If God knew that Satan would rebel and Adam and Eve would sin, why did He create?

Originally posted by Sado22
i mentioned that east has less "child" problems than the west. you can stop this nonsense by continuing the argument by telling me why i'm wrong.

1) i'm actually talkng about physical aging
2) girls played with dolls as late as early teens even in the 20th century. what's your point?
3) there wasn't much "passtime" 1400 years ago, especially for women
4) and can you tell me where you read this?

less social/emotional issues? are u KIDDING ME?! sujugation of women, child abuse, no freedom of speech, majority living in rampant poverty, the likes of which never touches the first world, people having no social right to love or marry as they please and arranged marriages being the norm, no adequate social institutions like public schooling, predominantly corruptgovernment, no relegious freedom, insane taboos which hamper people from even trying to seek mental help because pathological modes of behaviour{i.e. beating children} are not considered wrong and normal biological imperetives are social and moral sins{i.e. masturbating and liking a person of the opposite sex or not agreeing with ur parents on runnfing your life} much less having the money to go to the APPALINGLY small number of qualified therapists, rampant violence and POSITIVELY NO RULE OF LAW, a police force that is 100% corrupt and criminal while criminals/gangsters/tribal lords run the streets and the governments???? what about the army owning 89% of all the wealth and no democracy?

you see the OPENING PHRASE of my argument is "less social/emotional issues?". which OBVIOUSLY means i wasnt just referring to hitting children, that is your comprehension problems. also, if you look back, this was a direct reply to you making the CLAIM that the east had less sociol/emotional issues. again, not the same as child abuse, which you are now trying to paint this as.

pathetic. there was no difference in physical aging between then and now. muhammad was a pedophile.

Ok you got proof for this?

Is that common?

Ok is this the explanation your giving for her playing with dolls, are you sure thats the reason why?

Its a hadith cant rememeber which one

you see the OPENING PHRASE of my argument is "less social/emotional issues?". which OBVIOUSLY means i wasnt just referring to hitting children, that is your comprehension problems. also, if you look back, this was a direct reply to you making the CLAIM that the east had less sociol/emotional issues. again, not the same as child abuse, which you are now trying to paint this as. pathetic.

~Sado

Originally posted by Sado22
early 1900's, yes. you seem to be missed the point of low life expectancy, mate. when the average life span of a person was 30-40 years at best the growth and development of people, physiology and all that is different. the best proof i can give you is what i said, girls as late as 1960's were being married off at 16 BECAUSE they were maturing faster than girls of the same age today.

not entirely accurate

girls were maturing faster because culturally, they were being forced into adult situations earlier.

Life span has nothing to do with rate of development, other than to say, before huge breakthroughs in science created a standard of living where people at 13 didn't need to earn an income, such social pressures on people never forced their maturation. The human body, and ESPECIALLY the human mind are highly reactive to the outside cultural environment. I think you are just putting the cart before the horse.

Originally posted by Sado22
proof? i'll post the rare pornographic pics of girls from the sixth century taken from sand cameras with the lens made of broken teeth.

Ok so you dont have any proof, so we could assume that they didnt.

Originally posted by Sado22

early 1900's, yes. you seem to be missed the point of low life expectancy, mate. when the average life span of a person was 30-40 years at best the growth and development of people, physiology and all that is different. the best proof i can give you is what i said, girls as late as 1960's were being married off at 16 BECAUSE they were maturing faster than girls of the same age today.

I edited my post.

Is that common? Edit: Just read your post again properly getting married to a 13 or 14 is dodgey........cmon man,

Im get the point. Sorry thats an assumption with no proof, my point is 9 years old is still too young.

Originally posted by Sado22

no i'm not sure. i'm just pointing out that there was nothing much to do anyway.

Ok well im gonna forget about that then.

Originally posted by Sado22

even if there is, i'm sure you're missing the context of it. not to mention that i don't recall reading such a one, don't recall hearing of such a one and don't see the point of the prophet mentioning his wife playing with dolls because hadiths were usually short sermons and not gossip.

I used to be muslim and im fairly certain I heard it numerous times.

Originally posted by inimalist
not entirely accurate

girls were maturing faster because culturally, they were being forced into adult situations earlier.

Life span has nothing to do with rate of development,

Exactly. My point about the dolls is that Aisha wasnt even mentally mature because she was still playing with dolls when she got married.

if i also remember correctly. the prophet used to lpay childish games with her like hide and seek as well as letting her girlfriends play with her in her free time when ADULTS were working or confined to their husband's house and housework. it is VERY clear that she was a child, not to mention the idea that 9 year olds are adults IN THE PAST is absolutely LUDICROUS!

Originally posted by leonheartmm
if i also remember correctly. the prophet used to lpay childish games with her like hide and seek as well as letting her girlfriends play with her in her free time when ADULTS were working or confined to their husband's house and housework. it is VERY clear that she was a child, not to mention the idea that 9 year olds are adults IN THE PAST is absolutely LUDICROUS!

Well I think that clinches it, bang out of order.

Originally posted by Sado22
early 1900's, yes. you seem to be missed the point of low life expectancy, mate. when the average life span of a person was 30-40 years at best the growth and development of people, physiology and all that is different. the best proof i can give you is what i said, girls as late as 1960's were being married off at 16 BECAUSE they were maturing faster than girls of the same age today.

Life expectancy was pretty much the same, except in children. If you lived past 14 it was quite possible to live into your 60s and 70s. People did not physically mature faster.

The more important difference is that pedophilia as we think of it didn't really exist at the time. The cultural context was completely alien.

Ok so you dont have any proof, so we could assume that they didnt.

edited my post.
Is that common? Edit: Just read your post again properly getting married to a 13 or 14 is dodgey........cmon man,
Im get the point. Sorry thats an assumption with no proof, my point is 9 years old is still too young.

Life expectancy was pretty much the same, except in children. If you lived past 14 it was quite possible to live into your 60s and 70s.

People did not physically mature faster.

The more important difference is that pedophilia as we think of it didn't really exist at the time. The cultural context was completely alien.

My point about the dolls is that Aisha wasnt even mentally mature because she was still playing with dolls when she got married.

if i also remember correctly. the prophet used to lpay childish games with her like hide and seek as well as letting her girlfriends play with her in her free time when ADULTS were working or confined to their husband's house and housework. it is VERY clear that she was a child, not to mention the idea that 9 year olds are adults IN THE PAST is absolutely LUDICROUS!

~Sado

^they dont age fast. they are FORCED TO TAKE ON the roles of adults but that has nuthing to do with the development of the body or the brain. it was always pedophelia and was always wrong.

they dont age fast. they are FORCED TO TAKE ON the roles of adults but that has nuthing to do with the development of the body or the brain. it was always pedophelia and was always wrong.

Originally posted by Sado22

not when you consider how things were back then. that's what i meant when i said you're missing the context. you're still thinking "zomg! 9 years!" from todays standards but its not that way back then. then there's the issue of mental maturity and how inimilist said that society controls maturity and all that.

Which why the dolls were mentioned, hide and seek etc.

Originally posted by Sado22

and finally, pair that up with the fact that you're talking about a hadith that i've never heard of and no one else here seems to have heard of either.

Leo knows what im talking about.

Originally posted by Sado22

so maybe people would look at our generation and make the same assumption: those people were pedophiles because they were marrying even when they read comic books and played videogames well into their 30's 😂
but are we really, or are we just playing videogames and reading comics because its an available means of enjoyment today, especially when you dont want to indulge into serious things.
that's what i think you're missing.

Dolls were not created for adults in those days and by and large they are not now. So yes I can make that assumption.

Originally posted by Sado22

the girls matured faster because social expectations from them were VERY different from today, whats there not to understand?

and mature women didnt play with dolls.

Originally posted by Sado22
coming from the guy who doesn't know shite about the middle east and hasn't been here long enough to tell. don't sit in pakiland and tell me how the arabs are, please, you're being foolish.
the girls matured faster because social expectations from them were VERY different from today, whats there not to understand?

so your claiming that girls in arabia physically mature faster than the wrest if the world and go on to insult me for not BEING in arabia?!?!?!?!? 😆 😆 😆 😆

are you stupid or what. expectations DONT MATTER, you cant create a sexual being much less a sexual being with a mind PHYSICALLY developed to the point that she can emotionally handle having sex at the age of 9. it CANT BE DONE NO MATTER WHERE YOU ARE. now stop this silliness and learn a little about psychology.

oh, btw, ur also forgetting that 9 year olds cant give consent much less WANT to marry any1. muhammad was a pedophile. deal with it.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
^they dont age fast. they are FORCED TO TAKE ON the roles of adults but that has nuthing to do with the development of the body or the brain. it was always pedophelia and was always wrong.

actually, it can cause hormones to rush them through puberty

in the west, we have later puberty than, afaik, they did 100 years ago, but this is largely because people at 12 aren't expected to be labourers.

psych studies show that prolonged childhood development is much better for children, and not forcing their body to rapidly mature is far better than the alternatives.

^im talking about the emotional development of sex drive etc. puberty alone doesnt do that. males can reach puberty as young as 12 but does that mean that they are emotionally ready to have sex let alone be married OFF???? nope.

and NO1 reaches puberty at 9 simply because they are put in a marriage. thats way too early unless we are discussing very rare cases.

also, the ody of a 12 or 13 year old girl has not PHYSICALLY developed enough to carry and sustain for a child, putting the health of both mother and child at risk, not to mention long term damages.

fact is, relegious rationalisations for such things{and child abuse, as no doubt uve heard on this thread } are pathetic.

fair enough. There are different parts of puberty, and I don't even know if the psychological development you are talking about would be best described as such, but I hear you.

Originally posted by inimalist
fair enough. There are different parts of puberty, and I don't even know if the psychological development you are talking about would be best described as such, but I hear you.

i dont dispute it. i just dont like fallacious arguments with nuthing more than half a grain of truth to be used as raitionalisations by relegious people to justify pedophelia and beating children etc.

actually, it can cause hormones to rush them through puberty. in the west, we have later puberty than, afaik, they did 100 years ago, but this is largely because people at 12 aren't expected to be labourers.

so your claiming that girls in arabia physically mature faster than the wrest if the world and go on to insult me for not BEING in arabia?!?!?!?!?

so, here I'll say it again, pay attention:
when a desert, nomadic lifestyle is the life style norm for thousands of years (because semitic people have always been nomads) the human mind and body, adapt. that's why people in different times of the world and in different parts are different in terms of resistances and strengths and growth. what mentally scars and hampers children today doesn't mean that it would back then...especially if they had spent, not decades, not centuries but MILLENIAS in that envirnoment. imo, that's the crucial bit which no one's considering here. these people had been living that life for thousnads of years. and you adapt when you're doing it for thousands of years. that's just how it is. the best proof of this is that these girls were givig birth at that age too. can girls give birth at nine today? maybe in someparts but generally no. or are you seriously going to suggest that thousands of years of that hardlife and short life expectancy would have no effect on growth, maturity and devlopment?

besides, the fact that girls like Aisha were giving birth is proof that girls at her time were (at least) physically mature enough to marry and have kids and had been for millenias before that.

is that really so hard to grasp?

Dolls were not created for adults in those days and by and large they are not now. So yes I can make that assumption.

but, oh lord, aisha played with dolls so she MUST be immature and a naive little girl despite how girls at her age were maturing faster...to the pont that they were giving birth at the age of 10. you're still thinking from 21st century prespectives.

"dolls are for little girls, therefor aisha was a little girl, mentally and phsyically." you're whole argument is rooted in this claim, a claim that's a guess and based on what you see around you today. its not a historical fact unless i see evidence of it. also i need to see this hadith.

also you totally ignored the whole bt with the comics and vg's. answer me this.

~Sado

^im isulting your relegion and its founder. but thats not the same as insulting you as a person. i did challenge your arguments because they were ignorant.

dont try to mislead, that is not what you meant, u had{and have} no EXPLANATION for ur claim of girls maturing faster. that is also fact. if the only thing which you can bring to your defence is "they didnt die" than its a pathetic argument, many women hae babies at 13, but you conveniently do not go into the complications of it or the physical and mental effects tha has on them and their babies. instead your using the very fact that aisha cud do it {were never showed what it cost her in sanity physique} as a circular argument for it. i think this is in part due o you not KNOWING about any of the sideaffect and not wanting to know either.

children werer the same back then, they didnt always die{but many a time they did} due to the roles that were put on them. but they suffered just like they wud suffer now if they had to live that sort of lifestyle. human beings have not evolved so significantly in the last millenium that you can make silly rationalisations like "they adapted". its more like "they lived with it". which is not the same as HEALTH. u can live with HIV and torture, does that make it ok to inflict either upon another person??????

beating still hurt them the same as it hurts us, physically and mentally. a 9 year old CHILD at the time was very much identical, biologicall to a 9 year old CHILD today. nuthing can turn a 9 year old into a sexually mature adult.

im isulting your relegion and its founder. but thats not the same as insulting you as a person. i did challenge your arguments because they were ignorant

and again, syaing you're acting foolish is not really an insult. i could always rephrase that as "you're a phucking (fill-in-the-blank)" and now that'd be insulting. and that's exactly why i didn't use it.

dont try to mislead, that is not what you meant, u had{and have} no EXPLANATION for ur claim of girls maturing faster. that is also fact.

think about it: Charlie Chaplain was 30 when he married his first wife who was 16 (and that was pretty common at the time). was that pedophilia? in japan even today 14 is a legal age for girls. now you can argue all your want for it or against it, but in that culture for whatever reason they consider a girl not only physically mature but emotionally mature to handle life. its their culture. but somehow, muhammed becomes a pedophile for marrying a nine year old in his culture fourteen centuries ago because at the tme a girl was considered just as mature and developed as a 14 year old girl is in Japan in the 21st century.

and lastly, i didn't say them not dying was the proof. the proof was that most girls were considered healthy and ready to give birth back then. same way people consider 14 year old girls mature enough in japan today. you see what you're missing?

CULTURAL CONTEXT.

if the only thing which you can bring to your defence is "they didnt die" than its a pathetic argument, many women hae babies at 13, but you conveniently do not go into the complications of it or the physical and mental effects tha has on them and their babies. instead your using the very fact that aisha cud do it {were never showed what it cost her in sanity physique} as a circular argument for it. i think this is in part due o you not KNOWING about any of the sideaffect and not wanting to know either

still, thank you for being civil with this post. i may not agree with you but arguments to me are ways to see how your views hold up against those of others. and a chance to learn new things. oh and i probably offended you with some of my comments, as well. my apologizies too.

~Sado

Originally posted by Sado22
that's my point, and when you chalk that up to 30-40 life expectancy in extremely tough nomadic life for thousands of years.......i mean lets be hoenst here: child life in nomadic desert lifestyle 600AD for thousands of years>>child labor

I'll give you that

yet, I'd have to say I don't think that it makes it possible for a 9 year old to be psychologically or physically ready for sex.

I wouldn't call Mohammad a pedophile though, as it was a cultural practice and not a sexual compulsion toward children that was behind the marriage. That he had so many other wives who weren't children should attest to that.