Originally posted by Philosophía
When you have Surfer blocking light after it's fired, let me know. Until then, randomly blocking energy blasts, and assuming they all go lightspeed, is rather stupid.
Also, please note that I said they were decent indications, not definite.
Originally posted by Starscream M
they have bulletspeed deflection reflections...but it doesn't translate to bulletspeed attack speed imogoober seems to be saying if someone can block a lightspeed attack...that means they should be able to attack at lightspeed as well which i dont think is the case
Originally posted by darthgooberoh yeah, then I agree...sorry for misconstruing what you said
No I'm not. You'll never hear me say that Surfer's a lightspeed blitzer. I'm talking about him using his speed defensively, not offensively. If you can block or dodge a blast that's moving lightspeed, you can block or dodge a hammer/punch/etc. that's moving at lightspeed as well.
Originally posted by Starscream M
oh yeah, then I agree...sorry for misconstruing what you said
http://i498.photobucket.com/albums/rr347/darthgoober/silversurfer07p40.jpg
...it's to an unquantified extent, but I think that's pretty solid proof of Surfer being able to fight at superspeed when it's necessary.
Originally posted by darthgoober
What are the Nega Bands "default" blast again? Aren't they known for mostly firing photonic energy? Isn't photonic energy just a fancy word for light?Also, please note that I said they were decent indications, not definite.
Was it stated that the blast fired was composed of light, or anything of that sort ? Because it seems you are only speculating, tbh.
Originally posted by Philosophía
Was it stated that the blast fired was composed of light, or anything of that sort ? Because it seems you are only speculating, tbh.
Again, it's a decent indication because we know the Nega Bands normally fire blasts of light, but it's not definite because it isn't specifically stated(details like that rarely are). That's why I pointed out two actual instance that featured the phrase "speed of light" and then labeled the blasts as a decent indication.
Originally posted by id369
@Naija boyI am out of time, and I only really post seriously one day out of the week. However, its becoming clearly impendent that our continuing argument would be filled with circular logic, and AD HOMINEM’s.
No circular logic coming from here
So I am going to round this up vary nicely. Matter Manipulation. I don’t believe Surfer can manipulate Beta Ray Bill on the fly, the enchantments placed on Stormbreaker would protect Bill just as much as Mjolnir does towards Thor.
Most of the times thors resistance to direct matter manip has resulted from his being an asgardian physiology. Hence surfer wouldnt have been able to manipulate thor in the same way as bill.
Speed wise, Surfer has the advantage for demonstrating upper highs, and sparsely applying them in combat. Despite the fact, his on going showings with both Surfer and Bill. It seems to suggests that Bill’s reflex and battle experience is enough to keep up with characters of the same tier. Surfer has the advantage but not enough to overwhelm, Bill.
He has applied it enough for it to be a valid advantage. Further using showings of surfer and bill in which they applied no speed in order to judge their speed defies logic and i have explained the fault in this already. Still all the matters is that surfer has the advantage which u have thanfully acknowledged
Durability. This is a hard call. Surfer may have one or two incidents with upper highs. But they are placed into question or round down because of his lower lows. However Bill durability surprises me, because he is generally seen as a tank, and its not a single but a string of instances within an arc, where he shows the ability take punishment and walk it off.
Surfers doesnt have "one or two incidents" of upper highs. He has shown consistently to have durability above BRBs. Emphasis on consistent.Many of his low end feats have context surrounding them and even then they are still low feats and not applicable. In BRBs best portrayal(storm breaker arc) he still did not display durability equal to or above surfers.
Energy Output I would give the nod to Surfer, for his energy discharge creating a black hole. However, Bill is not to far behind for out gunning a herald tug of war. Its difficult to judge energy output when one is based on a feat, while the other is referenced from a showing. Usually I favor a showing, then a feat.
BRB outgunned stardust who is below surfer. Impressive but not enough to put him above surfer who was above stardust to begin with.
Clearly Bills advantage, for demonstrating more feats regarding strength.
State of mind. Battle Experience, will to fight, ruthlessness etc.. it evens out, maybe a slight advantage towards Bill because his state of mind is more consistent then Surfers. He is after all, a worrier and this character trait has remain relatively intact since its introduction.
Bill is more of a warrior than surfer obviously but he fights less intelligently. so it has its advantages as well as disadvantages
I generally see Bill as Classic Thor..only a bit more ruthless. Surfer would have as much trouble with Bill as he would with Thor. If Surfer decides to play it smart keeping his distance, apply energy blasts, at an elevated speed. Bill would be hard pressed to garnish a victory. But if Surfer decides to go ruthless on him, and stand up toe to toe, Bill is the physical superior and at close quarters is where he specializes in.
Bill is NOT equal to classic thor. sure there comparable but thor still has a few advantages over him.For one Bill brawls even more than thor. Then there are the advantages that thors asgardian physiology and lifeforce give him. further Surfer going "ruthless" wouldnt involve him trying to physically fight Bill toe to toe but rather using his powerosmic ruthlessly.
Originally posted by Naija boy
No circular logic coming from here
Originally posted by Naija boy
Most of the times thors resistance to direct matter manip has resulted from his being an asgardian physiology. Hence surfer wouldnt have been able to manipulate thor in the same way as bill.
And you draw this conclusion based on what? Has Surfer ever attempted to manipulate Thor’s composition?
Originally posted by Naija boySurfers doesnt have "one or two incidents" of upper highs. He has shown consistently to have durability above BRBs. Emphasis on consistent.Many of his low end feats have context surrounding them and even then they are still low feats and not applicable. In BRBs best portrayal(storm breaker arc) he still did not display durability equal to or above surfers.
Originally posted by Naija boyBRB outgunned stardust who is below surfer. Impressive but not enough to put him above surfer who was above stardust to begin with.
Originally posted by Naija boy
No one ever denied Bills strength advantage. Its certainly not as hugeas u wud like to portray it though.
Originally posted by Naija boyBill is more of a warrior than surfer obviously but he fights less intelligently. so it has its advantages as well as disadvantages
Originally posted by Naija boyBill is NOT equal to classic thor. sure there comparable but thor still has a few advantages over him.For one Bill brawls even more than thor. Then there are the advantages that thors asgardian physiology and lifeforce give him. further Surfer going "ruthless" wouldnt involve him trying to physically fight Bill toe to toe but rather using his powerosmic ruthlessly.
His on physical terms they are near equals, there is no point to look past their initial encounter to see it so. And their hammer are near equals.
Originally posted by id369
I do not need your acceptance to identify its source albeit you.
Im not the one that was dodging/misinterpreting scans/making huge assumptions etc.
Andd you draw this conclusion based on what? Has Surfer ever attempted to manipulate Thor’s composition?
Scans like this are eamples of thor resisting different forms of molecular manipulation and attributing it to his Asgardian physiology. its inherent.
Then Specify the overwhelming evidence to suggest he deserves a nod in regards to durability.
Taking a huge supernova with ease,Numerous Stars, Fighting inside blackhole with no problems (the same blackhole tht in BRBs best appearance he had no chance of surviving),Taking numerous attacks from Tenebrous and Aegis, Elder god with limitless power,Unilord,Mrungo Mu,Mephisto etc. Beta rays best feat is surviving a supernova (not as massive as the one surfer survived unscathed mind u). Clearly surfer has the advantage here with numerous superior feats.
Yet its enough to know, that Surfer will be feeling those blasts, and not merely restricted to physical blows.
No one ever claimed surfer wouldnt feel the blasts only that surfers output is superior that much is clear.
Its significant enough, to respectively warrant BRB the advantage if the match ever took place in close quarter combat.
Once more no one ever claimed otherwise. However there is simply no reason for surfer to physically take on BRB in CQC when he has many other options
For better or worse, those with Warrior mentality do better here in KMC then Alien Scientist.
Yup, thats why thor beats thanos. anyways such sweeping generalizations are indicative of nothing. A warrior mentality which induces said warrior to fight like a brawler has very cler disadvantages.
on physical terms they are near equals, there is no point to look past their initial encounter to see it so. And their hammer are near equals.
um.....Them being equals or nor equals in regards to strength/durability etc does not indicate they have the same physiology an molecular structure at all. Not even close
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
It's possible, but speculative. Surfer was linked to Odin at the time. And it's highly improbable that he'd make use of such a method in a fight.
During a part f the whole process, surfer clearly separated from Odin and began doing his own thing entirely as seen which caused Odin to say" Surfer ur power cosmic, what r u doing?". Also what im suggesting is that surfer simply uses his matter/energy manip powers offensively against BRB as he has done to numerous other characters(not that he replicate whatever he did to BRB in Asgard). And based on the fact that he has shown to be able to manipulate him before such an attack(matter energy manip) would be useful. Not neccessarily the be all end all of the fight, but still a way of broadening his attack options and hence an effective means of attack.
Originally posted by darthgoober
Sorry it took so long to reply...They've had one fight when Thor was at standard power back in Surfer vol. 1 #4 and it was when Surfer was depowered and then repowered by Loki AFTER Surfer beat him in a fight. So even if Thor was at normal levels, there's a good chance wasn't... at least in comparison to more recent standards(even before Annihilation). At the time Surfer said that he'd never felt so powerful, but there have been several instances since then of Surfer being surprised to finding out that he's more powerful than even he knew.
And even if we decided to take that showing at face value, it's offset by the encounter in which Surfer almost killed Thor with a warning blast.
Originally posted by darthgooberAnd an impressive showing as well, but did all that happen in the same fight where he was worried about being killed by a blackhole? It's an honest question, I can't remember and don't have the issue anymore.
[/B]
Indeed, Both Bill and Stardust where threaten by the event horizon.
Keep in mind, that the gravity within the Black Hole was tampered with by Asteorth.
Originally posted by darthgooberI really don't even know how I got sidetracked on points like this anyway other than my being high at the time, I think I forgot what I was arguing for a minute. Mental stuff is way too complicated to sort through.
You stated, that Surfer holds more advantages on BRB including the ones I had in questioned. Such as battle mentality, the will to fight, battle experience etc…
Originally posted by darthgooberOh no doubt, but Bill's even more of a brawler than Thor and his first thought in that situation is going to be to smash the box just like Thor's was. Even if it wasn't and he had both the knowledge and inclination to manipulate space(or something similar) right off to get the hammer, he'd still have to "will" the effect and he'd be defenseless against Surfer's blast in that situation. Assuming he made it through the onslaught and retrieved his hammer, Surfer could rinse and repeat as long as it took for those couple of blast to add up.
Bill would most likely call out his Hammer to return, and the hammer would do so independently. Separating Bill from his Hammer is not an easy task.
Originally posted by darthgooberHe moved around at lightspeed against Deathurge, initiated a lightspeed attack against Strangers fortress, and many of the other scans(such as his his blocking/dodging various energy blast after they're fired or grabbing/throwing Nova) are decent indications of lightspeed movement in combat as well.
[/B]
Originally posted by darthgooberA smart Surfer WOULDN'T just fly around BRB in a tight circle, he'd keep a small distance between them and dodge and weave between hammer throws and energy blast just as he did when he fought Thor the first time, but at lightspeed.
Originally posted by darthgooberYour scans feature a nice indication of combat speed but now you're ignoring each characters style. Surfer isn't the type to throw a bunch of punches and/or series of blocks when he decides to get serious and the writers drop the PIS because he doesn't HAVE to, he just uses blasts and dodges...
Surfer does not give me that indication of that level of fluid movements.
Originally posted by Naija boy
Im not the one that was dodging/misinterpreting scans/making huge assumptions etc.
Sure buddy.
Originally posted by Naija boyScans like this are eamples of thor resisting different forms of molecular manipulation and attributing it to his Asgardian physiology. its inherent.
Great, now factor in Surfer applying matter manipulation on Thor.
Originally posted by Naija boyTaking a huge supernova with ease,Numerous Stars, Fighting inside blackhole with no problems (the same blackhole tht in BRBs best appearance he had no chance of surviving),Taking numerous attacks from Tenebrous and Aegis, Elder god with limitless power,Unilord,Mrungo Mu,Mephisto etc. Beta rays best feat is surviving a supernova (not as massive as the one surfer survived unscathed mind u). Clearly surfer has the advantage here with numerous superior feats.
The Fact that Bill Survives shots from Galactus off sets, Silver Surfers encounters with Cosmic Forces.
You deem Surfer surviving a Supernova unscratched a superior feat. While Bill drifted in space at the core of the of the Sun going Nova, woke up and simply flew away unhindered. Other then the magnitude, clearly neither where bothered by such threat.
Do you understand that these feats, are not isolated events where you cheery pick one after another. But in a single arc one following the later. That is what makes Bill durability impressive.
Originally posted by Naija boyOnce more no one ever claimed otherwise. However there is simply no reason for surfer to physically take on BRB in CQC when he has many other options
Surfer has a long history of attempting bull a rush to overpower his opponents. Don’t try to opt out, as if its not within his character to attempt so.
Originally posted by Naija boyYup, thats why thor beats thanos. anyways such sweeping generalizations are indicative of nothing. A warrior mentality which induces said warrior to fight like a brawler has very cler disadvantages.
Bad Analogy, Thanos is a scientific/warrior. He did peruse battle tactics to contemplate his education.
Originally posted by Naija boyum.....Them being equals or nor equals in regards to strength/durability etc does not indicate they have the same physiology an molecular structure at all. Not even close [/B]
That’s not the point. The purpose of brining up their physical stats, and their weapons the wield is to show forth how currently Bill rivals a Classic Thor. The same classic Thor that gives Surfer trouble in combat.
Originally posted by darthgoober
Why not? It's definitely high end for Surfer, but I'm not supporting the high end over the low, I'm just pointing out that the statements made in each encounter balance out. No I don't believe could kill Thor with one blast like Thor said, but I also don't think that Thor's hammer is more powerful than Surfer's Power Cosmic like Norrin said either.
Why not?
Are you joking me?
That level of power, one shot Thor?
Lol. Thor is known to seriously exaggerate etc. Apparently the Hulk is the strongest opponent he has faced, but so is Beta Ray Bill, so is the Juggernaut, so is Kurse etc.
Thor's hammer is more powerful than Norrin's power cosmic, at that time at least in my opinion. Simply how the two were written, justifies it. I've seen people debate it, but I don't think it's too applicable to the Classic Silver Surfer who is free to roam through the Stars.
Originally posted by id369
Surfer isn’t going to kill Thor with a warning shot. While his power may or may not be inferior to Thors, is up to debate. So yes his comments in regards to power scaling should be taken with a grain of salt.
Originally posted by id369
Indeed, Both Bill and Stardust where threaten by the event horizon.Keep in mind, that the gravity within the Black Hole was tampered with by Asteorth.
Originally posted by id369
You stated, that Surfer holds more advantages on BRB including the ones I had in questioned. Such as battle mentality, the will to fight, battle experience etc…
Originally posted by id369
Bill would most likely call out his Hammer to return, and the hammer would do so independently. Separating Bill from his Hammer is not an easy task.
Originally posted by id369
Point taken.
Originally posted by id369
I am not so confident, can swim with out getting wet. Due to the fact, that BRB battle honed skills have to be factored in. Hopefully around June, Marvel will answer this for me.
Originally posted by id369
The Scan of the Saints where just an example. The Saints willingly can travel billions of Galaxy in a matter of minutes. During combat, they can perceive every action at faster then light speeds. Its an example of a character, that can willingly move fluidly at c with no staling on the go.Surfer does not give me that indication of that level of fluid movements.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Why not?Are you joking me?
That level of power, one shot Thor?
Lol. Thor is known to seriously exaggerate etc. Apparently the Hulk is the strongest opponent he has faced, but so is Beta Ray Bill, so is the Juggernaut, so is Kurse etc.
Thor's hammer is more powerful than Norrin's power cosmic, at that time at least in my opinion. Simply how the two were written, justifies it. I've seen people debate it, but I don't think it's too applicable to the Classic Silver Surfer who is free to roam through the Stars.
Originally posted by id369
Great, now factor in Surfer applying matter manipulation on Thor.
What? The point of those scans was to show that surfer CANT matter manipulate thor because of his physiology. The same is not the case with Beta Ray and thats the point.
The Black hole, that Stardust created was tampered with by Asteorth. Because of it the gravity was greatly intensified by it. The Fact that Bill Survives shots from Galactus off sets, Silver Surfers encounters with Cosmic Forces. You deem Surfer surviving a Supernova unscratched a superior feat. While Bill drifted in space at the core of the of the Sun going Nova, woke up and simply flew away unhindered. Other then the magnitude, clearly neither where bothered by such threat. Do you understand that these feats, are not isolated events where you cheery pick one after another. But in a single arc one following the later. That is what makes Bill durability impressive.
It wasnt mentioned that the gravity of the Blackhole was intensified at all let alone "greatly". All that happened was that the direction of the pull was reversed. Bill could not take such pressure at all even in his best portrayal. Further Bill took a shot from Galactus which Galactus was using to destroy ships and was more of a blast that is used to eliminate pests and certainly nothing very powerful at all. Its no different from the similar mild blasts that the likes of professor hulk and even surfer himself have taken with little effect. It is not at all the same as taking a more powerful attack from galactus or equivalent to taking numerous blasts from beings of that level(Tenebrous,Aegis,Elder God etc) while in sustained direct combat. BRB taking a supernova(much smaller than surfers whose had galaxy spanning shockwaves) and a mild shot from Galactus in the same arc is impressive but doesnt come anywhere close to fighting inside a blackhole, or fighting and taking numerous attacks from the likes Tenebrous and Aegis,Mephisto,Unilord etc
He took Ravenous in such a manner. He took on Cable in such a manner. He took on Nova in such a manner. He took Skaar in such a manner. Surfer has a long history of attempting bull a rush to overpower his opponents. Don’t try to opt out, as if its not within his character to attempt so.
Against Ravenous surfer used blasts and energy attacks more than anything else. Heck he even used forceields
He took did bullrush nova but that is not an example o engaging in sustained CQC but rather using his speed to launch a swit physical attack. If he used the same method against BRB, it would undoubtedly be effective. (Nova has better reactions)
Ill give u the skaar instance. However surfer has a FAR longer history of using his blasts and other powers during fights than he has physically brawling it out. When u then ad that to the fact that he will be ighting to the best of his abilities as well its clear that he wont be physically brawling it ou at all
Bad Analogy, Thanos is a scientific/warrior. He did peruse battle tactics to contemplate his education.
Thanos intelligence has beneffitted him the most in comics. A brawling warrior mentality certainly hasnt.
That’s not the point. The purpose of brining up their physical stats, and their weapons the wield is to show forth how currently Bill rivals a Classic Thor. The same classic Thor that gives Surfer trouble in combat
Regarding their basic physical stats like strength and durability, thor and BRB are near equal indeed. However when we take a more in depth look at it, Thor has advantages over BRB such as speed and other advantages which his being n asgardian gives him. Thor also uses his hammer more efectively than BRB as well. So attempting to base ur entire argument on surfers performance against thor is just innaccurate. Not to mention that surfer and regular thor have had no conclusive fights in the first place.
Originally posted by darthgoober
😎Did Bill know about that?
Sure originally Stardust created the black hole, and warns Bill not to get pulled in in the event horizon or else there is no escape.
http://i43.tinypic.com/21myd21.jpg
Then Asteorth tempers with it. Stardust then implies if they are pulled in the would be rendered into sub atomic particles.
http://i43.tinypic.com/2i768w9.jpg
http://i41.tinypic.com/34pi2j5.jpg
Originally posted by darthgoober
[B]Has that ever happened with Bill or Thor? I mean where it comes back independently? The only instance I can think of happened during the Infinity Gauntlet and it took over a minute.
Originally posted by darthgooberI'm not saying that Surfer's not going to get tagged, just that he'd get tagged LESS. Even if we assumed the two to be equal in attack speed, damage output, and durability Surfer getting tagged less often than Bill means that Bill's going to go down first more often than not.
If that’s how you equate the match coming down to. After 6 pages, of debating their isn’t much for me to point out otherwise that will change your mind. Personally I don’t think, speed is going to be a heavy factor to determine such results. Don’t get me wrong, it’s a factor but not a heavy factor that Bill could not compensate with battle honed reflex.
Originally posted by darthgooberSurfer doesn't need that unquantified level of speed for it to give him an advantage over Bill, he just needs to be faster than Bill himself. As rare as Surfer's feats of combat speed are, Bill's are pretty much nonexistant if I'm not mistaken.
Other then keeping up with Stardust. No I cant say, I have seen him utilize super speed in a battle.
Originally posted by Naija boy
What? The point of those scans was to show that surfer CANT matter manipulate thor because of his physiology. The same is not the case with Beta Ray and thats the point.
My point is;
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll121/kingaholu/Thor%20feats/Thorimmunetoagingattack.jpg?t=1239860685
Rays meant to progressed a natural age, will not work on an immortal.
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll121/kingaholu/Thor%20feats/Thorresistsbeingsenttolimbo.jpg
Space Phantom ability to imitate only works on Humans. Bill is an artificial Karbonite life form.
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll121/kingaholu/Thor%20feats/Thorresistshismoleculesbeingfrozen.jpg?t=1239860864
Freezing the molecules, is not matter manipulation.
My point is, when you actually have a basis to draw a comparison from. Do so, preferably one where Surfer has applied it on both consciously.
Otherwise I will still fall back, on the fact that the Hammers enchantments are suffice to protect them from such means, given that they manipulate energy.
Originally posted by Naija boyIt wasnt mentioned that the gravity of the Blackhole was intensified at all let alone "greatly". All that happened was that the direction of the pull was reversed. Bill could not take such pressure at all even in his best portrayal. Further Bill took a shot from Galactus which Galactus was using to destroy ships and was more of a blast that is used to eliminate pests and certainly nothing very powerful at all. Its no different from the similar mild blasts that the likes of professor hulk and even surfer himself have taken with little effect. It is not at all the same as taking a more powerful attack from galactus or equivalent to taking numerous blasts from beings of that level(Tenebrous,Aegis,Elder God etc) while in sustained direct combat. BRB taking a supernova(much smaller than surfers whose had galaxy spanning shockwaves) and a mild shot from Galactus in the same arc is impressive but doesnt come anywhere close to fighting inside a blackhole, or fighting and taking numerous attacks from the likes Tenebrous and Aegis,Mephisto,Unilord etc
Yet your are wrong, take a good look at the pick before and after Asteroth. You will notice that the black hole is rotating, in the same direction. Emphasizing again, that the twisting effect was meant to intensify the Even Horizon.
Your quick to jump boat, and point out that Galactus Attack did not destroy the Planet for dead obvious reasons. Yet the shoots from Aegis and Tenebrous can not necessarily be quantified. Other then the fact that Surfer was nearly put down by 4 shoots, one energy blast barely made a dent in on a small satellite. And look at Surfer utterly shattered. While Bill took A Blast and Hand Clap from Galactus, a Super Nova at its core, and the destruction of a planet…badly hurt but not shattered.
Originally posted by Naija boyAgainst Ravenous surfer used blasts and energy attacks more than anything else. Heck he even used forceields
He took did bullrush nova but that is not an example o engaging in sustained CQC but rather using his speed to launch a swit physical attack. If he used the same method against BRB, it would undoubtedly be effective. (Nova has better reactions)
Ill give u the skaar instance. However surfer has a FAR longer history of using his blasts and other powers during fights than he has physically brawling it out. When u then ad that to the fact that he will be ighting to the best of his abilities as well its clear that he wont be physically brawling it ou at all
Yes, some diversity took place. But in all instances the matches took place at close range, with moments where Surfer attempted to physically overpower its opponents.
The point is, Surfer likes to take fights up close and personal. A clear no no, against Bill.
Originally posted by Naija boyRegarding their basic physical stats like strength and durability, thor and BRB are near equal indeed. However when we take a more in depth look at it, Thor has advantages over BRB such as speed and other advantages which his being n asgardian gives him. Thor also uses his hammer more efectively than BRB as well. So attempting to base ur entire argument on surfers performance against thor is just innaccurate. Not to mention that surfer and regular thor have had no conclusive fights in the first place. [/B]
What’s inaccurate is me attempting to base all of my argument on how Surfer handles Thor. And for all the specifics you bring up, that set apart Bill from Thor. They where not direct factors, when seen on panel.
