Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well NG being cannon or not, its quite obvious Dark Side Anakin is at least close to Mace in swordplay, just by the way he so heavily overpowered dooku..
but because its darkside anakin, Mace would win the same way he beat Sidious(through Vapaad's advantage against darksiders).. I beleive iv already admitted this.
However im not convinced shatterpoint is a guaranteed victory in a saber fight.
Now im waiting for someone to admit that aside from Vapaad's advantage over darksiders Darkside Anakin is at least close to Mace's league in sabers. He was a match for Dooku as a Jedi, and as a Sith he was considerably more Powerful.
No. This has been pointed out several times already: Mace is stronger and faster. Vader would certainly not rival Mace's Vapaad, and where is proof of this? Hell, Anakin could barely see his attacks when he witnessed them firsthand. Even if you took away Vapaad, he is still a proficient master of Juyo. I admit, taking Vapaad would rob him of his advantage, but Windu is beyond Vader in terms of force knowledge and power.
Oh and you discount the loop entirely. As long as Windu retains the loop, Vader's chances of victory are slim. But of course you look only to his skill with a blade, argue nonsensical points, give up, then return to take away his Vapaad. Why don't I take away Anakins Djem So? Because then the fight would be rigged in Maces favor. So why do the same to Windu?
Nobody stated that Shatterpoint would give him an automatic victory, just an advantage. For someone as powerful as Sidious, perceiving a shatterpoint is much more difficult than for Anakin. Regardless, at the end he saw the shatterpoint of Sidious, and ultimately the shatterpoint of the Dark Side. I guess this must be lost on you, as you have not read the novelization, or Shatterpoint for that matter.
Originally posted by The Ground
So what you're saying is, Anakin would match Windu if he did not have Vapaad and Shatterpoint? You've gone a long way from Djem So>Vapaad. I congratulate you.
NO shatterpoint's a wild factor to be honest and not any kind of guarantee..
and i didnt say if Mace didnt have Vapaad.. I said if you ignore Vapaad's natural advantage on darksiders.. as that would not affect Yoda, or Obi1 for example.. it would not affect a non-force user, or even a neutral force user for that matter.. ONLY a Darksider.
and i dnt think I ever said Djem So > Vapaad. I simply said Vapaad was not specifically designed for Duelling whilst Djem So was, so I dnt believe Vapaad to have better technical skill in a duel.
So I congratulate you for not understanding a word that iv said in the last 8 pages and twisting everything i do say.. And then you say im terrible at this.. WHATEVER
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
NO shatterpoint's a wild factor to be honest and not any kind of guarantee..
and i didnt say if Mace didnt have Vapaad.. I said if you ignore Vapaad's natural advantage on darksiders.. as that would not affect Yoda, or Obi1 for example.. it would not affect a non-force user, or even a neutral force user for that matter.. ONLY a Darksider.and i dnt think I ever said Djem So > Vapaad. I simply said Vapaad was not specifically designed for Duelling whilst Djem So was, so I dnt believe Vapaad to have better technical skill in a duel.
So I congratulate you for not understanding a word that iv said in the last 8 pages and twisting everything i do say.. And then you say im terrible at this.. WHATEVER
Vapaad can work against a lightsider. Mace can still draw from his inner darkness and use as a weapon of light.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Vapaad can work against a lightsider. Mace can still draw from his inner darkness and use as a weapon of light.
Yeah darkside Anakin also gains strength from his dark emotions. And he has A LOT of rage to draw from, as well as practically unlimited force reserves. Dooku also gained power from the dark side which is why he was more powerful as a sith.
Originally posted by The Ground
No. This has been pointed out several times already: Mace is stronger and faster.
No hes certainly not stronger than a guy who completely overpowered Dooku with his strength. + Anakin gets stronger as the fight goes on, especially when hes drawing power from his rage..+ hes drawing power from basically unlimited force reserves. So Anakin DEFINETELY has the advantage in strength.
In speed Mace MAY have the advantage. But you do realise Anakin is incredibly fast himself right? and probably has faster reflexes than Mace.
Originally posted by The Ground
Vader would certainly not rival Mace's Vapaad, and where is proof of this?.
It would be difficult with the "Loop" using Anakins own strength against him. Yes.
Originally posted by The Ground
Hell, Anakin could barely see his attacks when he witnessed them firsthand.?.
When Mace had a loop with Sidious giving Mace Sidious's speed right?
And why does it matter that he culdnt see his attacks? He could feel him in the force, and thats all that matters (your eyes can deceive you. dnt trust them)
Originally posted by The Ground
Even if you took away Vapaad, he is still a proficient master of Juyo. I admit, taking Vapaad would rob him of his advantage, but Windu is beyond Vader in terms of force knowledge and power..?.
No ones talking about taking away Vapaad. Im saying Mace would only win in a fight against Anakin because of the loop it creates with a darksider. But the fact is Darkside Anakin is on par with Windu as a swordsman.
Originally posted by The Ground
Oh and you discount the loop entirely. As long as Windu retains the loop, Vader's chances of victory are slim. But of course you look only to his skill with a blade, argue nonsensical points, give up, then return to take away his Vapaad. Why don't I take away Anakins Djem So? Because then the fight would be rigged in Maces favor. So why do the same to Windu?..?.
You dnt have a clue what iv been saying.
Originally posted by The Ground
Nobody stated that Shatterpoint would give him an automatic victory, just an advantage. For someone as powerful as Sidious, perceiving a shatterpoint is much more difficult than for Anakin. Regardless, at the end he saw the shatterpoint of Sidious, and ultimately the shatterpoint of the Dark Side. I guess this must be lost on you, as you have not read the novelization, or Shatterpoint for that matter.
Iv got both novelisations you moron. Mace saw Sidious's shatterpoint but wasnt able to take advantage of it. Therefore shatterpoint is no gurantee of anything.
Originally posted by Eminence
That's the point. Taking away one character's attributes in an attempt to make the other character look good is inane and desperate.
No the point is Darkside Anakin is as powerful a swordman and as good a swordman as Mace, but Mace would win in a direct fight with anakin because of the Loop.
Theres nothing desperate there. Its a perfectly logical point, which you cant handle. Because you dnt like the idea of Anakin being Mace's equal in any way.
Look Mace beat Sidious in a swordfight using the Loop. But does that make Mace more powerful than Sidious? No. Does it even make him a better swordsman than Sidious? No.
Originally posted by Darth Power
No the point is Darkside Anakin is as powerful a swordman and as good a swordman as Mace, but Mace would win in a direct fight with anakin because of the Loop.
I'm curious if you're trying to imitate a graduate of Nai Fohl's My-Word-Is-Law-Without-The-Benefit-Of-Evidence Academy for Desperate Nerds anywhere or if you actually are one. You haven't proven any of this at all.
Theres nothing desperate there. Its a perfectly logical point, which you cant handle. Because you dnt like the idea of Anakin being Mace's equal in any way.
The Holy Trinity of God, Ushgarak, and James Spader named me the official Logic Arbiter; I decide what is and what is not logical around here and as someone who hasn't a particular interest in either Mace or Anakin, I can tell you that your point has not been logical.
Look Mace beat Sidious in a swordfight using the Loop. But does that make Mace more powerful than Sidious? No. Does it even make him a better swordsman than Sidious? No.
That's pretty dense. While Mace is not more powerful than the Emperor, when immersed in Vaapad, he is [if the novelization is to be believed] at least Palpatine's equal, with the shatterpoint charism tipping the scales in his favor.
And that's looking at a purely overall spectrum; in refined combat skills, Palpatine hasn't touched a lightsaber in over a decade. Meanwhile, Mace is out sparring and on the frontline regularly. Both of them are masters of Juyo, making them "high end masters of multiple forms," but by virtue of practice and greater strength, Mace is probably the more skilled swordsman.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
No hes certainly not stronger than a guy who completely overpowered Dooku with his strength. + Anakin gets stronger as the fight goes on, especially when hes drawing power from his rage..+ hes drawing power from basically unlimited force reserves. So Anakin DEFINETELY has the advantage in strength.
In speed Mace MAY have the advantage. But you do realise Anakin is incredibly fast himself right? and probably has faster reflexes than Mace.It would be difficult with the "Loop" using Anakins own strength against him. Yes.
When Mace had a loop with Sidious giving Mace Sidious's speed right?
And why does it matter that he culdnt see his attacks? He could feel him in the force, and thats all that matters (your eyes can deceive you. dnt trust them)No ones talking about taking away Vapaad. Im saying Mace would only win in a fight against Anakin because of the loop it creates with a darksider. But the fact is Darkside Anakin is on par with Windu as a swordsman.
You dnt have a clue what iv been saying.
Iv got both novelisations you moron. Mace saw Sidious's shatterpoint but wasnt able to take advantage of it. Therefore shatterpoint is no gurantee of anything.
I was responding to ares' shit, not yours. It has been made it clear that you lose because you have already admitted defeat several times. So why continue?
If he took advantage of Sidious' shatterpoint, it would have been the end of the dark side completely. He was concentrating on Sidious and not on Anakin, you idiot. Again, the novelizations comment was directed at ares, not you. Reading your previous arguments you've certainly read them.
You are saying Anakin has unlimited force reserves? We are still talking about the Jedi that could only MATCH Obi-Wan? Where has Anakin demonstrated anything spectacular with the force?
Mace without the loop would still have a chance against him. Think for a second. Mace is stronger and faster at the beginning, therefore he has the opportunity to defeat him early. This is highly unlikely, but even so, Anakin needs time to match and eventually surpass Mace. However this situation could work to Windu's advantage just as easily, because the stronger Skywalker gets, the more time Mace would have to search for his shatterpoint. Because Anakin is not as powerful as Sidious, the time required to find and exploit it is significantly reduced.
Anakin may have the strength to defeat Windu later in the duel, but he DEFINETELY does not have the strength to take Mace on at the start. On a side note, what are you basing your argument on there? As far as I recall, Anakin has never done anything that suggests he is stronger than Mace.
I have grown tired of this nonsense, so I will let my HK droid continue .
Weary resignation: Oh yes, Anakin is DEFINETELY on par with Mace.
Query: I mean, how could Windu, THE master of the DEADLIEST form, lose to a master of Djem So?
Answer: Easily.
Observation: This is exactly the kind of shit posted by crack addicts.
Query: How is Djem So equal to Vapaad, the fastest, strongest and most deadliest form?
Indignant answer: It is not, and any meatbag who thinks otherwise is a waste of space and should be terminated.
In conclusion, you and and ares should be terminated. Sleep tight.
lol nice.
boastful observation: I would beat Meatbag Windu in fight to the death by simply sniping him from a galaxy away...
comment: or I could use my godly control of Revan's mind to use his apocalyptic force storm on Windu. Revan would surely anihilate him for me.
recollection: I once told the Jedi Exile that force powers resembling the lightning variant are extremely effective against scum such as Windu.. and remote detonation of detpacks implanted into windu in his sleep would look like fireworks.
statement: I hope this act of violence will make my behavior core glow
proud declaration: I am awesome. lol
More fuel for the fire:
The narrator says this about Anakin in RotS novelization:
"This is Anakin Skywalker:
The most powerful Jedi of his generation. Perhaps of any generation. The fastest. The strongest. An unbeatable pilot. An unstoppable warrior. On the ground, in the air or sea or space, there is no one even close. He has not just power, not just skill, but dash: that rare, invaluable combination of boldness and grace. He is the best there is at what he does. The best there has ever been. And he knows it."
Mace says this:
"Skywalker is arguably the most powerful Jedi alive, and he is still getting stronger." - Mace Windu
Dosen't mean he beats Mace, but it gives credibility to his power.