Originally posted by dmills
Thor literally has every power that the surfer has and some that he doesn't. Thor can tap into cosmic sources of energy as well as mystic sources of energy. SS is outclassed by Thor IMO.
Originally posted by dmills
I've read most of the Starlin/Marz run and I don't recall the SS ever doing those things. I gotta call BS until you either post scans or give issue numbers.
It's not his style to directly affect the weather, but he did manipulate the Earth's jet streams in Avengers Annual #11, and Dr. Doom created and dispelled an electrical storm using Surfer's powers after he stole them the first time.
As for teleportation, he's really more of a flier because Marvel likes to show off his board but he's shown the ability to teleport both himself and others in the past...
http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/3493/fantasticfourv304615telpe3.jpg
http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/7996/ffannual05silversurfer1tl0.jpg
Originally posted by darthgoober There's a difference between kicking someone's ass in a fight and knocking them out with one shot when you're already on your last legs. If he never one shotted either of them before Bill's statement, then demonstrated something he was previously incapable of.
Did you see how the fight went between Beta Ray Bill and Thor the first two times? He was beaten twice in a brawl and knocked out. It’s not surprise that Thor took him down with one unknown energy attack (Also like I’ve said before. “Power > Strength. Thor implementing his exotic powerset was able to put these two down much easier than he did with his blows.). Relentless damage builds up. That’s evident by how Thor was eventually downed by Beta Ray Bill with a few blows to the back of the neck and head.
He never did anything he wasn’t capable off before. Even after the statement was made, Silver Surfer was able to hold his own against Thor for a time, without getting one shotted while having the lack of maneuverability his board could provide. Eventually after he started going all out Thor was able to down him in a blow. He downed him with a blow and he even momentarily knocked out Silver Surfer with a blow before that statement was made. Yet after the statement was made, Silver Surfer was still able to survive in a battle against Thor even while restraining himself for a time, until the point they both went out and the next time around he was actually knocked out for a lengthy time. It doesn’t indicate an amp, but simply demonstrates Thor’s superiority to both of them, in power when going all out, which is something that I agree with.
You act as if right after the statement Thor got some extremely obvious power boost of some sort which is far from the case. He seemed to have a constant power level until he received the gem which is nothing surprising. He didn’t go around one shotting them after that statement was made like you’re making it seem. He downed Beta Ray Bill, and eventually put down Silver Surfer after he was able to hold his own. He didn’t one shot Adam Warlock or Silver Surfer. Hell, even Beta Ray Bill received a beating twice until Thor so easily managed to put him down.
Originally posted by darthgoober Matter of opinion. I say that the fact that Thor was beaten damn near to unconscious before BRB's statement DOES indicate that he recieved an amp since I don't see a weakened Thor one shotting BRB and Surfer and then thrashing Surfer and Warlock together. And if you're already inclined to believe that Thor's more powerful than all three of them of course it's not going to suprise you. I happen to disagree though.
Thor’s energy attacks aren’t depended on how much damage he physically receives unless it’s the God Blast which relies on his Godly energies. He didn’t receive any amp. He one shotted Beta Ray Bill with an energy attack “after” beating his ass twice physically. As shown in later issues during that arc, if you’ve read it, as explained by Sif, the injuries he received from Thor were had built up and after so many beatings he was knocked out for so much longer the last time he was put down. That’s what happens in a battle which isn’t surprising Thor put him down easier than he did before.
By that logic, Beta Ray Bill received an amp in strength as well, as after getting his ass beat down twice he was able to down Thor with some well placed blows. That’s not the case. His efforts and all the fights Thor had during that arc eventually wore him down. I mean he didn’t put down the Silver Surfer any easier at all, after that statement. Norrin was even able to hold his own for a time while restraining himself in a physical brawl, but one they went all out, Thor downed him in a blow. The fight dragged on until the point Thor was able to knock him out in a blow. The knock out wasn’t exceptionally long, based on the amount of time, that seemed to past. Right after Warlock intervened, Silver Surfer eventually recovered.
Originally posted by darthgoober It was a generic blast, that's all. When Thor uses something uber, it's noted in the comic. Against Ego it was specifically mentioned that he was turning the elements on Ego against him(which makes perfect sense because Thor's the God of Thunder) and against that weakened Galactus he used his Godblast. When has Thor ever casually one shotted Surfer before?
True, Thor does love his theatrics, but this isn’t Thor in a normal state of mind. I highly doubt a generic blast was all that was, if it was able to so easily put down Beta Ray Bill, despite the fact that he was weakened after such a beating. If that was the case, he would had a much easier time trying to put down Adam Warlock and the others, especially with possession of the gem. Of course Thor can augment his generic blasts and make them extremely powerful.
Before the statement you so cling to was made, he downed the Silver Surfer with a casual blow and even momentarily knocked him out with a blow.
Originally posted by darthgoober I acknowledge he had an amp because he DID show things that he shouldn't be capable of. Or can you think of another instance of him taking down three guys like BRB, Surfer, and Warlock as he did in B&T? If he's never done anything like it before or since and he has instances of him preforming less impressively against the foes he fought, it's a pretty clear indication that it's beyond his standard abilities.
That’s because his never been in such a state of mind before against allies. He only unleashes his power when there is no other choice and even there it’s rare. We can see what a pissed off Thor can do and how much power he truly holds back.
A great example is Durok and when he annihilated him. Neither he or the Silver Surfer were capable off putting down the likes of Durok before, even after such a prolonged fight and Norrin was forced to battle field remove him. Yet Thor single handedly while weakened and fighting beings like an amped Loki, Fenris, Ulik with Mjolnir copies and who knows what else for days, he was able to drop Durok himself in a single attack. Did he have an amp there because he was capable of doing something he didn’t show in the past? How about Mangog and how he dropped him?
It’s pretty evident that Thor truly holds back a great deal of his power even when in severe danger. When pushed and having no other choice or when say crazed, the difference between him and other top tiers such as the Silver Surfer, or Beta Ray Bill is made clear.
Originally posted by darthgoober You're trying to extrapolate what Warlock meant without enough evidence to do so. You're also ignoring the fact that he was stated as being faster than he was in Warrior Madness. Warrior Madness is a physical amp and the fact that they came right out and said that one aspect of Thor's physical abilities was superior to than it is while in that amped state throws too much ambiguity on the showing. What you're saying definitely makes sense, but so does what I'm saying(that he was more dangerous because he was amped).
No I’m not. I’m not ignoring this, I thought I already addressed this, and we moved on? Like I said before, as stated his memory is subjugated to doubt and so on. At best you can say he received an amp in his speed which would be really, random for lack of better words. Warrior Madness increases one strength ten fold. One’s strength. It’s not a physical amp in general where something such as speed would be amped ten fold. There could be many arguments made, such as, was Adam Warlock superior physically as Him in terms of speed then he was during that period of time? If that’s the case (Is he? I’m not sure.)then his memory such as it is, is logical. Also we have to look at the fight he had with Thor before.
Did you read it? They trade blows for about 3 pages or so, get caught in a tight hand to hand fight, then Thor has had enough, downs Adam Warlock, charges through some boulders thrown with his “deadly mind power” (I always lol’d at that.), then continues, to give him a thorough pounding into submission. Reading through the fight in “Blood and Thunder” and yes Thor did seem a lot faster in that fight then he did with Him. It’s actually fairly obvious. Thor had some ridiculous speed feats. In one panel Silver Surfer is flying past him, and right in the next, he has Silver Surfer at his mercy.
It was faster than even we the readers could see lol. Thor had impressive reflexes feats like that throughout that entire fight. Now the most logical and the most probable answer for this? The situation and type of fight he is engaged in. In the first fight it was purely a brawl. Thor never had to resort to his speed and so on, while here, he had a flying Silver Surfer, and Adam Warlock attempting to stay out of his reach and not engage in hand to hand combat. So obviously Thor, would seem a lot faster than his fight with Him. Just skimming through both fights, and yes, Thor does seem a lot faster. I can even post both fights if you wish.
Of course what I’m saying makes sense. It’s me obviously. 😛
Seriously though, I am trying to be optimistic and see through your point of view, and yes, an argument could be made, but from what I understand, it’s a lot more likely that this was simply a Thor unleashing all of his power, than a Thor with an amp. I mean, when he had an amp, it was shown and stated quite clearly he did. I don’t believe these vague statements, are solid enough evidence, to come to such a conclusion, at least not in my personal opinion. I would have suggested a battlezone but unfortunately my computer was damaged in the fire (And my comic collection is not in my current living location.), and I do not have any scans except the ones on my photobucket account on me.
Originally posted by darthgoober Warlock's statement wasn't actually in response to the one shot Thor had thrown at him at that point, it was just him going over things in his head. He was questioning whether or not Thor was as powerful as he remembered to himself because he remembered Thor being an uber badass, he wasn't indicating that Thor was less powerful physically this time around.
Well, that’s what it certainly seemed to be to me. Thor decides to attack him physically, swings a blow and Warlock uses his superior state of mind and is able to flip him over and such. While this happens, he states, that Thor may not be as physically powerful as memory subjugated by fear may tell him. It certainly seemed to correspond with the attack, so yes to me; it does seem to be in relation to Thor attacking him physically. This really might matter on the way you view the fight.
If anything, let’s just agree to disagree if we aren't going anywhere with the argument.
srug
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Did you see how the fight went between Beta Ray Bill and Thor the first two times? He was beaten twice in a brawl and knocked out. It’s not surprise that Thor took him down with one unknown energy attack (Also like I’ve said before. “Power > Strength. Thor implementing his exotic powerset was able to put these two down much easier than he did with his blows.). Relentless damage builds up. That’s evident by how Thor was eventually downed by Beta Ray Bill with a few blows to the back of the neck and head.He never did anything he wasn’t capable off before. Even after the statement was made, Silver Surfer was able to hold his own against Thor for a time, without getting one shotted while having the lack of maneuverability his board could provide. Eventually after he started going all out Thor was able to down him in a blow. He downed him with a blow and he even momentarily knocked out Silver Surfer with a blow before that statement was made. Yet after the statement was made, Silver Surfer was still able to survive in a battle against Thor even while restraining himself for a time, until the point they both went out and the next time around he was actually knocked out for a lengthy time. It doesn’t indicate an amp, but simply demonstrates Thor’s superiority to both of them, in power when going all out, which is something that I agree with.
You act as if right after the statement Thor got some extremely obvious power boost of some sort which is far from the case. He seemed to have a constant power level until he received the gem which is nothing surprising. He didn’t go around one shotting them after that statement was made like you’re making it seem. He downed Beta Ray Bill, and eventually put down Silver Surfer after he was able to hold his own. He didn’t one shot Adam Warlock or Silver Surfer. Hell, even Beta Ray Bill received a beating twice until Thor so easily managed to put him down.
You keep saying that he didn't do anything new, but where are the examples outside of Blood and Thunder that support it? As for Surfer, we never saw any kind of fight go down between Surfer and Thor after Thor KO'd Bill. Thor lunged at Surfer once and Surfer pushed him back, then Thor apparently tackled Surfer successfully after the board left and he was about to nail Surfer when the board returned and Thor took out Surfer with one shot. Now I myself don't interpret the boards trip as being very long so I don't really consider there to be an off panel fight between them since I didn't see it and that's why I say that Thor took him down with one more shot. And if your case is that the trip took a minute and there was obviously a lot going on between the boards departure and it getting back on the scene it kills the argument that the fight is proof of Thor being superior to Surfer even more. According to Surfer he'd been holding back the entire time until his board got back so if Thor was beating him down off panel than his taking Surfer down in the end in no way proves that Thor's superior when both are going all out.
He did in my eyes. He was doing good before the statement, but it was after the statement that he really started dominating people.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Thor’s energy attacks aren’t depended on how much damage he physically receives unless it’s the God Blast which relies on his Godly energies. He didn’t receive any amp. He one shotted Beta Ray Bill with an energy attack “after” beating his ass twice physically. As shown in later issues during that arc, if you’ve read it, as explained by Sif, the injuries he received from Thor were had built up and after so many beatings he was knocked out for so much longer the last time he was put down. That’s what happens in a battle which isn’t surprising Thor put him down easier than he did before.By that logic, Beta Ray Bill received an amp in strength as well, as after getting his ass beat down twice he was able to down Thor with some well placed blows. That’s not the case. His efforts and all the fights Thor had during that arc eventually wore him down. I mean he didn’t put down the Silver Surfer any easier at all, after that statement. Norrin was even able to hold his own for a time while restraining himself in a physical brawl, but one they went all out, Thor downed him in a blow. The fight dragged on until the point Thor was able to knock him out in a blow. The knock out wasn’t exceptionally long, based on the amount of time, that seemed to past. Right after Warlock intervened, Silver Surfer eventually recovered.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
True, Thor does love his theatrics, but this isn’t Thor in a normal state of mind. I highly doubt a generic blast was all that was, if it was able to so easily put down Beta Ray Bill, despite the fact that he was weakened after such a beating. If that was the case, he would had a much easier time trying to put down Adam Warlock and the others, especially with possession of the gem. Of course Thor can augment his generic blasts and make them extremely powerful.
Before the statement you so cling to was made, he downed the Silver Surfer with a casual blow and even momentarily knocked him out with a blow.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
That’s because his never been in such a state of mind before against allies. He only unleashes his power when there is no other choice and even there it’s rare. We can see what a pissed off Thor can do and how much power he truly holds back.A great example is Durok and when he annihilated him. Neither he or the Silver Surfer were capable off putting down the likes of Durok before, even after such a prolonged fight and Norrin was forced to battle field remove him. Yet Thor single handedly while weakened and fighting beings like an amped Loki, Fenris, Ulik with Mjolnir copies and who knows what else for days, he was able to drop Durok himself in a single attack. Did he have an amp there because he was capable of doing something he didn’t show in the past? How about Mangog and how he dropped him?
It’s pretty evident that Thor truly holds back a great deal of his power even when in severe danger. When pushed and having no other choice or when say crazed, the difference between him and other top tiers such as the Silver Surfer, or Beta Ray Bill is made clear.
Durok's a poor guage though. Surfer was not only depowered during the period in which he and Durok squared off, he'd also just burned up who knows how much energy healing Balder and Thor from the brink of death. Loki and company are definitely impressive, but Durok's the only one who's really impressive and it's impossible to say whether it was accurate or if there was jobbing involved(on his part in round two or Thor and Surfer's in round one).
Or his insanity caused an amp.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
No I’m not. I’m not ignoring this, I thought I already addressed this, and we moved on? Like I said before, as stated his memory is subjugated to doubt and so on. At best you can say he received an amp in his speed which would be really, random for lack of better words. Warrior Madness increases one strength ten fold. One’s [b]strength. It’s not a physical amp in general where something such as speed would be amped ten fold. There could be many arguments made, such as, was Adam Warlock superior physically as Him in terms of speed then he was during that period of time? If that’s the case (Is he? I’m not sure.)then his memory such as it is, is logical. Also we have to look at the fight he had with Thor before.Did you read it? They trade blows for about 3 pages or so, get caught in a tight hand to hand fight, then Thor has had enough, downs Adam Warlock, charges through some boulders thrown with his “deadly mind power” (I always lol’d at that.), then continues, to give him a thorough pounding into submission. Reading through the fight in “Blood and Thunder” and yes Thor did seem a lot faster in that fight then he did with Him. It’s actually fairly obvious. Thor had some ridiculous speed feats. In one panel Silver Surfer is flying past him, and right in the next, he has Silver Surfer at his mercy.
It was faster than even we the readers could see lol. Thor had impressive reflexes feats like that throughout that entire fight. Now the most logical and the most probable answer for this? The situation and type of fight he is engaged in. In the first fight it was purely a brawl. Thor never had to resort to his speed and so on, while here, he had a flying Silver Surfer, and Adam Warlock attempting to stay out of his reach and not engage in hand to hand combat. So obviously Thor, would seem a lot faster than his fight with Him. Just skimming through both fights, and yes, Thor does seem a lot faster. I can even post both fights if you wish.
Of course what I’m saying makes sense. It’s me obviously. 😛
Seriously though, I am trying to be optimistic and see through your point of view, and yes, an argument could be made, but from what I understand, it’s a lot more likely that this was simply a Thor unleashing all of his power, than a Thor with an amp. I mean, when he had an amp, it was shown and stated quite clearly he did. I don’t believe these vague statements, are solid enough evidence, to come to such a conclusion, at least not in my personal opinion. I would have suggested a battlezone but unfortunately my computer was damaged in the fire (And my comic collection is not in my current living location.), and I do not have any scans except the ones on my photobucket account on me. [/B]
And IMO the most logical and probable explanation isn't the fight and situation, it's poor writing or an amp.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Well, that’s what it certainly seemed to be to me. Thor decides to attack him physically, swings a blow and Warlock uses his superior state of mind and is able to flip him over and such. While this happens, he states, that Thor may not be as physically powerful as memory subjugated by fear may tell him. It certainly seemed to correspond with the attack, so yes to me; it does seem to be in relation to Thor attacking him physically. This really might matter on the way you view the fight.If anything, let’s just agree to disagree if we aren't going anywhere with the argument.
srug
That's cool, we can agree to disagree. I actually have no solid stance on the matter beyond B&T not being valid for one reason or another. As far as I'm concerned Thor was either amped, or the fight's simply one big case of PIS/SvFL/bad writing that poorly portrayed the abilities of every character involved other than Thor.
Originally posted by darthgoober BRB's right on par with Thor physically, if Thor can recover enough from a beat down like that from BRB to one shot Surfer and then trounce Warlock and Surfer together, Bill shouldn't be taken out by a single blast like that.
I’ve always seen Thor as superior both physically and in power to Beta Ray Bill, and “Blood and Thunder” further cements this point of view. I mean, Odin gave Beta Ray Bill the advantage in their only actual fight. It was pretty heavily implied that Thor (From what I recall.) would have won otherwise, and this was with Thor seriously jobbing in that arc. I mean, heat, lava and so on was fatal to him and was weakening him, yet as we have seen in the past, heat is pretty much useless against him. His withstood the power of an exploding Sun and shrugged it off. It took him such a long time (Compared to his own recovery time not in general.) from superficial like injuries.
Beta Ray Bill also has ridiculous recovery time. As you know after he awoke in his natural form, he transformed into Beta Ray Bill despite his injuries and went on to fight the Infinity Watch plus Silver Surfer and Doctor Strange not long after. He also obviously has incredible recovery time. Not as efficient as Thor’s, but rather impressive. Like I said, before “Power > Strength”. We don’t know the type of attack it was, but Beta Ray Bill, has withstood planet shattering attacks unharmed, and survived unbothered in a Sun about to go nova as I recall. Thor really spun him for a loop with that blast.
I’m not surprised. I’ve always seen Thor as his and Silver Surfer’s superior especially when going all out. I would place it along these lines:
Classic Thor > Classic Silver Surfer >/= Beta Ray Bill > Stardust
Feel free to disagree, but from all I have witnessed and based from what I’ve seen, that’s the case.
Originally posted by darthgoober You keep saying that he didn't do anything new, but where are the examples outside of Blood and Thunder that support it? As for Surfer, we never saw any kind of fight go down between Surfer and Thor after Thor KO'd Bill. Thor lunged at Surfer once and Surfer pushed him back, then Thor apparently tackled Surfer successfully after the board left and he was about to nail Surfer when the board returned and Thor took out Surfer with one shot. Now I myself don't interpret the boards trip as being very long so I don't really consider there to be an off panel fight between them since I didn't see it and that's why I say that Thor took him down with one more shot. And if your case is that the trip took a minute and there was obviously a lot going on between the boards departure and it getting back on the scene it kills the argument that the fight is proof of Thor being superior to Surfer even more. According to Surfer he'd been holding back the entire time until his board got back so if Thor was beating him down off panel than his taking Surfer down in the end in no way proves that Thor's superior when both are going all out.
Thor has never been in such a state of mind nor had the opportunity to face these opponents at such a level outside of this arc. Asking me to provide proof outside of Blood and Thunder is rather silly, especially if it’s in regards to these specific characters. I view the board as taking about a minute or maybe two. It definitely wasn’t a long trip by any means, but it wasn’t a second or two either. Based on how aggressive Thor was, it’s a safe bet, that Thor landed a blow or two, in that span of time. It doesn’t disprove Thor’s superiority, it just in my opinion shows that Thor took him down eventually. It’s nothing he wasn’t capable off. Before that statement was made, Thor already momentarily knocked him out with a single blow and downed him with a single blow. The difference here, it seems that Thor was even more furious. As you recall, he had said enough, is enough and ended it right then and there.
Originally posted by darthgoober He did in my eyes. He was doing good before the statement, but it was after the statement that he really started dominating people.
He was dominating before and after the statement. I don’t find that statement as having any relevance at all.
Seriously, how would even Beta Ray Bill know Thor was receiving an amp? At that point, the Valkyrie was nothing but a creation off Thor’s own psyche. It doesn’t even make sense for him to get an amp. Where would he get an amp from? The Valkryie was nothing but Thor’s own mental creation. It wasn’t even visible to others until the Mind Gem interaction. There was no outside force applied here at all. It was Thor simply losing his mind as a result of Odin’s manipulations and sharing of his power. At best in my opinion, you can stretch out, that Thor was gaining more will and drive from his mental instability. It’s not unheard off even in the real world. I’ve always viewed her as a mental push. She was pushing him to levels he would not normally reach against allies and so on. Pushing him to a blood lusted stated of mind.
Originally posted by darthgoober We're not talking about Thor holding his own after a beat down, we're talking about him taking out two of the toughest guys in Marvel with a single shot each.
Okay, let’s take a different approach as to explain it better. Let’s look at this whole arc. Beta Ray Bill and Silver Surfer had already had their asses handed to them “before” and “after” the statement. Like I said, damage builds up as shown by Beta Ray Bill’s injuries. Thor eventually was able to one shot him with a powerful blast. The Silver Surfer was already downed, and even momentarily knocked out from what I saw, by a blow. Eventually Thor put him down in one shot. What do they have in common? Both were battle weary. He didn’t one shot the Silver Surfer after he had time to recover again. After tossing his ass around again, he put him at his mercy once again. He didn’t put down Maxam, or Drax in one shot either and I view Silver Surfer and Beta Ray Bill as their superiors. After handing them their asses along with the rest of the Infinity Watch during a battle, Thor had finally had enough it took Thor one fatal blow to put down each of them. By your logic he one shotted them, but a one shot, is in my book, a character taking only single blow to put down your opponent. Not two or three but one.
All of the opponents Thor meet got their asses handed to them easily that is true, but it was never done in one shot. None of them were beaten in one shot. After, a beating, Thor eventually had had enough and knocked out his opponents with a blow. Hell, Thor even hit Moondragon and Gamora with a sweep of his hammer, but he didn’t one shot them (Although it seems he swept at their feet.). You are so focused on that one statement that you seem to be forgetting what Thor was doing to his opponents before the statement.
Originally posted by darthgoober If they didn't say it was special, we assume it's generic. As for why he was able to take down BRB with a single blast but didn't against Surfer and Warlock later, I say it was just Marvel's way of indicating the amp to his abilities(since it was right after Bill's statement).
That must be some generic blast which can one shot someone who can shrug of planet destroying attacks.
sly
That statement had no significance and was made out of ignorance. But if you want to focus on it, then even going by that logic it was a temporarily amp, that was lost after he knocked out Beta Ray Bill.
I on the other hand, look at the events of the entire arc. Look at how he did against his enemies. Beta Ray Bill took the biggest beating. He was manhandled twice, and Thor put him down the easiest. If we use your logic, and he had an amp, then what, Moondragon is superior to Beta Ray Bill as Thor didn’t one shot her? No she isn’t.
Like I said before and am saying again, it wasn’t an amp, not at all, just Thor’s beating as Sif stated that had built up. Thor didn’t put him down in one shot, and he didn’t put down anyone in one shot.
He did hand everyone of them their asses, but after that, after he had said, clearly said, he had enough of the fight; he always easily put down his opponents in one or two blows. Before and after the statement which in itself has no significance at all. No amp was indicated at all. A vague statement made out of ignorance which in itself doesn’t make sense, as the Valkyrie was nothing more than a creation of Thor’s psyche doesn’t equate to an amp because you don’t like the way the fight went.
Originally posted by darthgoober It doesn't have to be against Allies, try an example featuring enemies on par with Bill, Surfer, and Warlock.
I just did.
Originally posted by darthgoober Durok's a poor guage though. Surfer was not only depowered during the period in which he and Durok squared off, he'd also just burned up who knows how much energy healing Balder and Thor from the brink of death. Loki and company are definitely impressive, but Durok's the only one who's really impressive and it's impossible to say whether it was accurate or if there was jobbing involved(on his part in round two or Thor and Surfer's in round one).
He is a poor gauge if we are basing him only Silver Surfer, that is true. He is not however a poor a gauge if the subject is Thor. Thor was nearly killed by Durok just by his physical blows, and Thor pushing himself could not put him down. That says a lot. Silver Surfer had to resort to battle field removal. Yet Thor when needed to, the next time around killed him in one attack. That’s how much power Thor restrains even when in real danger.
Originally posted by darthgoober Or his insanity caused an amp.
That doesn’t even make sense. How does someone losing their minds, cause a physical amp? At best it was all mental. Thor was mentally driven to levels he would not normally reach unless in very rare circumstances. That’s what happened, and that makes sense. The Valykrie is nothing more than a mental creation of Thor’s psyche as a result of Odin’s ignorance. How would Thor receive an amp from her when it was all in his mind?
At best you can say, he received an amp in terms of being pushed to levels he would not normally reach by being insane. I don’t see though how you can say he received an amp physically, when there is no indication of such, besides a vague statement, and Thor’s state having been caused by a mental break down.
Originally posted by darthgoober If he was amped in ANY way without specific details regarding it, it means that he's not being portrayed as "normal Thor". If they had just said that he just got a speed increase that would be one thing, but they didn't so we don't know what all the amp constituted. All we know is that it wasn't "Thor" it was "Blood and Thunder Thor".
Like I said, Warlock’s memory is subjugated to change, and because he seems faster to Warlock doesn’t make him faster. Like I said, looking at that fight he had with Him, there a number of reasons as to why he said what he said. Thor definitely seemed a lot faster in this arc than he did when he fought Him. Why? Because Thor had to rely on his speed and reflexes in this fight. So of course he was portrayed and seemed faster. He seemed faster to me, because here he had to rely on speed, to get a hold of his opponents.
Originally posted by darthgoober And IMO the most logical and probable explanation isn't the fight and situation, it's poor writing or an amp.
So it’s poor writing now just because you dislike the way the fights were written? It’s not as if anyone was jobbing, or anything of the sort, it was simply Thor blood lusted, and he did what I and a lot of people it’s safe to say, think he should be able to do when blood lusted. I know it’s not amp. Not enough evidence to suggest it is an amp.
Originally posted by darthgoober Thor didn't connect, Warlock didn't know whether or not Thor was hitting as hard as he remembered. And he couldn't have been basing it off the speed of the attack, because we know for a fact that Thor was faster in B&T than he was in Warrior Madness.
Never said he did. Warlock was able to though flip him over and so of course he would seem less physically powerful. Just to clear it up, Warrior Madness Thor is not faster than standard Thor. How do we know for a fact that Thor was faster for a fact in this arc than normal Thor? Of his statement, based off a memory Warlock himself said is subjugated to change, and fear. Of course he seemed faster. He had to move faster in this fight, a lot faster, as his opponents here were relying on distance and speed, not brute strength and power.
Originally posted by darthgoober That's cool, we can agree to disagree. I actually have no solid stance on the matter beyond B&T not being valid for one reason or another. As far as I'm concerned Thor was either amped, or the fight's simply one big case of PIS/SvFL/bad writing that poorly portrayed the abilities of every character involved other than Thor.
That might be your stance but mine is completely different. I don’t see any indication and enough evidence to safely come to the conclusion, that Thor was amped. It doesn’t even really make sense. Calling it plot induced stupidity is just stretching it in my opinion. Okay, I will agree to disagree. So that being said, this will be my last post on the matter.
Originally posted by dmillsThor >cosmic beings
I'll leave it at this. Thor (Eric Masterson) had Thanos (with the infinity gauntlet) on the ropes and was about to deliver the killing blow. No one else, not even the cosmic beings, even came close.
Originally posted by dmillsThat happening. Nova looked better in the fight.
nova vs thor
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I’ve always seen Thor as superior both physically and in power to Beta Ray Bill, and “Blood and Thunder” further cements this point of view. I mean, Odin gave Beta Ray Bill the advantage in their only actual fight. It was pretty heavily implied that Thor (From what I recall.) would have won otherwise, and this was with Thor seriously jobbing in that arc. I mean, heat, lava and so on was fatal to him and was weakening him, yet as we have seen in the past, heat is pretty much useless against him. His withstood the power of an exploding Sun and shrugged it off. It took him such a long time (Compared to his own recovery time not in general.) from superficial like injuries.Beta Ray Bill also has ridiculous recovery time. As you know after he awoke in his natural form, he transformed into Beta Ray Bill despite his injuries and went on to fight the Infinity Watch plus Silver Surfer and Doctor Strange not long after. He also obviously has incredible recovery time. Not as efficient as Thor’s, but rather impressive. Like I said, before “Power > Strength”. We don’t know the type of attack it was, but Beta Ray Bill, has withstood planet shattering attacks unharmed, and survived unbothered in a Sun about to go nova as I recall. Thor really spun him for a loop with that blast.
I’m not surprised. I’ve always seen Thor as his and Silver Surfer’s superior especially when going all out. I would place it along these lines:
Classic Thor > Classic Silver Surfer >/= Beta Ray Bill > Stardust
Feel free to disagree, but from all I have witnessed and based from what I’ve seen, that’s the case.
BRB is as close to being Thor's physical equal as anyone, he shouldn't be going down to one blast like that. If you disagree about BRB being right on par with Thor, then we'll just have to agree to disagree.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Thor has never been in such a state of mind nor had the opportunity to face these opponents at such a level outside of this arc. Asking me to provide proof outside of Blood and Thunder is rather silly, especially if it’s in regards to these specific characters. I view the board as taking about a minute or maybe two. It definitely wasn’t a long trip by any means, but it wasn’t a second or two either. Based on how aggressive Thor was, it’s a safe bet, that Thor landed a blow or two, in that span of time. It doesn’t disprove Thor’s superiority, it just in my opinion shows that Thor took him down eventually. It’s nothing he wasn’t capable off. Before that statement was made, Thor already momentarily knocked him out with a single blow and downed him with a single blow. The difference here, it seems that Thor was even more furious. As you recall, he had said enough, is enough and ended it right then and there.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
He was dominating before and after the statement. I don’t find that statement as having any relevance at all.Seriously, how would even Beta Ray Bill know Thor was receiving an amp? At that point, the Valkyrie was nothing but a creation off Thor’s own psyche. It doesn’t even make sense for him to get an amp. Where would he get an amp from? The Valkryie was nothing but Thor’s own mental creation. It wasn’t even visible to others until the Mind Gem interaction. There was no outside force applied here at all. It was Thor simply losing his mind as a result of Odin’s manipulations and sharing of his power. At best in my opinion, you can stretch out, that Thor was gaining more will and drive from his mental instability. It’s not unheard off even in the real world. I’ve always viewed her as a mental push. She was pushing him to levels he would not normally reach against allies and so on. Pushing him to a blood lusted stated of mind.
Because he was recovering from something that would have otherwise put him down. People are often portrayed as amped when they're nuts, both in and out of real life. I
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Okay, let’s take a different approach as to explain it better. Let’s look at this whole arc. Beta Ray Bill and Silver Surfer had already had their asses handed to them “before” and “after” the statement. Like I said, damage builds up as shown by Beta Ray Bill’s injuries. Thor eventually was able to one shot him with a powerful blast. The Silver Surfer was already downed, and even momentarily knocked out from what I saw, by a blow. Eventually Thor put him down in one shot. What do they have in common? Both were battle weary. He didn’t one shot the Silver Surfer after he had time to recover again. After tossing his ass around again, he put him at his mercy once again. He didn’t put down Maxam, or Drax in one shot either and I view Silver Surfer and Beta Ray Bill as their superiors. After handing them their asses along with the rest of the Infinity Watch during a battle, Thor had finally had enough it took Thor one fatal blow to put down each of them. By your logic he one shotted them, but a one shot, is in my book, a character taking only [b]single blow to put down your opponent. Not two or three but one.All of the opponents Thor meet got their asses handed to them easily that is true, but it was never done in one shot. None of them were beaten in one shot. After, a beating, Thor eventually had had enough and knocked out his opponents with a blow. Hell, Thor even hit Moondragon and Gamora with a sweep of his hammer, but he didn’t one shot them (Although it seems he swept at their feet.). You are so focused on that one statement that you seem to be forgetting what Thor was doing to his opponents before the statement. [/B]
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
That must be some generic blast which can one shot someone who can shrug of planet destroying attacks.sly
That statement had no significance and was made out of ignorance. But if you want to focus on it, then even going by that logic it was a temporarily amp, that was lost after he knocked out Beta Ray Bill.
I on the other hand, look at the events of the entire arc. Look at how he did against his enemies. Beta Ray Bill took the biggest beating. He was manhandled twice, and Thor put him down the easiest. If we use your logic, and he had an amp, then what, Moondragon is superior to Beta Ray Bill as Thor didn’t one shot her? No she isn’t.
Like I said before and am saying again, it wasn’t an amp, not at all, just Thor’s beating as Sif stated that had built up. Thor didn’t put him down in one shot, and he didn’t put down anyone in one shot.
He did hand everyone of them their asses, but after that, after he had said, clearly said, he had enough of the fight; he always easily put down his opponents in one or two blows. Before and after the statement which in itself has no significance at all. No amp was indicated at all. A vague statement made out of ignorance which in itself doesn’t make sense, as the Valkyrie was nothing more than a creation of Thor’s psyche doesn’t equate to an amp because you don’t like the way the fight went.
Makes sense, all it would require would be his being amped or some bad writing.
Why would the amp only last until BRB was ko'd?
No Surfer was put down the easiest. He took 4 or 5 shots before the statement and was then ko'd with the only other shot we see landed on him. Surfer shouldn't be going down to so few shots from Thor unless there's an amp or bad writing involved. There's plenty of evidence outside the arc supports this(like Surfer easily shaking off shots from guys like the Hulk, Wonder Man, and BRB).
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
So it’s poor writing now just because you dislike the way the fights were written? It’s not as if anyone was jobbing, or anything of the sort, it was simply Thor blood lusted, and he did what I and a lot of people it’s safe to say, think he should be able to do when blood lusted. I know it’s not amp. Not enough evidence to suggest it is an amp.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Never said he did. Warlock was able to though flip him over and so of course he would seem less physically powerful. Just to clear it up, Warrior Madness Thor is not faster than standard Thor. How do we know for a fact that Thor was faster for a fact in this arc than normal Thor? Of his statement, based off a memory Warlock himself said is subjugated to change, and fear. Of course he seemed faster. He had to move faster in this fight, a lot faster, as his opponents here were relying on distance and speed, not brute strength and power.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
That might be your stance but mine is completely different. I don’t see any indication and enough evidence to safely come to the conclusion, that Thor was amped. It doesn’t even really make sense. Calling it plot induced stupidity is just stretching it in my opinion. Okay, I will agree to disagree. So that being said, this will be my last post on the matter.
But I'm cool with agreeing to disagree on that if you're done, so I'll just wait for quan to get back to continue(since I doubt he will).
