Anakin Skywalker vs. Mace Windu

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Form 5 was formed by Soresu masters as a continuation of soresu, but with an emphasis on attacking back. It was seen not to be practicle to wait for an opening to attack.

Soresu deflects away randomly whilst Form 5 deflects the attack back at the Opponent, and Djem So after doing this and throwing the opponent off balance, continues to leash out powerful attacks to completely dominate the opponent. Theres nothing that suggests this wuldnt work on Vapaad.

As for Mace's multiple forms, are you suggesting hes going to slip in and out of vapaad? because if he does hes going to lose any speed or power advantage he may have.
also whatever form he uses, Soresu is the Best for defence, and Djem So the best for Deflecting Maces attack back at him.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well the previous portions of the fight suggest that even if Dooku did try to kill anakin at that point, he probably culdnt considering Anakin was lying on the floor and Dooku still culdnt kill him. As long as Anakin has his Saber hes still in the picture.

Originally posted by Me
So you agree that he didn't need to hold the hologram, which meant when Anakin was lying on the ground he could have done something other than pull it out, right? Like, choke him with the Force, or pull away his lightsaber and electrocute him, or just shove him around for fun? And since we've already seen that Dooku holds the clear advantage in the Force department - which you've admitted to - we know he'd be able to do all of that, so we can conclude that Dooku could easily have killed Anakin had he been trying as hard as he could.

Follow?

And the animated movie made it clear even as of the Clone Wars Anakin was a match for Dooku in Sabers at least. Which means even as of the clone wars Anakin was most probably already the 3rd Most Powerful Jedi after Yoda and Mace. Then by ROTS he was even more powerful.

Well it didnt stop Anakin even in the animated movie. and in ROTS novel when Anakin had let himself loose Dooku "used all the power of the darkside" to throw a piece of a durasteel table at him but Anakin simply "Smashed it aside".. There was simply no stopping him at that point.

Djem So is not a specific form itself. It is a variant of Form 5. A variant specifically adapted for duelling. Vapaad is deadly, but no where is it said to be best specifically for saber to saber duels.

Mace is not proven to be better at any of those things than the person who is said to be Possibly the Most Poweful, the Fastest and the Strongest Jedi of Any Generation.

When Anakin punches holes through durasteel, lands six blows on an equally powerful brawler before he can blink, is noted to be a "high level [master] of multiple forms," or does anything considerably impressive with telekinesis while not under the influence of the dark side, you let me know.

Mace himself argues Anakin is arguably the most powerful jedi alive as of ROTS.

And hes certainly not Stronger than the guy who completely Overpowered Count Dooku,

and the guy who gets Stronger and Stronger as the fight goes on.

Form 5 was created by Masters of Soresu, who felt a more offensive strategy was needed to actually win a fight.

and the darkjedibrotherhood site says you have to perfect soresu before mastering djem so due to the nature of form 5 being a continuation of soresu.

and ALL sites say Anakin had Mastered both aspects of Form 5, Shien and Djem So.

Your gna say its not cannon but where did you get you have to be "a master of multiple forms" to master form 7, because i can only find that on sites like wookipedia.

also Vader was learning Juyo by RODV. So he must have been a master of multiple forms by then as well. So its quite clear he must of at Least Mastered his Own form by ROTS, as RODV does not take place long after ROTS.

They dnt get past his saber defences. Kicking is something different. Otherwise your claiming Obiwans soresu defences were breached several times by Anakin when he kept kicking him, and by Dooku when he foprce choked him???

You're limiting everything here to a pure lightsaber duel, which is retarded. The only duels in the entire saga to not feature melee or Force attacks of some sort in the midst of combat are the AotC ones; fists and the Force are factors here, and Mace is better with both.

Anakins proved several times Kicking and Force pushing him doesnt stop him. And for GOD's sakes Obiwas didnt outduel Anakin. He tactically outsmarted a guy whos head was in a complete mess.

Good job.

Obi Wan had him at his mercy when he did a tirck on his mechanical arm. Thats hardly the defintion of outdueling someone.

Stop making excuses.

Oh and just before that Anakin force pushed Kenobi and had him completely winded(the novel suggests Anakin was better with the force than Obiwan).

Youve probably not read much on Djem So. Its lethal in sword fighting.
If you have the Physical Strength to use it, then its probably the best duelling form to use, even better than Makashi. Thats why of all the forms Kasim advised Bane to use Djem So as he had the Strngth and Power to make the most of it.

I hate this: no one is saying interesting things, [nowhere else] has any threads and I can't see an argument against Mace here. This isn't any fun at all and] I have to study moar ecological science tonight than I learned during class the past two years. Ludicrous.

Yeah, he's substantially less fun than he was yesterday. Maybe it's an even day odd day thing.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yes i feel like the guy who completely overpowered Count Dooku is easily in the same league as Mace. Unless your claiming Count Dooku is no where near Mace's league, then I can understand why you wuldnt think Anakin would even hav a chance against Mace.

And no being as Powerful as Mace doesnt mean you can take down Palpatine, because only Vapaad can form a Superconducting loop to temporarly put the user in the same league as someone like Palpatine. This is where ABC doesnt work. However the ABC logic does work with Anakin, Dooku and Mace in the sense that Anakin must at least be as Powerful as Mace(whether he beats him in a fight or not).

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Dood. Dood! Anakin overpowered Dooku due a sudden increase in power, strength, precog. skill etc. He achieved this through "teh Z0ne." Which was a Dark mentality. Which is gonna f/uck Anakin over when Mace Vaapad's his ass.

according to the novel he stopped holding back. previously he was always holding back.
and so fine he uses his rage, so mace will match him in strength. Then its going to be Vapaad vs. Djem So. I dnt see any evidence that Vapaad would prevail considering Djem So is designed for duelling. Perhaps Vapaad will match it at most.
and even if Mace wins due to Vappad's metaphysical it just shows Mace might win a fight same way he won agianst Sidious. It doesnt show Mace is more powerful or outclasses anakin in any way(apart from metaphysical properties in fighting against rage)

Originally posted by Eminence
N-Canon scene; nothing of the sort happened in the movie, so it's a contradiction by the novel.

The novel gives a more detailed version than the film. doesnt mean you can dismiss the novel. its cannon.

Originally posted by Eminence
Vaapad was conceived by a high level master of multiple forms and perfected with the assistance of a high level, legendary master of all forms. The idea that it is a comparatively inferior dueling form is ridiculous, and what's even more ridiculous is that

Do you know most jedis dnt train to sword fight each other but to fight droids and stuff. theres nothing anywhere that Vapaad was designed for duelling. Im sure its a great duelling form. But I seriously doubt its superior to Djem So in technical duellin skill.

and your talking about Sora Bulq(with the assistance of a high level, legendary master of all forms.) right?? yeah Bulq was completely outduelled by Dooku when using Vapaad! Because Makashi is simply superior to Vapaad in duelling because it was designed for that!! As Djem So was Specifically designed for that too, and is known to even overpower makashi.

Originally posted by Eminence
When Anakin punches holes through durasteel, lands six blows on an equally powerful brawler before he can blink, is noted to be a "high level [master] of multiple forms," or does anything considerably impressive with telekinesis while not under the influence of the dark side, you let me know.

WHO CARES ABOUT HIGH LEVEL MASTER OF MULTIPLE FORMS??!!!
SO was Sora Bulq, and Dooku tooled him!! Thats not gna help, and until you can tell me which forms hes specifically mastered, youve got no argument. Mace isnt gna slip in and out of Vapaad.. this is gna be Vapaad vs. Djem So in Duelling alone.

Telekinisis will be moot, as Anakins proven he can take telekenetic attacks form Dooku.

And who says its all about feats?? when have we seen Yoda or Sidious punch through durasteel?? But by the way Anakin did punch the crap out of an IG-88(type) Bounty hunter droid.. Anakins strngth and speed has been reffered to as possibly the best of all the jedis. Thats all we need to know. Have you seen how fast Anakins been shown in the new animation. Was Mace shown to be significantly faster?? No!

Under the growing influence of the dark side.

Originally posted by Eminence
The fight probably won't last long enough for him to capitalize on that, thanks to Mace's significantly superior speed. If it does, there's still shatterpoint.

theres nothing to say or show him to be significantly faster. If Mace is faster it will be slightly faster at most, as we already know hes no where near as fast as Sidious and we already know Anakin was a bit fast for Dooku to handle(whose been toe to toe with Yoda's speed)...

Also Djem So aims to dominate the opponent... which will nullify any speed advantage Mace may have.

Originally posted by Eminence
That doesn't mean Anakin needs to have mastered Soresu too, nimrod. It means the creators of the form did.

Dumbass it mean Djem So by its nature has the defences of Soresu incprorated into it. So it doesnt matter.

Originally posted by Eminence
It was noted that he drew on techniques from the various forms and blended them into his own, not that he mastered any them.

Including Juyo, for which hed have to be "a multiple master of multiple forms" like you keep going on about. Your being a hypocryte with your own arguments. Using them when suiting you. But denying them when not convinient to you.

Theres So much Proof of Anakins Mastery. Dooku never saw a better user of Djem So. He gave Anakin more credit in his style than he did Obi1 on his.
Anakin and Obi-wan were identical balde for blade. 2 complementary halves of the same warrior. By RODV he must have had to been a high level master of multiple forms. Not long after ROTS.
If thats what your argument is based on, that Anakin lacks technical skill, then your argument is Total Rubbish!!

Originally posted by Eminence
The novel doesn't detail the part where they're both evenly matched in the Force contest.

Yes the novel shows Anakin to be better. Even in the movie, Obiwan gets winded from the force contest, while Anakin doesnt even look like it affected him, and stright away hes all over Obiwan.
The odd force puch from mace will do nothing.

Originally posted by Eminence
I know what it is, thanks. As I said, I'm not familiar with the bullshit "deflekt powur" version that you've dreamed up.

So you dnt even know what your talking about then.
Form 5 was designed to deflesct attacks back on to the opponent, instead of deflecting them away randomly like Soresu.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
according to the novel he stopped holding back. previously he was always holding back.

Can it be that certain concepts, for example "cause and effect" are completely foreign to you? Anakin didn't just "stop" to hold back. He was taunted to unleash his anger by a person he hated more than anybody else. You still act as if he could reproduce this state at will. His duel against Obi-Wan shows quite clearly that he's not able to do the job, proving your basic assumption wrong and thereby your entire argument.

and so fine he uses his rage, so mace will match him in strength. Then its going to be Vapaad vs. Djem So. I dnt see any evidence that Vapaad would prevail considering Djem So is designed for duelling. Perhaps Vapaad will match it at most.

This is laughable. Yoda calls Vaapad the deadliest lightsaber form there is - apparently for a reason. He even outright states that Mace Windu would be the only one to stop somebody like Depa Billaba (a Vaapad master). Was it a Djem So user that overpowered Darth Sidious and reached a stalemate with Count Dooku in terms of lightsaber mastery? No? It was Mace Windu? The Vaapad user? Thanks for the clarification.

Which is still ignoring the fact that Mace Windu had mastered Djem So, giving him a natural advantage because he knows Anakin's technique while Anakin knows jack shit about Vaapad.

and even if Mace wins due to Vappad's metaphysical it just shows Mace might win a fight same way he won agianst Sidious. It doesnt show Mace is more powerful or outclasses anakin in any way(apart from metaphysical properties in fighting against rage)

I'm again waiting for you showing us where Anakin puts his fists straight through durasteel or breaks somebodys arm buy just grapping it. Until you can come up with something like that, the source material suggests that Mace Windu is - physically - stronger than Anakin Skywalker. I'm afraid.

The novel gives a more detailed version than the film. doesnt mean you can dismiss the novel. its cannon.

No. The novel outright contradicts the movie version of the duel, a situation in which the movie - plain and simply - overwrites the novel. Check the Lucasfilm Canon Policy for details.

Do you know most jedis dnt train to sword fight each other but to fight droids and stuff. theres nothing anywhere that Vapaad was designed for duelling. Im sure its a great duelling form. But I seriously doubt its superior to Djem So in technical duellin skill.

Yeah. You are aware of the fact that Djem So is a form which was tailored for deflecting blaster bolts, right? An in terms of duelling ability, I'd prefer unconnected fast movements over baseball-bat swinging action each day. Just think about it.

and your talking about Sora Bulq(with the assistance of a high level, legendary master of all forms.) right?? yeah Bulq was completely outduelled by Dooku when using Vapaad! Because Makashi is simply superior to Vapaad in duelling because it was designed for that!! As Djem So was Specifically designed for that too, and is known to even overpower makashi.

I'd really love to hear what Dooku's mastery of Makashi had to do with him owning Sora Bulq using force lightning. I mean, hey, is there some wierd Makashi property that grants the user +10 force lightning damage or what?

WHO CARES ABOUT HIGH LEVEL MASTER OF MULTIPLE FORMS??!!!
SO was Sora Bulq, and Dooku tooled him!! Thats not gna help, and until you can tell me which forms hes specifically mastered, youve got no argument. Mace isnt gna slip in and out of Vapaad.. this is gna be Vapaad vs. Djem So in Duelling alone.

No. No. And...no.

a)
Dooku tooled Sora using the force. I don't see where you want to draw conclusions to the lightsaber ability of the combatants there.

b)
Mastery of multiple forms doesn't mean you have to "slip in and out of forms". It just equips you with a decent amount of knowledge regarding those forms.

c)
It would be Djem So VS Vaapad and the Shatterpoint ability. You really have enough confidence in Anakin's abilities to think about him being able to overcome the guy that overpowered Darth Sidious? Thus contradicting George Lucas himself? You really think the guy that has "BMF" written on the activation plate of his lightsaber will go down against Anakin Skywalker? Lmao.

Telekinisis will be moot, as Anakins proven he can take telekenetic attacks form Dooku.

Where exactly? I hope you're not referring to the scene in the RotS novel that is retconned by the movie...

And who says its all about feats?? when have we seen Yoda or Sidious punch through durasteel?? But by the way Anakin did punch the crap out of an IG-88(type) Bounty hunter droid.. Anakins strngth and speed has been reffered to as possibly the best of all the jedis. Thats all we need to know. Have you seen how fast Anakins been shown in the new animation. Was Mace shown to be significantly faster?? No!

No. Mace was just shown to grind an entire droid army into tiny metal pieces using nothing but his fists...

theres nothing to say or show him to be significantly faster. If Mace is faster it will be slightly faster at most, as we already know hes no where near as fast as Sidious and we already know Anakin was a bit fast for Dooku to handle(whose been toe to toe with Yoda's speed)...

Lmao. Firstly: Mace is as fast as Sidious. The novel and the movie make that pretty clear. Second: Anakin is faster than Dooku? Where exactly? He's stronger, when you refer to grapping Dooku's arm and cutting his hands off - faster? And Dooku on one level with Yoda in terms of speed? You must have missed AotC, DR and pretty much any damn source that depicts Yoda fighting. The little green fellow manages to deflect more than 40 blaster bolts in less than 30 seconds in the scene in RotS, in which he and Obi-Wan fight their way into the temple. You really want to tell us that Dooku (or Anakin for that matter) could pull something like that off? Prove up or shut up, I'd say.

Also Djem So aims to dominate the opponent... which will nullify any speed advantage Mace may have.

What a great argument? Vaapad aims to enjoy a fight and win it. This will nullify anything. Huargh. See...I can make up bullshit myself.

Dumbass it mean Djem So by its nature has the defences of Soresu incprorated into it. So it doesnt matter.

Excuse me, Lord Blahblah. You are aware of the fact that the lightsaber forms respect combat philosophys and that Djem So and Soresu happen to be the exact opposites in terms of philosophy? So I wonder, how someone should blend them? Reverse Offense? Aggressive blocking? 🙄

And it should be noted that it's explicitely stated that after Mustafar, Vader started to encorporate Soresu movements into this style. How does that fit into the picture if Djem So already includes Soresu, huh? Oh right: It doesn't because you're simply wrong on that issue.

Dooku never saw a better user of Djem So.

Oh. How many Djem So users has Dooku seen, eh?

Form 5 was designed to deflesct attacks back on to the opponent, instead of deflecting them away randomly like Soresu.

Nope. It was designed to deflect blaster bolts back on the opponent, not attacks in general. So unless Mace decides to attack Anakin with a blaster rifle...

Nai, I'm mostly staying out of this, but are you really going to make the argument 'how many Djem So users has Dooku seen?' The man's a combat veteran, a legendary saber instructor and made sure to keep up with dueling abilities in an age that included Agen Kolar. If Dooku believes Anakin to be the best Djem So user he's ever seen, that does mean a lot.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Can it be that certain concepts, for example "cause and effect" are completely foreign to you? Anakin didn't just "stop" to hold back. He was taunted to unleash his anger by a person he hated more than anybody else. You still act as if he could reproduce this state at will. His duel against Obi-Wan shows quite clearly that he's not able to do the job, proving your basic assumption wrong and thereby your entire argument.

He was also a match for Dooku in Sabers during the clone wars. So hes at least that good on a normal day. The ROTS fight against Dooku showed what he is capable of when he stops holding back, and unleashes that Rage of his coupled with his practically unlimited force reserves.

Originally posted by Borbarad
This is laughable. Yoda calls Vaapad the deadliest lightsaber form there is - apparently for a reason. He even outright states that Mace Windu would be the only one to stop somebody like Depa Billaba (a Vaapad master). Was it a Djem So user that overpowered Darth Sidious and reached a stalemate with Count Dooku in terms of lightsaber mastery? No? It was Mace Windu? The Vaapad user? Thanks for the clarification

Deadliest is a bit vague. Deadliest in what? Duelling technical skill? Not neceesarily. Each form has its strengths. Each form has is the best at something. Makashi at Duelling Skill. Soresu at defence. Form 5 at deflecting attacks back at the opponent. Vapaad is deadly because of the Speed and Power it gives the user, as well as very technically skilled. However that doesnt make it as good as Soresu at defending, or as skilled as Makashi at duelling, or as good at deflecting attacks back to the opponent as Form 5.
And are you suggesting Yoda culdnt stop Depa. As your saying only Mace windu culd?!
Another Vapaad Master who actually developed it along with Mace is Sora Bulq who actually got tooled in duelling by Count Dooku. Why if Vapaad is the deadliest?? Because Makashi is better for pure blade to blade duelling.
And as for Overpowering Sidious, Anakin never faced him in a lightsaber duel. Of course Sidious would tool Anakin with the Force. In fact he even had Mace with his lightning which was "Beyond Vapaad"(ROTS Novel). But in a Saber fight alone accroding to Nick Gillard Anakin is "Up there with Sidious". Anakin, Mace, Yoda and Sidious were all given level9 ratings by him. And thats how he choreographed the G-Cannon saber fights of the movies.
As for matching Dooku in Sabers... After Anakin was knighted Dooku never proved himself superior in Sabers to Anakin. He matched him in the clone wars and destroyed him in ROTS.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Which is still ignoring the fact that Mace Windu had mastered Djem So, giving him a natural advantage because he knows Anakin's technique while Anakin knows jack shit about Vaapad.

Prove Mace mastered Djem So and not Shien. Actually prove he mastered any aspect of Form 5 first, and then prove it was Djem So as most users of form 5 used shien.
And Dooku also knew of Djem So.. didnt help him much.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Yeah. You are aware of the fact that Djem So is a form which was tailored for deflecting blaster bolts, right? An in terms of duelling ability, I'd prefer unconnected fast movements over baseball-bat swinging action each day. Just think about it..

NO. Wrong. Shien was. Your proving your arguing without knowing about Form 5. Go read more about it. Djem So was a variant of Form 5 to be applied in duelling.

Originally posted by Borbarad
I'd really love to hear what Dooku's mastery of Makashi had to do with him owning Sora Bulq using force lightning. I mean, hey, is there some wierd Makashi property that grants the user +10 force lightning damage or what

What are you talking about? He was completely outduelling him before the FL. He even disarmed him of his Shoto, and was clear the whole time Dooku was in complete control of the duel.

Originally posted by Borbarad
It would be Djem So VS Vaapad and the Shatterpoint ability. You really have enough confidence in Anakin's abilities to think about him being able to overcome the guy that overpowered Darth Sidious? Thus contradicting George Lucas himself? You really think the guy that has "BMF" written on the activation plate of his lightsaber will go down against Anakin Skywalker? Lmao.

For GOD's sakes.. Mace has a better shot at sidious because he can temporarily match his speed and strength via a superconducting loop. A>B>C argument not working here. iv expained this a million times. why do i have to repeat myself??!

Also Lucas says you have to be mace or yoda to compete with palpatine. he didnt say you have to be yoda or sidious to compete with mace.

Maybe Mace is better with the force than anakin, so good enough to compete with sidious, whilst anakin is not. But that doesnt mean anakin is not good enough to go up against mace.
Oh and the guy who has BMF written on his wallet had to beg Lucas for a part in the prequels. Now thats Lmao!

Originally posted by Borbarad
Lmao. Firstly: Mace is as fast as Sidious. The novel and the movie make that pretty clear. Second: Anakin is faster than Dooku? Where exactly? He's stronger, when you refer to grapping Dooku's arm and cutting his hands off - faster? And Dooku on one level with Yoda in terms of speed?

Can you read? the novel makes it clear that Mace accepts Palpatines faster, so creates the superconducting loop between the 2 of them so he can match him in that. Iv expalined this to you before. Why do I have to repeat myself??
Anakin faster than dooku "that blue blade of his was moving faster and faster until Dooku saw the room through an electric blue haze"
I said Dooku went toe-to-toe with Yoda, so had the speed to compete, not that hes as fast.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Nope. It was designed to deflect blaster bolts back on the opponent, not attacks in general. So unless Mace decides to attack Anakin with a blaster rifle...

No that was shien. Djem So was the same philosophy but a variant to be applied specifically for duelling.
Im bored by the number of times iv explained this now.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Deadliest is a bit vague. Deadliest in what? Duelling technical skill? Not neceesarily. Each form has its strengths. Each form has is the best at something. Makashi at Duelling Skill. Soresu at defence. Form 5 at deflecting attacks back at the opponent. Vapaad is deadly because of the Speed and Power it gives the user, as well as very technically skilled. However that doesnt make it as good as Soresu at defending, or as skilled as Makashi at duelling, or as good at deflecting attacks back to the opponent as Form 5.
And are you suggesting Yoda culdnt stop Depa. As your saying only Mace windu culd?!
Another Vapaad Master who actually developed it along with Mace is Sora Bulq who actually got tooled in duelling by Count Dooku. Why if Vapaad is the deadliest?? Because Makashi is better for pure blade to blade duelling.
And as for Overpowering Sidious, Anakin never faced him in a lightsaber duel. Of course Sidious would tool Anakin with the Force. In fact he even had Mace with his lightning which was "Beyond Vapaad"(ROTS Novel). But in a Saber fight alone accroding to Nick Gillard Anakin is "Up there with Sidious". Anakin, Mace, Yoda and Sidious were all given level9 ratings by him. And thats how he choreographed the G-Cannon saber fights of the movies.
As for matching Dooku in Sabers... After Anakin was knighted Dooku never proved himself superior in Sabers to Anakin. He matched him in the clone wars and destroyed him in ROTS.

Prove Mace mastered Djem So and not Shien. Actually prove he mastered any aspect of Form 5 first, and then prove it was Djem So as most users of form 5 used shien.
And Dooku also knew of Djem So.. didnt help him much.

NO. Wrong. Shien was. Your proving your arguing without knowing about Form 5. Go read more about it. Djem So was a variant of Form 5 to be applied in duelling.

What are you talking about? He was completely outduelling him before the FL. He even disarmed him of his Shoto, and was clear the whole time Dooku was in complete control of the duel.

For GOD's sakes.. Mace has a better shot at sidious because he can temporarily match his speed and strength via a superconducting loop. A>B>C argument not working here. iv expained this a million times. why do i have to repeat myself??!

Also Lucas says you have to be mace or yoda to compete with palpatine. he didnt say you have to be yoda or sidious to compete with mace.

Maybe Mace is better with the force than anakin, so good enough to compete with sidious, whilst anakin is not. But that doesnt mean anakin is not good enough to go up against mace.
Oh and the guy who has BMF written on his wallet had to beg Lucas for a part in the prequels. Now thats Lmao!

Can you read? the novel makes it clear that Mace accepts Palpatines faster, so creates the superconducting loop between the 2 of them so he can match him in that. Iv expalined this to you before. Why do I have to repeat myself??
Anakin faster than dooku "that blue blade of his was moving faster and faster until Dooku saw the room through an electric blue haze"
I said Dooku went toe-to-toe with Yoda, so had the speed to compete, not that hes as fast.

No that was shien. Djem So was the same philosophy but a variant to be applied specifically for duelling.
Im bored by the number of times iv explained this now.

And Sora Bulq never "mastered" Vaapad. It mastered him. You recall it driving him to the Dark Side?

And are you not listening? Mace IS A MASTER OF EVERY FORM. Anything Anakin throws at him with Djem So is gonna be something Mace is familiar. The same can not be said about Anakin reacting to Vaapad. What's Anakin gonna do when he's fighting to the death a style he knows jack-f/ucking-shit about?

And to answer my own question, no, you're not listening. Vaapad doesn't just turn Mace's inner Darkness to strength, it also reflects the opponent's Darkness back at them. If Mace taunts Anakin into "teh Z0ne" (why a Jedi would so such a thing is ridiculous anyways), then Mace will reflect "teh Z0ne's" Dark strength back on to Anakin.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Are you injecting your own feelings towards how Vaapad works to canon? Deadliest form is the deadliest form. Vaapad=deadlier than Djem So.

And Sora Bulq never "mastered" Vaapad. It mastered him. You recall it driving him to the Dark Side?

And are you not listening? Mace [B]IS A MASTER OF EVERY FORM. Anything Anakin throws at him with Djem So is gonna be something Mace is familiar. The same can not be said about Anakin reacting to Vaapad. What's Anakin gonna do when he's fighting to the death a style he knows jack-f/ucking-shit about?

And to answer my own question, no, you're not listening. Vaapad doesn't just turn Mace's inner Darkness to strength, it also reflects the opponent's Darkness back at them. If Mace taunts Anakin into "teh Z0ne" (why a Jedi would so such a thing is ridiculous anyways), then Mace will reflect "teh Z0ne's" Dark strength back on to Anakin. [/B]

And what does that mean its deadlier? Is it better at defending than soresu? No. Is it more technically skilled at duelling than makashi? No. Djem So is designed specifically for duelling combat. Vapaad is not. So you cant say just because its overall the "deadliest" that its better than Djem So at duelling.

And Mace is a Master of EVERY FORM now?? and every variant of every form?? when did that happen??
Theres no proof Mace has mastered Djem So. Not many people use it. Users of Form 5 usually use Shien. And Anakin does not need to recognise the style to deal with it, and do what he does best.
And Vapaad reflecting Anakins darkness back at him creates a superconducting loop between the 2 of them. So thatll keep Mace's strength up with Anakins as Anakin gets stronger. It wnt just reflect it back at Anakin and finish him off.
And even if Anakin is not in the zone we know he was a match for Dooku in Sabers.
Look Anakin was a level 9 duellist by ROTS. To think that he would not even be a threat to Mace in Sabers is just silly.
A

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And what does that mean its deadlier? Is it better at defending than soresu? No. Is it more technically skilled at duelling than makashi? No. Djem So is designed specifically for duelling combat. Vapaad is not. So you cant say just because its overall the "deadliest" that its better than Djem So at duelling.

And Mace is a Master of EVERY FORM now?? and every variant of every form?? when did that happen??
Theres no proof Mace has mastered Djem So. Not many people use it. Users of Form 5 usually use Shien. And Anakin does not need to recognise the style to deal with it, and do what he does best.
And Vapaad reflecting Anakins darkness back at him creates a superconducting loop between the 2 of them. So thatll keep Mace's strength up with Anakins as Anakin gets stronger. It wnt just reflect it back at Anakin and finish him off.
And even if Anakin is not in the zone we know he was a match for Dooku in Sabers.
Look Anakin was a level 9 duellist by ROTS. To think that he would not even be a threat to Mace in Sabers is just silly.
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Mace can also be in teh z0ne by giving himself completely to Vapaad. When he was dueling Sidious, he allowed his body to automatically fight for him, thus increasing his reaction time. If he wasn't in teh z0ne, I am fairly certain that Sidious would have handled him, because even Mace admits he is faster.

To make it even simpler for you to understand:
Mace+Vapaad>Sidious
Yoda-Vapaad<Sidious
Mace+Vapaad<Yoda+Vapaad

So if Yoda had mastered Vapaad, he would have beaten Sidious, and both of them are stronger than Anakin in speed and skill. As far as lightsaber forms go, Mace is definitely superior. I am not going to even mention Shatterpoint.

Your Dooku argument is useless because Mace would best him just as well.

Also I don't believe you understand how a superconducting loop works.

Originally posted by The Ground
To make it even simpler for you to understand:
Mace+Vapaad>Sidious
Yoda-Vapaad<Sidious
Mace+Vapaad<Yoda+Vapaad

So if Yoda had mastered Vapaad, he would have beaten Sidious, and both of them are stronger than Anakin in speed and skill. As far as lightsaber forms go, Mace is definitely superior. I am not going to even mention Shatterpoint.

Originally posted by The Ground
Mace can also be in teh z0ne by giving himself completely to Vapaad. When he was dueling Sidious, he allowed his body to automatically fight for him, thus increasing his reaction time. If he wasn't in teh z0ne, I am fairly certain that Sidious would have handled him, because even Mace admits he is faster.

Your only proving my point. The Speed and power mace had while fighting Sidious was only applicable to that fight. He wnt be that fast or powerful when fighting Anakin.
And Nick Gillard called Anakin a level 9 duelist for the Movie. Not just for the fight with Dooku. So saying the "one off in the zone" is the only time Anakin was a level 9 duelist is wrong.

Originally posted by The Ground
As far as lightsaber forms go, Mace is definitely superior. I am not going to even mention Shatterpoint..

Well NG has put them both in the same league.
Is Vapaad superior to Djem So in Sword Duelling? Djem So was designed specifically for that. Vapaad wasnt. And since when was shatterpoint a guranteed victory in a lightsaber duel? He has to get past Anakins defences first. And like iv already mentioned the starting point of Form 5(Shien and Djem So) is Soresu. It was created by Soresu masters who wanted to add Attacks to their own form. So Djem So has a very good defence.

Originally posted by The Ground
Your Dooku argument is useless because Mace would best him just as well...

Maybe. Although theres no proof of that. Dark Rendezvous calls Dooku and Mace equal in lightsaber combat. But even if your right, that would only make Mace and Anakin in the same leauge. Lets face it, Anakin overpowered Dooku quite badly. So if your saying Mace would overpower Anakin just as badly, then How Much More Powerful are you saying Mace is to Dooku?? Because by that argument your making Dooku into a complete amateur in comparison to Mace.

Originally posted by The Ground
Also I don't believe you understand how a superconducting loop works.

I beleive it would help Mace keep up with Anakin's ever growing strength just as it helped Mace keep up with Sidious's speed. Your free to correct me if im wrong.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Your only proving my point. The Speed and power mace had while fighting Sidious was only applicable to that fight. He wnt be that fast or powerful when fighting Anakin.

Wrong

Me
Case 2:
Vapaad Practitioner vs. Neutral user or non- Force Sensitive

This is probably the most common occurrence in universe, as there are fewer DS users to fight than say, droids. In this situation Vaapad is fueled by the user's inner darkness- the innate power of Mace Windu, for example. The 'loop does not come into play, but the user still 'skirts the penumbra' of the DS, as shown by Shatterpoint. This is the style that Windu uses in any fight where he is not outclassed by a DS force user.

Vaapad is fueled by Mace- it enhances his speed and strength even when not fighting a Dark Sider. (As shown by the descriptions in Shatterpoint.)

And Nick Gillard called Anakin a level 9 duelist for the Movie. Not just for the fight with Dooku. So saying the "one off in the zone" is the only time Anakin was a level 9 duelist is wrong.

Well NG has put them both in the same league.

Is Vapaad superior to Djem So in Sword Duelling? Djem So was designed specifically for that. Vapaad wasnt.

By all accounts, Mace Windu has mastered the lightsaber to a far greater degree than Anakin; not only was he proficient enough with a saber to design his own style, he based his (presumably) improved style ("the completion of Juyo"😉 on a style that requires mastery of other forms. Every single fact about Mace Windu suggests that he mastered his style and the lightsaber itself to the greatest possible degree. We don't have such a plethora of evidence for Anakin.

And feel free to use the 'Quick Spellcheck' function at the bottom of your screen.

And since when was shatterpoint a guranteed victory in a lightsaber duel? He has to get past Anakins defences first.

And like iv already mentioned the starting point of Form 5(Shien and Djem So) is Soresu. It was created by Soresu masters who wanted to add Attacks to their own form. So Djem So has a very good defence.

Maybe. Although theres no proof of that. Dark Rendezvous calls Dooku and Mace equal in lightsaber combat.

But even if your right, that would only make Mace and Anakin in the same leauge. Lets face it, Anakin overpowered Dooku quite badly. So if your saying Mace would overpower Anakin just as badly, then How Much More Powerful are you saying Mace is to Dooku?? Because by that argument your making Dooku into a complete amateur in comparison to Mace.

I beleive it would help Mace keep up with Anakin's ever growing strength just as it helped Mace keep up with Sidious's speed. Your free to correct me if im wrong.

Well said.

Thanks 🙂

Originally posted by ares834
I want to stay out of this fight but I need to say something. The Yoda and Mace Windu one is completley unfounded. Heck, I doubt Yoda would be able to master Vaapad to the degree that Mace perfected it as hYoda does not enjoy fighting while Mace does.

Enjoyment of fighting has nothing to do with it. I was merely pointing out that Yoda, a master of EVERY FORM, couldn't beat Sidious, while Mace could using only Vapaad. Therefore Vapaad>Every other form.

Shatterpoint is a rather irrelevant factor in this fight, since we have no idea what Anakin's shatterpoint is and/or how it could be capitalized on.