Originally posted by Mindset
Just a little nitpick, in the scan with the sniper, he was not aiming at Batman, he was aiming at Mr. Freeze. Batman tried to move Mr. Freeze, but he says the sniper is too good and the bullet is too fast.And with the bullet dodging feat, is that Bruce, why does he have a gun? And how is Reaper shooting with sickle's for hands?
The point is that he is fully aware of what's around him at all times. Regardless if he was the target or not.
Originally posted by thadarknite84
"Dictates"....... laughing So basically she is incapable of thinking on her own........ hysterical.... Do you understand that with this statement, you just proved just how incapable of a fighter she is compared to Batman? Think about it.
Dude you're reaching WAAYYYYYY to much.
Originally posted by thadarknite84
If someone was one of the world's top three, most skilled chest players. "Dictating" every move, with his/hers own intelligence and years of experience,. And let's say someone happens to be in the world's top five, most skillfully chest players using TP to dictate how they move. Would you truly feel that they are anywhere near the same level?
Originally posted by thadarknite84
And yet all you've explained, is that she's using to help her fight. You haven't prove how it's "apart" of her will to fight. Unlike Shiva's "skill" (not ability) to dictate her fights with astonishing eye coordination and concentration. Similar to the likes of Michael Jordan, who had an exceptional ability to dictate his games. Basket ball and fighting require physical ability as well. Unlike what you say in these statements.
Dude, it's not just a statment, it's a fact. Most of fighting is in the head. Physicality plays into it sure, but it's absurd to think that physicality is everything in a fight. You just don't have enough real world experience to know that where as I do.
Originally posted by thadarknite84
doh If they have no skill or experience, physical attributes would play a role. And if not, there shouldn't be any claims that Cap/or Slade would outright beat Batman for the majority. Because if that's the case, then physical attributes would be a factor for the majority of fighting. Which would only help prove my point.
God t's like trying to keep a second grader to pay attention in class.
Let's review the train of thought here.
You THINK that Elektra's TP doesn't play a factor into their fight because it has nothing to do with her kicking and punching/physicality.
Yet most of fighting isn't about physicality but attributes that are in no way physical.
You put Elektra against a 340 pound heavyweight boxer and she'd own the shit out of him because of factors that have nothing to do with physicality.
Hell, Wolverine's DONE it.
Originally posted by thadarknite84
Please explain to me why you even feel that Elektra has a high chance of assassinating Bruce Wayne just because he doesn't have his utility belt. As if it has never augured to him the probability of a assassination attempt on a high profile, Miltie billionaire like himself. How are you so oblivious to just how self aware and focus Batman is.Catches an arrow shot by Green Arrow behind his back without looking:
http://img211.imageshack.us/my.php?image=asdfii8.jpg
Detects a bullet fired by a sniper after its shot at him and quickly dodges it:
http://img219.imageshack.us/my.php?image=detectivecomics8042005page218f.jpg
http://img219.imageshack.us/my.php?image=detectivecomics8042005page229q.jpg
Here, Bruce is hiding in a tree, and an arrow is shot at him without him being aware of it. Then, before the arrow can reach him, he tosses a batarang at it casually, splits it in half, and splits the bow in half as well. This just goes to show how awesome Batman's reflexes/reaction speeds and accuracy are:
God, there you go again, when it comes to trains of thought and you, the train has left the station.
I'm not even posing the scenario that Elektra would outright assassinate Batman, nor am I attacking Batman's self awareness, so your strawman like your rationalities from before is USELESS.
Again, and try to pay attentiont this time, the only reason I'm bringing up this type of scenario is because you where whinning about how Elektra would never fight Batman where he didn't have his utility belt in spite of the stipulations of the match.
Originally posted by thadarknite84
And I now realize that Batman is possibly faster than Eelektra.
Okay when you have scans of Batman blocking machine gun fire by the individual bullet, or moving faster than the human eye can detect underwater... Then maybe you can tell me about how Batman's as fast as Elektra nevermind faster.
Originally posted by thadarknite84
Do you wanna know the one thing people never mention? That he has add weight to 210 lbs. frame. The Bat-Suit it self, is made of 15 micro-layers of nomex-reinforce fabric along with body armor. Add the light weighted single piece cowl, cape with weighted tips, utility belt, weapons, and gadgets. And all while doing this.....Moving in-between machine gunfire with ease and then kicks the Reaper (who is an expert marksman):
http://img219.imageshack.us/my.php?image=detectivecomics577199ik.jpg
Not to say that there aren't scans of Bats weaving through machine gun fire, but let's get real every hero does that, how many heroes can actually react to the bullets fast enough to deflect them?
Elektras one of them, Batman isn't.
Originally posted by thadarknite84
And the speed it would take for Batman to preform this feat, not only requires more momentum. But a lot more effort as well, compared to blocking bullets with sais (Batman's using his entire body to completely dodge the bullets). So without all the added weight, Batman would be even faster + better fighting skills. So her chances are still low.
Using more effort an momentum? 😂
Exactly, Batman has to use MORE EFFORT to dodge through two six shooters than Elektra needed to deflect a full machine gun clip...
And uh.. Really, you want to use Batman year two as evidence? Okay. In that case Reaper shot the shit out of Batman in that same story, wasn't any dodging there. In fact, Reaper beat the crap out of Batman, and Reaper was just an old vigilante when he beat Batman, he had nowhere NEAR Elektras training, speed, ninja tricks, or fighting abilities. But hey let's pick and choose what we THINK makes Batman look better right?
Originally posted by thadarknite84It's a fight. 😐
Yes, exactly. She is using it as a "weapon", like Batman uses his utility belt for fighting. That is what you fail to understand, that TP is a "mental Weapon", not a punch or kick.
Kicks and punches? WEAPONS!
The thread stipulated no sais, no batbelt; wht YOU FAIL to understand is that fights have considerably less to do with kicks and punches than you want to believe.
Originally posted by jinzin
🤨 It's like instincts dictate the actions of some fighters, which Elektra is also capable of, or did you miss the part where most of her street level leveling career was BEFORE her TP even came to be a part of her character?Dude you're reaching WAAYYYYYY to much.
TP is not like instincts at all. Instincts comes from experience. TP allows you to see and anticipate what you ever encountered before. I wasn't born yesterday, ya know.
Originally posted by jinzin
God t's like trying to keep a second grader to pay attention in class.
Let's review the train of thought here.
You THINK that Elektra's TP doesn't play a factor into their fight because it has nothing to do with her kicking and punching/physicality.
Don't insult my intelligence by telling me TP is apart her ability to think now. Because you keep trying to say that fighting is more about the mind than physical attributes. And that is not all true. As time passes, fatigue sets in, and your stamina and physical condition becomes more of a factor. And just for the record, Elektra isn't smarter than Batman. And TP is just a "weapon" to use if she needs to gain an advantage. Her fighting instincts are all that is needed to fight Batman.
Originally posted by jinzin
You're fully delusional if you think Batman has better fighting skills. And that's not a fact it's your fanboy delusion anyways.
No, it is your inability to face facts. Elektra is not more skilled than Batman. Post scans of her showing to have more skills and technique then. All I get is talk, about how she is a better MA than Batman and she can't even handle Bullseye by herself. Bats has a lot more fighting techniques, skills, intelligence, and determination compared to Bullseye. She's just not capable of beating Batman.
Originally posted by thadarknite84
TP is not like instincts at all. Instincts comes from experience. TP allows you to see and anticipate what you ever encountered before. I wasn't born yesterday, ya know.
In context of discussion, and how Elektra GAINED her TP it very much IS like the instinct of a fighter. It didctates her reactions and actions like instints do.
Could've fooled me.
Originally posted by thadarknite84
Don't insult my intelligence by telling me TP is apart her ability to think now. Because you keep trying to say that fighting is more about the mind than physical attributes. And that is not all true. As time passes, fatigue sets in, and your stamina and physical condition becomes more of a factor. And just for the record, Elektra isn't smarter than Batman. And TP is just a "weapon" to use if she needs to gain an advantage. Her fighting instincts are all that is needed to fight Batman.
I never sad anything about TP being a part of her ability to think, I would expect that her brain and the electrical synapses firing of inside of it would have more to do with that. And I was insulting your intelligence based on your inability to follow coherent trains of thought.
But it IS a part of how she'll interpret a fight and react to it.
It is true. Even if your tired it's willpower that can keep you in a fight when you're body's screaming at you to stop.
Stamina's nice but what is it without the will to use it?
Kicking and Punching doesn't mean anything without the knowledge to use them correctly against somone who does.
As stated before, physicality becomes a clinching factor if things like misdirection, willpower, and adaptability don't come into play.
Hell the fact that those kinds of things DO come into play is reason why Batman's able to take on FAR physically superior opponents and win/live... 😬
To argue against that, is to argue against the very premise for Batman's better feats against Super and Meta-humans.
Originally posted by thadarknite84
No, it is your inability to face facts.
Yup it's me with the inability to face facts.
Originally posted by thadarknite84
Elektra is not more skilled than Batman. Post scans of her showing to have more skills and technique then. All I get is talk, about how she is a better MA than Batman and she can't even handle Bullseye by herself. Bats has a lot more fighting techniques, skills, intelligence, and determination compared to Bullseye. She's just not capable of beating Batman.
Pfffttt. Bullseye? He killed her before her rebirth or retraining. After that? She's three shotted him. 😐
The fight in DD.. CIS.. notice how Bullseye gets beat by DD or by Elektra but is able to take both in an arc that details how DD beat him to a pulp and shattered his spine by himself already? Yeah it was a CIS fight.
Originally posted by jinzin
I have little choice when you're trying to compare dodging one bullet or one set of lasers as a comparable speed feat to blocking automatic gunfire which is more suitable an example of fighting speed anyways... 😬
The thing about dodging Superman’s heat vision is this; not only would he have to dodge the initial beam (which is light speed) but you have to take into consideration the fact that Superman’s reflexes and reaction speeds are superhuman. In other words, Batman not only dodged Superman’s heat vision, but he also dodged Superman’s line of site, which makes the feat all the more impressive. Plus, it was also a sneak attack, which makes it even more impressive.
Also…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDBUUXMRg_M
I guess Haru from Beverly Hills Ninja would be able to out speed Batman as well, according to your logic. And yes… I went there. 🙂
Elektra isn’t too fast for Batman. End of story. Saying shit like “she’ll” be a blur to him” is downright ridiculous.
Originally posted by jinzin
And here you say that Batman hasn't been put into the situation as if you think he could, are you honestly trying to argue that the only reason he doesn't do this type of feat is because he doesn't want to?
Do I need to start nitpicking every example of Batman getting shot or having to dodge around gunfire when blocking through it and closing in on the target would have been much more effecient?
Why not? When he can dodge bullets after they’ve been fired from point blank range, speed blitz other characters, spar with Wonder Woman, help Flash shake a super speedster…
http://img356.imageshack.us/my.php?image=asdfwi5.jpg
Etc. etc. Nobody in their right mind would think Elektra is too fast for Batman to defeat.
Also, what’s he going to “block” bullets with? His hand? Nitpick away, if you feel like it. Bottom line is this: they both have comparable speed feats, but the difference here is that you’re hanging on to one feat for her while I have demonstrated many (which again, you’ve ignored) that in some cases could be considered more impressive.
Originally posted by jinzin
She very well might seeing as she's done so to three high tier street levels now.
crylaugh
Good lord. You actually believe that, don’t you?
Here’s a guy (Zeiss) I would say is easily comparable to Elektra…
Background info on Zeiss: he had his speed and eyesight enhanced enabling him to see the world in slow motion with increased reflexes far greater than the average human.
http://img240.imageshack.us/my.php?image=asdfbd6.jpg
http://img142.imageshack.us/my.php?image=asdfsu5.jpg
Studying Batman's skill extensively by recording him fighting, he was able to mimic Batman's skills re-using them against him.
http://img403.imageshack.us/my.php?image=asdfzh3.jpg
However, bitch still got owned by Batman. 😬
http://img450.imageshack.us/my.php?image=numriser00128un.jpg
Originally posted by jinzin
When you're posting things like Batman dodging one laser and calling that a comparable feat of speed to blocking a machine gun, when you whip out hawkgirl like she's comparable to Elektra, when you inadvertently compare thugs to the Punisher... well..
Yeah, except I haven’t only posted those as evidence. You’re splitting hairs here because these are the only ones you’ve chosen to focus on.
Hawkgirl is superior to Elektra in every single way save fighting skills. However, she herself is warrior trained and exceptionally skilled to the point where it wouldn’t matter in a fight.
And “inadvertently” would imply that I compared those feats of speed by accident. What Batman did in that situation is blatantly more impressive. Taking three guys’ guns in one swoop > stealing one guy’s. Also, if you weren’t blinded by your bias, you’d see how the Kyle feat is more impressive as well.
Originally posted by jinzin
A bunch of pics in which Batman dodges one bullet or a group of bullets is not the same as BLOCKING THEM.
No, it isn’t. However, Batman has good enough reflexes and reaction speeds to keep up with characters that are WAY faster than any bullet. LULZ OH NOES!!!1 I guess Batman is faster than Elektra. 🙂
Let me ask you this... when has Elektra ever fought someone with super speed? Bats does it all the time.
Originally posted by jinzin
Being able to beat someone in a nonfight? Doesn't mean anything here.
How many times have I had to address this trivial point which you seem to be clinging to?
Originally posted by jinzin
Being able to take down bricks? Isn't the same as taking down a skilled MA.
Straw man much?
It demonstrates striking power, which Batman is superior to Elektra in.
Originally posted by jinzin
But you keep ignoring that.
It’s pretty hypocritical for you to say I’m ignoring information when you’re ignoring nearly every feat I posted on page 4 and only focusing on the little shit.
Here’s the big picture for ya… Batman>Elektra. 🙂
Originally posted by jinzin
In your opinion. But her putting the boots to Apocalypse constructs says different.
Awesome.
Because everyone knows her defeating stone constructs means she hits harder than Batman, who coincidentally fights guys with “invulnerability” on a regular basis. 🙂
Originally posted by jinzin
So what? A bajillion years of training is not indicative of skill level and you know that.
But it doesn’t hurt things. Oh, and… Wonder Woman. That’s all that needs to be said here.
Originally posted by jinzin
Look at Thor vs. Cap, Cap's been able to take him down because he's the better of the two.
Yeah, and Hawkgirl actually shows use of skills when she fights. Thor has never really impressed me with his brawling style.
Originally posted by jinzin
Apocalypse vs. Cable, Cable had an advantage inh2h despite millenia's worth of experience.
Um… Apocalypse?
There’s a huge difference between “fighting and training” for thousands of years and “existing” for thousands of years.
Certainly you should know that.
Originally posted by jinzin
Wolverine vs Azreal who's been around since the before the birth of the world, Ba-al a thousands year old demon. Neither one had the skill level to match Logans....
See above. Also, didn’t Ogun share his “thousands of years” worth of experience with Logan?
Originally posted by jinzin
Does that mean that Logan, Cap, or Cable are a shoe in to beat Elektra in h2h? I dun think sooooo.
Cable, no. However, I’d give the nod to both Captain America and Wolverine against Elektra.
Originally posted by jinzin
getting desperate much?
Not at all. I was simply making a rather accurate observation about your ignorance of Hawkgirl.
Originally posted by jinzin
Wait wait wait.... so you're arguing that Batman > human reflexes but Castle = human reflexes?
Once again, you’re distracted away from the point. Castle isn’t superhuman. He doesn’t have the training Bats has that would put him on his level.
Kyle has some amazing reflexes feats too, but obviously he’s no Batman.
Originally posted by jinzin
Yeah I guess noncholantly stopping a Captain America shield throw stands for nothing.
Scan? I’d love to see the context behind this.
The only straight up “fight” I’ve seen these two have was when Cap had a “degenerative disease” and no shield throw took place.
Originally posted by jinzin
Uh no it doesn't..Wolverine's speedblitzed an entire platoon of men disarming them at the same time; He can't however do that to Punisher nor to Elektra and neither could Batman.
Any showing where Wolverine doesn’t just completely own the shit out of Frank is jobbing and/or PIS, imo.
Originally posted by jinzin
For a guy who just argued that Punisher's= to regular human but Batman isn't, I'll leave the double standards in yer neck o de woods. 😉
I love the hypocrisy of this. You’re arguing for a character that has inferior feats to win this fight.
Originally posted by jinzin
KK was amnesic and STILL landed three blows before Batman could land one. By the end of the fight Batman's suit as tore up as hell, had a hernia, and lost his utility belt...All this and KK wasn't even trying.
THEN, you got Black lightning coming in to save Bruces ass.... It was hardly a "stalemate"...
Lulz.
Not even the instance I was referring to. Further proof of you ignoring the scans I posted. 🙂
But just to play semantics, Batman landed the first blow in the fight you're talking about.
Originally posted by jinzin
Cass has also had him coughing up his own blood.
Yeah… in the fight where he was basically one-arming it the entire time. He also landed a killing blow on her that was “modified” not to be lethal.
Batman>>Batgirl
Originally posted by jinzin
What when DD wasn't in the way?
In other words, when he was soloing Elektra and Daredevil. He made her look like a complete tool in that encounter.
Originally posted by jinzin
Once... when he killed her... C'mon man
>>>
When he… killed her. Hmmm…
Originally posted by batdude123holy jeebuz if you truly believe that not to be PIS and rather batman's capabilities, you gotta be the biggest batman fanboy this side of the universe (this coming from a batman fan) 😱
The thing about dodging Superman’s heat vision is this; not only would he have to dodge the initial beam (which is light speed) but you have to take into consideration the fact that Superman’s reflexes and reaction speeds are superhuman. In other words, Batman not only dodged Superman’s heat vision, but he also dodged Superman’s line of site, which makes the feat all the more impressive. Plus, it was also a sneak attack, which makes it even more impressive.
Originally posted by batdude123
The thing about dodging Superman’s heat vision is this; not only would he have to dodge the initial beam (which is light speed) but you have to take into consideration the fact that Superman’s reflexes and reaction speeds are superhuman. In other words, Batman not only dodged Superman’s heat vision, but he also dodged Superman’s line of site, which makes the feat all the more impressive. Plus, it was also a sneak attack, which makes it even more impressive.
"Makes him slow"
it isn't "more impressive".. All it is, is another generic example of a street level dodging a lazer. Everyone from Moonknight to Namor have done that. It isn't THAT impressive.
Robin's dodged heat vision too.. So what? That doesn't mean that Robin's near the same level of Elektra in sheer speed.. which is absolutely ridiculous if you honestly believe he is.
Originally posted by batdude123
Also…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDBUUXMRg_M
I guess Haru from Beverly Hills Ninja would be able to out speed Batman as well, according to your logic. And yes… I went there. 🙂
Elektra isn’t too fast for Batman. End of story. Saying shit like “she’ll” be a blur to him” is downright ridiculous.
Movie Elektra would shit-stomp Movie Batman, and of them, including Adam West and Begins versions. She clearly superhuman to their human and even more skilled than any of them aside from MAYBE Begins. Does any of that matter one peice here? No... The REAL end of the story is that until Batman starts pulling off the same feats of Speed as Elektra, he IS going to be considered slower...
Originally posted by batdude123
Why not? When he can dodge bullets after they’ve been fired from point blank range, speed blitz other characters, spar with Wonder Woman, help Flash shake a super speedster…
http://img356.imageshack.us/my.php?image=asdfwi5.jpg
Etc. etc. Nobody in their right mind would think Elektra is too fast for Batman to defeat.
Because dodging bullets isn't the sme as deflecting them. We've already been over this. Wonder Woman holds back, he hasn't blitzd a skilled "peak human".
And...
Oh wow, using crossovers as evidence now? In that case Batman couldn't even take down Daredevil no way he takes down Elektra.
😂 I'm not sure that you're exactly the best representative of what someone in their right mind should think when you're trying to represent Batman as being faster than an unhindered Superman's sense of perception.
hell, even Master Bruce thought that was ludicrous.
Originally posted by batdude123
Also, what’s he going to “block” bullets with? His hand?
Originally posted by batdude123Because all the feats you've presented are generic feats that put Batman into a specific class of common street level speed. Elektra's put her above that class by a healthy margin. As I said, when you've got Batman deflecting automatic gunfire, and moving faster than inhuman eyes can detect underwater.. Then you can come tell me about how Batman might be "as fast."
Nitpick away, if you feel like it. Bottom line is this: they both have comparable speed feats, but the difference here is that you’re hanging on to one feat for her while I have demonstrated many (which again, you’ve ignored) that in some cases could be considered more impressive.
Scans of bullet dodging and laser dodging just don't cut it I'm affraid.
Originally posted by batdude123
crylaugh
Good lord. You actually believe that, don’t you?
Here’s a guy (Zeiss) I would say is easily comparable to Elektra…
Background info on Zeiss: he had his speed and eyesight enhanced enabling him to see the world in slow motion with increased reflexes far greater than the average human.
http://img240.imageshack.us/my.php?image=asdfbd6.jpg
http://img142.imageshack.us/my.php?image=asdfsu5.jpg
Studying Batman's skill extensively by recording him fighting, he was able to mimic Batman's skills re-using them against him.
http://img403.imageshack.us/my.php?image=asdfzh3.jpg
However, ***** still got owned by Batman. 😬
http://img450.imageshack.us/my.php?image=numriser00128un.jpg
Originally posted by batdude123
Yeah, except I haven’t only posted those as evidence. You’re splitting hairs here because these are the only ones you’ve chosen to focus on.
Hawkgirl is superior to Elektra in every single way save fighting skills. However, she herself is warrior trained and exceptionally skilled to the point where it wouldn’t matter in a fight.
And “inadvertently” would imply that I compared those feats of speed by accident. What Batman did in that situation is blatantly more impressive. Taking three guys’ guns in one swoop > stealing one guy’s. Also, if you weren’t blinded by your bias, you’d see how the Kyle feat is more impressive as well.
Not really.. Or at all actually. I'm just using those examples because they're the most clear cut examples of a Bat-fans inability to make accurate comparisons in order to prove a point.
Hawkgirl is also not as fast in her hand movements as Elektra. She's clearly not as capible in terms of TP either so I'm not sure what the hell you're smoking to come to that conclusion but you should really share some.
So then you compared a bunch of hired thugs to Punisher on purpose? So you even realize for one moment how utterly retarded that is?
Sorry but taking guns from a bunch of thugs/clowns isn't the same as blitzing a "peak human". It just isn't even close really.
Kyle was standing there talking to Bats when Batman did that, there was no expectation to confrontation... When there was what happened? Oh that's right Kyle floored Batman with a punch to the face.. So much for his super duper dodging heat vision at a whim speed eh?
Originally posted by batdude123He does so due to lack of skill, CIS, prep, weapons, or other plot devices. 😬
No, it isn’t. However, Batman has good enough reflexes and reaction speeds to keep up with characters that are WAY faster than any bullet. LULZ OH NOES!!!1 I guess Batman is faster than Elektra.
Originally posted by batdude123
Let me ask you this... when has Elektra ever fought someone with super speed? Bats does it all the time.
Originally posted by batdude123Dunno. How many times are you gonna bring up nonfights as an example of what a character is capible of on the forums?
How many times have I had to address this trivial point which you seem to be clinging to?
Originally posted by batdude123Lol well I can see that you do, since that precisely what you're doing when you bring up examples like Grundy in comparison to Elektra.
Straw man much?
It demonstrates striking power, which Batman is superior to Elektra in.
Oh nice backpeddling... Well if you believe that he's superior to Elektra in striking power, I suppose that's your perogative. But Elektra has consistently taken down characters with 1 or 2 hits that DD struggles to put down in entire issues worth of fighting. She punches through armor that stands up to bullets. And regularly punches her arm through people she's fighting...
I'd say Batman's stronger and has better striking power as per your evidence. But is it enough to make a difference in a fight?
When Elektra's standing up to multiple blows from Gorgon, shrugging off being thrown into a car by Luke Cage, ignoring SS's blows, and stoping bullets with her bare hand all while NOT wearing armor... I don't think so.
