Also consider the fact that everyone in the Matrix knows or has heard rumors about Morpheus. Nation-wide manhunts have been formed because of him. He's known as a highly dangerous terrorist. Even Agent Smith calls him "the great and powerful Morpheus". The Merovingian refers to him as "the legendary Morpheus". Trinity gets no such treatment.
Re: Martial Artist Rankings
Originally posted by Darth Martin
[B]Uber Tier (Un-Earthly Martial Artists): Morpheus, Neo, Po, River Tam, Shifu, Tai Lung, The Protector, YuLaw
[/B]
Morpheus and Neo are not actually particulary skilled in a real world sense. Look at the one fist fight that occured outside the Matrix in the films. Its more like they are really good gamers, like if you or I got really good at Mortal Kombat. River's fighting ability had more to do with her precognative abilities and physical enhancments then pure skill. Po, Tai Long, and Shifu are cartoons and I question whether they should even be on the same list. That aside one has to question how much of their ability is skill, how much of it is the benefit of their inhumaness, and how much of it is mystic chi etc. Yu Law is another where while he is a skilled martial artist most of his success came from his enhancements and even then normal people could put him on the ropes if they managed to get the drop on him. Is the Protector Tony Jaa from the movie of the same title?
Originally posted by Darth Martin
[B]Top Tier (Greatest Martial Artists): Beatrix Kiddo, Batman(Bale), Blade, Captain America, Daredevil, Elektra, Jason Bourne, John Preston, Liu Kang, Nite Owl, Ozymandias, Ra’s Al Ghul, Selene, Silk Spectre, The Transporter, Tigress
[/B]
Captain America I assume is the animated version. So again I find hard to judge. In the same catagory as the others. Well that and he is amped on Super Soldier Serum. Though I don't know how much effect that has on his abilities. I'll admitt it is hard to judge, because of the craptastic nature of the fights in his films, but Bale Batman was not particularly impressive. Daredevil, Selene, and Blade all have superpowers muddling the issue. So do Kang and Elektra to a smaller degree. Preston is an interesting case. His fighting ability is based mostly on statistics of where and when somebody is going to be. Its how the gun kata works, probability. So one wonders how he'd do against somebody fighting slop. In some form of skill, but hard to judge in comparison to the others. Ozy is stupid levels of fast, but that doesn't mean he is a super skilled. Being faster and stronger means he doesn't have to be(though some may argue that his incredible speed and strength is martial skill in its self). Is Tigress the character from "Gladiator" that Maximus fights near the end or some one else?
Originally posted by Darth Martin
[B]Second Tier (Master Martial Artists): Achilles, Agent(Matrix), Agent 47, Agent Smith, Darth Maul, James Bond(Craig), Lady Deathstrike, Mai Lihn, Mystique, Nemo, Power Rangers, Rorschach, The Operative(Serenity), Trinity, Wolf, Worf, V
[/B]
Lets start with Smith. He is a computer program, but in human form he had little in the way of practical skill. Though one imagines he had an enyclopedic academic knowledge. Trinity is similiar. As are all Matrix characters. Again Deathstrike, Maul, Wolf, Worf, Mystique, V, and the Rangers all have inhuman powers augmenting their abilities. As others have said I don't recall Achilles fighting with out weapons. Considering the other folks that Mal has jobbed to over the years I'm not sure The Operative should be this high.
Originally posted by Darth Martin
[B]Third Tier (Highly Skilled Martial Artists): Beck, Bullseye, Bumblebee, Bob Lee Swagger, Cyclops, Darius Stone, Elasti-Girl, Fox(Wanted), James Bond(Brosnan, Connery) Jango Fett, Jean-Luc Picard, John Rambo, John Triton, Kingpin, Lara Croft, Leonidas, Martin Riggs, Obi-Wan Kenobi, Optimus Prime, Punisher(Jane), Red Grant, Sabretooth, Sonny, Spawn, Spock, Wolverine, Zorro(Banderas)
[/B]
Bumblebee and Prime are giant machine with strongley different attributes then humans. Though one could argue the are skilled in Transformer-Fu even if is different from human fighting forms. Then we get back into augmented humans. Kenobi, Sonny, Spock, Wolverine, Sabertooth etc and cartoons like Elasti-Girl. On the other hand Bullseye is in the I fight superhumans on skill alone catagory.
Originally posted by Darth Martin
[B]Fourth Tier (Trained Martial Artists): Alan Quartermain, Blonsky, Comedian, General Grievous, James Kirk, John McClane, Joker(Ledger), Malcolm Reynolds, Mr. Incredible, Mathayus, Memnon, Nightcrawler, Nomak, The Russian, Thing, Tyler Durden, Wesley Gibson, Xander Cage
[/B]
Some supers running around in this catagory to. Also besides what he got from the military I don't think Mal had any formal training. The same more or less goes for McClane as well. Mathayus on the other hand showed a fair amount of skill.
Originally posted by Darth Martin
[B]Accomplished Fighter (Little formal training/Some Skill ): Abomination, Beast, Colossus, Green Goblin, Hancock, Harry Potter, Hulk, Indiana Jones, Iron Man, Jason Vorhees, Juggernaut, Michael Myers, New Goblin, Spider-Man, Superman, Two-Face [/B]
Mostly supers in this catagory. I will say though given his displayed versitility and apptitude for it I think this list way undersells Indy.
To be fair I'll try a list of my own. Some characters may be removed or added I see fit. Note this is also a rough list.
1st Tier(top tier)
Bullseye, Beatrix Kiddo, John Preston, The Protector, Night Owl, Silk Spectre, Ozymandias, Blade.
2nd Tier
Transporter, Bourne, Rambo, Liu Kang, Ra's Al Ghul, Elektra.
3rd Tier
Daredevil, Bond, Bond, Martin Riggs, Spock, Kirk, Beck, Mathayus, Swagger, Comedian, Rorschach, Mai Lihn, The Operative, Indiana Jones, Nemo, Quartermain, Prime, Bale Batman. Kenobi, Maul, Tam, Deathstrike, Wolf, Worf, V, Spawn, Power Rangers, Mystique and some of the other Super/metahumans may fall into this catagory as well as folks such as Achilles, Leonidas, Memnon, Croft and Zorro who are almost never with out weapons.
4th Tier
Bumblebee, Triton, Picard, Kingpin, Red Grant, Cyclops.
5th Tier
Darius Stone, Xander Cage, Wolverine, Sabertooth, Mal, Nomak, McClane, Thing, The Russian, Durden, Joker, Blonsky, Trinity, Morpheus, Neo, Smith, Nightcrawler, Beast, Juggernaut, Hulk, Abomination.
6th Tier
Hancock, Harry Potter, Spider-man, Superman, The Goblins, Myers, Vorhees, Iron-Man.
Again its a rough draft open to change based on input from others.
Ok, you make some interesting points. But I think you have me confused on some listings. Indiana Jones in the same category as Batman and Rorshach?
Although I do agree that Ra's Al Ghul is more skilled and superior to Batman h2h-wise. I think that's an underrated fact around here. Kudos for noticing that!
I think most characters are either going to be powered or faster and stronger then regular people. I highly disagree with you on the placement of Morpheus, Trinity, and Smith.
I think your third tier list should be split in to two. Some of those chracters shouldn't be there.
Thanks for atleast sharing your opinion in detail. 👆
Originally posted by Darth Martin
I think most characters are either going to be powered or faster and stronger then regular people. I highly disagree with you on the placement of Morpheus, Trinity, and Smith.
I disagree with you but I disagree with him even more. They are all effectively "programmed" to be masters in every form of martial arts ever created. In terms of pure martial arts skill then on that basis they are more skilled than almost anyone else.
Originally posted by Nightstick
Morpheus and Neo are not actually particulary skilled in a real world sense. Look at the one fist fight that occured outside the Matrix in the films. Its more like they are really good gamers, like if you or I got really good at Mortal Kombat. River's fighting ability had more to do with her precognative abilities and physical enhancments then pure skill. Po, Tai Long, and Shifu are cartoons and I question whether they should even be on the same list. That aside one has to question how much of their ability is skill, how much of it is the benefit of their inhumaness, and how much of it is mystic chi etc. Yu Law is another where while he is a skilled martial artist most of his success came from his enhancements and even then normal people could put him on the ropes if they managed to get the drop on him. Is the Protector Tony Jaa from the movie of the same title?Captain America I assume is the animated version. So again I find hard to judge. In the same catagory as the others. Well that and he is amped on Super Soldier Serum. Though I don't know how much effect that has on his abilities. I'll admitt it is hard to judge, because of the craptastic nature of the fights in his films, but Bale Batman was not particularly impressive. Daredevil, Selene, and Blade all have superpowers muddling the issue. So do Kang and Elektra to a smaller degree. Preston is an interesting case. His fighting ability is based mostly on statistics of where and when somebody is going to be. Its how the gun kata works, probability. So one wonders how he'd do against somebody fighting slop. In some form of skill, but hard to judge in comparison to the others. Ozy is stupid levels of fast, but that doesn't mean he is a super skilled. Being faster and stronger means he doesn't have to be(though some may argue that his incredible speed and strength is martial skill in its self). Is Tigress the character from "Gladiator" that Maximus fights near the end or some one else?
Lets start with Smith. He is a computer program, but in human form he had little in the way of practical skill. Though one imagines he had an enyclopedic academic knowledge. Trinity is similiar. As are all Matrix characters. Again Deathstrike, Maul, Wolf, Worf, Mystique, V, and the Rangers all have inhuman powers augmenting their abilities. As others have said I don't recall Achilles fighting with out weapons. Considering the other folks that Mal has jobbed to over the years I'm not sure The Operative should be this high.
Bumblebee and Prime are giant machine with strongley different attributes then humans. Though one could argue the are skilled in Transformer-Fu even if is different from human fighting forms. Then we get back into augmented humans. Kenobi, Sonny, Spock, Wolverine, Sabertooth etc and cartoons like Elasti-Girl. On the other hand Bullseye is in the I fight superhumans on skill alone catagory.
Some supers running around in this catagory to. Also besides what he got from the military I don't think Mal had any formal training. The same more or less goes for McClane as well. Mathayus on the other hand showed a fair amount of skill.
Mostly supers in this catagory. I will say though given his displayed versitility and apptitude for it I think this list way undersells Indy.
To be fair I'll try a list of my own. Some characters may be removed or added I see fit. Note this is also a rough list.
1st Tier(top tier)
Bullseye, Beatrix Kiddo, John Preston, The Protector, Night Owl, Silk Spectre, Ozymandias, Blade.2nd Tier
Transporter, Bourne, Rambo, Liu Kang, Ra's Al Ghul, Elektra.3rd Tier
Daredevil, Bond, Bond, Martin Riggs, Spock, Kirk, Beck, Mathayus, Swagger, Comedian, Rorschach, Mai Lihn, The Operative, Indiana Jones, Nemo, Quartermain, Prime, Bale Batman. Kenobi, Maul, Tam, Deathstrike, Wolf, Worf, V, Spawn, Power Rangers, Mystique and some of the other Super/metahumans may fall into this catagory as well as folks such as Achilles, Leonidas, Memnon, Croft and Zorro who are almost never with out weapons.4th Tier
Bumblebee, Triton, Picard, Kingpin, Red Grant, Cyclops.5th Tier
Darius Stone, Xander Cage, Wolverine, Sabertooth, Mal, Nomak, McClane, Thing, The Russian, Durden, Joker, Blonsky, Trinity, Morpheus, Neo, Smith, Nightcrawler, Beast, Juggernaut, Hulk, Abomination.6th Tier
Hancock, Harry Potter, Spider-man, Superman, The Goblins, Myers, Vorhees, Iron-Man.Again its a rough draft open to change based on input from others.
How is Bullseye ranked so high above a lot of other people?
Originally posted by RobtardBut speed and strength is somewhat irrelevant when fighting Agents seeing as to there stats>>>Red pills. Skill is what keeps them alive most of the time along with durabiity.
Their ability to fight and hold their own against Agents isn't due to just their skills, they also have some degree of super-human speed, agility, strength and durability(while in the Matrix). If they lacked those, the Agents would tear right through them, skills be damned.
Originally posted by Alpha CentauriI disagree, his fight with Elektra he showed some skill, enough to atleast call him trained or highly skilled.
Anyway, Bullseye is bottom if anything. He exhibited no martial arts experience in the movie.
Originally posted by Alpha CentauriCan we really attest that to being martial arts skill though? As far as martial arts I thought we were talking H2H combat.
Wade Wilson blocked machine gun bullets with swordplay. That's one of the greatest swordplay moments in movies, in terms of skill.
Originally posted by Darth Martin
But that's far better than say Stark. That shows a degree of skill.
But that wouldn't put him in a tier as high as he placed him. Everyone in the tier below him would stomp him. Transporter and Bourne would outright kill him. Being better than Stark doesn't necessarily put you in a tier above him either.
Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
ANYHOO......I take it we are now at the point where we are judging by pure martial arts skill/training, not powers?
Thats what this should be what it's judged on but I think it's popularity and how cool it looked. Nightstick placed Martin Riggs, Maul, Obi, Indy and Cyclops over Trinity and Morpheus and Neo and others. 😐