention Anakin, who was a brigade's worth of firepower in his own right.
Obi-Wan nodded. Perfectly logical. Everyone would agree. Except Anakin.

This is just great, Lightsnake. The third person limited narrator is reviewing the entire scene through the eyes of Kenobi, giving us just Kenobi's observations and Kenobi's thoughts. So what do we have here? Oh yes, my friend. We have Kenobi thinking that Mace and Agen are among the greatest bladesbeings ever. Or, to make short work of your "argument": You're trying to prove Kenobi's thoughts right by using Kenobi's thoughts. That's indeed HILARIOUS.

b)
My previous arguments aren't of any matter here, Lightsnake. Ad hominem doesn't save your argument. Even if I told you myself that one of the trio belongs to the greatest ever anno 2004 - or last week for that matter, I'm still free to question the validity of the statement now. And, if you can't come up with an approbiate answer, you simply lose the debate. End of story.

Well, being considered one of the six greatest bladesbeings in the order,

Where? By whom? The list of the "greatests bladesbeings the order ever produced" does, at the moment, consist of: Yoda, Mace Windu, Anakin Skywalker, Obi-Wan Kenobi, Count Dooku, Cin Drallig, Kit Fisto, Saesee Tiin, Agen Kolar, Sora Bulq, Anoon Bondara, Qui-Gon Jinn, Depa Billaba, Quinlan Vos and Shaak Ti. And those are just the PT era beings that I could mention right of my mind. Apparently every Jedi that receives more than 10 second of screen time, ten lines in a novel or 2 panels in a comic does possess godlike lightsaber abilities.

we see him sparring Mace on rather even ground in the early Republic comics-the Nightsister arc-

The important word up there is "sparring". And I love how you draw conclusions regarding actual skill level out of still pictures showing a sparring match.

...and oh, yeah, we see the three of them systematically dismantle the Bounty Hunter's Guild with Mace.

We see Luke killing a group of bounty hunters and later cutting his way through the entire Black Sun HQ in SotE. Does that mean that Luke between ESB and SotE = "one of the greatest bladesbeings ever"? Hell. We saw blind Han Solo pwning Boba Fett in melee combat in RotJ. Does he also belong to the most competent duellist in the saga?

Or shall we simply listen to Lucas idea in the TPM commentary, where he says that Jedi are invincible, unless you take them out with dirty tricks or being outnumbered by far (like on Geonosis)? Quite frankly: In direct combat, a bounty hunter doesn't pose any threat for a Jedi. Notice how even Jango, at that time the "deadliest man alive" according to Mace (so clearly the deadliest bounty hunter if you want to believe that statement) fails to overcome Kenobi, even with fire support of Slave-I.

I've yet to see your refutation of them referred to as three 'master swordsmen' in the visual guide. And as 'Celebrated Swordsmen' in the Complete Encyclopedia.

Both almost directly quoting the novel on this issue? Really. If you go arguing in circles, you still don't get anywhere.

Mace himself thinks they're all master swordsmen...y'know what's funny?

Wow. I doubt a statement because it comes from an in-universe character. You reply with thoughts of an in-universe character. I think that is funny, Lightsnake.

Given your arguments about Mace and Palpatine being much better than what we see, you're unwilling to imply it the other way because you'd need to accept that *GASP* Palpatine might be that good.

Wow. Playing dumb now? Because I said that if you belief Leland Chee and the novel, they might just move faster than we perceive it on screen. Which doesn't mean that I agree with any of that, especially not since the novel contradicts the movie once again here (Anakin doesn't see anything of the duel).

And please. I even said that Sidious is good with a lightsaber (given that he survives longer than 30 seconds against both Yoda and Mace). That doesn't mean he has to be leagues above "some of the best ever" when the latter thought just happens in Kenobi's mind.

What makes more sense? That or three prominent council members, widely considered master duelists in their time by both in and out of universe sources, who are all battle hardened veterans, two of whom have faced master duelists and come out alive, selected personally by Mace Windu to go arrest the greatest enemy of the Republic are really just a trio of untalented weaklings and Lucas didn't intend it any other way?

Woah. You are certainly talking about two replacement council members (Fisto, Kolar) and Saesee Tinn, considered master duelists by only Kenobi and source material quoting him, of whom two have force pushed "master duellists" (according to Lightsnake). And those are selected personally by Master Windu for the special task to confront Sidious. Just keep ignoring that they are standing right next to Mace when Anakin comes running with the breaking new who the Sith Lord is - why? Mace explains it perfectly: "We're on our way to make sure that the Chancellor returns emergency power back to the senate" and then he leaves Anakin behind because not thrusting his words yet. So Mace Windu must be the only person that can hand pick people for a mission before knowing what the mission will be. Or did he hand-pick the "orderst finest" to confront a power-hungry politician?

Or, can it be that George Lucas, who - according to his own words - doesn't give a flying ducky about the EU (including those accolades and everything else regarding those characters in the C-Canon material) just thought it would be a good idea to let Sidious mutilate some cannon fodder with his lightsaber, just to emphasize how kick ass Samuel L. Jackson's character ("I'd like to have that special lightsaber and an uber death for Mace Windu, George...please!"😉 and, of course, Sidious himself, are? The very same George Lucas that placed the trio firmly below the people he consideres to be "the best duelists" in the SW universe?

Well. I wonder what's more likely. Occam's Razor anybody?

Oh, I forgot to mention that Nai is notorious for outright lying in order to keep his argument from being put on life support. Alas, my friend, you are much too late: the patient is quite terminal.

Originally posted by Nai
Dooku has lectured Grievous twice ("Labyrinth of Evil" and "TCW - Lair of Grievous"😉 that he wouldn't be able to overcome a Jedi Master (in LoE = Council members) in direct confrontation, unless he has the elements of surprise, intimidation and fear on his side. So does every Jedi Master now belong to the "best swordsman ever" department, Lightsnake, because - accoding to Dooku, everyone of that group could simply defeat Grievous (maybe by simply force pwning him like Fisto and Mace did)?

First, I have to address your characteristic double standard. You refuse to adhere to the word of Mace Windu [when it suits your benefit] and yet you take the word of Count Dooku -- the word of a lying, deceitful Lord of the Sith -- as the gospel to make your argument?

That, Nai, will simply not do.

Second, Count Dooku didn't say that at all:

No, no, stop, stop," [Dooku] yelled, coming to his feet and striding to the middle of the training circle, his arms extended to both sides. When he was certain he had their attention, he swung to Grievous. "Power moves served you well on Hypori against Jedi such as Daakman Barrek and Tarr Seir. But I pity should you have to face off against any of the Council Masters." He called into his hand his courtly, curve-handled lightsaber and drew a rapid X in the air--a Makashi flourish. "Do I need to demonstrate what responses you can expect from Cin Drallig or Obi-Wan Kenobi? Or Mace Windu or, stars help you, Yoda?"

He flicked his blade quickly, ridding two of the guards of their staffs, then placing the glowing tip a millimeter from Grievous's death-helmeted visage. "Finesse. Artfulness. Economy. Otherwise, my friend, I fear that you will end up beyond the repair of even the Geonosians. Do you take my meaning?"

Nowhere does Count Dooku say or suggest that he would fail to overcome a Jedi Master without surprise, intimidation, or fear. He simply lectures that "power moves" wouldn't necessarily be sufficient to get the job done. Indeed, the very same book shows Grievous pitted against Mace Windu in single combat and is able to analyze Vaapad and respond in kind, prompting Mace to conclude that "[Mace] wasn't interested in prolonging the contest any longer than necessary."

You can't even win when you lie.

Edit:

Woah. You are certainly talking about two replacement council members (Fisto, Kolar) and Saesee Tinn, considered master duelists by only Kenobi and source material quoting him,

Also a lie.

Originally posted by Gideon
Ladies and gentlemen, this rebuttal will begin with a brief -- but telling -- history lesson. Several years ago, Nai was part of a special clique of debaters around here who staunchly believed that Marka Ragnos (yes, that Marka Ragnos) was the most powerful Force user in the mythos; far beyond the likes of Luke Skywalker, Darth Revan, Darth Sidious. Within my profile, you can find particular nuggets of information. Janus Marius once contended that Darth Bandon (yes, that Darth Bandon) was more powerful than Obi-Wan Kenobi based on reputation alone. Swirly Girl believed that Tulak Hord could absolutely crush most Jedi and Sith (such as Yoda) in the context of a swordfight. Exar Kun was worshipped as a god, as was Luke Skywalker, with Ragnos reigning supreme over them all. Force users such as Yoda and Sidious were widely disregarded and feats were neither explored nor substantiated.

The evidence for Marka Ragnos's status as the supreme overlord of Force users? There is a line on the back of a random comic that refers to him as "the most powerful of the most powerful -- the Dark Lord of the Sith," with no reference to time or position. The second piece of evidence was that "powerful" Sith Lords such as Naga Sadow and Ludo Kressh visibly feared Ragnos.

...

[a dramatic pause to give release to your barely contained laughter]

...

When someone offered a different perspective, despite such a thin defense, they were flamed and ridiculed. When statements began to be discovered in canon contradicting Ragnos's supremacy, such as the many supporting Sidious, they were disregarded as inspecific and "ambiguous."

Fast forward to the future, long after Lightsnake changed things around here, Nai is here ever-so-arrogantly arguing the contrary. All statements that he doesn't like are open to interpretation and suspect. Because Tiin, Fisto, and Kolar aren't bursting with feats to support their accolades, the statements must be disregarded.

...

[a dramatic pause to give release to the recently restored reservoir of laughter]

...

You may be tempted to draw delicious parallels to the Ragnos incident; you may be sorely inclined to ask: "But what a damn second... Marka Ragnos's only feats are dying under mysterious circumstances and getting his ass kicked by a random Jedi Knight in a video game. How can Nai or Janus or anyone else name him 'teh uber Sith godz!1!' when there's absolutely nothing to support that idea?"

The answer: "They made a tragic mistake [a series of them, actually] and are simply far too proud to yield." They were wrong and remain wrong to this day. All you'll get on the issue, though, if you ask them about it, are a series of insults, clever photoshop pictures and signatures, and blatant evasion.

So if you, the audience, wonder why I'm taking such great pleasure out of this, you'll hopefully understand: Nai Fohl is KMC's resident hypocrite. It's pretty sad when people who once sided with you on issues (Faunus [Eminence] and Darth Sexy) think you're a complete moron now.

Ad hominem. Not worth my time. Next please.

"Most of the Jedi are deployed on distant worlds, but Mace manages to assemble a trio of celebrated swordmasters to assist him in arresting Palpatine: Agen Kolar, a Zabrak known among the Jedi to strike first and ask questions later; Saesee Tiin, a solitary Iktotchi who has never chosen a Padawan learner; and Kit Fisto, Nautolan master of Form I lightsaber technique, who has distinguished himself on Geonosis and Mon Calamari, and who partnered Mace in battling Grievous on Coruscant." -- The Complete Visual Dictionary, page 163.

The quote is contradicted by the movie: Mace doesn't pick the trio to arrest Palpatine. He, by his own words, assembled them to "make sure that the Chancellor gives emergency power back to the Senate". When assembling the trio, Mace didn't even know that he was up to confront a Sith Lord, as Anakin told him later.

I'm still not finding anything noteworthy in regards to their skill.

"Mace gathered a team of his finest Jedi warriors -- Saesee Tiin, Agen Kolar and Kit Fisto -- to arrest the Chancellor." -- the official databank, Mace Windu.

Statement released after the novel. Arguing in circles. You know it, I know it - so why do you try to substantiate something by quoting something that follows from the point you want to substantiate?

"The mighty warrior not only advised the highest office of the Republic, but was also part of the Jedi taskforce assembled by Mace Windu to rescue captives from the Separatist stronghold on Geonosis." -- the official databank, Kit Fisto.

By Lucas own words, every single Jedi is invincible...I wonder what random quotes from the databank to change here. So Fisto is a "mighty warrior" that means he belongs to the "elite" of an entire order filled with mighty warriors how exactly?

"Bouri instilled a strong sense of conviction in Tiin, honing the Iktotchi's skill and dedication to the order to the point that some would describe Tiin as fanatical." -- the official databank, Saesee Tiin.

Judgement from another character who merely points out Tiin's dedication to the order...

"Despite such hushed criticism, Tiin was a formidable warrior and an incredible pilot." -- the official databank, Saesee Tiin.

And still criticism about his person was made?

"Among the 200 Jedi that journeyed to the barren world of Geonosis was Agen Kolar, a male Zabrak of considerable skill." -- the official databank, Agen Kolar.

So Kolar is on par with the other dozen of people that survived Geonosis, including Padme?

"Agen Kolar was a tough combatant, and diplomacy was not his strong suit." -- the official databank, Agen Kolar.

Wow. "Tough combatant" equals "one of the best the order has ever" produced now.

As I expected (and called!), Nai did not address my counterargument of Yoda's lack of reaction to Palpatine's Force lightning during the fight in the Rotunda.

Because a red hering doesn't qualify as counter-argument, Gideon. You should have learned it by know.

Canon contradicts him all around and Lucas sides with me. The three Jedi might not be good enough to take on Sidious, but neither is Dooku or Obi-Wan, and they, too, are regarded as some of the finest Jedi in history.

Yes. Maybe because Dooku and Obi-Wan managed to put up some defense against the likes of Yoda, Mace (Dooku) and Anakin (Kenobi), where at least two of the trio (Kolar, Tiin) died because six f*cking seconds aren't enough to come up with some defensive stance against a Sith Lord that comes flying at you with an ignited lightsaber.

I win.

...the pointless verbosity contest. We have half a post worth of one ad hominem argument, that doesn't do anything and the other half is just litered with quotes that don't prove anything. Good job wasting storage space on the internet, Gideon.

I'm afraid there was no ad hominem Nai. If you actually spent more time learning to debate(logically), and less time trying to memorize logical fallacies, you'd see that Escape did nothing but factually state your positions, and their flaws in reasoning. But keep going.

Originally posted by Nai
Ad hominem. Not worth my time. Next please.

Originally posted by Gideon
All you'll get on the issue, though, if you ask them about it, are a series of insults, clever photoshop pictures and signatures, and blatant evasion.

Something tells me that my brilliance has been upgraded to outright omniscience, or you're just predictable.

Then again, you posted this not too long ago:

Originally posted by Nai
With that in mind, I will just threat you like any other teenager from now on, or, to be more precise, like every other adult my age will usually threat you if you should try to reason with them in reallife (which you probably won't even attempt). Which means: I will simply ignore you, kid. You aren't somebody special, you repeat yourself ad nauseam, you can't grasp the most basic concepts, you aren't smart and you aren't funny. Thus you're not worth 5 seconds of my free-time any longer. Have a nice life.

Talk about ad hominem. So, once again, we reaffirm that you are both a hypocrite and a liar.

The quote is contradicted by the movie: Mace doesn't pick the trio to arrest Palpatine. He, by his own words, assembled them to "make sure that the Chancellor gives emergency power back to the Senate". When assembling the trio, Mace didn't even know that he was up to confront a Sith Lord, as Anakin told him later.

The sentence does not contradict the movie; Windu believed Palpatine would not yield his powers and intended to arrest him at such time; the statement also does not contradict the fact that Mace was unaware of Palpatine's Sith allegiance until Anakin's revelation.

Blatant evasion, indeed.

I'm still not finding anything noteworthy in regards to their skill.

Remember that line I used on Janus? The one that said how it wasn't up to him to interpret or decide what is or is not canon? Yeah, that applies to you, too.

Statement released after the novel.

Originally posted by Gideon
Blatant evasion, indeed.

Prove that it was released specifically after the novel and before the movie, and then prove how that makes a difference.

Originally posted by Nai
Arguing in circles.

Not at all; more or less a straight line. I'm chasing you with fact and logic and you're hauling ass in the opposite, eternal direction. No circles or geometric shapes involved.

You know it, I know it - so why do you try to substantiate something by quoting something that follows from the point you want to substantiate?

This is affirmation of their status.

By Lucas own words, every single Jedi is invincible...I wonder what random quotes from the databank to change here. So Fisto is a "mighty warrior" that means he belongs to the "elite" of an entire order filled with mighty warriors how exactly?

Originally posted by Gideon
Blatant evasion, indeed.

Judgement from another character

...

Originally posted by Nai
Dooku has lectured Grievous twice ("Labyrinth of Evil" and "TCW - Lair of Grievous"😉 that he wouldn't be able to overcome a Jedi Master (in LoE = Council members) in direct confrontation, unless he has the elements of surprise, intimidation and fear on his side. So does every Jedi Master now belong to the "best swordsman ever" department, Lightsnake, because - accoding to Dooku, everyone of that group could simply defeat Grievous (maybe by simply force pwning him like Fisto and Mace did)?

Originally posted by Gideon
First, I have to address your characteristic double standard. You refuse to adhere to the word of Mace Windu [when it suits your benefit] and yet you take the word of Count Dooku -- the word of a lying, deceitful Lord of the Sith -- as the gospel to make your argument?

Originally posted by Nai
who merely points out Tiin's dedication to the order...

Another lie for the record.

"Bouri instilled a strong sense of conviction in Tiin, honing the Iktotchi's skill and dedication to the order to the point that some would describe Tiin as fanatical." -- the official databank, Saesee Tiin.

And still criticism about his person was made?

Originally posted by Gideon
Blatant evasion, indeed.

Originally posted by Nai
So Kolar is on par with the other dozen of people that survived Geonosis, including Padme?

That's pretty stupid, since the statement does not imply that Kolar's skill was "on par" with the other 200 Jedi; his skill was noted as being considerable among those Jedi; an obvious qualifier to set him apart.

Originally posted by Gideon
Blatant evasion, indeed.

Originally posted by Nai
Wow. "Tough combatant" equals "one of the best the order has ever" produced now.

Originally posted by Gideon
This is affirmation of their status.

Originally posted by Nai
Because a red hering doesn't qualify as counter-argument, Gideon. You should have learned it by know.

It was a legitimate argument using your own logic. If applied universally, Yoda was a moron of epic proportions. You lose.

Yes. Maybe because Dooku and Obi-Wan managed to put up some defense against the likes of Yoda, Mace (Dooku) and Anakin (Kenobi), where at least two of the trio (Kolar, Tiin) died because six f*cking seconds aren't enough to come up with some defensive stance against a Sith Lord that comes flying at you with an ignited lightsaber.

George Lucas: "You have to be Mace or Yoda to compete with Palpatine."

Not "defeat" or "fight well" but to compete on any given level.

...the pointless verbosity contest. We have half a post worth of one ad hominem argument, that doesn't do anything and the other half is just litered with quotes that don't prove anything. Good job wasting storage space on the internet, Gideon.

I win [x3].

Originally posted by Borbarad
For somebody that, from the day he registered here, has done nothing else but trying to pass the idea that Sidious is the most powerful Sith down as fact, that are some nice words. And the only person that keeps whining here (like cheese with your whine?) is yourself. Hypocrisy much?

a)
Try studying some literature, Lightsnake. Here is the part of the text you mentioned:

Perhaps of all the Council, only Obi-Wan could detect the shadow of disappointment and hurt that crept into Anakin's eyes. Obi-Wan understood perfectly, and could even sympathize: to take the field would have slipped Anakin out from under the pressures of what he saw as his conflicting duties.
"Given the strain on our current resources," Mace Windu said, "I
recommend we send only one Jedi-Master Kenobi."
Which would leave Mace and Agen Kolar-both among the greatest bladesbeings the Jedi Order had ever produced-here on Coruscant in case Sidious did indeed take this opportunity to make a dramatic move. Not to mention Anakin, who was a brigade's worth of firepower in his own right.
Obi-Wan nodded. Perfectly logical. Everyone would agree. Except Anakin.

This is just great, Lightsnake. The third person limited narrator is reviewing the entire scene through the eyes of Kenobi, giving us just Kenobi's observations and Kenobi's thoughts. So what do we have here? Oh yes, my friend. We have Kenobi thinking that Mace and Agen are among the greatest bladesbeings ever. Or, to make short work of your "argument": You're trying to prove Kenobi's thoughts right by using Kenobi's thoughts. That's indeed [b]HILARIOUS.

Also noting that maybe-just maybe- there's something to Mace and Obi-wan praising these swordsmen. Could it be...they DON'T suck?

b)
My previous arguments aren't of any matter here, Lightsnake. Ad hominem doesn't save your argument. Even if I told you myself that one of the trio belongs to the greatest ever anno 2004 - or last week for that matter, I'm still free to question the validity of the statement now. And, if you can't come up with an approbiate answer, you simply lose the debate. End of story.

Where? By whom? The list of the "greatests bladesbeings the order ever produced" does, at the moment, consist of: Yoda, Mace Windu, Anakin Skywalker, Obi-Wan Kenobi, Count Dooku, Cin Drallig, Kit Fisto, Saesee Tiin, Agen Kolar, Sora Bulq, Anoon Bondara, Qui-Gon Jinn, Depa Billaba, Quinlan Vos and Shaak Ti. And those are just the PT era beings that I could mention right of my mind. Apparently every Jedi that receives more than 10 second of screen time, ten lines in a novel or 2 panels in a comic does possess godlike lightsaber abilities.

The important word up there is "sparring". And I love how you draw conclusions regarding actual skill level out of still pictures showing a sparring match.

We see Luke killing a group of bounty hunters and later cutting his way through the entire Black Sun HQ in SotE. Does that mean that Luke between ESB and SotE = "one of the greatest bladesbeings ever"? Hell. We saw blind Han Solo pwning Boba Fett in melee combat in RotJ. Does he also belong to the most competent duellist in the saga?

Or shall we simply listen to Lucas idea in the TPM commentary, where he says that Jedi are invincible, unless you take them out with dirty tricks or being outnumbered by far (like on Geonosis)? Quite frankly: In direct combat, a bounty hunter doesn't pose any threat for a Jedi. Notice how even Jango, at that time the "deadliest man alive" according to Mace (so clearly the deadliest bounty hunter if you want to believe that statement) fails to overcome Kenobi, even with fire support of Slave-I.

Both almost directly quoting the novel on this issue? Really. If you go arguing in circles, you still don't get anywhere.

Wow. I doubt a statement because it comes from an in-universe character. You reply with thoughts of an in-universe character. I think that is funny, Lightsnake.

Wow. Playing dumb now? Because I said that if you belief Leland Chee and the novel, they might just move faster than we perceive it on screen. Which doesn't mean that I agree with any of that, especially not since the novel contradicts the movie once again here (Anakin doesn't see anything of the duel).

And please. I even said that Sidious is good with a lightsaber (given that he survives longer than 30 seconds against both Yoda and Mace). That doesn't mean he has to be leagues above "some of the best ever" when the latter thought just happens in Kenobi's mind.

Woah. You are certainly talking about two replacement council members (Fisto, Kolar) and Saesee Tinn, considered master duelists by only Kenobi and source material quoting him, of whom two have force pushed "master duellists" (according to Lightsnake). And those are selected personally by Master Windu for the special task to confront Sidious. Just keep ignoring that they are standing right next to Mace when Anakin comes running with the breaking new who the Sith Lord is - why? Mace explains it perfectly: "We're on our way to make sure that the Chancellor returns emergency power back to the senate" and then he leaves Anakin behind because not thrusting his words yet. So Mace Windu must be the only person that can hand pick people for a mission before knowing what the mission will be. Or did he hand-pick the "orderst finest" to confront a power-hungry politician?

Or, can it be that George Lucas, who - according to his own words - doesn't give a flying ducky about the EU (including those accolades and everything else regarding those characters in the C-Canon material) just thought it would be a good idea to let Sidious mutilate some cannon fodder with his lightsaber, just to emphasize how kick ass Samuel L. Jackson's character ("I'd like to have that special lightsaber and an uber death for Mace Windu, George...please!"😉 and, of course, Sidious himself, are? The very same George Lucas that placed the trio firmly below the people he consideres to be "the best duelists" in the SW universe?

The quote is contradicted by the movie: Mace doesn't pick the trio to arrest Palpatine. He, by his own words, assembled them to "make sure that the Chancellor gives emergency power back to the Senate". When assembling the trio, Mace didn't even know that he was up to confront a Sith Lord, as Anakin told him later.

I'm still not finding anything noteworthy in regards to their skill.

Statement released after the novel. Arguing in circles. You know it, I know it - so why do you try to substantiate something by quoting something that follows from the point you want to substantiate?

By Lucas own words, every single Jedi is invincible...I wonder what random quotes from the databank to change here. So Fisto is a "mighty warrior" that means he belongs to the "elite" of an entire order filled with mighty warriors how exactly?

Judgement from another character who merely points out Tiin's dedication to the order...

And still criticism about his person was made?

So Kolar is on par with the other dozen of people that survived Geonosis, including Padme?

Wow. "Tough combatant" equals "one of the best the order has ever" produced now.

Yes. Maybe because Dooku and Obi-Wan managed to put up some defense against the likes of Yoda, Mace (Dooku) and Anakin (Kenobi), where at least two of the trio (Kolar, Tiin) died because six f*cking seconds aren't enough to come up with some defensive stance against a Sith Lord that comes flying at you with an ignited lightsaber.

Originally posted by Gideon
Something tells me that my brilliance has been upgraded to outright omniscience, or you're just predictable.

Which doesn't erase you attempt to use an ad hominem to discredit my argument.

Talk about ad hominem. So, once again, we reaffirm that you are both a hypocrite and a liar.

You do know what an ad hominem is, Gideon? An ad hominem is not equal to an simple insult (hint: I was just insulting you). An ad hominem is an insult that is commited to disprove the argument your opponent just make.

In short: "Your an arrogant idiot" is not equal to "You're an arrogant idiot and therefor your argument sucks" or "But yesterday, you were stating the opposite, hence your argument is invalid". Do you get the point now? I'm really tired of explaining that one.

The sentence does not contradict the movie; Windu believed Palpatine would not yield his powers and intended to arrest him at such time; the statement also does not contradict the fact that Mace was unaware of Palpatine's Sith allegiance until Anakin's revelation.

Blatant evasion, indeed.

No. Windu doesn't even know that Sidious was the Sith Lord. His reaction to this revelation: He says that if that should be true that's the worst thing that could have happened. Yet he still doesn't thrust Anakin hence leaving him behind, again mentioning that Anakin has earned his thrust if telling the truth

So, Mace didn't know that this visit to Sidious office would include fighting the Sith Lord, hence he couldn't create a task force for that particular task.

Remember that line I used on Janus? The one that said how it wasn't up to him to interpret or decide what is or is not canon? Yeah, that applies to you, too.

And it applies to yourself as well, Gideon. You're trying to enforce your interpretations on us as well, if you're not able to realize that simple fact. At least Janus and I can agree to disagree on certain issues, while you - as it seems - can't stand anything that contests your ideas.

Prove that it was released specifically after the novel and before the movie, and then prove how that makes a difference.

Prove that the database has any level of canon if not backed up by other sources. Wow. That was an easy victory.

Not at all; more or less a straight line. I'm chasing you with fact and logic and you're hauling ass in the opposite, eternal direction. No circles or geometric shapes involved.

No. You're trying to prove a statement by taking the very same statement coming from another source and just post it again. That equals = [A] must be right, because [A] must be right. Petitio principii or arguing in circles.

And considering that you don't have any grasp of "logic" and possible don't even know what that freaking word means, I'm thrilled by the idea that you could chase me with it.

Another lie for the record.

"Bouri instilled a strong sense of conviction in Tiin, honing the Iktotchi's skill and dedication to the order to the point that some would describe Tiin as fanatical." -- the official databank, Saesee Tiin.

And it's just another character judgement. Funny stuff.
And I know, you will try to point out the "double standard" here again. Just for the record: Since I don't think that character statements are "canon", I can ignore them. Since you think the have to be canon, I can use them against you. That's a fairly easy concept. The double-standard or hypocrisy would just kick in if I were assuming the above mentioned. Yet, it simply follows from your actions here...

That's pretty stupid, since the statement does not imply that Kolar's skill was "on par" with the other 200 Jedi; his skill was noted as being considerable among those Jedi; an obvious qualifier to set him apart.

Surviving the battle is also an obvious qualifier to set Padme apart from the Jedi who managed to die in the arena, Gideon. So, by reversing that little line of thought of yours, we can conclude that all people not surviving there are worse combatants than Padme. So his skill is noteworthy among a bunch of moving targets? 😄

It was a legitimate argument using your own logic. If applied universally, Yoda was a moron of epic proportions. You lose.

No. It is still an "argument" not touching the debate, ignoring the media in which it is presented in and ignoring the context in which it happens. This is called "red herring". And my logic? My logic, dear Gideon, is based upon a condratiction between novel and movie in regards to a fight and the conclusions that the novel draws from that retconned version which can't be derived from the higher canon of the movie.

That's a fairly easy concept, Gideon.

George Lucas: "You have to be Mace or Yoda to compete with Palpatine."

Not "defeat" or "fight well" but to compete on any given level.

Which means, if you aren't Mace or Yoda, you can't compete with Palpatine on any given level, which logically contradicts the idea, that the trio belongs to the same league with the people who can do the job.

I win [x3].

...this nice award here (Just to inflame the prejudices):

Wow Nai, you're as predictable as Escape had claimed. I was just waiting for some kind of picture or photoshop and there it is, like clockwork!