Originally posted by Red NemesisWrong. He was only 'level nine' with the power of the Dark side. ("The dark side makes all the difference" or some such.)[/B]
which he used in every fight in ROTS. Therefore he was a level 9 in ROTS, as NG rated him for the movie, not for a specific fight.
Originally posted by Red Nemesis1. Why is NG a canon source now?
2. When did he do this?.)[/B]
1. Because he choreographed the fights in the G Cannon movie. You think he didnt have conversations with Lucas about how powerful they were supposed to be??!!
2. In the making of ROTS
Originally posted by Red NemesisBefore you say what you think, THINK! Shatterpoint is a method to find the weaknesses and stress lines in both situations and items. And people. Shatterpoint would be used to break the defenses, not after it had already happened.
I am thinking. Seeing a weakness is one thing. Taking advantage of it it something else. Otherwise your basically saying Mace would win ANY Saber fight because he has shatterpoint. And yet Dooku and Yoda used to outduel him and Qui-Gon used to draw with him in saber sparring, and yet he always had shatterpoint.
Originally posted by Red NemesisYou are putting an inordinate amount of emphasis on the cursory explanations of style. All 'styles' will have to have some form of defense, if only to allow their user to survive long enough to attack. You didn't see Maul (who used the 'lulz aggressive' Juyo form) ignoring defense during the fight, did you? Nope. In combat each form must be able to fill all roles. The difference rises when one asks what parts to emphasize in order to win..[/B]
Form 5 is a continuation of Form 3. So defence is very strong. Probably better than any other form apart from 3.
Originally posted by Red NemesisThe 'loop is only applicable when Mace's opponent is stronger than him and a Dark Sider. Anakin is not stronger (speed or strength) than Mace unless he taps the Dark Side. If he taps the Dark Side then he is subject to the 'loop. The only way Skywalker would have a chance is if he was more skilled than Mace. Their respective levels of mastery of their forms (and Mace's greater quantity of learnings coupled with his innovation of a high end form) suggest that this is not the case. [/B]
He uses the dark side.. makes him stronger than mace. The loop comes into play, so mace ends up being just as strong anyway.
Then its Vapaad vs. Djem So. Djem So is a lethal duelling form, so i dnt see any gurantee of Mace winning.
Sidious was also a darksider, and the loop came into play, then Sidious and Mace were equal, and Mace had to Physically overpower him. I dnt see him doing that to anakin.
As for the mutiple forms he may use... Anakin also has "Proficiency" in multiple forms, including Ataru and Shien + knows Obiwans soresu moves inside out.
And no matter what Mace uses, Djem So can deflect the attacks back onto Mace. And only Makashi is more "technically" skilled for duelling than Djem So. And Anakin is "a fine a user" of Djem So as Dooku has ever seen.
When the loop comes into play, it nullifies the strength and speed of Anakins attacks which are fueled by the dark side, and are reflected back against him.
Why is this so hard to understand?
The level 9 duelist thing is BS. Dooku was raping Anakin before he used the dark side, so that's the only thing that let him beat Dooku. Not his speed, not his skill, not his strength, but by tapping into the dark side.
Originally posted by The Ground
When the loop comes into play, it nullifies the strength and speed of Anakins attacks which are fueled by the dark side, and are reflected back against him.
Why is this so hard to understand?
So when Mace fought Palpatine Sidious's strength and speed were nullified?? No! His ADVANTAGES of strength and speed were nullified. The dark sides not just reflected back, but then goes back to Mace causing a superconducting loop, giving Mace the same strength and speed as Sidious. Thats why they were equal. Until Mace tactically got an advantage, and "physically" overpowered him.
Originally posted by The Ground
The level 9 duelist thing is BS.
Ill beleive NG over you.
Originally posted by The Ground
Dooku was raping Anakin before he used the dark side, so that's the only thing that let him beat Dooku. Not his speed, not his skill, not his strength, but by tapping into the dark side.
Dooku kicked Anakin to the ground once. Yes that was a humiliating kick, but i wuldnt quite call it a rape. And apart from that one kick, Anakin wasnt once losing to Dooku, Dark Side or not.
And are you forgetting Anakin already matched Dooku (in Sabers at least) back in the clone wars. Dooku was better with the Force but Anakin took his force hits and kept on fighting. He basically fought him to a stand off months before ROTS. And Anakin was growing more powerful still.
The dark side in ROTS just finally stopped Anakin holding back. And Even before tapping the dark side Dooku was "Astonished" by Skywalkers "Pure Physical Power". He called him "A Destroyer Droid with a lightsaber." He was almost too fast for him as well "his blade flashing faster and faster until Dooku "Saw the room through an electric haze.."
He was also extremely skilled. First duping Dooku with Ataru and Shien, and then finally showing Dooku he was as fine a user of Djem So as Dooku had ever seen. A form which produces masses amount of kinetic energy like Shien, but designed specifically for swordplay, which is why even Dooku's Makashi had a difficult time dealing with it.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He was also a match for Dooku in Sabers during the clone wars. So hes at least that good on a normal day. The ROTS fight against Dooku showed what he is capable of when he stops holding back, and unleashes that Rage of his coupled with his practically unlimited force reserves.
I wonder, why you refuse to understand a simple concept: Anakin could just stop holding back because he was taunted to do it and hated the person being in front of him. This is not a state which Anakin can reach at will. Thus it doesn't matter for this fight.
Deadliest is a bit vague. Deadliest in what? Duelling technical skill? Not neceesarily. Each form has its strengths. Each form has is the best at something. Makashi at Duelling Skill. Soresu at defence. Form 5 at deflecting attacks back at the opponent. Vapaad is deadly because of the Speed and Power it gives the user, as well as very technically skilled. However that doesnt make it as good as Soresu at defending, or as skilled as Makashi at duelling, or as good at deflecting attacks back to the opponent as Form 5.
I can't even decide where I should start here. The forms do just reflect certain philosophies of combat. Soresu focuses on defense, Makashi on efficiency, Djem So on strong counter-attacks, Vaapad focuses on speed and being unpredictable.
The point is: You can't argue fights solely based on lightsaber forms used by the opponents. Otherwise, just as example, nobody should be able to beat Dooku, because he uses the "ultimate refinement" of lightsaber to lightsaber combat. This is obviously not how it works.
The key to victory in lightsaber combat is not the combat form or duelling skill, it's attunement to the force. Kas'im notes that in "Path of Destruction" when telling Bane, that the latter has moved "beyond styles" because of his force attunement. He even tells him that a superior force user can beat an opponent with superior skill in the lightsaber department. Bane later demonstrates this by defeating Kas'im - and Anakin Skywalker also proves it when defeating Dooku.
The point here is: The very basement for Anakin's archievement in that area, is not his use / mastery of Djem So. It's his attunement to the force that allowed him to defeat Dooku, noted by the novel as "nullifying" Dooku's skill. Or do you want to tell us that Anakin's pure bladework exceeds that of the master of the "ultimate refinement of lightsaber to lightsaber combat" who practiced the art for more than 7 decades? I don't think so.
And are you suggesting Yoda culdnt stop Depa. As your saying only Mace windu culd?!
I'm not suggesting anything here. I'm merely noting that Mace, apparently, think that he's the only one able to stop Depa.
Another Vapaad Master who actually developed it along with Mace is Sora Bulq who actually got tooled in duelling by Count Dooku. Why if Vapaad is the deadliest?? Because Makashi is better for pure blade to blade duelling.
Mace is the only person that mastered Vaapad...
And as for Overpowering Sidious, Anakin never faced him in a lightsaber duel. Of course Sidious would tool Anakin with the Force. In fact he even had Mace with his lightning which was "Beyond Vapaad"(ROTS Novel). But in a Saber fight alone accroding to Nick Gillard Anakin is "Up there with Sidious". Anakin, Mace, Yoda and Sidious were all given level9 ratings by him. And thats how he choreographed the G-Cannon saber fights of the movies.
Yes. And the man who dictates canon in the SW universe, namely George Lucas, claimed that only Mace and Yoda were able to content with the Emperor in time of RotS, noting that Anakin would have become able to do so, if he hadn't been injured on Mustafar. The point is: RotS Anakin would not be able to do the job, no matter what Gillard says.
This is the same Gillard, by the way, that put his own character, Cin Drallig, as the best duellist of the era and also mentioned, that the saberforms don't even exists. Nice canon source there, pal.
As for matching Dooku in Sabers... After Anakin was knighted Dooku never proved himself superior in Sabers to Anakin. He matched him in the clone wars and destroyed him in ROTS.
Urm. Without even questioning your interpretation of that fight scenes there: How does it matter? A duell between force users is never limited to bladework. And when the force got involved, Dooku simply owned Anakin each time. Anakin, in turn, can't even keep up with Obi-Wan Kenobi in the force master department, unless being in "the zone". So how would he deal with somebody like Mace Windu, who does even use Dark Side powers when he thinks he needs to do so?
Prove Mace mastered Djem So and not Shien. Actually prove he mastered any aspect of Form 5 first, and then prove it was Djem So as most users of form 5 used shien.
And Dooku also knew of Djem So.. didnt help him much.
It's irrelevant.
Mace, through mastery of Vaapad, must be a high proficient master of multiple forms and the only master of the deadliest among them. Does the same apply to Anakin? No. So obviously, as far as technical finesse in lightsaber duels is concerned, Mace has more up his sleeve than Anakin.
And no, Dooku's knowledge of Djem So didn't help him. But it just didn't help him because of Anakin practically unleashing his entire potential against the Sith Lord. We're talking about the same Dooku that floored Anakin before. But once Anakin was in the Zone, Dooku couldn't stop him any longer - not due to bladework, but due to force powers.
NO. Wrong. Shien was. Your proving your arguing without knowing about Form 5. Go read more about it. Djem So was a variant of Form 5 to be applied in duelling.
How does it matter? You take a form that focuses on heavy counter attacks and put it up against a form that focuses on unconnected and unpredictable, fast movements. I wonder how somebody counter-attacks unpredictable movements. Oh yes. By force guided prediction, meaning force mastery. That was it which kept Sidious alive versus Windu and once Windu distracted the Sith Lord, the latter lost the duel.
Anakin doesn't possess the force mastery of Sidious, as you mentioned yourself. So how would he manage to stay alive against Mace?
What are you talking about? He was completely outduelling him before the FL. He even disarmed him of his Shoto, and was clear the whole time Dooku was in complete control of the duel.
Yes. Because Dooku was a far superior tactician, force user and duelling expert - not just because "he used Makashi!!!111".
For GOD's sakes.. Mace has a better shot at sidious because he can temporarily match his speed and strength via a superconducting loop. A>B>C argument not working here. iv expained this a million times. why do i have to repeat myself??!
Are you nuts?
I'm tired of arguing this bullshit. Mace draws on an inner (read: inside himself) source of darkness in order to content with the speed of Sidious. He then reflects Sidious fear back at the Sith Lord (read: superconducting loop) in order to break the concentration of the Sith Lord and after that he disarms him using the Shatterpoint ability.
Windu demonstrates similiar speed when fighting Kar Vastor in Shatterpoint, hitting him six times before Vastor can even blink. He does again demonstrate similar speed when dealing with the droids on Dantooine. Face it: Mace speed has nothing to do with that situation, nor does it require that Sidious is his opponent, nor does Mace archieve that via the "superconducting loop".
Also Lucas says you have to be mace or yoda to compete with palpatine. he didnt say you have to be yoda or sidious to compete with mace.
He excludes the RotS version of Anakin from the list of people being able to compete with Sidious. If Anakin was as good as Mace in overall combat ability, he would be on the list. But he isn't because he can just reach that level when being put into this nice metaphysical state of being he reaches in his end with the duel with Dooku, when he simply "nullifies" the skill of the Sith Lord through his vast amounts of force energies. The point is: Since he can't repeat that at will, he can't get on the "level 9" at will. Gillard even mentions that he just put Anakin there because of that special abilities. Otherwise it would be illogical for Anakin to be defeated by Obi-Wan.
Maybe Mace is better with the force than anakin, so good enough to compete with sidious, whilst anakin is not. But that doesnt mean anakin is not good enough to go up against mace.
So, let me check: In general, Mace is maybe better with the force than Anakin. And you have absolutely no idea, if Anakin is better with a lightsaber (and only statements that point in the exact opposite direction). Still you think that Anakin has a good chance defeating Mace? Based on ... what?
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
@Nai, I agree w/you for the most part, but I think you got the Kas'im part mixed up: he said the OPPOSITE of what you said.
Just to clarify, here is the quote (Path of Destruction, paperback, page 180):
"As you already know, the Force is the real key to victory in any confrontation. However, the equation is not so simple. Someone well trained in lightsabre combat can defeat an opponent who is stronger in the Force."
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
So when Mace fought Palpatine Sidious's strength and speed were nullified?? No! His ADVANTAGES of strength and speed were nullified. The dark sides not just reflected back, but then goes back to Mace causing a superconducting loop, giving Mace the same strength and speed as Sidious. Thats why they were equal. Until Mace tactically got an advantage, and "physically" overpowered him.
I was referring to Anakin, not Sidious. Try to pay attention.
Anakin is slower and weaker than Mace, so the loop would nullify the dark side fueling his attacks and would be made to serve Mace. The Sidious case is different because Sidious was faster than him and the loop would only bring his speed down to Mace's, instead of dispelling the speed and power fully, like it would for Anakin.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Ill beleive NG over you.
You go ahead and beleive . I don't care what NG called him, Mace is faster, stronger, and has Shatterpoint. What does "level 9" even mean? Does it mean in technical skill? In what way is that relevant?
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Dooku kicked Anakin to the ground once. Yes that was a humiliating kick, but i wuldnt quite call it a rape. And apart from that one kick, Anakin wasnt once losing to Dooku, Dark Side or not.
Ok, I admit that it wasn't a rape and I apologize. What I meant to say was that Anakin never showed anything special (even with his mastery of Djem So) until he used the dark side. Therefore Djem So did not win him the fight, it was the dark side. Which would be rendered useless by Vapaad.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And are you forgetting Anakin already matched Dooku (in Sabers at least) back in the clone wars.
Irrelevant.
See below.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He was also extremely skilled. First duping Dooku with Ataru and Shien, and then finally showing Dooku he was as fine a user of Djem So as Dooku had ever seen.
WHY IS DOOKU CANON? I mean that's just ridiculous. I think you forget that Mace is stronger, faster, more technically skilled and has Shatterpoint.
Originally posted by Borbarad
I wonder, why you refuse to understand a simple concept: Anakin could just stop holding back because he was taunted to do it and hated the person being in front of him. This is not a state which Anakin can reach at will. Thus it doesn't matter for this fight.
Anakin was taunted into using the dark side. After that he converted to the dark side anyway so it doenst matter. NG rates Anakin as a level 9 Saber duellist for ROTS, not just for the fight with Dooku.
And EVEN BEFORE BEING TAUNTED Dooku culdnt beat Anakin. He described him as being Impossibly Powerful. and was Astonished by his Sheer Physical Power, as well as his tremendous amounts of Force reserves.
Originally posted by Borbarad
I can't even decide where I should start here. The forms do just reflect certain philosophies of combat. Soresu focuses on defense, Makashi on efficiency, Djem So on strong counter-attacks, Vaapad focuses on speed and being unpredictable.
Hey we agree on something!
Originally posted by Borbarad
The point is: You can't argue fights solely based on lightsaber forms used by the opponents. Otherwise, just as example, nobody should be able to beat Dooku, because he uses the "ultimate refinement" of lightsaber to lightsaber combat. This is obviously not how it works.
I never said it depends soley on lightsaber forms. Iv just been explaining how technically skilled Anakin himself is in response to people saying Mace wins because he's mastered Vapaad.
Originally posted by Borbarad
The key to victory in lightsaber combat is not the combat form or duelling skill, it's attunement to the force. Kas'im notes that in "Path of Destruction" when telling Bane, that the latter has moved "beyond styles" because of his force attunement. He even tells him that a superior force user can beat an opponent with superior skill in the lightsaber department. Bane later demonstrates this by defeating Kas'im - and Anakin Skywalker also proves it when defeating Dooku..
And exactly in which of these departments was Anakin lacking. He had Tremedous amounts of Force Reserves + was described as Dooku as being Impossibly Powerful + was a fine a User of Djem So as Dooku had ever seen.
Originally posted by Borbarad
The point here is: The very basement for Anakin's archievement in that area, is not his use / mastery of Djem So. It's his attunement to the force that allowed him to defeat Dooku, noted by the novel as "nullifying" Dooku's skill. Or do you want to tell us that Anakin's pure bladework exceeds that of the master of the "ultimate refinement of lightsaber to lightsaber combat" who practiced the art for more than 7 decades? I don't think so...
Yeah your right. Dooku is more "technically skilled" in bladework than both Mace and Anakin. And Anakin nullified his duelling skill due to his incredible power and attunment to the force. And yet you think Mace is even more powerful. By that theory Mace would make very short work of Dooku indeed, which I find quite difficult to beleive.
Originally posted by Borbarad
Mace is the only person that mastered Vaapad......
In Mace's opinion right?? because in Bulq's opinion Bulq perfected it.
Originally posted by Borbarad
Yes. And the man who dictates canon in the SW universe, namely George Lucas, claimed that only Mace and Yoda were able to content with the Emperor in time of RotS, noting that Anakin would have become able to do so, if he hadn't been injured on Mustafar. The point is: RotS Anakin would not be able to do the job, no matter what Gillard says.......
Actually he didnt say he would have "become" able to do so. He just said Anakin "could" have beaten had he not got beat up. no mention of a future itme period. But for arguments sakes say your right. It's irrelevant to the saber ratings, because Sidious could probably just easily dispose of Anakin with a Force Move without even engaging him in lightsaber combat. Mace can definetely use the Force better than Anakin, which gives him a much better chance at taking on Sidious.
Originally posted by Borbarad
This is the same Gillard, by the way, that put his own character, Cin Drallig, as the best duellist of the era and also mentioned, that the saberforms don't even exists. Nice canon source there, pal........
Cin Drallig may have been the best in "Technical skill".. I dnt know. But NG knows Anakin took Drallig down in a lightsaber fight. He played the part on the hologram veiwing remeber. Anyway im not saying NG knows everything about Star Wars. But when it comes to the fight in the movies which are G-Cannon, he choreographed them, had to give them ratings, so obviously must have discussed with Lucas how good each of these characters are supposed to be in Lightsaber Combat.
Originally posted by Borbarad
[B]Mace, through mastery of Vaapad, must be a high proficient master of multiple forms and the only master of the deadliest among them. Does the same apply to Anakin? No. So obviously, as far as technical finesse in lightsaber duels is concerned, Mace has more up his sleeve than Anakin.]
Make up your mind. One minute your arguing that these things are not decided by lightsaber forms, then the next minute your arguing Mace wins because he knows more lightsaber forms??!!
Neway by RODV Vader is trained in ALL forms of combat. that didnt take place long after ROTS, so by ROTS Anakin must have been trained and proficient in Most Forms at least.
Originally posted by Borbarad
[B]Anakin doesn't possess the force mastery of Sidious, as you mentioned yourself. So how would he manage to stay alive against Mace?
Anakin's not Sidious. Lightsaber fight wnt go the same way. Mace "Physically" Overpowered Sidious. I doubt he will do it to someone whom Dooku was astonished by his "Sheer Physical Power".
Originally posted by Borbarad
IAre you nuts?
I'm tired of arguing this bullshit. Mace draws on an inner (read: inside himself) source of darkness in order to content with the speed of Sidious. He then reflects Sidious fear back at the Sith Lord (read: superconducting loop) in order to break the concentration of the Sith Lord and after that he disarms him using the Shatterpoint ability.
Im tired of this bull as well which you clearly do not understand.
"He accepted the furious speed of the sith lord, DREW THE SHADOW'S RAGE AND FURY INTO HIS IN MOST CENTRE- and let it fountain out again"
Thats the "Loop"... he drew power form Sidious, so he wnt be THAT Powerful or THAT Fast when fighting Anakin. What do you not understand?
and he didnt defeat him using shattrpoint.. he looked for his shatterpoint and that lead him to Anakin. Sidious's weakness was that he was putting his faith in Anakin to take Sidious's side over Mace's. Clearly Mace wasnt able to take advantage of that. It ends by saying (when mace dies) that he was so busy concentrating on Palpatine's shatterpoint that he failed to see Anakins.
You see thats what I keep saying.. Seeing a weakness is one thing. Taking advantage of it is something completely different and not always possible. Otherwise his Saber Sparring matches with Qui-Gon would not have usually ended up in draws.
Mace and Sidious were exactly equal with the "Loop" and Mace eventually won by "tactically" besting him (in the novel), and "physically" overpowering him (in the movie).
Originally posted by Borbarad
Windu demonstrates similiar speed when fighting Kar Vastor in Shatterpoint, hitting him six times before Vastor can even blink. He does again demonstrate similar speed when dealing with the droids on Dantooine. Face it: Mace speed has nothing to do with that situation, nor does it require that Sidious is his opponent, nor does Mace archieve that via the "superconducting loop". .
And what you think Anakin is slow?? He has the fastest reflexes and coordination of any jedi. Thats why hes naturally the best pilot in the galaxy. And have you seen how incredibly fast hes been depicted taking out droids in the animated movie. ROTS novel says hes "Perhaps the Fastest Jedi of Any generation".
HIs saber also looked like it was everywhere in his fight with Dooku (before giving in to the dark side.) "His Blade was everywhere flashin and whirling faster and faster until Dooku saw the room through an electirc haze.." and later after being taunted, to hold back again(i.e. slowing down) both Dooku and Anakin blades were clashing "faster than the eye could see.."
Originally posted by Borbarad
The point is: Since he can't repeat that at will, he can't get on the "level 9" at will. Gillard even mentions that he just put Anakin there because of that special abilities. Otherwise it would be illogical for Anakin to be defeated by Obi-Wan..
Gillard says Anakin was a level 9 "for this movie" not just for the fight with Dooku.
Im tired of this as well, because you simnply dnt get it. If the fight with Obi1 carried on Anakin was definetely going to win. But the "Master of Soresu's" defences are not going to go down quickly. And Obiwan "Tactically" outsmarted him. He never once outduelled him. In fact it was Obiwan giving ground the whole fight.
And NG + the ROTS novel both say that Anakin and Obiwan knew each others moves inside out! Thats why neither could outduel the other. So Thats seriously the worst use of ABC logic. Not to mention Obiwan trained him for GOD'S sakes!
Originally posted by Borbarad
So, let me check: In general, Mace is maybe better with the force than Anakin. And you have absolutely no idea, if Anakin is better with a lightsaber (and only statements that point in the exact opposite direction). Still you think that Anakin has a good chance defeating Mace? Based on ... what?
Mace is better with the Force. Thats why hes got a much better chance against Sidious. But Anakins proved he can take Force attacks from Dooku and carry on fighting, so I dnt see Mace doing better in the force than Dooku. However in sabers theyre in the same league.(Both level9's) Though if the loop comes into play then that will give Mace the edge. But not because Mace is naturally better, stronger or more powerful a swordsman because hes not.
Originally posted by The Ground
You go ahead and [B]beleive . I don't care what NG called him, Mace is faster, stronger, and has Shatterpoint. What does "level 9" even mean? Does it mean in technical skill? In what way is that relevant?[/B]
the level 9 is technical skill + power and just overall how good they are as swordsmen. But swordsmen only. Mastery of the Force is something totally different where Anakin is Nowhere near Sidious. In fact hes not even in Mace's league in that department. But he can take Force attacks from Mace/Dook level Force users(just about).
Originally posted by The Ground
What I meant to say was that Anakin never showed anything special (even with his mastery of Djem So) until he used the dark side. Therefore Djem So did not win him the fight, it was the dark side. Which would be rendered useless by Vapaad.?
Yes it was. Even before giving into the darkside it was Anakin giving Dooku so much trouble. He practically accepted he culdnt beat him. Just tried to parry off his attacks. Before giving into the darkside Dooku said Anakin was "Impossibly Powerful" "A Destroyer Droid with a Lightsaber" "Not only did the Boy wield Tremendous amounts of Force Reserves but Dooku was astonished by his SHEER PHYSICAL POWER.." "the boy was a Djem So Stylist and a fine a one as Dooku had ever seen" and then finally he notices Skywalker was actaully GETTING STRONGER...
All these things together was what was giving Dooku so much trouble even before Anakin gave in to the Dark Side. and lets not forget he didnt even Beat Anakin back in the Clone Wars.
Originally posted by The Ground
I think you forget that Mace is stronger, faster, more technically skilled and has Shatterpoint.
Well i still dnt see any proof that Vapaad is more "technically skilled" In "Saber Duelling" than Djem So.
You know I can understand people thinking Mace would have the advantage of the "Super Conducting Loop" and possibly(though not guaranteed) of shatterpoint, but to say Mace is Stronger or more Powerful in Swordplay is just total rubbish.. and just kissing Mace's ass a bit too much.
Read he quotes above about how much Stronger and More Powerful Anakin was than Dooku in Swordfighting... A>B>C does work in individual aspects like Strength and Raw Power in Swordplay.
If Mace is even Stronger and More Powerul than Anakin in Swordplay than Dooku must be a complete weakling and totally powerless in comparison to Mace, and Mace would tool Dooku in like 3 seconds. So just think about that!
If you think Mace wins via the "Loop" fair enough. But at least be open minded enough to see that Anakin is AT LEAST as Strong and has at LEAST as much Raw Power in Sword fighting as Mace any day (well any day during ROTS before getting beat up by ObiWan LOL)..
In the interest of not going back and forth again, let's tackle one stupid premise at a time.
First up, the idea of "Anakin = Level 9, ergo Anakin = Mace." There are two major problems with your use of this "fact." One, Nick Gillard isn't necessarily a reputable canon source. At all. His version of Jedi combat is not corroborated by a single published canon source, or even noncanon or verbal sources.
Two, you've been intentionally ignoring one very significant piece of Gillard's statement:
"Obi-Wan is at a level 8, which is where Anakin starts. But Anakin jumps to level 9 -- and the difference between 8 and 9 is enormous. A Jedi can get to level 9, but that's the difference between light and dark."
Which also doesn't really make sense given that Mace and Yoda are apparently level 9, but what's relevant here is that - as I pointed out - Gillard made it clear that the dark side is what made Anakin "a level 9," and that [at the beginning of RotS] he's a level 8, just like Obi-Wan. Gillard also points out that there's an "enormous" gap between 8 and 9, meaning that dark side Anakin [9] is an [enormously] greater swordsman than Jedi Anakin [8]. And since Mace Windu is a level 9, he too is an [enormously] greater swordsman than Jedi Anakin. Of course, while dark side Anakin is on an equal tier as him in swordsmanship, Mace still has shatterpoint and Vaapad.
'Nuff said.
So either acknowledge that Nick Gillard isn't necessarily a canon source and that you bringing him up in every post is stupid and futile, or acknowledge that what he actually said isn't what you said he said and is really what I said he said, meaning that you bringing him up in every post is stupid, futile, and completely counterproductive to the point you're trying to make.
Either way, I win.
I can't expect the rest of you to be as resourceful as I am, I suppose.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Lightsaber_combat
Just CTRL+F "Gillard." It comes up near the bottom of the page.
Originally posted by Eminence
I can't expect the rest of you to be as resourceful as I am, I suppose.http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Lightsaber_combat
Just CTRL+F "Gillard." It comes up near the bottom of the page.
Truth though, Originally it was on the commentary.
If you think Mace wins via the "Loop" fair enough. But at least be open minded enough to see that Anakin is AT LEAST as Strong and has at LEAST as much Raw Power in Sword fighting as Mace any day.
This seems to sum up your argument and it explains why you are so mistaken. Put simply, Anakin is not 'at least as strong' as Mace and (assuming I'm understanding you correctly) is nowhere near as skillful.
Power
Power: The capacity to accomplish work. (Not scientifically but... bear with me.)
In terms of the Force, power is the strength with which one may apply the Force to one's goals. This must be further broken down into potential power and actual power. Potential power is the ideal strength with which one could apply the Force. This is primarily determined by midichlorian count (apparently), although potential power has been underestimated in some individuals (Ganner Rhysode). This suggests that factors other than midichlorians may influence the upper limit of Force mastery. Actual power is the pertinent measure for the SWVF. It describes the strength an individual has been shown to have access to. Actual power can be modified- it generally varies over time with study, emotional state and motivation.
The dichotomy becomes pertinent to our discussion when individuals' actual power does not match their potential power. This gives rise to the speculation about 'full potential Anakin' or 'Dark Side Yoda' or 'Fully Trained Galen Marek'. None of these entities exist and so may not be used. The problem here is that Anakin's actual power is so vague. At times his power level appears abysmally low; his struggles against Ventress are symptomatic of this tendency. At other times, he reaches heights of Force power rarely seen in the mythos. This capacity is generally explained by his unorthodox birth: as a child of the Force (or Plageius) or otherwise, he has the highest midichlorian count ever recorded by the Jedi. That simple fact affords him incredible power- his potential led Palpatine to believe that Anakin might surpass him. Why, then, does Anakin not outclass every opponent he meets? Aside from PIS, the explanation lies in mastery. Because of his lack of training he is unable to bring his full potential to bear in any given situation.
The few times he has been able to access his 'full potential' he has been under the sway of the Dark Side. Most notably, Dooku notices that Anakin (while driving Dooku himself back) was 'holding back' his emotions and resisting the strength they gave him. Dooku identifies it as a Sith technique, 'the gift of fury'. Next, Anakin is encouraged by Palpatine to use the Dark Side. ""Call upon your fury. Focus it, and he cannot stand against you. Rage is your weapon. Strike now!" This technique of 'fury' allows Anakin to enter 'the (t3h) zone'. It is utterly unique to his fight against Dooku on the Invisible Hand and he does not regain that level of actual power again for the rest of the saga.
This 'zone' is the only form in which Anakin might threaten Mace; his baseline abilities are far too weak otherwise to even provide a challenge to the Korun Jedi Master. With that in mind, we must ask ourselves a question: Will Mace Windu, a noted member of an order of light siders provoke Anakin into using the dark side? The only possible answer is 'no'. So Anakin will not be able to access the level of power he used against Dooku.
So. Anakin isn't using the Dark Side. Lucky break, right? Now Mace won't have access to the 'loop everyone loves so much. Vaapad is useless! Right? Sadly (for Anakin) this is not the case. Aside from the technical aspects of Vaapad (which I'll hit later) the metaphysical aspects will remain effective, even against a supposedly non-dark opponent.
Me
Vapaad Practitioner vs. Neutral user or non- Force SensitiveThis is probably the most common occurrence in universe, as there are fewer DS users to fight than say, droids. In this situation Vaapad is fueled by the user's inner darkness- the innate power of Mace Windu, for example. The 'loop does not come into play, but the user still 'skirts the penumbra' of the DS, as shown by Shatterpoint. This is the style that Windu uses in any fight where he is not outclassed by a DS force user.
Vaapad is as aggressive and powerful as its namesake, but its power comes at great risk: immersion in Vaapad opens the gates that restrain one's inner darkness. To use Vaapad, a Jedi must allow himself to enjoy the fight; he must give himself over to the thrill of battle. The rush of winning. Vaapad is a path that leads through the penumbra of the dark side.
But wait! We argue characters at their peak! If you want to suppose that Anakin is in this 'zone' by default at the beginning of the fight (which would effectively increase his actual power available for the fight) you are admitting that it isn't a power he possesses and requires outside [Sith/Dark Side] assistance to reach. Acknowledging this fact indicates that 'the zone' is in all actuality a dark side mentality. Mace Windu's specialty is equalizing the playing field with Dark Siders; it will be impossible for Anakin to maintain superiority in strength or speed. (If 'the zone' grants him even that much.)
To recap: Potential =/= actual power (especially when it comes to Anakin Skywalker). Anakin's 'zone' he used against Dooku is a dark side technique. If he doesn't use it he is outclassed by Mace and if he does use it he ends up helping Mace too. Therefore Anakin is incapable of winning this battle purely by raw power.
Skill
The comparison here is laughable. That there even is a comparison is laughable. Anakin Skywalker has nowhere near the lightsaber mastery that Mace Windu has achieved.
Mace is, simply put, a prodigy. He was the youngest member of the Jedi council (ever?) and has only improved since then. As a master of Juyo, he has attained 'high level mastery of multiple forms' in addition to the one he practices. In addition, he improved that 'high level' form- changing it into Vaapad. (Shatterpoint implies that Vaapad has unique attack patterns, even when compared with Juyo.)
On the other hand, Anakin apparently has proficiency in Ataru and Shien (which is a variation of his own form, anyway) sufficient to survive against Dooku. He does not, of course, pose a threat to him using those techniques (Dooku still thinks of the fight as a joke) but he isn't instantly killed. Anakin's chosen form, Djem So, appears to be the only form he's mastered, although it seems to be to a reasonably high degree. (Dooku put him among the 'finest' practitioners of that form he's seen.)
Let's step back a moment. Mace has 'high level mastery' of multiple forms' while Anakin has (confirmed) mastery of only one form. Vaapad, Mace's chosen form, is noted to be the 'deadliest' of all seven variations of saber combat. Notice its comparisons to F.5:
Form VII
Only high-level masters of multiple Forms can achieve and control the ultimate discipline known as Form VII. This is the most difficult and demanding of all Forms, but it can eventually lead to fantastic power and skill. Form VII employs bold, direct movements, more open and kinetic than Form V but not so elaborate in appearance as Form IV. In addition to very advanced Force-assisted jumps and movements, Form VII tactics overwhelm opponents with seemingly unconnected staccato sequences, making the Form highly unpredictable in battle. This trait makes for a much more difficult execution than the graceful, linked move sequences of Form IV. Form VII requires the intensity of Form V, but much greater energy since that focus is wielded more broadly. Form VII draws upon a deeper well of emotion than even Form V, yet masters it more fully. The outward bearing of a Form VII practitioner is one of calm, but the inner pressure verges on explosion. Form VII is still under development since so few can achieve the necessary mastery to advance the art.
Nothing suggests that Form V is 'more suited' to saber combat or in any way superior to Vaapad. Nothing suggests that Anakin is more skilled in his style than Mace in his own. Nothing suggests that Anakin is as strong as Mace (and this is ignoring the feat wars that would boost Mace) be it under his own power or augmented by the Dark Side. Absolutely nothing suggests that Anakin would be able to defeat Mace Windu in open combat.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
the level 9 is technical skill + power and just overall how good they are as swordsmen. But swordsmen only. Mastery of the Force is something totally different where Anakin is Nowhere near Sidious. In fact hes not even in Mace's league in that department. But he can take Force attacks from Mace/Dook level Force users(just about).Yes it was. Even before giving into the darkside it was Anakin giving Dooku so much trouble. He practically accepted he culdnt beat him. Just tried to parry off his attacks. Before giving into the darkside Dooku said Anakin was "Impossibly Powerful" "A Destroyer Droid with a Lightsaber" "Not only did the Boy wield Tremendous amounts of Force Reserves but Dooku was astonished by his SHEER PHYSICAL POWER.." "the boy was a Djem So Stylist and a fine a one as Dooku had ever seen" and then finally he notices Skywalker was actaully GETTING STRONGER...
All these things together was what was giving Dooku so much trouble even before Anakin gave in to the Dark Side. and lets not forget he didnt even Beat Anakin back in the Clone Wars.
Well i still dnt see any proof that Vapaad is more "technically skilled" In "Saber Duelling" than Djem So.
You know I can understand people thinking Mace would have the advantage of the "Super Conducting Loop" and possibly(though not guaranteed) of shatterpoint, but to say Mace is Stronger or more Powerful in Swordplay is just total rubbish.. and just kissing Mace's ass a bit too much.
Read he quotes above about how much Stronger and More Powerful Anakin was than Dooku in Swordfighting... A>B>C does work in individual aspects like Strength and Raw Power in Swordplay.
If Mace is even Stronger and More Powerul than Anakin in Swordplay than Dooku must be a complete weakling and totally powerless in comparison to Mace, and Mace would tool Dooku in like 3 seconds. So just think about that!If you think Mace wins via the "Loop" fair enough. But at least be open minded enough to see that Anakin is AT LEAST as Strong and has at LEAST as much Raw Power in Sword fighting as Mace any day (well any day during ROTS before getting beat up by ObiWan LOL)..
I don't fully understand what you hope to gain from these Dooku statements.
Soz if teh count sez that Anikan is teh best heaz eva seen that meanz he can beat Mace windu!!!!!eleven
You seem to be relying almost completely on what Dooku says. Let me make this clear: Dooku is not even close to Mace. Mace moves much faster than Anakin. To prove this, in the ROTS novelization while Anakin is observing the fight, he considered Windu's Vaapad to be an "oblate sphere of purple fire, dozens of blades attacking from every angle." He admits that Mace is faster so everything you say about Dooku will be discounted by me.
How is it rubbish? I have yet to see examples where Anakin rips droids apart with his bare hands, or destroy an AT-TE with ease. So yes, Mace is stronger, physically and in terms of force powers. Don't even try to ABC here. In response to your statement regarding Dooku, he would manhandle him. You are talking about the guy who overpowered Sidious. What is Sidious compared to Dooku? Think about that!
You are discounting Shatterpoint completely. Focusing on Anakin, he will find it or overpower him too soon. His defenses will not protect him from that. Anakin will not get stronger as the fight goes on, Because the stronger he gets, the more the loop comes into play, the more time Mace has to find his Shatterpoint.
Mace is more technically skilled because he CREATED the form, therefore knows it inside out. Anakin on the other hand had only begun LEARNING it when he became a padawan. His mastery of Vapaad was far beyond that of Anakin's mastery of Djem So.
There is no need to spell every fourth word with a capital letter. It's sufficient for the names, but not Strong. Half the time it's like you're trying to ABC with this guy.