Originally posted by truejediI'm going to go out on a limb and say the poorly constructed battle droids (lack of supervision on the assembly line, lack of checking for product quality: see, C3po's head on one, no one catches it.) The droids all mal-function before Luke dies.
We are talking extreme victory conditions. I merely don't think Luke is going to die in this situation. If nothing else, he can do the thing where he changes his face, and the droids, trying to target luke, won't know who he is.
naw, they malfunction. 😄
Well, if you think that Luke > all regular battle droids, then:
Originally posted by truejediWhat? I don't see your point here.
Why can't he beat the 501st? My point was that all regular battle droids > 501st.
Originally posted by truejediThey are efficient. They have been ordered to win this battle. They weren't too polite to senator Bail Organa when they were ordered no witnesses. Saying the 501st won't do this when it will most certainly give them the battle is a false statement.
And it wouldn't be a matter of the Jedi falling for it. They would have no choice. The sooner they attack, the less native populous dies, even if the jedi are wiped out. They are Jedi. They would know its a trap, and they would be forced to do it anyway.
Sounds nice, but generally in the vs. thread, we deal with fights, not run and hide scenarios. Running and hiding is a different matter entirely. If it was the Jedi hunting clones, the Jedi would be dying. So the Jedi run and hide, i repeat,the clones park in a freaking field where they have a tactical advantage and wait. They aren't stupid. So the Jedi decide not to come to them, they kill people till they do. Jedi try to save them, they die, the end.
First of all, I don't think that the jedi would come and try to rescue citizens if they know that they'll lose. Because if they do, then the ENIRE jedi order (since this is all of the NJO) dies, the hostages die anyway, and the sith come and take over. Which is far worse than a few hostages dying. I think that Luke said somewhere that he recognizes instances in which the ends DO justify the means.
And I specified in the OP that guerrilla tactics are allowed. And no, guerrilla warfare is a legitimate type of warfare, so yes it isn't just running and hiding it's attacking, running, hiding, attacking, etc.
Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
most jedi dont move faster then the eye can see. so yeah thats pretty much the end of that. 😐in fact that reason why luke is considered to be so badass in DE is because he was "moving faster then the eye could see", essentially just a blur. that was considered soemthing highly impresive for jedi because their physical bodies dont tend to move that fast.
they did. hence why two jedi masters were killed with no hope of survival despite them trying to defend themselves, by a couple of battledroids armed with shotguns. [/QUOTE] I don't know anything about this.
Originally posted by ~:Mr.Anderson:~
[B]true that, but at the effective lethal range of a shotgun, one could still use telekenesis to disarm you.
the affective lethal range of a mossberg 500 12 gauge is almost 200 feet... almost the length of a football field. honestly how many average level jedi masters have we seen snatching a weapon from someone 200 feet away?
I don't know anything about this.
read page 7. ^^
Originally posted by truejedi
[B]well, it was 6 on 2, not 2 on 2, thats one thing there.and Assajji Ventress WAS in the room with the Jedi masters. Give me the death of the guy. Ventress killed him.
ventress didnt enter the room until after all the droids were destroyed and the two masters were on the floor in a puddle of blood. she just finished them off.
she was in another area of the station chasing after yoda.
One other thing i was looking for, there was something in the beginning about the Jedi being careful to protect the civilians or something like that.
Twin blades of light appeared as Master Maruk and Master Leem swept out their lightsabers, ready to deflect the battle droids' blaster bolts. So much for disguise, Jai Maruk thought. "DO NOT PANIC," he bellowed, drawing the Force into his voice so it lashed out in a tone of absolute command. Right now, the civilians could be as dangerous to themselves as could the battle droids, depending on exactly what this little welcoming party was here for. A Dooku double cross, or just plain bad luck? "KEEP DOWN AND HEAD FOR THE EXITS." The terrified throng, held in some semblance of order by the force of his will, bent low and hurried like spider-roaches for the sides of the big main gallery, disappearing into duty-free gift shops, running for the turbolifts, or crushing into the refresher stations, searching for someplace to hide. Six of the battle droids flanked out, knocking bodies out of their way, to take up crossfire positions on him and Master Leem. "Ohma-D'un super battle droids?" she asked. Jai Maruk shook his head. "Confederacy assassin droids," he bellowed, shouting to be heard over the din.
the civilians never actively got in the way. the droids rolled up and the two masters immediately took up battle positions. they werent ambushed or distracted... if thats what you were thinking.
notice also that the jedis first instinct is to parry the enemies shots not take their guns away.
Thank you tho for tracking down the source, if you PM'd that link to me, that'd be great. Source material always beats knowing you read something once!
yeah no problem.
sending the pm to you now. ^^'
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Well, if you think that Luke > all regular battle droids, then:
Not in an open fire-fight though. I've already explained the circumstances in which he is untouchable.
Why can't he beat the 501st? My point was that all regular battle droids > 501st.
In an open fire-fight, yes. But with luke and the droids it wouldn't be. In a fight with the clones, luke would be forced to take a more active role in protecting other Jedi, and there would be more blaster bolts flying around, multiplying the dangers that luke is going to faced, instead of what he would face when surrounded by a bunch of confused battle droids that aren't firing,because they don't have a target.
I think i went into more detail about that earlier.
First of all, I don't think that the jedi would come and try to rescue citizens if they know that they'll lose. Because if they do, then the ENIRE jedi order (since this is all of the NJO) dies, the hostages die anyway, and the sith come and take over.
Not fair to change the stakes now! 😠 If the Jedi were trying to keep the SITH from taking over the planet, yes, its a whole different story.
If THEY are the only danger to the population (because of the actions of the 501st) as laid out in the original thread, the Jedi charge the clones.
Which is far worse than a few hostages dying. I think that Luke said somewhere that he recognizes instances in which the ends DO justify the means.
Yes, of COURSE if this was anything more than a battle! But you put the fight in a bubble, win the fight, the actions over, you going all crazy-like and changing it up now!
And I specified in the OP that guerrilla tactics are allowed. And no, guerrilla warfare is a legitimate type of warfare, so yes it isn't just running and hiding it's attacking, running, hiding, attacking, etc.
In your new set of circumstances, they would totally do guerrilla warfare, and then I pick the Jedi, but in your original circumstances, my scenario plays itself out.
Originally posted by truejedi
Not in an open fire-fight though. I've already explained the circumstances in which he is untouchable.In an open fire-fight, yes. But with luke and the droids it wouldn't be. In a fight with the clones, luke would be forced to take a more active role in protecting other Jedi, and there would be more blaster bolts flying around, multiplying the dangers that luke is going to faced, instead of what he would face when surrounded by a bunch of confused battle droids that aren't firing,because they don't have a target.
I think i went into more detail about that earlier.
[/B]
YOu never said a word about the Sith, you said it was the 501st against the Jedi. You can't change the thread this late in the game. In the scenario you laid out, the 501st would have no reason to kill all the hostages as the battle would be over.Not fair to change the stakes now! 😠 If the Jedi were trying to keep the SITH from taking over the planet, yes, its a whole different story.
If THEY are the only danger to the population (because of the actions of the 501st) as laid out in the original thread, the Jedi charge the clones.
[/B]
Yes, of COURSE if this was anything more than a battle! But you put the fight in a bubble, win the fight, the actions over, you going all crazy-like and changing it up now!
In your new set of circumstances, they would totally do guerrilla warfare, and then I pick the Jedi, but in your original circumstances, my scenario plays itself out. [/B]
HWKO is famous for this mid-thread gimping...
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
The word 'Sith' in that sentence can just as easily be replaced with Republican. Or 'wacko liberal' to taste.It wasn't an actual argument. 😐
The smilie in your post suggests you knew that but you weren't here for the VS Earth fiasco and don't know the subtext?
Well, I, to be honest was just confused about the mid-thread change of the stakes, What was the Vs. Earth fiasco?
About the "sith" statement.
What I meant that is since this is the entire NJO fighting here, if they die then the ENIRE order dies, since the entire order is fighting. And if there aren't any jedi, than Krayt's one sith empire will have a much easier time of taking over. Or the one sith tribe will have already acomplished a major part of their goat, albeit they didn't really "accomplish" it, the clones did. And even if it weren't sith, the absence of jedi would cause a great spike in crimes/unrest, without the jedi order's peacekeeping role. So, in other words, the destruction of the NJO would cost much more lives than a few hostages. The hostages would end up dying either way, but at least in the second way the jedi survive to help another day.
And oh yeah, notice how some of you (not True Jedi, he actually responded to my other stuff) ignored the most important parts and just focused on one word?
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Guerrilla warfare. Each jedi will have to take about 50 clones, which isn't that lopsided given that it doesn't have to be 50 all at once.
It's not lopsided to assume that an average Jedi can take down an elite clone trooper, a type of soldier that's genetically identical to the next? Leaving no room for a "weak or strong troop" like with the Jedi, who's power differ on a drastic level? I'm not sure how you plan on explaining how a single Jedi can take down fifty clone troopers - individually or otherwise, when not all Jedi are alike. We've seen some Jedi headbutted by non-Force sensitives. The truth of the matter is, most Jedi are average fighters at best. There happens to be a small minority that we see who are powerful, but they are few and far between in actuality.
The clone troopers are more well trained and equipped for a war with the New Jedi Order. For example, they have the advantage of technology. They have communications systems between themselves, armor that allows them to see through fog or other visual impairments, ranged weaponry that can kill the Jedi from a safe distance, and they even have medical kits!
Another point is that most Jedi aren't trained for the reflection or redirection of blaster bolts, so they certainly aren't at an advantage as a whole in personal combat against the 501st.
Guerrilla warfare leaves room for counterinsurgency techniques that the 501st have been trained in, too. The Jedi run the risk of being caught and being subject to interrogation, giving up important, tactical information - through means of torture or otherwise. Since the Jedi will be utilizing "hit-and-run" tactics, it isn't exactly in their best interests to stop and fight a full-fledged battle to save one of their own.
And oh yeah, notice how some of you (not True Jedi, he actually responded to my other stuff) ignored the most important parts and just focused on one word?
And oh yeah, notice how I stood up for you by focusing on one word instead of being passive aggressive (badly) and bitchy?
See how that works?
What you need to understand is that not everyone is taking part in this debate. Those not actively debating are not prohibited from posting nor required to address entire posts if they do. Grow up and stop trying for sympathy. You aren't going to get any- not after the way you've behaved.
Originally posted by Advent
It's not lopsided to assume that an average Jedi can take down an elite clone trooper, a type of soldier that's genetically identical to the next? Leaving no room for a "weak or strong troop" like with the Jedi, who's power differ on a drastic level? I'm not sure how you plan on explaining how a single Jedi can take down fifty clone troopers - individually or otherwise, when not all Jedi are alike.
In no way am I saying that each jedi will take 50 clones. Some (like Luke) would take hundreds (not at once, though) and others would take 10. But the point is that mathematically if we assume that the NJO is about 200 jedi and the 501st has about 10,000 troops, then on average each jedi will have to take 50 troops. It isn't really all that hard to understand.
Originally posted by Advent
. We've seen some Jedi headbutted by non-Force sensitives. The truth of the matter is, most Jedi are average fighters at best. There happens to be a small minority that we see who are powerful, but they are few and far between in actuality.
Jedi do vary greatly in power, but what do you mean by "average"? Most jedi are definitely above the average clone, who are in turn above the average soldier. So no, most jedi aren't force uber pwning gods, but they are still powerful.
Originally posted by Advent
They have communications systems between themselves,
The jedi have comlinks as well, and they can sort of communicate through the force.
The jedi aren't primitive, you know:
They have lightsabers, and lightsabers are pretty high tech weapons.
The medical lab in the jedi temple has lots of advanced medical equipment.
The jedi temple is made using modern (by Star Wars standards) materials and equipment.
Jedi use comlinks, blasters, vac suits, etc.
So no, these aren't like some warrior castes still surviving today that use primitive weapons/tech. They are perfectly up to date with technology.
Originally posted by AdventAnother point is that most Jedi aren't trained for the reflection or redirection of blaster bolts, so they certainly aren't at an advantage as a whole in personal combat against the 501st.
Actually, jedi ARE trained universally to deflect blaster bolts. In AOTC, you see YOUNGLINGS practicing deflecting bolts WHILE BE BLINDED! In ANH, one of the first things that Luke learned was how to deflect blaster bolts. I know that these aren't examples from the NJO, but the NJO also taught newbies to deflect bolts: Corran Horn was practicing deflecting bolts in I, Jedi when he just became a jedi. Have you ever seen a jedi that is completely incapable of deflecting blaster bolts? Sure, some (Obi Wan) are better than others (Trebor), but they all CAN and are trained to.
So yes, deflecting/reflecting/redirecting blaster bolts is like jedi 101.
Originally posted by AdventGuerrilla warfare leaves room for counterinsurgency techniques that the 501st have been trained in, too.
Yes, but since the 501st has the firepower advantage here, they probably wouldn't use guerrilla warfare. And although they were probably trained in counterinsurgency tactics, the training probably assumed that your enemy couldn't move stuff with their mind, redirect the clones' blaster bolts, or anticipate the clones' movements.
Originally posted by Advent
The Jedi run the risk of being caught and being subject to interrogation, giving up important, tactical information - through means of torture or otherwise.
Yeah, and when you walk down the street, you run the risk of tripping and falling on your head.
Originally posted by Advent
Since the Jedi will be utilizing "hit-and-run" tactics, it isn't exactly in their best interests to stop and fight a full-fledged battle to save one of their own.
Agreed...I don't get what you're trying to say with this statement.
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
And oh yeah, notice how I stood up for you by focusing on one word instead of being passive aggressive (badly) and bitchy?See how that works?
What you need to understand is that not everyone is taking part in this debate. Those not actively debating are not prohibited from posting nor required to address entire posts if they do. Grow up and stop trying for sympathy. You aren't going to get any- not after the way you've behaved.
I understand that. And there's nothing wrong with only responding to small sections if you're just a "bystander". But the thing that annoys me is how you (well, not only you) EXAGGERATE the importance of that one word and go on and on about that and how I twist the thread blah blah blah. Can you just please not do that?
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
In no way am I saying that each jedi will take 50 clones. Some (like Luke) would take hundreds (not at once, though) and others would take 10. But the point is that mathematically if we assume that the NJO is about 200 jedi and the 501st has about 10,000 troops, then on average each jedi will have to take 50 troops. It isn't really all that hard to understand.
No one said it was difficult to understand, but you're begging the question. Instead of repeat your inane claims over and over, provide some substance to them; the Jedi can't beat the clones just because you say-so.
Jedi do vary greatly in power, but what do you mean by "average"? Most jedi are definitely above the average clone, who are in turn above the average soldier. So no, most jedi aren't force uber pwning gods, but they are still powerful.
"Most Jedi are above the average clone" - Your say-so doesn't constitute proof. Who are "most Jedi", and do these include the some 200 we saw fall like snowflakes on Geonosis by ranged weaponry?
"Most Jedi are still powerful" - Just because you say it, doesn't make it true. Most Jedi are powerful in comparison to whom, exactly? We've seen Jedi headbutted at close range by people like Jango Fett, who happened to be the genetic template and training overseer of the clones.
Your assertion assumes that the majority of Jedi are "powerful" in a combat sense. This holds far from true, and if it is true, then prove up. The majority are not anywhere as strong as the minority. Jedi Council members were slain during Order 66 from relatively small groups of troopers (Ki-Adi-Mundi for example tried to fight back), and according to BioWare's upcoming MMORPG, Star Wars: The Old Republic, non-Force sensitives can be more than a match for average Jedi or Sith, which makes up the majority of the any Jedi Order.
The jedi have comlinks as well, and they can sort of communicate through the force.The jedi aren't primitive, you know:
They have lightsabers, and lightsabers are pretty high tech weapons.
The medical lab in the jedi temple has lots of advanced medical equipment.
The jedi temple is made using modern (by Star Wars standards) materials and equipment.
Jedi use comlinks, blasters, vac suits, etc.So no, these aren't like some warrior castes still surviving today that use primitive weapons/tech. They are perfectly up to date with technology.
Did anyone say they were primitive? They didn't. What was said was that the clones have the advantage of technology in this fight, and that's absolutely true. I'm not sure how the Jedi temple is relevant whatsoever to a battle on a completely different planet.
Actually, jedi ARE trained universally to deflect blaster bolts. In AOTC, you see YOUNGLINGS practicing deflecting bolts WHILE BE BLINDED! In ANH, one of the first things that Luke learned was how to deflect blaster bolts. I know that these aren't examples from the NJO, but the NJO also taught newbies to deflect bolts: Corran Horn was practicing deflecting bolts in I, Jedi when he just became a jedi. Have you ever seen a jedi that is completely incapable of deflecting blaster bolts? Sure, some (Obi Wan) are better than others (Trebor), but they all CAN and are trained to.So yes, deflecting/reflecting/redirecting blaster bolts is like jedi 101.
Are you being intentionally dense? I never said they weren't trained for deflection,
Originally posted by Advent
Another point is that most Jedi aren't trained for the reflection or redirection of blaster bolts, so they certainly aren't at an advantage as a whole in personal combat against the 501st.
Deflection is certainly different than reflection or redirecting the bolt back towards the gun user. And Jedi are not trained traditionally for redirection. Meaning they have no means of ranged attacks if the clones maintain a distance between themselves.
Yes, but since the 501st has the firepower advantage here, they probably wouldn't use guerrilla warfare.
That's a good idea! Don't use counterinsurgency tactics when you are up against guerrilla warfare! That's ridiculous - superior firepower only means they'd excel at using or repelling guerrilla fighting.
And although they were probably trained in counterinsurgency tactics, the training probably assumed that your enemy couldn't move stuff with their mind, redirect the clones' blaster bolts, or anticipate the clones' movements.
And I doubt very much that the Jedi's training was operating under the idea that they'd be fighting a war against genetically identical clone troopers...that is to say, you don't have a point.
Firstly, being a Jedi doesn't mean you're skilled enough with telekinesis to defeat enemy combatants, indeed, did we see what happened to the Jedi throughout the Clone Wars and Order 66 in both the highest form of canon and the animated shows?
Secondly, saying the Jedi can "redirect" because they can deflect is a baseless assumption. Put up or shut up.
Thirdly, Jedi's foresight is limited and clearly doesn't stop them from getting killed since Jedi are not invincible.
Fourthly, while some Jedi may excel in these individuals fields, there's nothing to suggest that the majority does. In that case, you'll need to prove how a handful of Jedi can defeat the greatest fighting force with guerrilla warfare.
Yeah, and when you walk down the street, you run the risk of tripping and falling on your head.
Irrelevant. Gaining prisoners is the first thing the clones should be doing. You not only gain intelligence on the enemy's operations, such as where they are located, what they are planning, etc., giving an enormous advantage to your side, but you also get a bargaining chip since the Jedi are concerned about life.
Ignoring something doesn't make it any less valid.
Agreed...I don't get what you're trying to say with this statement.
Then I question your comprehension ability since the relevance to that was literally the sentence before it. Try reading it with your spectacles equipped:
Originally posted by Advent
The Jedi run the risk of being caught and being subject to interrogation, giving up important, tactical information - through means of torture or otherwise. Since the Jedi will be utilizing "hit-and-run" tactics, it isn't exactly in their best interests to stop and fight a full-fledged battle to save one of their own.
In other words, if the clones capture a Jedi, the Jedi will not try to get that captive back.