Originally posted by Blanket
He mentioned he wasn't holding back against Adam who never wanted to fight him... and then got pissed at him.Ya, you are using high showings. 😐
It's like saying that Surfer is way above everyone his level in Marvel just because he has crushed people threatening the universe/multiverse... when Surfer needed to save it.You missed da point. And no I wasn't forming an argument, it was an observation. I was saying that Black Adam also has high showings, but they're seemingly ignored, in favor of Superman's
high showingstime when he needs to shine...
Yeah, he did. And I already mentioned that him not holding back (ie. being carefull not to break something) is not the same as going all-out.
How is pointing out that on-panel Superman's mindset affects his battle performance and that he is capable of reaching levels far above his normal one while going into a motivated, all-out mode using high-showings ?
It's far from being the same thing.
No, I didn't miss the point. You don't seem to understand that I, along with a few other persons, are just pointing out how Superman's power works, depending on his mindset, while you go into a 'you're just using his high feats!' stance. I guess that just shows you missed the point.
Let's put it simply. It is a known fact that Superman, while at his normal level, is a peer with Captain Marvel/Black Adam and others. Are you arguing that when in his all-out mode, Superman doesn't increase his battle performance/powerlevel and outperforms persons who were his peers previously ?
Originally posted by Philosophíaoh?
Yeah, he did. And I already mentioned that him not holding back (ie. being carefull not to break something) is not the same as going all-out.How is pointing out that on-panel Superman's mindset affects his battle performance and that he is capable of reaching levels far above his normal one while going into a motivated, all-out mode using high-showings ?
It's far from being the same thing.No, I didn't miss the point. You don't seem to understand that I, along with a few other persons, are just pointing out how Superman's power works, depending on his mindset, while you go into a 'you're just using his high feats!' stance. I guess that just shows you missed the point.
Let's put it simply. It is a known fact that Superman, while at his normal level, is a peer with Captain Marvel/Black Adam and others. Are you arguing that when in his all-out mode, Superman doesn't increase his battle performance/powerlevel and outperforms persons who were his peers previously ?
Because you're using this 'mindset' to justify the showings that others would call high (while you're saying stuff like it being above people of his level of course)? Especially when you're using this 'mindset' to make Superman far above his peers.
"Darkseid would beat Black Adam"
"Superman beat him"
"Superman was in the zone though, irrelevant. Darkseid is far above BA"
All in all, it seems more like an attempt to not injure the rep of people Superman beat... but I digress.
Is that how his powers work in comics, or is that how his feats get justified? Because, it just seems like an excuse to explain that his feats are acceptable without calling them high, and while giving him another level of power.
Unless there's panels explaining that his powers drastically increase with his mindset, of course.
Actually, you did miss the point of what I said, btw. I was merely mentioning that BA also has high showings if we go the route of high showings. Because I'm not under the assumption that his power drastically increases... unless a comic comes along and says it, then I'll gladly accept.
Of course an all-out mode peer would beat a non-all out mode peer, and will outperform them (it's the same reason Black Adam seems above Billy). However, I would like to see his peers attempt the same stuff that supporters call impossible for them.
Also, I agree that Superman will fight better/smarter, however, I don't agree with the power level part.
Originally posted by Blanket
oh?Because you're using this 'mindset' to justify the showings that others would call high (while you're saying stuff like it being above people of his level of course)? Especially when you're using this 'mindset' to make Superman far above his peers.
"Darkseid would beat Black Adam"
"Superman beat him"
"Superman was in the zone though, irrelevant. Darkseid is far above BA"
All in all, it seems more like an attempt to not injure the rep of people Superman beat... but I digress.Is that how his powers work in comics, or is that how his feats get justified? Because, it just seems like an excuse to explain that his feats are acceptable without calling them high, and while giving him another level of power.
Unless there's panels explaining that his powers drastically increase with his mindset, of course.Actually, you did miss the point of what I said, btw. I was merely mentioning that BA also has high showings if we go the route of high showings. Because I'm not under the assumption that his power drastically increases... unless a comic comes along and says it, then I'll gladly accept.
Of course an all-out mode peer would beat a non-all out mode peer, and will outperform them (it's the same reason Black Adam seems above Billy). However, I would like to see his peers attempt the same stuff that supporters call impossible for them.
Also, I agree that Superman will fight better/smarter, however, I don't agree with the power level part.
In Apokolips Now! Darkseid specifically stated that Superman is stronger than usual. Seeing his proven dynamic powerlevel dependent on his mental state, I don't see what exactly is the problem in saying that when fighting Darkseid, Superman ups his powerlevel compared to what he is usually portrayed.
Yes, that is how his powers work. Superman was specifically shown as limiting his powerlevel to the point where he does it on a subconscious level and depending on the mindset he is in, he can go from struggling against an opponent to completly destroying the same kind of opponents en-masse, like in Our Worlds at War, where not only did he outperform the whole Justice League (Martian "He's stronger than the whole league combined!' Manhunter, Wonder Woman, Flash, Green Lantern among them) but he outperformed his previous performance aswell once he changed his mentality.
We were talking about how Superman has been shown fluctuate his powerlevel depending on his mindset, and thus Darkseid's performance against Superman shouldn't be held against him. You come in and go all 'Why is everybody using only high showings for Superman ?! LOOK, Black Adam has high showings too!!11 Why ignore them ?!' and you're telling me that I'm missing the point ? Lulz.
You don't have to agree with anything. It is stated that Superman fluctuates his powerlevel in accordance with his mental state, and shown in combat when he vastly outperforms his previous performance & the performance of his supposed peers in combat when he goes into an all-out mindset. Period.
Originally posted by Philosophía
Jesus.I said that eventough Superman calls many people his equals, when facing powerfull enemies he outperformes them and rises above his normal level, proving to be superior.
You then brought up something I said in another thread, that Captain Marvel will always be portrayed as near Superman physicall wise, in an attempt to make it seem like I'm contradicting myself when, in fact, you failed to mention that in the same post, I mentioned the exact same ideea I did here, that when faced against more powerfull opponents he rises above his normal (ie where Captain Marvel is placed at) level and outperforms any of his previous 'peers'.
And now you go 'didinotsaythesamething?' dur
You're quite the bright one, aren't you ?
1. So, your reasoning on why Superman always pulls off these things he shouldn't is because once he changes his mindset to an all out mode he over comes the odds? Interesting... explaining how he could defeat... DS, Imperiex, Mandrakk or (insert much higher being here). That is about right correct?
2. Yet, you don't think that maybe it's not him changing his mindset per se but the fact that he's DC's poster and has to win somehow. I'm unclear how you don't see that as a correlation on how he can do some of the things he can. In movies, comic book or whatever the hero is going to do stuff he really can't do or should do for the sake of the story and a good ending. Yet your discounting this and going with... well he just changes his mindset and thus he can conquer all? I'm sorry but I can't ignore common sense. Funny that you do though lol.
3. So, then by your theory... in a vs match and I put Supes going all out vs. lets say Galactus or Arishem or Tyrant or Odin or Thanos etc etc. you would then pick supes correct? As you point out, supes just has to change his mindset and he because super duper man and can make anything happen. That is your reasoning for him beating people he has no busy beating right? So, then that would apply to him fighting the above people?
Now if you say no he doesn't beat them.. well then now you get my point. You can't just say well Supes is their equal but chooses to change his mind frame and thus clearly their superior. When really on this forum in particular we factor in PIS and CIS and understand sometimes characters are given more feats and slack then others. We understand Superman is the ultimate hero and is going to win even if he shouldn't based on power sets of the people involved. Your choosing to discount this little fact and just pass it off to a different level supes. Sure, he has such a level and can and should rise to the occasion at times. Sure, he could get really pissed and trash Marvel. However, Marvel could and should also have that same ability. Point is, you can't just pass off blatant bias to a particular character or slack he's given in order to save the day and pass it off as well he just changed his mind set lol. It's like the other day when you comments on Superman 1 million and said well even though he doesn't have feats we don't need to see feats to know his power set is beyond ___ (don't remember who) Yet, with Superman and in this situation you choose to ignore supes own words and on panel evidence and go with well he just didn't change his mindset.
Marvel has shown to be supes equal time and time again. He's even shown to be his superior thanks to magic and supes own words about confrontations. Then we have someone who mops the floor with Marvel and has that same magical ability except more ruthless and you say well supes just needs to change his mind set and he's superior... Aren't you one who likes to go past the surface of things and look at exactly why these things are happening? We know Galactus power set is above Supes.. We know other characters supes beats are beyond his power set based on logic and facts. Yet you want to throw all that out the window and be like well Supes has beaten so and so and all because he changed his mindset. It couldn't possibly be that he's suppose to win and DC will make that happen despite who should win? I'm guessing you were absent when they were passing out common sense and logic. Funny how sometimes you choose to look at the bigger picture and not just feats and other times go.. look Supes feats are Th3 Ult1mat3!!!! he wins lol.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
A few questions then Philo...1. So, your reasoning on why Superman always pulls off these things he shouldn't is because once he changes his mindset to an all out mode he over comes the odds? Interesting... explaining how he could defeat... DS, Imperiex, Mandrakk or (insert much higher being here). That is about right correct?
I only read this, and realize that you are much too bright for me.
Some other time then.
Edit: I read the 'He's DC's poster boy!' ahem.. argument.. from the next paragraph aswell. Yeah, definitley too bright.
Originally posted by Philosophía
I only read this, and realize that you are much too bright for me.Some other time then.
Edit: I read the 'He's DC's poster boy!' ahem.. argument.. from the next paragraph aswell. Yeah, definitley too bright.
concession accepted. Next time try and be present when logic and common sense are given out.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
2. Yet, you don't think that maybe it's not him changing his mindset per se but the fact that he's DC's poster and has to win somehow. I'm unclear how you don't see that as a correlation on how he can do some of the things he can. In movies, comic book or whatever the hero is going to do stuff he really can't do or should do for the sake of the story and a good ending. Yet your discounting this and going with... well he just changes his mindset and thus he can conquer all? I'm sorry but I can't ignore common sense. Funny that you do though lol.
this kills your point altogether, and shows just how little superman you must actually read.
Originally posted by -Pr-
this kills your point altogether, and shows just how little superman you must actually read.
How does it kill my point?
Based on powersets and people fighting at peak levels and throwing out PIS and CIS you don't think Supes beats people he probably shouldn't in comics? Really? You think Superman being DC's poster boy and hero of the story has nothing to do with him coming out on top and beating people he probably shouldn't? This kills my whole point and this isn't the case with Superman and DC? Please, then enlighten me on how this isn't true and how it must be how little I read of superman?
Shiv, that would be relevant if it was BA vs Thor or BA vs Superman (if Superman wasn't allowed to amp), basically his peers.
It really wouldn't matter against DS seeing as he's already two or more Atons in one, and can amp other beings to higher power levels if he so chooses.
Also it should be pointed out BA's amp has limits because he derives it from another god. DS is already a god with his own power source.
Superman's power source also varies in that regard to BA's because there's no set upper limit to how much power he'll unlock (he's getting stronger as he ages).
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
A few questions then Philo...1. So, your reasoning on why Superman always pulls off these things he shouldn't is because once he changes his mindset to an all out mode he over comes the odds? Interesting... explaining how he could defeat... DS, Imperiex, Mandrakk or (insert much higher being here). That is about right correct?
2. Yet, you don't think that maybe it's not him changing his mindset per se but the fact that he's DC's poster and has to win somehow. I'm unclear how you don't see that as a correlation on how he can do some of the things he can. In movies, comic book or whatever the hero is going to do stuff he really can't do or should do for the sake of the story and a good ending. Yet your discounting this and going with... well he just changes his mindset and thus he can conquer all? I'm sorry but I can't ignore common sense. Funny that you do though lol.
3. So, then by your theory... in a vs match and I put Supes going all out vs. lets say Galactus or Arishem or Tyrant or Odin or Thanos etc etc. you would then pick supes correct? As you point out, supes just has to change his mindset and he because super duper man and can make anything happen. That is your reasoning for him beating people he has no busy beating right? So, then that would apply to him fighting the above people?
Now if you say no he doesn't beat them.. well then now you get my point. You can't just say well Supes is their equal but chooses to change his mind frame and thus clearly their superior. When really on this forum in particular we factor in PIS and CIS and understand sometimes characters are given more feats and slack then others. We understand Superman is the ultimate hero and is going to win even if he shouldn't based on power sets of the people involved. Your choosing to discount this little fact and just pass it off to a different level supes. Sure, he has such a level and can and should rise to the occasion at times. Sure, he could get really pissed and trash Marvel. However, Marvel could and should also have that same ability. Point is, you can't just pass off blatant bias to a particular character or slack he's given in order to save the day and pass it off as well he just changed his mind set lol. It's like the other day when you comments on Superman 1 million and said well even though he doesn't have feats we don't need to see feats to know his power set is beyond ___ (don't remember who) Yet, with Superman and in this situation you choose to ignore supes own words and on panel evidence and go with well he just didn't change his mindset.
Marvel has shown to be supes equal time and time again. He's even shown to be his superior thanks to magic and supes own words about confrontations. Then we have someone who mops the floor with Marvel and has that same magical ability except more ruthless and you say well supes just needs to change his mind set and he's superior... Aren't you one who likes to go past the surface of things and look at exactly why these things are happening? We know Galactus power set is above Supes.. We know other characters supes beats are beyond his power set based on logic and facts. Yet you want to throw all that out the window and be like well Supes has beaten so and so and all because he changed his mindset. It couldn't possibly be that he's suppose to win and DC will make that happen despite who should win? I'm guessing you were absent when they were passing out common sense and logic. Funny how sometimes you choose to look at the bigger picture and not just feats and other times go.. look Supes feats are Th3 Ult1mat3!!!! he wins lol.
Originally posted by Allankles
Shiv, that would be relevant if it was BA vs Thor or BA vs Superman (if Superman wasn't allowed to amp), basically his peers.It really wouldn't matter against DS seeing as he's already two or more Atons in one, and can amp other beings to higher power levels if he so chooses.
There are no limits on how many Atons BA can summon.
Black Adam can also Amp other beings to higher power levels if he chooses.
Black Adam is a herald of other gods, he doesn't own the power, he's borrowing it. And it doesn't matter how many times he can summon Aton. BA's power is limited to what Aton has and gives. And Darkseid is more powerful than Aton.
Superman has no such limits, as solar radiation (from all stars save red stars) unlock more of his power with constant exposure. Making him grow stronger with every day he's exposed to this radiation.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Ummmm nothing to do with holding back at all really. On panel words and actions prove that supes considers Marvel his equal and in some cases even talked up Marvel because of his magical abilities. So, it's not a holding back issue but that is just how DC views them, which has been shown over and over again. However, we know that BA basically owns Marvel and yet people say Supes walks through BA... the same BA who trashes Marvel and has the same magical advantage... lol right.
True statements. If anything, Marvel>Supes do to on panel statements, showing, and fights.
Superman admitted twice that he cant stand up to Captain Marvel. Superman admitted that he couldnt even move adam out of the city and that he wasnt even holding back and this was against a adam that didnt throw not one punch, just tossed superman around.
As for the fight, Darkseid wins, he should be able to tackle adam and supes at the same time and still pull a majority.