Originally posted by Gideon
Stop being inept, Darth Power. I haven't seen such rampant Dooku apologia dipped in willful ignorance and sarcasm since Nai was a permanent fixture in these parts. Nick Gillard is not a canon source; deal with it and move on.
If youd like to give me a reason why the sword ratings by the guy who choreographed the sword duels in the movies is to be completely ignored, then I'll be happy to accept that as non-cannon and move on.
But do you really not think NG had conversations with Lucas about how good these guys are supposed to be at sword fighting before choreographing the duels? Especially since he goes on about it in the making of ROTS, and to my knowledge Lucas has never refuted it.
Anyway Iv messaged the moderator if its a sufficient source to use as cannonicity. If he says no, then i wnt use that argument again.
As for the Dooku apologia im curious about your opinion. Do you think Dooku is so much below Mace in power that considerably overpowering the Count still does not put Anakin even close to Mace's league in swordsmanship? (Ignoring Vapaad's advantages over Darksiders for arguments sakes)
Originally posted by Gideon
He's about as proficient in debating as you are in expressing condescension with any noteworthy presence, you whore.
Well iv been debating on my own against what seems like the whole KMC here! So give me some credit.
Originally posted by The Ground
Yes physically, Mace is stronger than Yoda and Sidious, and he displayed multiple force power feats, such as push an AT-TE off a cliff with ease. The term: strength, is obviously something you are a stranger to. Let me refer you to Red Nemisis for a detailed definition.
And yet Mace's apparent superior strength to Sidious didnt show at all when they were Saber Clashing. So that can only suggest to me that Strength as applied to Sword fighting is something different to Strength thats applied when punching through droids.
And Dnt talk to me about Force feats as I never suggested Anakin could match Mace with the Force. And I really hope your not suggesting Mace can match Yoda or Sidious with the Force.
...
Really?
Originally posted by Darth Power
If youd like to give me a reason why the sword ratings by the guy who choreographed the sword duels in the movies is to be completely ignored, then I'll be happy to accept that as non-cannon and move on.
Because he is not George Lucas nor is he a member of LFL in a position to dictate canon policy; all he does is coordinate the stunts. He has no real working knowledge of the forms or the combatants themselves, he merely executes what Lucas wants. Hardly the stuff of high ranking interpreters of canon.
As for the Dooku apologia im curious about your opinion. Do you think Dooku is so much below Mace in power that considerably overpowering the Count still does not put Anakin even close to Mace's league in swordsmanship? (Ignoring Vapaad's advantages over Darksiders for arguments sakes)
That's the problem; you can't ignore the merits of Vaapad or of the shatterpoint charism. The only way that Anakin Skywalker can contend with Mace Windu is through use of the dark side of the Force; an energy that Windu can also use to his own advantage to nullify any advantage that Skywalker may have. The only way that a dark sider could conceivably dominate Mace Windu in the confines of a lightsaber duel is to kill him within the first critical seconds of the fight or overpower him with the Force; Anakin can do neither.
And yet Mace's apparent superior strength to Sidious didnt show at all when they were Saber Clashing. So that can only suggest to me that Strength as applied to Sword fighting is something different to Strength thats applied when punching through droids.
Don't be dense; Palpatine visibly struggled with Mace when their sabers were locked. The only reason he was able to compete with Mace at all on a physical level was his vast connection to the Force, able to compensate for a presumably low level of physical strength, agility, and mobility.
Originally posted by Gideon
...
That's the problem; you can't ignore the merits of Vaapad or of the shatterpoint charism. The only way that Anakin Skywalker can contend with Mace Windu is through use of the dark side of the Force; an energy that Windu can also use to his own advantage to nullify any advantage that Skywalker may have. The only way that a dark sider could conceivably dominate Mace Windu in the confines of a lightsaber duel is to kill him within the first critical seconds of the fight or overpower him with the Force; Anakin can do neither.
Fair enough. Mace will beat darkside anakin due to vapaad's advantage over darksiders. But do you agree that a dark side anakin is naturally as powerful as mace in a swordfight say if their both fighting lightsiders, or neutral force users, or even droids for instance?
Originally posted by Gideon
...Don't be dense; Palpatine visibly struggled with Mace when their sabers were locked. The only reason he was able to compete with Mace at all on a physical level was his vast connection to the Force, able to compensate for a presumably low level of physical strength, agility, and mobility.
yeah but does force enhanced strength not count? I think it counts particularly in Anakin's case who seems to have vast amounts of force reserves. Also Dooku who has fought mace in the past was astonished by anakin's sheer physical power. and that was before anakin completely gave in to his rage.
DARTH POWER:
Stop ignoring this.
Originally posted by Eminence
In the interest of not going back and forth again, let's tackle one stupid premise at a time.First up, the idea of "Anakin = Level 9, ergo Anakin = Mace." There are two major problems with your use of this "fact." One, Nick Gillard isn't necessarily a reputable canon source. At all. His version of Jedi combat is not corroborated by a single published canon source, or even noncanon or verbal sources.
Two, you've been intentionally ignoring one very significant piece of Gillard's statement:
"Obi-Wan is at a [b]level 8, which is where Anakin starts.
But Anakin jumps to level 9 -- and the difference between 8 and 9 is enormous. A Jedi can get to level 9, but that's the difference between light and dark."Which also doesn't really make sense given that Mace and Yoda are apparently level 9, but what's relevant here is that - as I pointed out - Gillard made it clear that the dark side is what made Anakin "a level 9," and that [at the beginning of RotS] he's a level 8, just like Obi-Wan. Gillard also points out that there's an "enormous" gap between 8 and 9, meaning that dark side Anakin [9] is an [enormously] greater swordsman than Jedi Anakin [8]. And since Mace Windu is a level 9, he too is an [enormously] greater swordsman than Jedi Anakin. Of course, while dark side Anakin is on an equal tier as him in swordsmanship, Mace still has shatterpoint and Vaapad.
'Nuff said.
So either acknowledge that Nick Gillard isn't necessarily a canon source and that you bringing him up in every post is stupid and futile, or acknowledge that what he actually said isn't what you said he said and is really what I said he said, meaning that you bringing him up in every post is stupid, futile, and completely counterproductive to the point you're trying to make.
Either way, I win. [/B]
Originally posted by Eminence
DARTH POWER:Stop ignoring this.
Well NG being cannon or not, its quite obvious Dark Side Anakin is at least close to Mace in swordplay, just by the way he so heavily overpowered dooku..
but because its darkside anakin, Mace would win the same way he beat Sidious(through Vapaad's advantage against darksiders).. I beleive iv already admitted this.
However im not convinced shatterpoint is a guaranteed victory in a saber fight.
Now im waiting for someone to admit that aside from Vapaad's advantage over darksiders Darkside Anakin is at least close to Mace's league in sabers. He was a match for Dooku as a Jedi, and as a Sith he was considerably more Powerful.