Originally posted by Mindship
I think the latter more likely, as I see Thor fighting harder to save someone he cares for than for himself (though couldn't one say that about most superheroes?)
It's true, and that would apply to Norrin as well. I'm sure he'd fight much harder when he's defending Zenn'la or Nova, then when he's fighting some random dude who's attacking him.
Originally posted by quanchi112The presence of the Valkyrie -- even if a hallucination -- would seem to suggest more than just ruthlessness here. Something was not right. Even with genuine Warrior Madness (like when Thor was fighting Him), Thor did not start seeing babes in domme outfits.
Only in the fact that he would never be that merciless against BrB or the Surfer. It was him basically fighting ruthlessly against his friends.
Originally posted by MindshipWhy not? I do it all the time.
The presence of the Valkyrie -- even if a hallucination -- would seem to suggest more than just ruthlessness here. Something was not right. Even with genuine Warrior Madness (like when Thor was fighting Him), Thor did not start seeing babes in domme outfits.
Originally posted by MindshipIt didn't augment Thor's strength in any way in the literal sense. I have been over this with you already. It wasn't warrior's madness.
The presence of the Valkyrie -- even if a hallucination -- would seem to suggest more than just ruthlessness here. Something was not right. Even with genuine Warrior Madness (like when Thor was fighting Him), Thor did not start seeing babes in domme outfits.
Originally posted by quanchi112I'm not saying it was. I was simply making a comparison with warrior madness, ie, as profound as WM can be (citing Thor's fight with Him), Thor didn't hallucinate another presence, whereas whatever mental state he was in with Blood and Thunder was either profound enough to induce an hallucination, or there was a real entity inducing Thor's mental state. Either way, there was more than just ruthlessness on Thor's part, as evidenced by the presence of this "Valkyrie."
It didn't augment Thor's strength in any way in the literal sense. I have been over this with you already. It wasn't warrior's madness.
Originally posted by MindshipIt was a mental imbalance that caused him to be more savage. Again, it's not likely he will ever be as ruthless with the Surfer as he was in that storyline.
I'm not saying it was. I was simply making a comparison with warrior madness, ie, as profound as WM can be (citing Thor's fight with Him), Thor didn't hallucinate another presence, whereas whatever mental state he was in with Blood and Thunder was either profound enough to induce an hallucination, or there was a real entity inducing Thor's mental state. Either way, there was more than just ruthlessness on Thor's part, as evidenced by the presence of this "Valkyrie."
No, there wasn't. He was whacked out of his mind, but everything he did was under his own abilities refusing to give an inch.
Originally posted by Mindship
I'm not saying it was. I was simply making a comparison with warrior madness, ie, as profound as WM can be (citing Thor's fight with Him), Thor didn't hallucinate another presence, whereas whatever mental state he was in with Blood and Thunder was either profound enough to induce an hallucination, or there was a real entity inducing Thor's mental state. Either way, there was more than just ruthlessness on Thor's part, as evidenced by the presence of this "Valkyrie."
During larger parts of his insanity though, Valkyrie wasn't even present.
Originally posted by Kris Blaze
I was referring to Valkyrie, not Thor. Warlock could not affect Thor because of his warrior spirit or physiology or whatever, that's granted. Warlock even said so himself. He could not affect Valkyrie for a whole nother reason though, because she did not exist. She existed solely within Thor's mind. That's why he is so surprised later, when Thor gets a hold of the power gem and makes her real. BEFORE that, she does not have a soul, she exists ONLY in Thor's mind.http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e156/marvelkris/Thor%20comics/WarlockInfinity-23-03.jpg
"The woman is a mental construct"
I said what i said because technically she is asgardian who happens to be an aspect of Thor, this is why i replied that way..
Originally posted by quanchi112
No, this has already been explained to you. He was drawing inner strength and self belief as he thought like always he was righteous. He wasn't literally amping himself. She wasn't even real at this point.
Mine sway toward the Valkyria's incarnation; all that negative energy (anguish) boiling gathering up by Odin's manipulation over the years of Thors spirit, consciousness ++ Odins own magic.. He was tapping into this through Valkyrie, boosting him up.
Like what Mindship said, "could been narrated diff.". Why use that exact wording? Like say, "lets end this now, before he recuperate and curb stomp us". lol
Originally posted by Ambient
Well let me try to clear this up here.. # 464 She said to Thor that she and him are of the same soul, a sharing.. So technically she has a soul and I'm not disagreeing that wither she is an MC or not but that there is more to her, not just your norm hallucination.. Fact; she hold her own and fought against The goddess, She fought Thor, and Odin.. Not your norm MC, i tell yah..
You need to differentiate between pre and post mind-gem Valkyrie. We're discussing the effects Thor's madness had on his fight with Surfer and BRB. Thus Valkyrie's performance agaisnt Odin and Thor later on is irrelevant. The Goddess was also manipulating Thor mentally, her battle against Valkyrie was not physical. Valkyrie is -all- Thor and this is no different from telepathic defence or separate personalities that other people have.
What she said is irrelevant, Thor created her. When people imagine things and see people that do not exist, do you believe the people they imagine would admit to being fake? Of course not, that would only happen ONCE the one who is imagining them has been cured. An imaginary person can never admit to being fake, since the deluded or insane person are subconsciously in control. If Valkyrie admitted to being fake, Thor would be cured.
Though later, once Thor became in possession of the power gem, her personality seemed to take over.
Originally posted by AmbientNo, she wasn't. She didn't exist at all at this point. How can something that doesn't exist power you up? It's wishful thinking on Surfer's fans part imo.
Well let me try to clear this up here.. # 464 She said to Thor that she and him are of the same soul, a sharing.. So technically she has a soul and I'm not disagreeing that wither she is an MC or not but that there is more to her, not just your norm hallucination.. Fact; she hold her own and fought against The goddess, She fought Thor, and Odin.. Not your norm MC, i tell yah..I said what i said because technically she is asgardian who happens to be an aspect of Thor, this is why i replied that way..
Well we have our diff. way of interp.
Mine sway toward the Valkyria's incarnation; all that negative energy (anguish) boiling gathering up by Odin's manipulation over the years of Thors spirit, consciousness ++ Odins own magic.. He was tapping into this through Valkyrie, boosting him up.
Like what Mindship said, "could been narrated diff.". Why use that exact wording? Like say, "lets end this now, before he recuperate and curb stomp us". lol
Originally posted by Kris Blaze
We're discussing the effects Thor's madness had on his fight with Surfer and BRB. Thus Valkyrie's performance agaisnt Odin and Thor later on is irrelevant. The Goddess was also manipulating Thor mentally, her battle against Valkyrie was not physical. Valkyrie is -all- Thor and this is no different from telepathic defence or separate personalities that other people have.What she said is irrelevant, Thor created her. When people imagine things and see people that do not exist, do you believe the people they imagine would admit to being fake? Of course not, that would only happen ONCE the one who is imagining them has been cured. An imaginary person can never admit to being fake, since the deluded or insane person are subconsciously in control. If Valkyrie admitted to being fake, Thor would be cured.
Though later, once Thor became in possession of the power gem, her personality seemed to take over.
She still fought the goddess and Thor was in there with her breaking the fight up, explain that? Still it makes no diff. as it clearly stand there is more to her..
Cept for a fact that what she said is truth..
Originally posted by quanchi112
No, she wasn't. She didn't exist at all at this point. How can something that doesn't exist power you up? It's wishful thinking on Surfer's fans part imo.
Originally posted by Ambient
Why is it irrelevant? Whats the diff.? there are no gem present and she was back in her normal state in Thors mind...She still fought the goddess and Thor was in there with her breaking the fight up, explain that? Still it makes no diff. as it clearly stand there is more to her..
Cept for a fact that what she said is truth..
It is irrelevant because she wasn't REAL before Moondragon's interference. What is the difference? She became something completely different and was able to enter the real world. Before that she existed SOLELY in Thor's mind. This was stated SEVERAL times and anybody can see the transition between pre and post Moondragon interference.
Once Thor grabbed a hold of the Power Gem after that his insanity skyrocketed and things changed completely. These events are not applicable to the events that preceeded them.
Originally posted by Kris Blaze
It is irrelevant because she wasn't REAL before Moondragon's interference. What is the difference? She became something completely different and was able to enter the real world. Before that she existed SOLELY in Thor's mind. This was stated SEVERAL times and anybody can see the transition between pre and post Moondragon interference.Once Thor grabbed a hold of the Power Gem after that his insanity skyrocketed and things changed completely. These events are not applicable to the events that preceeded them.
There was never any indication that the power gem made a diff. in Thors insanity cept for an amp..
Originally posted by Ambient
I am referring to when they transported her back into Thors mind and when she fought Odin, She was basically back into her normal state..There was never any indication that the power gem made a diff. in Thors insanity cept for an amp..
I know what you are referring to and it has absolutely no bearing on Thor's fight with BRB and Surfer.
Then apparently you did not pay much attention when Thanos trapped him and they attempted to cure it. Thanos, the watch and a couple of others were nearly killed.
Originally posted by quanchi112Where does the 10x strength come from with actual warrior madness / beserker rage / whatever it's called (again, not saying this was WM in B&T)? Where does, eg, Banner's 900 pounds of actual physical mass come from or the Vision's increased density?
How can something that doesn't exist power you up?
Magic, hyperspace, plot device, etc. It's comics.
Originally posted by AmbientIt's you who aren't getting it. You are just wanting to believe it to offset Thor's domination of the Surfer.
Why is it irrelevant? Whats the diff.? there are no gem present and she was back in her normal state in Thors mind...She still fought the goddess and Thor was in there with her breaking the fight up, explain that? Still it makes no diff. as it clearly stand there is more to her..
Cept for a fact that what she said is truth..
Not getting it...
Originally posted by MindshipThat was explained while this wasn't warrior madness. The only amp het got was through the power gem.
Where does the 10x strength come from with actual warrior madness / beserker rage / whatever it's called (again, not saying this was WM in B&T)? Where does, eg, Banner's 900 pounds of actual physical mass come from or the Vision's increased density?Magic, hyperspace, plot device, etc. It's comics.
