Originally posted by Kinkin
That's impressive but that wont help him survive when hes being messed up by the claws or beheaded or whatever, otherwise I would say Herc wins but hes got Deadpool distracting him.
As already stated, Deadpool was hiding behind Captain America for protection from Hercules. Wolverine would be on his own and would be owned. 😉
Wolverine couldn't decapitate a man-god like Hercules.
This should be here...
Originally posted by jinzin
[B]=======
Hercules
=======
Herc and Logan have their first scuffle in a barfight (Wolverine hits Herc hard enough with a table to floor him):
1. http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/6415/herculesfirstfight1el4.jpg
2. http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/1592/herculesfirstfight2xq2.jpg
3. http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/6026/herculesfirstfight3jq6.jpg
4. http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/9078/herculesfirstfight4su9.jpg
5. http://img124.imageshack.us/img124/152/231fz0.jpgIn their second fight during Contest of Champions, Logan takes Herc out:
1. http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/5457/secondfighthd4.jpg [/B]
And there's an instance when Herc hides behind Cap's shield from Logan's claws... someone should post that scan.
Originally posted by The Scribe
As already stated, Deadpool was hiding behind Captain America for protection from Hercules. Wolverine would be on his own and would be owned. 😉Wolverine couldn't decapitate a man-god like Hercules.
you realize that dp wasnt using lethal force right?
also saying logan cant decapitate him doesnt make it so. since logan has a long history of doing that to his enemies and has threaten many bricks in the past while positioning himself to do just that and guess what everyone has backed down.
blob
roughhouse
hulk
StiltmanFTW: Former battle is a non-fight. Latter battle is an off-panel fight that involves mortal Hercules when he was depowered following a storyline set shortly after Bloodties. Don't remember when exactly. But it was well before Contest of Champions II. Hercules didn't regain his immortality and full powers back until the Ares mini in 2006 IIRC. I don't recall Hercules hiding from Wolverine.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
StiltmanFTW: Former battle is a non-fight. Latter battle is an off-panel fight that involves mortal Hercules when he was depowered following a storyline set shortly after Bloodties. Don't remember when exactly. But it was well before Contest of Champions II. Hercules didn't regain his immortality and full powers back until the Ares mini in 2006 IIRC. I don't recall Hercules hiding from Wolverine.
OK, thanks for clearing that up. However, it's not like Logan was at his prime, either. He was adamantiumless.
He shielded himself from Wolverine's attack. His claws weren't drawn IIRC (artist's mistake), but there was that "SLASH" sound...
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Srankmissingnin: You started out by basically just echoing the rationale I already discussed when it comes to speed feats that involve punking a speedster. In fact, I specifically discussed that when I first posted the original list of feats. Instead of recognizing it and inverting it back onto Wolverine's own catalogue of ambiguous speedster punking feats to avoid a drawn out, pointless back-and-forth, you continue to hide behind double-standards and lowball Thor's punking of speedsters and highball Wolverine's.
If you agreed with with my rationale than why would you post a list of feats you don't think have any significance in terms of combat speed in an attempt to prove Thor is faster than someone? I didn't address those scans in the first place because there wasn't anything there to address... and now that I have addressed them(after you specifically asked me too), you are upset that I've implemented you system of bias double standards?
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Not just that, you ignore that Thor's done it more often and done it to actual superspeedsters.
I've already addressed this. None of those examples - save for him grabbing Hermes leg while he was flying - were speed feats.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
As for Speed Demon, Logan admitting that he can only tag him by figuring out where he will be next? Nuff said.
Except for we have a visual to go by as well as the narration, and the visual shows us Wolverine actually keeping pace with Speed Demon's blurred after imagine.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Seriously, nuff said about that. Unlike you, I don't rely on punking speedsters or superspeedsters to prove Thor's combat superspeed or superspeed reflexes alone.
No offence, but speedster tagging has been a much more crucial part of your argument than mine... I mean... I only brought it up in up once... in my last post... because you asked me too... after you cited you examples of speedster "punking" (you use that term very loosely by the way), several times. I mean, you are the one who specifically asked for a scan of Wolverine doing the like, so I posted one, I didn't even address that patch of scans the first time around because frankly there was nothing that needed to be addressed.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
First, fix your god damn links. Second, bullcrap! He's already lunging at him with his claws before the bullet is discharged! In fact, you can't even tell whether he was already in the process of lunging before he started pulling the trigger! What the hell kind of bs is this? Even if you assume that Wolverine only started lunging after the crippled old man started depressing the trigger, a bullet only discharges when you fully depress the trigger, not when you start pulling on the trigger! Do you not understand this concept? This is especially important when you're dealing with a crippled man in a wheelchair because you can't possibly measure how quickly he would actually depress the trigger fully! Absolute garbage.
At this point in the thread, you've seen the scans and the actually build up too it that was posted by Stiltman, you know he wasn't in a wheel chair, and you understand the situation. You shouldn't need it to be explained to you, but I guess I will anyway. The trigger has already been pulled before Wolverine started moving. Look at the panel layout. Do you see the initial panel with the close up of the trigger finger? Do you see the sound effect near the trigger? That sound effect means the trigger has been squeezed already. Do you see how the hammer is already cocked back? This also indicates that the trigger has been pulled. Now, perhaps it would be more accurate to say that Wolverine moves after the trigger is pulled by before the hammer drops, and impedes the barrel of a gun, but that just seems like semantics.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Are you kidding me?! Are you going to sit there and tell me that Wolverine interrupting him before he can discharge a second bullet is vastly superior? We have absolutely no way to measure just how quickly that mook would have squeezed off another shot. No possible way. We don't even know if he tried squeezing off another shot! Get that shite outta here.
Seriously? That is a sad attempt to try and discredit this feat. Wolverine more than twenty feat away from the shooter, a bullet grazes his cheek, and in the next panel Wolverine has cut the mans hand off. That is a legitimate speed blitzed, he was more than twenty feet away from the guy and practically teleported over to him. I'm not sure why you need it explained to you, but I have the feeling that you have no feats to counter it so your choice of defence is to contrary. Bravo?
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Oh. My. God. Are you once again, assuming without any way to measure how quickly the teleportation is completed after Bishop pressing the button, that it is somehow instantaneous? Take the crap, leave it in the toilet where it belongs.
There is no indication, based on all previous examples of teleportation and ones after that fact, that Bishops teleportaion is anything other than instantaneous (relatively speaking anyway). It doesn't have a cast time, it doesn't need to wait for a dial up connection to connect to the Internet, it doesn't have to wait for him to spin up his ftl drives, and it doesn't have to wait for Bishop to hit speeds of 88 miles per hour.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Seeing the boy, then flying out of the sky, landing on the ground, slamming Mjolnir down to send a shockwave across a city to precisely make a truck leap over a child without hurting anybody else.... all in 1.2 seconds is slow? Utter bullcrap. You're being blatantly obtuse because you know you've got nothing. By focusing on the 1.2 seconds aspect while ignoring the distances involved and reaction times involved you would actually go so far and suggest a real human can do that? Simply. Pathetic. Logic.
Yes he smashed into the ground in made a shock wave, and sent a shock wave off in a general direction, but it isn't a speed feat. He saw a boy, he hit the ground. Anyone could do it, what anyone can't do is create a rippling shock wave, because that feat is a strength feat my friend. I know it must be confusing to you since they've provided a time frame, so now you are thinking "wow a frame of reference for his speed, I guess this must be a speed feat!!!" but sadly it's just not impressive for any attribute other than strength.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Not even close. Considering Wolverine was already in position being right next to the wall and right next to where Nightcrawler is falling and you can't measure how high up Nightcrawler started falling from nor when Wolverine saw that Nightcrawler was falling that isn't close at all.
Actually I can measure how up it was because unlike you I know what happened before the scan and I don't base my opinions on a single panel without any understanding of the context. I know how high up Nightcrawler was, because we saw his perch and how it's location related to Logan in the splash page before he fell. If you felt you didn't have enough information to form an accurate opinion you should have either said nothing, or looked up the feet in the comic to see what actually happened. Regardless of that, Nightcrawler was falling 15-20 feet, he was already falling before Wolverine started moving, Wolverine cut a 2.5 foot by 6.5 foot, hunk of metal out of the wall, he then moved to Nightcrawlers location and caught him. That's an insane speed feat. Much, more impressive than Thor hitting the ground with his hammer.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Comfortable writing it off, HA. It's the only desperate move you could possibly resort to. Considering that Thor deals with superspeedsters and has other feats to support this, you "writing off speed feats" only serves to expose just how outclassed you are when it comes to posting feats.
Wait, I thought you said you weren't relying on Thor punking speedsters and it wasn't a large part of your argument? Because now you are attempting to use those feats - which prove nothing by the way and barely classify as feats base on their sheer lack of impressiveness - in order to justify this one? I'm sorry to say that ploy isn't going to work. You are going to have to come up with something else.
Once again, it is a feat that is out of line with ALL of Thor's other feats. Nothing Thor has done aside from that suggests or hints that he is capable of replicating such a feat. The implication that your examples of Thor vs. Speedsters somehow reinforces the validity of that feat is wrong. Being as it is a single feat that is significantly out of touch with all other examples of Thor's speed, I feel more than comfortable writing it of as PIS.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Don't even try to confuse other people who may assume that microsecond-timing is like split-second timing. Microseconds are millionths of a second. Nanoseconds are billionths of a second. Even batting away bullets doesn't require you to move your limbs within millionths of a second. And Wolverine has never even batted away bullets, like say Daredevil. Your pathetic gun barrel feat, even if it weren't already utterly debunked wouldn't require microsecond speeds.
Well I haven't done the math to be certain. But if a bullet moves at 1000 meters per second, and Wolverine is able to block the end of the barrel after the trigger is pulled but before the bullet can travel 2-3 inches out of the barrel, that seems pretty fast to me.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Telepathy moves FTL. It is, for all intents and purposes, instantaneous. You've obviously read enough X-Men and know that telepathy has connected Xavier and Lilandra across galaxies. So answer this, "How fast does telepathy move?" Answer: Faster than l___t."How fast do you think telepathic blasts move?" Logical answer: Well since it's telepathy, and the scan says it's instantaneous, it's probably as fast as telepathy, which is instanteous, which is faster than l___t.
Obviously, I can already imagine your disingenuous response. "So what if it's made of telepathy? And who cares that I don't have any evidence that telepathic blasts aren't instant like telepathy is? I'll just assume that telepathic blasts hold different properties than the telepathy it is made of and hope nobody notices! Wee!"
I assumed for the sake of argument that it is only travelling at light speed. Unless you have proof to suggest that a telepathic blast would manifest speeds different from regular telepathy, don't even try to equivocate.
So we are attempting to quantify the speed of telepathy? Well we're doing that, how about we figure out the speed of intuition? You're implication that Xavier and Lilandra's connection is common place is also very misleading. Xavier and Lilandra are soul mates, they've been said the be the missing pieces of one another. They're psychic connection isn't rule it is an exception to the rule, and it has more to do with love and the fact that they shared a merged consciousness than it does with telepathy, it's quasi-mystical in nature. It isn't common place and we have no notion of how it works, attempting to use this connection to quantify the speed of telepathy is absurd and only serves to make you look foolish.
Regardless of all this, the blast is a physically manifestation of telepathy. Even if there was any sort of concrete proof that telepathic communication moved FTL (and there isn't encase you haven't been paying attention), there is no indication that telepathic blasts operates under the same principles.
And perhaps you'd like to explain why blocking a laser beam isn't "remotely comparable," too firing an energy attack back at one?
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Ah yes. I remember you trying to pass this off as being superior to Midnighter kicking a fired tank shell out of mid-flight. You pasted the link incorrectly, which I've fixed. So yes, let's see who thinks riding a rocket is as impressive as catching a fired artillery-shell with your bare-hand.
😐
He grabbed it with his claws - this would require the same level of speed as catching it with your hands, or kicking it - he then proceeded to ride it. You don't think it's impressive? Not surprising, we already saw your sad attempt to discredit Wolverine's speed feats in how they relate to hitting a dart out of the air.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Arrows feat, first: He swiped with both arms in a single motion. Do you not understand the distinction? Guess not. So let me spell it out for you: swinging both of your arms simultaneously is distinct from swinging a mallet in one direction, then swinging it in another. The former involves two arms and one motion. The latter involves two arms and two motions. Simple enough for you now? One motion versus two separate motions? Look at the Thor scan again:Had Wolverine actually swung both of his arms in one direction, then swung them back in the opposite direction, and no arrows got through, the arrow feat might be on par. As it is, it completely fails to match it on every possible level. You had to have understood that. You're not stupid. You're just desperate that nobody would notice. That's being a troll. As for the pathetic carving up armor scans, I don't even have to bother. How you could possibly manage to try to pass that off as coming close to Thor using successive swings to bat away half a building's worth of flying debris so that none of it gets through... AND in the space of time it takes for a speedblitzing Gladiator to only advance a few feet? Utterly outrageous.
This of course is all operating under the assumption that both of Thor's swings where on a comparable level of speed as Wolverine's, which isn't the case. Thor's feat is limited by gravity. He took a swing and he knocked a portion of the building away, and when he takes a second swing a new portion of the debris has descended into his melee range. Gravity. Thor wasn't moving faster than gravity was pulling the building, and neither was Gladiator. The projectiles Wolverine cut out of the air where moving at a far, greater rate of speed than the falling building. Wolverine didn't swing twice? Maybe - but it's pretty clear that something happened in between panels, which makes that train of though unlikely - but he didn't have to swing twice, because Wolverine's one swing would require a far greater level of speed than Thor's two.
Didn't care to address the other two examples, eh?
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
In the end, you posted an absolute phail that was supposed to be your measured rebuttal. It only proved just how desperate you are and what lengths you'll go, to not admit you're wrong. You've thrown everything out there: double-standards, strained attenuation, even resorting to, "that clear, measurable speed feat doesn't count." And putting up scan links haphazardly without thinking about how easily I can rip them apart when you know I take the time to address each and every one? Did you try to think this through?One half of me is glad about how easy it was to seal this debate and prove you wrong. The other half of me is plain insulted that you stopped to such pathetic levels.
I think its cute that you actually think you've managed to tear a hole in my argument with your sad ass attempts at debating, I mean, you didn't manage to successfully discredit any of the feats - not for lack of trying - and you flat out ignore the rest. I guess that's really all I can expect considering what you are working with after all.
Originally posted by srankmissingninProgression in argumentative proof. You addressed those scans and focused only on those scans in your very first response to that list. Don't repaint the posts you made.
If you agreed with with my rationale than why would you post a list of feats you don't think have any significance in terms of combat speed in an attempt to prove Thor is faster than someone? I didn't address those scans in the first place because there wasn't anything there to address... and now that I have addressed them(after you specifically asked me too), you are upset that I've implemented you system of bias double standards?
Originally posted by srankmissingninhttp://img29.imageshack.us/img29/1883/wolverinen43p13.jpg
At this point in the thread, you've seen the scans and the actually build up too it that was posted by Stiltman, you know he wasn't in a wheel chair, and you understand the situation. You shouldn't need it to be explained to you, but I guess I will anyway. The trigger has already been pulled before Wolverine started moving.
Do you see how the scene cuts away from what Wolverine was doing between when Linus draws a gun on him and when it uses a close-up to frame his hand? You can't see what Wolverine is doing for three panels. You assume Wolverine stood still when it makes more sense that he was moving. There is absolutely nothing impressive about this pistol chamber feat at all. Captain America dodged a bullet after it was fired AND threw his shield at Winter Soldier. That's impressive. Beating Linus in a quick-draw contest when they're standing next to each other is decidely not.
Originally posted by srankmissingninhttp://img152.imageshack.us/img152/8499/xmenv2133p03gm1.jpg
Seriously? That is a sad attempt to try and discredit this feat. Wolverine more than twenty feat away from the shooter, a bullet grazes his cheek, and in the next panel Wolverine has cut the mans hand off.
Of course, there's no measurable way to figure out just how quickly he closed the gap between them. You assume he closed it superfast, but there's no evidence for it whatsoever other than relying on speed lines. Please.
Originally posted by srankmissingninhttp://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee113/wolverinerespectthread/Cable-016.jpg
There is no indication, based on all previous examples of teleportation and ones after that fact, that Bishops teleportaion is anything other than instantaneous (relatively speaking anyway). It doesn't have a cast time, it doesn't need to wait for a dial up connection to connect to the Internet, it doesn't have to wait for him to spin up his ftl drives, and it doesn't have to wait for Bishop to hit speeds of 88 miles per hour.
I'm not going to prove a negative. Prove his teleportation is instantaneous. As it is, you're using straw-man argumentation to fallaciously place the burden that correctly lies upon you onto me. That's not how it works in a debate over evidence. You're trying to use the scan as proof for another premise, that Logan's speed is superior. So prove that the necessary premise you rely on, that Bishop's teleportation is instant, is true before offering it as proof for another premise, that Wolverine's speed is superior.
Originally posted by srankmissingninGive me guesstimations of how many fractions of a second it took for Thor to fly out of the sky and land, swing his hammer down and then for the shockwave to travel across the entire city. You have 1.2 seconds total to alot to all of that.
Yes he smashed into the ground in made a shock wave, and sent a shock wave off in a general direction, but it isn't a speed feat. He saw a boy, he hit the ground. Anyone could do it, what anyone can't do is create a rippling shock wave, because that feat is a strength feat my friend.
Originally posted by srankmissingninNot at all, because we have no idea when Wolverine saw him starting to fall. We know Thor, who was flying around in the sky and across the city saw the kid exactly 1.2 seconds before his shockwave caused the truck to bounce up. Thor had to do everything and leave enough time for the shockwaves to travel across the city all in 1.2 seconds. We don't know when Wolverine saw him begin to fall and we do know that Wolverine was already right next to the wall and where Nightcrawler fell.
Actually I can measure how up it was because unlike you I know what happened before the scan and I don't base my opinions on a single panel without any understanding of the context. I know how high up Nightcrawler was, because we saw his perch and how it's location related to Logan in the splash page before he fell.
Originally posted by srankmissingninI wasn't relying on Thor punking superspeedsters alone. When you combine everything together, they complement and reinforce each other. If Thor didn't have a single microsecond or nanosecond feat, then punking superspeedsters could be seen as attenuated highballing. But when you have measurable combat superspeed feats, the attenuation is cured because you aren't relying on any one type of feat in isolation. And vice-versa. Get it through your head. It's called progression in argumentative proof. The only ploy that isn't going to work is your arbitrary dismissal of on-panel measurable feats that complement and reinforce his other superspeed feats. You can't on one hand say, "One feat on it's own is PIS. So that one is PIS, and so is that other one. And well, now he's only got the Hermes feat. But since that's just one feat now because I already arbitrarily dismissed everything else, punking Hermes doesn't count to prove Thor's speed is superior to Wolverine." Have you not stopped to consider how obviously falacious such argumentation is? You're smarter than that. You know exactly what it is you're trying to pull. Don't troll.
Wait, I thought you said you weren't relying on Thor punking speedsters and it wasn't a large part of your argument? Because now you are attempting to use those feats - which prove nothing by the way and barely classify as feats base on their sheer lack of impressiveness - in order to justify this one? I'm sorry to say that ploy isn't going to work. You are going to have to come up with something else
Originally posted by srankmissingninYou have to fully depress the trigger for the bullet to begin traveling through the barrel. Wolverine was already moving BEFORE the trigger was fully depressed. FFS, you know this. STOP TROLLING.
Well I haven't done the math to be certain. But if a bullet moves at 1000 meters per second, and Wolverine is able to block the end of the barrel after the trigger is pulled but before the bullet can travel 2-3 inches out of the barrel, that seems pretty fast to me.
Originally posted by srankmissingninWhat the hell else are you supposed to quantify it with?! It's telepathy! Telepathy is instantaneous. The scan even said Phoenix's telepathic blast was instantaneous! You have no proof to rebut the logical presumption that a telepathic blast is instanteous like telepathy. Nor that the telepathic blast in the scan wasn't instantaneous as it is described on-panel.
So we are attempting to quantify the speed of telepathy?
Originally posted by srankmissingninDon't be a troll. Everyone and their mother has blocked bullets and lasers. Because most of the time people telegraph that they're about to fire and you react to that before the shots are fired. Thor's blocked lasers and heat vision and bullets and god knows what else like it's his day job. Unless you can prove someone shot the beam or projectile BEFORE the character is already in position to evade or block, then no: AIM DODGING OR AIM BLOCKING ISN'T THE SAME. This premise in comics is so basic that I shouldn't have to explain it to you. You damn well know that's why aim blocking lasers isn't remotely comparable to actually blocking lasers that have already been shot. So stop intentionally trolling. That is why the Phoenix feat is distinct, because we see Thor's arms are not in position to block when the blast is already fired and travelling towards him. He has to move his arms fast enough AFTER it's fired to block it.
And perhaps you'd like to explain why blocking a laser beam isn't "remotely comparable," too firing an energy attack back at one?
Originally posted by srankmissingninOh FFS. Prove the rocket was travelling faster than an artillery shell. The thing isn't an ICBM in transatlantic flight. It's not creating sonic booms. Some rockets travel at a rate of 50 mph. Some tank and artillery shells travel at a rate of 4,000 mph. That's because rockets have continued propulsion whereas tank and artillery shells' only propulsion is provided from the muzzle velocity. Think about how many war clips you've seen on CNN. Have you ever tracked a tank or artillery shell with your eyes? I'll bet you never have. Have you ever tracked a fired rocket with propulsion with your eyes? I'll bet you have. Because that's what Jubilee, Mojo and Wolverine are doing while yelling and pontificating with each other. It's your scan. So prove the rocket is being propelled at speeds that exceed or at least match tank/artillery shells.
He grabbed it with his claws - this would require the same level of speed as catching it with your hands, or kicking it - he then proceeded to ride it. You don't think it's impressive? Not surprising, we already saw your sad attempt to discredit Wolverine's speed feats in how they relate to hitting a dart out of the air.
Originally posted by srankmissingninfacepalm Gladiator threw the building at him, he didn't drop the building at him. Not only that, Gladiator is flying horizontally into him with a speedblitz. Gladiator isn't falling onto Thor:
This of course is all operating under the assumption that both of Thor's swings where on a comparable level of speed as Wolverine's, which isn't the case. Thor's feat is limited by gravity. He took a swing and he knocked a portion of the building away, and when he takes a second swing a new portion of the debris has descended into his melee range. Gravity. Thor wasn't moving faster than gravity was pulling the building, and neither was Gladiator.
And he didn't throw successive pieces at him. He threw the damn thing all at once. What don't you get? Are you blind? Not only does Thor use successive swings to knock away the building debris so nothing penetrates, he swings it twice in the space of time where Gladiator has only advanced in his speedblitz by ten feet at most. Even if you lowball for the sake of argument and assume Gladiator is only speedblitzing at the speed of sound (1116 ft/s), then for Thor to swing twice by the time Gladiator moves 10 ft, he'd only have .009 seconds to do so. And for each swing, .0045 seconds for each swing on average. That's thousandths of a second to move your arms in full swinging motions to one side and then to the opposite side. Stop being purposefully dense. Gladiator falling onto Thor with gravity... gimme a break!
Originally posted by srankmissingninQuoted for teh phail. Please, once you admit how ridiculous your logic is and own up to it, recognize that Thor's successively swatting away building debris feat is FAR superior to Wolverine one-swipe arrow swat. After that, recognize that Thor already has a superior one-swipe arrow swatting feat to Wolverine's already. Here, Thor swipes arrows away that are only a few feet from his head, and he was turned around:
The projectiles Wolverine cut out of the air where moving at a far, greater rate of speed than the falling building. Wolverine didn't swing twice? Maybe - but it's pretty clear that something happened in between panels, which makes that train of though unlikely - but he didn't have to swing twice, because Wolverine's one swing would require a far greater level of speed than Thor's two.
Every speed feat of Wolverine's has been easily matched by Thor's. I've gone past that and have shown greater combat speed and reflex speed feats than you have for Wolverine. I've even showed Thor's capacity for combat superspeed and reflex superspeed. No amount of false misrepresentation, whining about how Thor's feats don't count or blowing Wolvie's feats all out of proportion changes that. Nuff said.
