Elektra vs Batman

Originally posted by jinzin
Taskmaster wasn't brought up only because he was using DD's style. That's just a kicker. He was brought up to show how Elektra can take down elites since Daredevil1 seems to be under the impression that she's incapible.

I'd say that if she were fighting a character like DD or Bullseye she'd lose her cool. But fighting other characters she far far far more consistently portrayed as a cool, calm, level headed fighter. But I respect your opinion.

Ill just say that someone would need to take down more than Tasky for me to think they can take elites down on the regular. I dont doubt shes incapable of it, just that we need to see it on a more consistent basis.

Elektra kinda lost her cool when she squared off with Shang briefly. As with Ghostmaker, Enyrys, thugs, etc.

Originally posted by jinzin
Cause he killed her... I think you underestimate how much psychological trauma that caused her. Even years and years after the fact other villains have played off of what Bullseye did to her to get under her skin.

Originally posted by jrodslam
Ill just say that someone would need to take down more than Tasky for me to think they can take elites down on the regular. I dont doubt shes incapable of it, just that we need to see it on a more consistent basis.

Elektra kinda lost her cool when she squared off with Shang briefly. As with Ghostmaker, Enyrys, thugs, etc.

😕

She has though.. the only people who'r high ranking tiers that she doesn't fair so hot against are DD and Bulls and she has CIS in affect against them both..

As stated before, She's taken down Tasky, Razorfist, Zaran, has a legit win over Wolverine, and another one over a weakened Wolvie (who I'd imagine still be second or third tier), beat Silver Samurai, had DD at sai point in two panels.
I'll grant she doesn't have a wealth of appearances to base her character off of but in the ones she does have, she does extremely well in.

Everyone has their moments, Batman's lost his cool fighting badguys o'plenty.

Originally posted by jinzin
😕

She has though.. the only people who'r high ranking tiers that she doesn't fair so hot against are DD and Bulls and she has CIS in affect against them both..

As stated before, She's taken down Tasky, Razorfist, Zaran, has a legit win over Wolverine, and another one over a weakened Wolvie (who I'd imagine still be second or third tier), beat Silver Samurai, had DD at sai point in two panels.
I'll grant she doesn't have a wealth of appearances to base her character off of but in the ones she does have, she does extremely well in.

Everyone has their moments, Batman's lost his cool fighting badguys o'plenty.

I wouldnt label Zaran nor Razorfist as an elite ma. Tasky is elite in skill, but that doesnt always get him very far. Did she actually beat Silver Samurai? Where was this? It wasnt shown in the scans you posted pages back. As far as DD goes, he always holds back on her. What issue is it that you mention she had the sai to his throat in 2 panels? Are far as Wolvie goes, ill give her the point. Although didnt others call it cis or pis?

As far as loosing cool goes, im just saying that Elektras more likely to do it, while Bats is more likely to use his head and stay cool and take advantage of Elektras hothead.

Originally posted by jrodslam
I wouldnt label Zaran nor Razorfist as an elite ma. Tasky is elite in skill, but that doesnt always get him very far. Did she actually beat Silver Samurai? Where was this? It wasnt shown in the scans you posted pages back. As far as DD goes, he always holds back on her. What issue is it that you mention she had the sai to his throat in 2 panels? Are far as Wolvie goes, ill give her the point. Although didnt others call it cis or pis?

As far as loosing cool goes, im just saying that Elektras more likely to do it, while Bats is more likely to use his head and stay cool and take advantage of Elektras hothead.

Zaran perhaps not, Razorfist has some very impressive feats for himself though. Top tier? Maybe not, but definitely close.

Taskmaster has a winning record over Spiderman, Iron Man, and Captain America. I'd say that's far enough.

Yeah she sticks her sai in the back of his neck, it was Elektra vol II issue 3 or 4 I believe.

Agreed on the point to DD, but she also does for him too, anyways it happened in Elektra vol.II As well but the issue number escapes me at the moment.

Against Wolverine I think people were bringing up EOTS as evidence for her but ignoring that Wolverine was on life support a while before and that she got the jump on him.. It's still impressive though and probably puts her into a second tier feat.

She has beaten him legit though which wasn't PIS or CIS in that instance she was just better.

Like I said she far more cool and collected than not. The way you're talking about her she sounds like Punisher lol. She has had psychological problems in the past a big portion of that dealing with her good and evil sides trying to get the best of her. I think it is fair to say that she has a more a hothead than Batman, but I don't think it would really come into play in a fight with the guy.

elektra same walk same perfume

surprised elektra only got 5 votes.

Originally posted by spidey-dude
surprised elektra only got 5 votes.

I'm not, she's not really a well known character. As I said before most people only recognize her from guest appearances and even then it's only from DD.

Originally posted by jinzin
[Bshe's not really a well known character. [/B]

Originally posted by Battlehammer
[B]but it is more stated...............Wolverine never said anything to DD like he has said about elektra. Hell even what he said in enemy of the state were not even his own words, not to mention the fact he never even commented directly to DD.

What do you mean they were not his own words, as it was from Logans thoughts. As it was directed to DD since he was fighting DD at the time and had a host of ninjas helping him IIRc.

Y
That has nothing to do with the hands ability to control some one period.

True but it doesn't infer that the hand picked her for being better then DD either.

Yea and? DD would have been stomp just as fast if not faster

Then Electra its possible but considering his average and overall better record then Electra, if I were betting well DD's would do better against Gorgon then Electra IMO. Considering his record of course.

Originally posted by jinzin
[B]Cap was dominated the entire fight you're reffering to. 😐
The only way he was able to turn the tide was by pulling out a weapon Taskmaster didn't know he had while Tasky was gloating...

Well considering Tasky had weapons I'd say its fair and since he had the Tasky had the suprise to boot. Point is Cap pulled it off and had the advantage and Tasky again had to what????? Run Away.

Aside from the fact that you cling to Bullseye killing an all too human Elektra before several upgrades you're ignoring, NOW you're clinging to two plot devices and ignoring that the fight ended before Cap even had a chance of "winning".

Several upgrades LOL first prove that, last I check Daredevil constantly improves........there several upgrades LOL. There goes that. Fight ended yeah with Tasky having the disadvantage and running away and having surprise on his side or sneak attack. Definitely circumstances I'd say so.

He was losing, he was being dominated.
Taskmaster has also beat him in three panels starting with his back to him and was also beating on Cap until Cap had help come.

Power packs not in continuity. You can't change the fact that Cap had the edge last and Tasky ran. Also you can't change there first encounter of Tasky surprise attacking Cap and running way like his last fight to begin with.

The man's curbstomped the Cat, Razorfist, and was going hit for hit with Daredevil.. How is beating this guy in two hits using DD's style not impressive?

No were did I say its not it just doesn't insinuate its in leagues of DD's ability if you look at there overall record.

In a future rematch that's STILL before her second rebirth.. Stop ignoring what you don't like.

Eh seems like your just picking and choosing as well.

Originally posted by Daredevil1
Well considering Tasky had weapons I'd say its fair and since he had the Tasky had the suprise to boot. Point is Cap pulled it off and had the advantage and Tasky again had to what????? Run Away.

It wasn't a friggin surprise attack... Taskmaster announced himself and they even had a full blown conversation before the fight kicked off.
Cap "pulled it off" by pulling a weapon out of nowhere that Taskmaster didn't even know existed. Taskmaster even alludes that he's surprised by it. After that Cap knocked him off the edge of the structure they were on. Taskmaster didn't run away because he was a shoe in to lose, he always books from fights, even the one's he's winning.

Fact is he was curbin Cap that whole fight until Cap pulled his energy sheild out on him. You can't look at that fight and tell me it DOESN'T show Taskmaster as an elite fighter, even if you think Cap had a decisive win at the end. 😬

Originally posted by Daredevil1
Several upgrades LOL first prove that, last I check Daredevil constantly improves........there several upgrades LOL. There goes that. Fight ended yeah with Tasky having the disadvantage and running away and having surprise on his side or sneak attack. Definitely circumstances I'd say so.

What do you want me to do post scans of her entire comic runs?
Don't blame me because you don't know about her character.

Lol, DD's said several times that he gets out of shape or isn't at the top of his game if he doesn't constantly train, so no he's not constantly improving anywhere NEAR a point that would compare to the physical mystical and psionic developments that Elektra has gone through over the years...

Cap was at a disadvantage during that fight too. The fight ended inconclusively. Cap didn't go after him, I guess we can assume he gave up too.

Originally posted by Daredevil1
Power packs not in continuity. You can't change the fact that Cap had the edge last and Tasky ran. Also you can't change there first encounter of Tasky surprise attacking Cap and running way like his last fight to begin with.

Originally posted by Daredevil1
No were did I say its not it just doesn't insinuate its in leagues of DD's ability if you look at there overall record.

Their overall record?

What has Daredevil done that puts him at a higher caliber than Elektra? Seriously. Hey, remember when I asked you to give me an example of DD taking someone down on Taskmasters level in two hits.. Can you do that?
How about dropping someone on Silver Samurai's level of skill and strength as descisively?
How about blocking automatic gunfire?
Blitzing accross 50 yards and multiple gunmen without them even able to recognize what happened?
Or using telepathy?
Can he take Wolverine down when Wolverine's not mind controlled or written by Ennis?
Has Daredevil ever swiped a gun out of Punisher's hands before Punisher even had a chance of realizing what happened?

😐

Originally posted by Daredevil1
Eh seems like your just picking and choosing as well.

Uh no... We don't use Superman Prime for every Superman debate. We don't use cosmic Spidey for every Spiderman thread. We don't use an adamantiumless Wolverine for every Wolverine thread. We don't use classic human Sabretooth for every Sabes thread.
We use current versions of the characters we debate. Current Elektra (or at least the last Elektra we saw before she got body-switched) is not worth comparing to the old one. When she got aced by Bullseye or fought him it was before her second rebirth. Before her hand modifications, training, and awakening of her new powers....

As Hammer said.
The Hand thinks Elektra is worth more to them than Daredevil.

Wolverine thinks she's the greatest ninja in the world, period.

Just watching her go down made Wolverine second guess himself completely...

On the other hand DD's just an annoyance.

Originally posted by jinzin

As Hammer said.
The Hand thinks Elektra is worth more to them than Daredevil.

that alone may disqualify Elektra from the top tier. The hand are worldclass incompetents, no reason to trust their intel.

Originally posted by Daredevil1
What do you mean they were not his own words, as it was from Logans thoughts. As it was directed to DD since he was fighting DD at the time and had a host of ninjas helping him IIRc.

How did they help him? He never even attacked with them.

Originally posted by Daredevil1
True but it doesn't infer that the hand picked her for being better then DD either.

Originally posted by Daredevil1
Then Electra its possible but considering his average and overall better record then Electra, if I were betting well DD's would do better against Gorgon then Electra IMO. Considering his record of course.

he die horriably.

Originally posted by Master-Borg
that alone may disqualify Elektra from the top tier. The hand are worldclass incompetents, no reason to trust their intel.

😂

Wouldn't that mean that they'd want highest of tiers in their ranks? hahaha!

Actually the Hand are a lot deadlier than people give them credit for, they just make a bad habit of trying to kill icons which isn't good for business.

I mean if you think about it their cannon fodder has taken down an Omega Level Sentinal, almost killed Captain America, were fighting the New Avengers to a virtual standstill (actually fritzed out Iron Man with a sword strike for a moment) until Iron Man was about to use his repulsors. I mean, hell, if you really think about it, their cannon fodder took down over 200 low level super villains and heroes in an attempt to strengthen their ranks and then they became an internationl threat.

Finally, their masters are actually extremely deadly. They've generated powers that follow suit with Iron Fist, have had Shang Chi fighting a very defensive battle, and had Wolverine looking for the plot device of the Yashida honor sword to even cause damage to one let alone beat one.

generally though you're right. They're the guys with the red shirts ha!

Originally posted by Daredevil1
Then Electra its possible but considering his average and overall better record then Electra, if I were betting well DD's would do better against Gorgon then Electra IMO. Considering his record of course.

😂 you think DD would do better against a guy who soloed Wolverine AND Elektra in several panels after being ambushed by SHIELD agents and freakin cruise missles? hahaha! Oh man that's rich.

Originally posted by jinzin
Zaran perhaps not, Razorfist has some very impressive feats for himself though. Top tier? Maybe not, but definitely close.

Hmm. Razorfist close to top tier? Iiiii dooont know, but ill let that go. I guess.

Originally posted by jinzin
Taskmaster has a winning record over Spiderman, Iron Man, and Captain America. I'd say that's far enough.

Heres the thing though. Ok Tasky may have done well vs these guys, or even have a winning record. However, Spiderman always seems to have trouble with skilled opponents. Also, when he fought....i mean schooled Iron Man..... I cant say much about that. Iron Man wanting to go h2h? C'mon. His stolen skills and abilities are perfect to beat those 2. Does he really have a winning record against Cap? Point im trying to make is that Elektra putting him down in 2 hits is a nice feat, but just because others cant do it the same doesnt mean Elektra has an edge over them(Daredevil, Cap, etc) in a fight.

Originally posted by jinzin
Yeah she sticks her sai in the back of his neck, it was Elektra vol II issue 3 or 4 I believe.

Agreed on the point to DD, but she also does for him too, anyways it happened in Elektra vol.II As well but the issue number escapes me at the moment.

Cool. Ive been trying to get her series/books for the longest. Still trying.

Although she may also hold back on DD to an extent, DD holds back more than she does when they tussle.

Originally posted by jinzin
Against Wolverine I think people were bringing up EOTS as evidence for her but ignoring that Wolverine was on life support a while before and that she got the jump on him.. It's still impressive though and probably puts her into a second tier feat.

She has beaten him legit though which wasn't PIS or CIS in that instance she was just better.

I dont have to say about that. Ive never seen the fight, ive just always heard it contested *cough* Battlehammer*cough*.

Originally posted by jinzin
Like I said she far more cool and collected than not. The way you're talking about her she sounds like Punisher lol. She has had psychological problems in the past a big portion of that dealing with her good and evil sides trying to get the best of her. I think it is fair to say that she has a more a hothead than Batman, but I don't think it would really come into play in a fight with the guy.

More cool and collected than not? Not sure. Her style is what shes used to, and for her its natural, so it can be said that shes more calm and collect than not, but to others looking at her fight, she fights with more ferocity than the average ma. Her hits are more severe and punishing on average. Lol. im not trying to make her sound like the Punisher, but she does fight almost everyone like they molested her in the past or something, lol. Dont get me wrong, i dont think shed start losing it immediately when fighting Bats, i just think that after some exchanges, and Bats talking and taunting, she may get frustrated and then lose it.

Originally posted by jrodslam
Hmm. Razorfist close to top tier? Iiiii dooont know, but ill let that go. I guess.

Hell, he does have some very impressive showings against first tier fighters, a large sum of which are better or equal to those we've place in the second tier.

Originally posted by jrodslam
Heres the thing though. Ok Tasky may have done well vs these guys, or even have a winning record. However, Spiderman always seems to have trouble with skilled opponents. Also, when he fought....i mean schooled Iron Man..... I cant say much about that. Iron Man wanting to go h2h? C'mon. His stolen skills and abilities are perfect to beat those 2. Does he really have a winning record against Cap? Point im trying to make is that Elektra putting him down in 2 hits is a nice feat, but just because others cant do it the same doesnt mean Elektra has an edge over them(Daredevil, Cap, etc) in a fight.

Originally posted by jrodslam
Cool. Ive been trying to get her series/books for the longest. Still trying.

Although she may also hold back on DD to an extent, DD holds back more than she does when they tussle.

I dont have to say about that. Ive never seen the fight, ive just always heard it contested *cough* Battlehammer*cough*.

More cool and collected than not? Not sure. Her style is what shes used to, and for her its natural, so it can be said that shes more calm and collect than not, but to others looking at her fight, she fights with more ferocity than the average ma. Her hits are more severe and punishing on average. Lol. im not trying to make her sound like the Punisher, but she does fight almost everyone like they molested her in the past or something, lol. Dont get me wrong, i dont think shed start losing it immediately when fighting Bats, i just think that after some exchanges, and Bats talking and taunting, she may get frustrated and then lose it.

Granted, just pointing it out.

Ok.

Well, I'm basing it off her entire career. 😬

She does fight more viciously but it's not always because she's ill tempered.

Originally posted by jinzin
Lol, DD's said several times that he gets out of shape or isn't at the top of his game if he doesn't constantly train, so no he's not constantly improving anywhere NEAR a point that would compare to the physical mystical and psionic developments that Elektra has gone through over the years...

In DD defense, the only time he really isnt on top of his game is if hes injured, coming off of an injury or hasnt had any sleep. Other than that hes pretty much never rusty.

Originally posted by jinzin
What has Daredevil done that puts him at a higher caliber than Elektra? Seriously. Hey, remember when I asked you to give me an example of DD taking someone down on Taskmasters level in two hits.. Can you do that?

Hey thats not fair jin. How many times have there been debates and something like that has been mentioned? we go by whats shown by characters on a normal basis. I can and do put DD over her for what he consistently shows all through his career. Ok so he cant take Tasky out in 2 hits, but hes beat him nonetheless.

Originally posted by jinzin
How about dropping someone on Silver Samurai's level of skill and strength as descisively?

In the scans you posted, it didnt actually show her beating Silver Samurai. DD has however dropped SS in a fight. He didnt stay down, but keeping him down wasnt really the main objective.

Originally posted by jinzin
How about blocking automatic gunfire?

Dont ever recall him doing it, although he has saved her life on more than 1 occasion.

Originally posted by jinzin
Blitzing accross 50 yards and multiple gunmen without them even able to recognize what happened?

I doubt it. But has Elektra ever taken on 100 Yakuza armed with guns with nothing but a stick?

Originally posted by jinzin
Or using telepathy?

He actually has used telepathy.

Originally posted by jinzin
Can he take Wolverine down when Wolverine's not mind controlled or written by Ennis?

Can he? Sure why not.

Originally posted by jinzin
Has Daredevil ever swiped a gun out of Punisher's hands before Punisher even had a chance of realizing what happened?

I dont think DD has ever tried.

Originally posted by jinzin
Uh no... We don't use Superman Prime for every Superman debate. We don't use cosmic Spidey for every Spiderman thread. We don't use an adamantiumless Wolverine for every Wolverine thread. We don't use classic human Sabretooth for every Sabes thread.
We use current versions of the characters we debate. Current Elektra (or at least the last Elektra we saw before she got body-switched) is not worth comparing to the old one. When she got aced by Bullseye or fought him it was before her second rebirth. Before her hand modifications, training, and awakening of her new powers....

Question. When was her second birth? When did she get new powers or awaken them rather? How do we know the Elektra youre talking about isnt a skrull?

Originally posted by jinzin
As Hammer said.
The Hand thinks Elektra is worth more to them than Daredevil.

I think shes easier to capture and taint is why they wanted her more than him.

Originally posted by jinzin
Wolverine thinks she's the greatest ninja in the world, period.

I wouldnt argue that.

Originally posted by Battlehammer
Actaully they were not. His mind was being manipulated/ messed with and controlled. Thoses were far from his own thoughts.

I highly disagree Battlehammer. When Wolvie mentioned that Matt and other street lvl'ers had to be the best because he/they had no superpowers, those were his thoughts. Not everything Wolvie was thinking was controlled or tainted.